He doesn't seem overpowered at all... His Dex is a major problem, and he doesn't come with nice gear like some other NPCs. What do you mean by 'missing' proficiency points?
His number of proficiency points in vanilla was fewer than a fighter/cleric of his level should have.
The power thing is not about overpowered or not, it's about "Anomen is X powerful before the fix, so he should be roughly X powerful after the fix". And it just so happens he does go on about how he mightily used to use spears, hence proficiencies spent on spears.
@Wisp, I can kind of see that, as a roleplaying thing. He got 8 levels of fighter, and presumably used the spears during all that time. Then, when he found out he couldn't be a squire paladin, he dualed to cleric, having to take oaths against the spears.
@Heindrich1988, his "overpoweredness" is that he has 8 levels of fighter and 7 levels of cleric, as a dual class (as opposed to multi). He is the equivalent of a 15th level character when you meet him.
@Wisp, I can kind of see that, as a roleplaying thing. He got 8 levels of fighter, and presumably used the spears during all that time. Then, when he found out he couldn't be a squire paladin, he dualed to cleric, having to take oaths against the spears.
@Heindrich1988, his "overpoweredness" is that he has 8 levels of fighter and 7 levels of cleric, as a dual class (as opposed to multi). He is the equivalent of a 15th level character when you meet him.
You sure its not 7 levels of fighter and 8 levels of cleric?
You can't just add levels for equivilancy in 2E, because the progression is logarithmic below 10th level. A better formula is highest level, plus one for each additional class. That makes Anomen more like 9th level character at the start. Of course that's sort of a SWAG, but bottom line is, he's not like a 15th level character.
Not that it really matters....casters aside, there's really not much gain after 10. X1 more BS for thieves, and a few extra points. 1/2 attack more for fighters. And even casters don't NEED high levels.
Sarevok is 15, and can be rolled by a solo level 8 fighter, depending on what gear you being to the party.
Gear and what tactics you use are far more important then levels. Even casters don't really need higher level spells. The extra capacity is their real bonus, and even that can be mitigated by simply carrying wands or scrolls around. (In PnP, Mages can make scrolls of any spells they can cast at level 1, and craft wands at level 7. Most Mage Staves can be made as early as 10, but you'd need scrolls of Imbue Item (6th) and Permanency (8th) to craft them).
Levels above 10 in 2nd edition are just icing, since most games are intended to be over by 10-ish (most kits are also very front-loaded, hence why the PnP UD Hunter receives a holy sword at level 6).
If you check the "high" level campaign guide, you'll notice something very different from BG immediately. over 60% of HLA are gained before level 20, several as early as 11-13.
A huge list of new NCP opens up, requiring 10+ to take, including trap-making (Bounty Hunters and Stalkers have 1 point in this at creation, they simply can't add more until 10+), Spelunking (10% per point to find and disarm traps), Locksmithing (10% per point of opening a lock), Dungeoneering (+10% chance of noticing unusual architecture such as hidden doors or traps (stacks with Spelunking for spotting traps (Maximum of 95%)).
@atcDave, Anomen is a human dual class. The 7 levels of fighter had to be gained sequentially. Then, the 8 levels of cleric had to be gained sequentially. You're thinking about non-human multiclasses. A human dual 7th level fighter>8th level cleric has fifteen levels.
@atcDave, Anomen is a human dual class. The 7 levels of fighter had to be gained sequentially. Then, the 8 levels of cleric had to be gained sequentially. You're thinking about non-human multiclasses. A human dual 7th level fighter>8th level cleric has fifteen levels.
I think atcDave meant that the lower levels require much less xp to achieve. So Anomen's 8 levels in Cleric and 7 in Fighter probably requires only as much xp as maybe a lv 9 or lv 10 Mage. Certainly he is not equivalent in raw xp as a level 15 Mage.
Oh and by the way, I eventually decided to pick a compromise solution and just transferred 1 prof. point from spear to flail.
Yes but he still isn't a 15th level equivilant. The levels really don't stack that way. He has nine hit dice, the Thaco of a 7th level fighter, the spells of an 8th level cleric....
Bottom line is, he's a medium level character, NOT a high level character like "15th level" would suggest.
Atcdave is correct. He's not the equivalent of a 15th level.
He does have a few advantages over a base level 8 cleric but you can't add them like 7 plus 8.
Put him up against a pure 15th level fighter or a pure 15th level cleric. There's a HUGE difference, and i cant stress that huge enough. Even in just the amount of experience they'd possess.
Part of the problem is that 3E and later rule sets work very differently, and the levels really do stack. But absolutely not in 2E. A multi or dual, in computer or PNP, is based on their highest level, plus one per class.
You need to look at the experience tables and do the math on dividing experience. But the way it works out is like GreatKahn suggested, a 15th level fighter or cleric is MUCH more powerful than a dual or multi who totals 15 levels.
Okay, I've decided to try to make my point on this just one more time. Look at Anomen's total experience points when you meet him, and then compare that to all the other toons' total experience points. Surely that gives us a completely objective way to settle the issue?
