A vanilla thief does benefit from Dual-classing as they reach their effective potential at about 13 with 5x BS and plenty of points to cover all the important areas...I'd also include swashbucklers as well since their perks are lack luster and don't progress fast enough, but do bring some nice benefit for dipping for another class.
Bounty hunter and Assassins however make excellent single class thieves.
Bounty hunters (dwarves (potential regeneration, best saves) or gnomes (no real disadvantage but overall less awesome then a dwarf) recommended for awesome racial thief mods) go from simply awesome to brokenly powerful once they hit 21+ and get their maze trap (16-21 though is a bit hard as their specialty trap for that level sucks). Their slightly slower skill gain means they need to spend a little bit more time to cover their bases (though they at least get a bonus to setting traps), and are otherwise just like a vanilla thief. The main difference is maze traps allow you to fight completely on your own terms...get ambushed? Run away, throw a maze trap, and ready yourself for battle, maybe setting a normal or epic trap here or there, and then simply waiting for the enemies to return..in order of intelligence...bwahaha. And pre-16, their thrown trap is pretty much a poor man's fireball with an extra status effect attached, so they're fairly powerful at the early game as well, only held back by low trap usage numbers which at higher levels becomes less and less an issue. That 16-21 is really the only hard part about a bounty hunter and your 5x BS can usually see you through till 21. Not discounting the snares all thieves get either, which coincidentally got a major power boost at level 16, they're just a little harder to use since they can't be thrown and you need to lure enemies into them, making it more difficult to hit multiple enemies.
Assassins (Half-Orcs make great BG1 assassins, the 19 starting strength (and potential for regeneration) really helps offset their otherwise frailty and makes even low level backstabs HURT..though by the end of the game anyone but a halfling will be just as good overall (the difference between 19 and 20 str is +1 damage and some more weight) (Dwarves are a close 2nd due to awesome saves and more leinate skill spread, but the half-orc will have slightly better hide/MS which is what this kit needs most of all) on the other hand get a pretty massive skill penalty and no bonus's to hide/MS so they tend to have to focus on hiding/MS and maybe one other ability (making them unsuited for skill dipping). They get a +1 hit/damage which is multiplied by their backstab modifer which is a nice little perk (they eventually hit x7 backstab, but don't get BS increases any faster then a normal thief..it merely continues to increase after x5). Their poison weapon ability is also surprisingly nice with multi-attack weapons, especially if you use darts (Crimson Dart or Tuigan bow in the sequel as well). The damage it deals scales up slightly every 3 levels, and it can easily lock down an entire encounter in hit reactions if you swap targets every shot. The poison is also apparently multiplied somehow on a backstab, as I've noticed my back stabs hitting for ridiculous amounts of damage if poison weapon is active, even at low BS modifers.
Assassin though are a bit disappointing some ways...a lot of powerful enemies in the sequel tend to be immune to backstab which is who you'd probably want to soften up with it...leaving you with mook mages or maybe a cleric that could just as easily die to a 4-5X backstab with a decent weapon.
In short, the Bounty hunter is the best overall thief for a single class. The assassin is ok...but can't really be used to it's fullest since any enemy that can ignore stealth/invisibility can't be backstabbed, except Kua-tuo..which just aren't worth the effort of setting up a BS on on ( have to distract them THEN go in the for the backstab...but they die so fast...)
Try a variety of different weapons...they tend to be immune to piercing and/or missile damage if memory serves, and some have various resistance to elements or generic magic. Though I've never had any trouble with blunt or slashing during solo games, so..probably those two.
Well... Okay, my bad. I don't have problem with killing... My problem is that when I kill slime it just divides into two of the same kind. How can I prevent that? Heard that there is something that can be killed just by acid or fire. Is this similar case and maybe electricity is needed?
I think you have to kill them with fire....maybe cold....I don't remember that being an problem and I'm usually using the Varsona (+1 cold damage) unless my PC can't use longswords.
Re clerics and druids you write: "In a fight, they are pretty much on par with the thief class"
In my experience clerics and druids are very much better than thieves in a fight. For instance they can wear the best armor. With a strenght artifact they can tank with the best.
