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Some BG 2 Questions

HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
I got a few specific questions that kinda follow on from my last thread
but I thought it'd be better to start a new one to save u guys some reading :)

I've only got as far as freeing the slaves in the slums (been busy so not played much), so please NO SPOILERS in your answers as always. I'm considering reloading cos my game's gotten a bit messy RP-wise, and before I do I wanna check the following:

1)
Context to the question:
I was recommended to pick up Keldorn for his mighty dispelling capabilities, and I know magical duels will feature hugely in this game. However, I am playing a RP-focused run (as opposed to powergaming), and the process of getting Keldorn at the start felt very 'metagamey', (I had to avoid the nasty encounters near him and abruptly stopped his investigation of the Eyeless). Also when his quest came along and I played it the way my Charname would handle it, I lost Keldorn permanently -.-


Will a party consisting of Fighter/Mage Charname, Anomen, Aerie, Jaheira, Minsc and Imoen/Yoshimo be reasonably capable of completing SoA and ToB? Bearing in mind I will not be min/maxing and playing semi-'blind', so will probably miss out on various uber weapons and easter eggs. I know (been told) Keldorn is very powerful, but RP-wise, my Charname would just recruit Anomen when they first meet at the Copper Coronet, so I'd prefer to just use him.

2)
Is the quest to save Imoen particularly challenging? Or rather roughly what level should I be before I try?

Extra context:
RP-wise, rescuing Imoen is the absolute priority for Charname. But common-sense wise, I fear the Cowled Wizards will be way stronger than my party, (actually I deliberately cast magic to get them to appear, hoping that I could talk to them, but they just attacked on sight and wiped out my party, lol, so I'm guessing that's not how you're supposed to save her) so I've been spending gold on improving gear and buying a magic license before paying Gaelen(?) to save Imoen. However, it bothers me (Charname) that he has raised over 20,000 gold, but spend most of it on gear instead of saving Imoen asap.


3)
I've been playing with no mods that I'm aware of, just as downloaded from GOG. Thus far I've not noticed any bugs, but people keep mentioning fix-packs and mods.

What bugs are there exactly in the Vanilla? Are they significant? (don't answer me if it involves the plot) I'm really reluctant about installing any mods encase it messes up my game or changes the experience in any way. I just want to play 'the original experience' BG 2.






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Comments

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited July 2013
    1.) Keldorn

    [Spoiler] Keldorn isn't only an incredible powerful character, he also has an amazing personality and adds very much to the story. He has dialogues and opinions about many things in the game, and he also prevents you from taking some options (Cleric stronghold) by lying to people, he will say "I am sorry to say this but CHARNAME didn't tell you the whole truth" . The problem with him is that most people would let him go back to his wife when you're doing his quest and remove him permanently from your party. He is worth taking with you and he will influence your playthrough towards good actions. [/spoiler]

    2.)

    [Spoiler] Getting to Imoen isn't hard, it is what happens afterwards that is difficult. Sadly Imoen wasn't ment to be gotten early on as she has almost no dialogues at all between the quests in chapter 2-3. So don't worry about her and just do the quests you can before getting her [/spoiler]

    3.)

    There are almost no bugs in the game when it's patched. All this about fix packs are all nice and dandy but you can play the original game with the ToB patch and never run into any bugs at all.
  • GyldengladGyldenglad Member Posts: 10
    edited July 2013
    The original BG2 had a lot of bugs, but most of those were fixed with the old patches, so that's alright. (I used to have the very first release with 4 install discs :D).

    Imoen:


    Without spoiling too much, Imoen's quest is a thing you do and leave everything else behind, that is as far as I remember. The most powerful weapons you will get later on, HOWEVER there are a lot of powerful weapons and side missions you will also miss if you go straight to Imoens quest.