Well we're not saying this to be mean or argumentative. I'm just stating the facts.
When you first get Anomen he has seven levels of fighter which is 64000 exp. he is then level 8 cleric at 110000 exp. that's a total of 174000. Minsc on the other hand starts at level 8 with 161000. That's a 13000 exp difference and by the time you leave irenicus' dungeon Minsk will actually have more exp than a starting anomen.
Well we're not saying this to be mean or argumentative. I'm just stating the facts.
When you first get Anomen he has seven levels of fighter which is 64000 exp. he is then level 8 cleric at 110000 exp. that's a total of 174000. Minsc on the other hand starts at level 8 with 161000. That's a 13000 exp difference and by the time you leave irenicus' dungeon Minsk will actually have more exp than a starting anomen.
Minsc may not be overwhelmingly powerful in the sense that he will only have 1 spell at the start of BG2 and his proficiencies are kind of designed to let players decide how they want to play him (two handed vs two weapon). But I think Keldorn, Valygar, Mazzy, or Haer'Dalis are probably better examples that can be compared to Anomen's power at 174,000 XP. I think you can get a lower level version of all of them that hovers around this amount.
anomen is a great character, he has tons of time to get 5 proficiencies in a weapon of your choice, and get him some tank spells, and he will be good to go, fighters dual classed into clerics are incredibly powerful especially if you find these two items for him: ps: I wont say where they are:
gauntlets of dexterity and hammer of thunderbolts upgraded to cromfayer
and also, are you sure all those items are gone? I remember one time I played and I didn't pick up a single item before I saved the keep, and then I picked them all up after the keep was saved ( although at the time I didn't have ToB installed so that might have done something, plus this was like 10 years ago so I don't 100 % remember if all the items were gone) worse case scenario you can use the handy dandy CLUAConsole to summon the missing flail head, and then go finish it, it wouldn't be considered cheating, if you knew ahead of time and no doubt you would have picked it up if you knew, or better yet, just drop the +2 version you have and summon in the +3 version and just keep that one instead ( plus I have done bagillions of play throughs where I didn't use the flail of the ages as a main weapon - just a back up for a cleric who was always in range combat at best- and it didn't make the playthrough any less enjoyable, so if you are completely against cheating in any fashion, you don't have to worry if you don't get the flail of the ages, plus there is always next play through to get )
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The power thing is not about overpowered or not, it's about "Anomen is X powerful before the fix, so he should be roughly X powerful after the fix". And it just so happens he does go on about how he mightily used to use spears, hence proficiencies spent on spears.
@Heindrich1988, his "overpoweredness" is that he has 8 levels of fighter and 7 levels of cleric, as a dual class (as opposed to multi). He is the equivalent of a 15th level character when you meet him.
Sarevok is 15, and can be rolled by a solo level 8 fighter, depending on what gear you being to the party.
Gear and what tactics you use are far more important then levels. Even casters don't really need higher level spells. The extra capacity is their real bonus, and even that can be mitigated by simply carrying wands or scrolls around. (In PnP, Mages can make scrolls of any spells they can cast at level 1, and craft wands at level 7. Most Mage Staves can be made as early as 10, but you'd need scrolls of Imbue Item (6th) and Permanency (8th) to craft them).
Levels above 10 in 2nd edition are just icing, since most games are intended to be over by 10-ish (most kits are also very front-loaded, hence why the PnP UD Hunter receives a holy sword at level 6).
If you check the "high" level campaign guide, you'll notice something very different from BG immediately. over 60% of HLA are gained before level 20, several as early as 11-13.
A huge list of new NCP opens up, requiring 10+ to take, including trap-making (Bounty Hunters and Stalkers have 1 point in this at creation, they simply can't add more until 10+), Spelunking (10% per point to find and disarm traps), Locksmithing (10% per point of opening a lock), Dungeoneering (+10% chance of noticing unusual architecture such as hidden doors or traps (stacks with Spelunking for spotting traps (Maximum of 95%)).
Oh and by the way, I eventually decided to pick a compromise solution and just transferred 1 prof. point from spear to flail.
Bottom line is, he's a medium level character, NOT a high level character like "15th level" would suggest.
He does have a few advantages over a base level 8 cleric but you can't add them like 7 plus 8.
Put him up against a pure 15th level fighter or a pure 15th level cleric. There's a HUGE difference, and i cant stress that huge enough. Even in just the amount of experience they'd possess.
You need to look at the experience tables and do the math on dividing experience. But the way it works out is like GreatKahn suggested, a 15th level fighter or cleric is MUCH more powerful than a dual or multi who totals 15 levels.
When you first get Anomen he has seven levels of fighter which is 64000 exp. he is then level 8 cleric at 110000 exp. that's a total of 174000. Minsc on the other hand starts at level 8 with 161000. That's a 13000 exp difference and by the time you leave irenicus' dungeon Minsk will actually have more exp than a starting anomen.