Except that the dwarves get a better spread of thief skills (well, in the important ones anyway), that causes them to be equal to a gnome (gnomes are spread thinner, and while they do get a little bit in everything, the dwarf out does them in the ones that matter, meaning more points to spare to put else where), even if they maintain a 1 dex advantage (and the dwarves have the best saves of all the shorties + the chance for regen which is what puts them ahead of the gnome).
(despite their higher dex, elves have crappy thief mods...only 15 (including a negative to open locks) total, Half elves also only get 15 total, most of which is in pickpockets and lack the bonus dex, instead of the 40 dwarves/gnomes/halfings get.)
Halflings are the only race that can out do the dwarf in terms of overall thief skills (extra dex AND 40 mod, but it's heavily focus in stealth and pickpocket), but their save bonus is less, they can't get regen, AND they suffer a str penalty which makes them crappy at backstabbing despite having an easier time hiding. Half-orcs get no racial thief bonuses at all (same for humans), but their much higher str and potential for regen make them good at the early game, but once a dwarf hits 19 str, they're MUCH better due to superior skills and saves (the half-orc going to 20 str would give a +1 damage and little bit more weight...but at the cost of +5 skill points per ability (Open locks, Find traps, set traps, detect illusion), even with a +1 dex advantage and A LOT of lost bonus to saves)
This may have been answered before, but in BGEE, will a dual classed Fighter/Cleric be able to continue to add weapon proficiency towards grand mastery once he reverts back to being a Fighter?
I'm trying to build a dual-wielding elf or human thief. Is the swashbuckler kit good? I don't really understand backstabbing since some people said that it's different from sneak attacks in NWN. Can anybody explain? I'm also not a stealthy type person so I'll probably multiclass to something useful when I either max out open locks, pickpocket, detect trap or get to level 10(Is that even possible? I hear there's an XP cap). Can anybody recommend stuff to me?
My other option is a bounty hunter and multiclass early to fighter or something.
Well, to backstab in AD&D2nd, you have to be behind them (not just 'flanking' or whatever crap 3E does) and either stealthed or invisible. As you get close to someone your chances of remaining in stealth drop drastically, so you need to be quick with it.
Then you get an attack roll (with a bonus) and if you hit, your do damage times a multiplier, which is based on your level (and/or kit).
You don't really 'max' out thief skills, although they do reach a point of being mostly worthless in BG1/2. For example I believe 100 in Find Traps detects any traps in the non-modded games? Same kind of thing with Open Locks.
Multiclass is completely different in AD&D vs 3E. Too much so to explain here really, I think the manual would be a better place to start then come back with specific questions. Also, dual class is something else completely again, so make sure you understand each.
Basically, I want a dual-wielding fighter that have thieving skills. I'm thinking of dual-classing this one. I can't decide whether to go Swashbuckler/Bounty Hunter->Fighter or go Berserker->Thief. I want to have a grandmaster proficiency with a weapon but as you can tell, I can't decide what to do. DX
Hide, Move silently, and pickpocket are the only skills that benefit from beyond 100.
There's several locks/traps in Durlag's tower that require 100 to open/disarm (and BG2 only has a single lock and trap requiring 100, the rest only need about 80 in each). Detect Illusion 100 (the skill rank is the % chance it works per round) is an infinite use, at will true-sight. Set traps rank is also the % chance it works, so above 100 isn't needed.
Well, if you want to mostly be a fighter but have some thieving skills, I'd say dual class from Swashbuckler to Fighter.
Swasbucklers can put some serious points in dual wielding and you can get a jump start on some weapon skills. Like, you could work on dual wielding mostly but grab a rank of longsword. Then when you dual class you could grab axes or flails or something. Then when your fighter levels have caught up to your Swashbuckler levels you could keep putting points in whatever it was you started as a Swashbuckler. You'd get a bit of variety for weapons.
For Thieving Skills, you'll wanna focus on Detect Traps, Open Locks, and then Detect Illusions if you're not quite ready to switch to fighter yet.