    About your party, I wouldn't worry too much, my only concern is that you have no real "bow" users, and I'm not talking about thieves since they can only spec 2 in bow. So what you probably have to realise is that Aerie should be used as a buffer/debuffer so that your melee characters, MT, minsc, jaheira, and Anomen will be able to land some hits. Without the low THAC0 of a bow user I think you will struggle picking down a lot of smaller/medium enemies, so making sure no buffs stands between your target and the enemy, would be my way to go.

    Hope it helps :)
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    edited July 2013
    1 imoen
    you can rescue imoen whenever it is not hard

    2 party
    Fighter/Mage Charname, Anomen, Aerie, Jaheira, Minsc and Imoen/Yoshimo
    pretty good party with 2 not fighters should work great

    3 bugs and mods
    mods are only for things like true grandmastery that gives +0.5 apr and other things it doesn't really "fix" things you can play without them easily no problem

    4 keldorn
    i think keldorn is great but vanilla bg is so easy that you don't need keldorn your 2-3 mages with spells will do
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    edited July 2013
    Thanks all. A slight spread of info... but appreciated all the same.



    Without spoiling too much, Imoen's quest is a thing you do and leave everything else behind, that is as far as I remember. The most powerful weapons you will get later on, HOWEVER there are a lot of powerful weapons and side missions you will also miss if you go straight to Imoens quest.

    Just to confirm... if I take the Imoen quest, I can no longer do all the side quests in city, Windspear Hills, the D'Arnise castle... etc?

    Odd game design if true, seems a bit strange to penalise players who try to save their best friend asap, which is the 'noble' thing to do RP-wise. I guess I'll have to RP it as 'Charname realises that he needs time to regain his strength after the tortures of Irenicus and also acquire proper equipment before confronting the powerful Cowled Wizards to save Imoen.' I'll just trust that there's a good plot reason for this...

    From a gaming perspective, I wanted to find Imoen asap cos I'm concerned she's gaining no xp whilst she's a prisoner, so I didn't want too-big an xp gap to develop between her and everyone else.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    You can still do the quests it's just going to take a long time to do so. It's like what happens in Candlekeep and the werewolf island in BG1 just alot longer. And the game didn't intend for you to rush after Imoen quickly.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited July 2013
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689

    There are a few bugs I sometimes run into in BG2 vanilla. Sometimes I can fix this by redoing the area. Other times I'll look around online for help. Even with the fixpacks installed, I still often ran into them.

    Have a save before you enter a dungeon. No harm in keeping these saves.
    Have a save before you go do a quest (like right after you've accepted the quest). Delete after finishing if you like.

    I have played the BG series from release and i have only ever ran into two major bugs.

    1.) The person is busy talk bug in BG2 ToB before patch fixed it.

    2.) BGT and Tutu crashing in Beregost.

    I might be lucky but i have played so many games with only the original patch and never ran into any big problems.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,370
    As far as Keldorn goes, I never consider it a big deal to just ask him to finish your quest, then release him. His final recap is quite satisfying if you make that choice. And since I usually play LG or NG, Keldorn is always a good fit for my party.

    I go for rescuing Imoen quickly. I really dislike the idea of letting her rot in Spellhold for long. I adventure just long enough to be able to afford her rescue (and complete Nalia's quests) before I go after Imoen.

    Just like BG1; you then end up with a lot of quests you can finish up, even though perfect role playing would probably have you scurrying off on the main plot. But I take my time once I rescue Immy anyway. The game won't actually force the issue. And none of the old quests actually time out, they are all waiting for you.

    The party you have will be fine; although Keldorn would be more helpful than Anomen.
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  • WispWisp Member Posts: 1,102
    edited July 2013
    You people are joking, right? You may not be aware of the bugs, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. If you want to know what is fixed by the FIxpack, you can read this page, and scroll, scroll, scroll. It's reasonably spoiler-free, but not entirely. Suffice to say that the number of bugs fixed number in the hundreds, and range from conditionally game-breaking (or close to it) to cosmetic.

    Your party should be alright if you get Imoen reasonably early. With just multi-classed mages and no Keldorn, you are rather low on caster levels (high-level spells come late, no overpowered Dispel or free True Seeing). Imoen can help with this, but not if you get her too late.