1) There are no good alternatives to a thief disarming a trap. You can ignore the trap and tromp over it or you can disarm it.
2) Locks can be smashed open or have the Knock spell cast on them. BUT there's a super valuable gem available in Candlekeep in a tightly locked dresser, so you might wanna throw all your points into open locks at the start and hope it's enough.
3) Detect Illusions is gravy. Super Delicious Gravy, but gravy none the less. So your call if it's worth it to take it.
Unless they changed the lockpick threshold, only a max dex dwarf/halfing with all starting points in Open locks can get the gem. The halfing never fails, the dwarf occasionally fails (might take an attempt or 3), and the gnome is 5 points less then the dwarf and never succeeds...no one else comes close.
tutu also messed with the open lock threshhold. You could open it with 50 open lock in tutu, it requires a minimum of 60 to even have a chance in BG1 (and BG:EE)
For testing purposes she has 18 str, dex, int, and con. Putting every point in Open Locks gave me 65 and I opened every locked container on the second floor of the Candlekeep Inn in one try.
I also had two proficiency points for weapons and I could put two points in Longswords or Two Weapon Style. I mention this just for planning purposes for anyone interested.
Why 18 int? I also tried a human swashbuckler(trying to kill that wizard guy) with 60 Open locks with similar stats minus the 18 int. Opened the container mostly on the first try sometimes two and rarely three.
Also, does proficiency points carry over when you dual class or are they 'erased' until your second class catches up? If it doesnt, then there will be 'overrides' right? Can somebody explain? I also don't understand how CON and STR will work on a thief/fighter dual class.
Why? Because why not? XD I just threw points into all the important stuff because I had the points to do so using WIS and CHA as dump stats.
They carry over once you catch up but they don't stack with the points spent when you dual class.
So, let's say you put two dots in Longswords then dual class to a fighter and put two more dots in longswords. You don't get 4 dots in longswords. You basicly lose 2 dots. That's how I understand it anyway.
So let's say you roll a Swashbuckler and put 2 dots in longsword and another 2 dots in Two Weapon Style over the course of leveling up. When you dual class to Fighter, you'll want to put points into other weapons until you Catch Up. Then you can finish maxing out dual wielding and longswords to go with the axe skill you've been developing. You can use a shield even without Sword and Shield style, which is generally considered to not be worth it, so you're not losing much by putting a pin in Dual Wielding while leveling up fighter til you get your thief stuff back.
Meh, I'll just go kensai/thief. XD I'm planning to dual-class at 13, which means I will have 8 points of proficiency points to spend. Should I spend 5 in one weapon and 3 on another or should I divide them equally between two weapons(4 each)?
If I start with Strength 18/99 and then increase to strength 19 - is it the same as starting with strength 18/00 and increasing to 19, when I'm at 19? Or are there permanent added benefits when starting with strength 18/00?
I should know this, I've been blundering about in both games for long enough but, is there a way for you to dodge incoming ranged attacks?
Fighting two ankhegs at once I noticed one of them continuously targeting Imoen from range, despite the fact I had a couple of other NPC close in trying to distract its attention away from her. No matter where I moved her she got smacked. I know it's all to do with the dice rolls but I'm finding this particular inability to dodge a ranged attack you can see coming a bit of an immersion breaking thing. Should this improve as you level up?
Nope...it's all on a roll of the dice. The only exception is if someone chucks a fireball, if you're hasted and/or close to the blast radius you can sometimes duck out of it before it lands. Your natural agility was already taken into account for the AC roll so if it hits, you didn't dodge, no matter what it looks like you may have done.
Ankhegs actually have it in their AI to target ranged and casters before other enemies. You have to keep them way out of range for it to go after a melee target. They're surprisingly tactically minded for giant cockroaches.
Ankhegs actually have it in their AI to target ranged and casters before other enemies. You have to keep them way out of range for it to go after a melee target. They're surprisingly tactically minded for giant cockroaches.
They are aren't they! I figured she was getting targeted rather than my Charname as I had her let off a wand of magic missiles at it, it obviously wanted to get its own back on her!
Though there does seem to be a flaw in the game, for some reason the game only recognizes weapons +2 or better +1 dosen't show up and even with +2 it only takes 1 off your thac0 minus other factors
Comments
Bounty hunter and Assassins however make excellent single class thieves.
Bounty hunters (dwarves (potential regeneration, best saves) or gnomes (no real disadvantage but overall less awesome then a dwarf) recommended for awesome racial thief mods) go from simply awesome to brokenly powerful once they hit 21+ and get their maze trap (16-21 though is a bit hard as their specialty trap for that level sucks). Their slightly slower skill gain means they need to spend a little bit more time to cover their bases (though they at least get a bonus to setting traps), and are otherwise just like a vanilla thief. The main difference is maze traps allow you to fight completely on your own terms...get ambushed? Run away, throw a maze trap, and ready yourself for battle, maybe setting a normal or epic trap here or there, and then simply waiting for the enemies to return..in order of intelligence...bwahaha. And pre-16, their thrown trap is pretty much a poor man's fireball with an extra status effect attached, so they're fairly powerful at the early game as well, only held back by low trap usage numbers which at higher levels becomes less and less an issue. That 16-21 is really the only hard part about a bounty hunter and your 5x BS can usually see you through till 21. Not discounting the snares all thieves get either, which coincidentally got a major power boost at level 16, they're just a little harder to use since they can't be thrown and you need to lure enemies into them, making it more difficult to hit multiple enemies.
Assassins (Half-Orcs make great BG1 assassins, the 19 starting strength (and potential for regeneration) really helps offset their otherwise frailty and makes even low level backstabs HURT..though by the end of the game anyone but a halfling will be just as good overall (the difference between 19 and 20 str is +1 damage and some more weight) (Dwarves are a close 2nd due to awesome saves and more leinate skill spread, but the half-orc will have slightly better hide/MS which is what this kit needs most of all) on the other hand get a pretty massive skill penalty and no bonus's to hide/MS so they tend to have to focus on hiding/MS and maybe one other ability (making them unsuited for skill dipping). They get a +1 hit/damage which is multiplied by their backstab modifer which is a nice little perk (they eventually hit x7 backstab, but don't get BS increases any faster then a normal thief..it merely continues to increase after x5). Their poison weapon ability is also surprisingly nice with multi-attack weapons, especially if you use darts (Crimson Dart or Tuigan bow in the sequel as well). The damage it deals scales up slightly every 3 levels, and it can easily lock down an entire encounter in hit reactions if you swap targets every shot. The poison is also apparently multiplied somehow on a backstab, as I've noticed my back stabs hitting for ridiculous amounts of damage if poison weapon is active, even at low BS modifers.
Assassin though are a bit disappointing some ways...a lot of powerful enemies in the sequel tend to be immune to backstab which is who you'd probably want to soften up with it...leaving you with mook mages or maybe a cleric that could just as easily die to a 4-5X backstab with a decent weapon.
In short, the Bounty hunter is the best overall thief for a single class. The assassin is ok...but can't really be used to it's fullest since any enemy that can ignore stealth/invisibility can't be backstabbed, except Kua-tuo..which just aren't worth the effort of setting up a BS on on ( have to distract them THEN go in the for the backstab...but they die so fast...)
Re clerics and druids you write:
"In a fight, they are pretty much on par with the thief class"
In my experience clerics and druids are very much better than thieves in a fight. For instance they can wear the best armor. With a strenght artifact they can tank with the best.
(despite their higher dex, elves have crappy thief mods...only 15 (including a negative to open locks) total, Half elves also only get 15 total, most of which is in pickpockets and lack the bonus dex, instead of the 40 dwarves/gnomes/halfings get.)
Halflings are the only race that can out do the dwarf in terms of overall thief skills (extra dex AND 40 mod, but it's heavily focus in stealth and pickpocket), but their save bonus is less, they can't get regen, AND they suffer a str penalty which makes them crappy at backstabbing despite having an easier time hiding. Half-orcs get no racial thief bonuses at all (same for humans), but their much higher str and potential for regen make them good at the early game, but once a dwarf hits 19 str, they're MUCH better due to superior skills and saves (the half-orc going to 20 str would give a +1 damage and little bit more weight...but at the cost of +5 skill points per ability (Open locks, Find traps, set traps, detect illusion), even with a +1 dex advantage and A LOT of lost bonus to saves)
My other option is a bounty hunter and multiclass early to fighter or something.