    She can be level 11 or level 13 when you rescue her, so going around level 12–15 is pretty reasonable. The other stuff isn't that difficult and can be handled at those levels, even by someone who isn't powergaming their brains out.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited July 2013
    Wisp said:

    You people are joking, right? If you want to know what is fixed by the FIxpack, you can read this page, and scroll, scroll, scroll (it's reasonably spoiler-free). You may not be aware of the bugs, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

    Your party should be alright if you get Imoen reasonably early. With just multi-classed mages and no Keldorn, you are rather low on caster levels (high-level spells come late, no overpowered Dispel or free True Seeing). Imoen can help with this, but not if you get her too late.

    She can be level 11 or level 13 when you rescue her, so going around level 12–15 is pretty reasonable. The other stuff isn't that difficult and can be handled at those levels, even by someone who isn't powergaming their brains out.

    As nice as it is to have the Fixpack none of those changes are critical and you can play the original game fine without it.

    [Edited] : Just want to say i'm not against the Fixpack and i think people should install it to get an improved gaming experience. BG2 just happens to be one of those games that you can play with the original patch and play a bug free game. Wish more games that get released today had the same amount of testing.
  • WispWisp Member Posts: 1,102
    SionIV said:


    As nice as it is to have the Fixpack none of those changes are critical and you can play the original game fine without it.

    [Edited] : Just want to say i'm not against the Fixpack and i think people should install it to get an improved gaming experience. BG2 just happens to be one of those games that you can play with the original patch and play a bug free game. Wish more games that get released today had the same amount of testing.

    Bugs are not just things that crash your game. When Anomen comes with too few proficiencies, that's a bug. When the kit checks in dialogues or scripts do not work, that's a bug. When Blades come with the full amount of points in Pickpocket, that's a bug. When the barbarian's Rage imposes a penalty on saves, instead of the bonus it should bestow, that's a bug. When your high-level cleric/thief is unable to level up any further without getting stuck on the proficiency screen, that's a bug. When Valygar gets imprisoned, freed and you stand there with Valygar and his body (a separate item), that's a bug. When Azuredge does not work, that's a bug. When Tamoko flees during events in ToB and prevents you from proceeding, that's a bug. Etc., etc., etc.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited July 2013
    Wisp said:

    SionIV said:


    As nice as it is to have the Fixpack none of those changes are critical and you can play the original game fine without it.

    [Edited] : Just want to say i'm not against the Fixpack and i think people should install it to get an improved gaming experience. BG2 just happens to be one of those games that you can play with the original patch and play a bug free game. Wish more games that get released today had the same amount of testing.

    Bugs are not just things that crash your game. When Anomen comes with too few proficiencies, that's a bug. When the kit checks in dialogues or scripts do not work, that's a bug. When Blades come with the full amount of points in Pickpocket, that's a bug. When the barbarian's Rage imposes a penalty on saves, instead of the bonus it should bestow, that's a bug. When your high-level cleric/thief is unable to level up any further without getting stuck on the proficiency screen, that's a bug. When Valygar gets imprisoned, freed and you stand there with Valygar and his body (a separate item), that's a bug. When Azuredge does not work, that's a bug. When Tamoko flees during events in ToB and prevents you from proceeding, that's a bug. Etc., etc., etc.
    I guess i'm just a sucker for hard games and when SCS and tactics isn't enough i'll have to start cutting out on proficiency points and Thac0 :P

    I haven't experienced alot of those bugs myself :)
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    Wisp said:

    SionIV said:


    As nice as it is to have the Fixpack none of those changes are critical and you can play the original game fine without it.

    [Edited] : Just want to say i'm not against the Fixpack and i think people should install it to get an improved gaming experience. BG2 just happens to be one of those games that you can play with the original patch and play a bug free game. Wish more games that get released today had the same amount of testing.