Then you get an attack roll (with a bonus) and if you hit, your do damage times a multiplier, which is based on your level (and/or kit).
You don't really 'max' out thief skills, although they do reach a point of being mostly worthless in BG1/2. For example I believe 100 in Find Traps detects any traps in the non-modded games? Same kind of thing with Open Locks.
Multiclass is completely different in AD&D vs 3E. Too much so to explain here really, I think the manual would be a better place to start then come back with specific questions. Also, dual class is something else completely again, so make sure you understand each.
There's several locks/traps in Durlag's tower that require 100 to open/disarm (and BG2 only has a single lock and trap requiring 100, the rest only need about 80 in each). Detect Illusion 100 (the skill rank is the % chance it works per round) is an infinite use, at will true-sight. Set traps rank is also the % chance it works, so above 100 isn't needed.
Swasbucklers can put some serious points in dual wielding and you can get a jump start on some weapon skills. Like, you could work on dual wielding mostly but grab a rank of longsword. Then when you dual class you could grab axes or flails or something. Then when your fighter levels have caught up to your Swashbuckler levels you could keep putting points in whatever it was you started as a Swashbuckler. You'd get a bit of variety for weapons.
For Thieving Skills, you'll wanna focus on Detect Traps, Open Locks, and then Detect Illusions if you're not quite ready to switch to fighter yet.
1) There are no good alternatives to a thief disarming a trap. You can ignore the trap and tromp over it or you can disarm it.
2) Locks can be smashed open or have the Knock spell cast on them. BUT there's a super valuable gem available in Candlekeep in a tightly locked dresser, so you might wanna throw all your points into open locks at the start and hope it's enough.
3) Detect Illusions is gravy. Super Delicious Gravy, but gravy none the less. So your call if it's worth it to take it.
For testing purposes she has 18 str, dex, int, and con. Putting every point in Open Locks gave me 65 and I opened every locked container on the second floor of the Candlekeep Inn in one try.
I also had two proficiency points for weapons and I could put two points in Longswords or Two Weapon Style. I mention this just for planning purposes for anyone interested.
Also, does proficiency points carry over when you dual class or are they 'erased' until your second class catches up? If it doesnt, then there will be 'overrides' right? Can somebody explain? I also don't understand how CON and STR will work on a thief/fighter dual class.
They carry over once you catch up but they don't stack with the points spent when you dual class.
So, let's say you put two dots in Longswords then dual class to a fighter and put two more dots in longswords. You don't get 4 dots in longswords. You basicly lose 2 dots. That's how I understand it anyway.
So let's say you roll a Swashbuckler and put 2 dots in longsword and another 2 dots in Two Weapon Style over the course of leveling up. When you dual class to Fighter, you'll want to put points into other weapons until you Catch Up. Then you can finish maxing out dual wielding and longswords to go with the axe skill you've been developing. You can use a shield even without Sword and Shield style, which is generally considered to not be worth it, so you're not losing much by putting a pin in Dual Wielding while leveling up fighter til you get your thief stuff back.
I'm planning to dual-class at 13, which means I will have 8 points of proficiency points to spend. Should I spend 5 in one weapon and 3 on another or should I divide them equally between two weapons(4 each)?
Fighting two ankhegs at once I noticed one of them continuously targeting Imoen from range, despite the fact I had a couple of other NPC close in trying to distract its attention away from her. No matter where I moved her she got smacked. I know it's all to do with the dice rolls but I'm finding this particular inability to dodge a ranged attack you can see coming a bit of an immersion breaking thing. Should this improve as you level up?
Ankhegs actually have it in their AI to target ranged and casters before other enemies. You have to keep them way out of range for it to go after a melee target. They're surprisingly tactically minded for giant cockroaches.