    Bugs are not just things that crash your game. When Anomen comes with too few proficiencies, that's a bug. When the kit checks in dialogues or scripts do not work, that's a bug. When Blades come with the full amount of points in Pickpocket, that's a bug. When the barbarian's Rage imposes a penalty on saves, instead of the bonus it should bestow, that's a bug. When your high-level cleric/thief is unable to level up any further without getting stuck on the proficiency screen, that's a bug. When Valygar gets imprisoned, freed and you stand there with Valygar and his body (a separate item), that's a bug. When Azuredge does not work, that's a bug. When Tamoko flees during events in ToB and prevents you from proceeding, that's a bug. Etc., etc., etc.
    Hmmm... Anomen has too few proficiencies? Of the bugs you mentioned, that seems to be the only one that might affect me.

    That said if the fix-pack is a general improvement, I might as well just install it for peace-of-mind. As I said, the main reason that I hesitate is that I don't want to taint the vanilla experience with some optional fixes that might be motivated by D&D fans trying to mod the the game to better reflect PnP. I also hope this fix patch won't improve enemy AI or make my life tougher in some other way, since I am already penalising myself by playing RP-focused, semi-blind and not using min/maxed PC.

    Also when I was watching 'mynameisnotlilly's Let's Play, I noticed that he experienced more bugs and crashes than I did when I played BG 1 as downloaded from GOG, whereas he had installed some fix packs.

    The only bug I noticed in BG 1 Vanilla (I only played to chapter 5) was that when u went into a cave, ur party formation often got switched. Thee only bug I noticed in BG EE was Tethtoril's quest.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    atcDave said:

    As far as Keldorn goes, I never consider it a big deal to just ask him to finish your quest, then release him. His final recap is quite satisfying if you make that choice. And since I usually play LG or NG, Keldorn is always a good fit for my party.

    I go for rescuing Imoen quickly. I really dislike the idea of letting her rot in Spellhold for long. I adventure just long enough to be able to afford her rescue (and complete Nalia's quests) before I go after Imoen.

    Just like BG1; you then end up with a lot of quests you can finish up, even though perfect role playing would probably have you scurrying off on the main plot. But I take my time once I rescue Immy anyway. The game won't actually force the issue. And none of the old quests actually time out, they are all waiting for you.

    The party you have will be fine; although Keldorn would be more helpful than Anomen.

    My main problem with Keldorn is his starting location/circumstances. If I RP it, my PC has no reason to jump to the Temple District so early, and certainly has no reason to agree to investigate some random cult when he has more pressing concerns, and then choose a very specific route to find Keldorn and persuade him to drop everything he's been doing and join my vague quest to save a friend and catch a bad wizard. lol

    I thought I'd be able to do a fair few quests before I'd have anything close to 20k gold, but I got bombarded by quests every district I walked into, and even though all I've done thus far is wipe out the slavers in the slums, I've somehow managed to spend about 9k gold on equipment, 5k on a license and still have 6k gold left. It seems money comes much easier in BG 2 than BG 1, especially early-game. Ah well in my reload I guess I'll try find some sort of balance on the Imoen issue. My normal 'completionist' instinct is really clashing with my 'RP' and 'Realism' instinct.
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  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689

    atcDave said:

    As far as Keldorn goes, I never consider it a big deal to just ask him to finish your quest, then release him. His final recap is quite satisfying if you make that choice. And since I usually play LG or NG, Keldorn is always a good fit for my party.

    I go for rescuing Imoen quickly. I really dislike the idea of letting her rot in Spellhold for long. I adventure just long enough to be able to afford her rescue (and complete Nalia's quests) before I go after Imoen.

    Just like BG1; you then end up with a lot of quests you can finish up, even though perfect role playing would probably have you scurrying off on the main plot. But I take my time once I rescue Immy anyway. The game won't actually force the issue. And none of the old quests actually time out, they are all waiting for you.

    The party you have will be fine; although Keldorn would be more helpful than Anomen.

    My main problem with Keldorn is his starting location/circumstances. If I RP it, my PC has no reason to jump to the Temple District so early, and certainly has no reason to agree to investigate some random cult when he has more pressing concerns, and then choose a very specific route to find Keldorn and persuade him to drop everything he's been doing and join my vague quest to save a friend and catch a bad wizard. lol

    I thought I'd be able to do a fair few quests before I'd have anything close to 20k gold, but I got bombarded by quests every district I walked into, and even though all I've done thus far is wipe out the slavers in the slums, I've somehow managed to spend about 9k gold on equipment, 5k on a license and still have 6k gold left. It seems money comes much easier in BG 2 than BG 1, especially early-game. Ah well in my reload I guess I'll try find some sort of balance on the Imoen issue. My normal 'completionist' instinct is really clashing with my 'RP' and 'Realism' instinct.
    If you're in a new city and have no idea what to do or where to go, there is always one thing that is there and that is a temple. I don't see why you wouldn't go to a temple of your characters choise to have a safe haven, and by doing that you would get sent to the sewer. The chanse of them actually having a real god is very slim and it would most probably just be going down there and talk to one of the unseeing ones and find out it's just a cult with no god and a faith that is based on a lie.
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  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689

    Yeah you get bombarded by quests a lot in BG2. Love it or hate it. (:

    For Keldorn, you can always pick him up when you get around to his quest. He'll be higher level then. One of my favourite characters also takes a while to get to. Try and roleplay having a 5 player party until you get everyone you want? It's also good to have an extra slot for a character to come and go.

    And it could be so much worse, Mazzy wants to say hi.
  • WispWisp Member Posts: 1,102


    Hmmm... Anomen has too few proficiencies? Of the bugs you mentioned, that seems to be the only one that might affect me.

    That said if the fix-pack is a general improvement, I might as well just install it for peace-of-mind.

    Be aware that the game stores a large amount of information in the saved game, and many fixes (such as those to Anomen) will not take effect unless/until you start a new game. (I also did not go out of my way to mention bugs that will definitely affect you. This is just a very, very, very small sample, with a bias towards the start of the documentation.)


    As I said, the main reason that I hesitate is that I don't want to taint the vanilla experience with some optional fixes that might be motivated by D&D fans trying to mod the the game to better reflect PnP. I also hope this fix patch won't improve enemy AI or make my life tougher in some other way, since I am already penalising myself by playing RP-focused, semi-blind and not using min/maxed PC.

    The Fixpack has a pretty rigorous vetting process, with multiple stakeholders. It's not one guy who sits there and makes spurious changes. The less clear-cut stuff is available separately from the rest, or simply not included. It's the same game with the same feel and the same, unaltered content, just less buggy.

    Yes, BG2 is not Temple of Corrupting Your Save. But describing it as bug-free is a pretty big mischaracterisation.
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  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689

    SionIV said:


    And it could be so much worse, Mazzy wants to say hi.

    Mazzy :D SHE is my favourite :3 Dynaheir incarnate. XD

    Same voice actor. :)
    I love her to death, it's such a refreshing character. And her dialogues with Valygaris worth it's weight in gold.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,370
    Yeah there's no way I'd do all those quests before going for Imoen. Save most of them for after.

    I don't think its that hard to justify a stop by the Temple District early. The only issue then with Keldorn is dragging him off to rescue Imoen before coming back to finish his quest. Although, for the record, his quest really isn't that long, you can just as easily finish it quickly. It can be VERY difficult if you aren't really prepared for it; but its one of those, if you know what's coming its not really all that hard.
    It is a little meta-gaming, but you will be overwhelmed with quests regardless; one more doesn't matter to me that much!
    I often don't take Keldorn, especially if I'm playing a paladin myself. But when I want him, I get him early.

    Money will come very fast, 20K is not a big deal.

    Reference the discussion above; the game plays easily enough with no patches at all. The Fixpack is one you can probably take that won't hurt balance in any way. But it is truly not needed. The game runs just fine without it. I finished through ToB two or three times before I even heard of the thing.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959

    Yeah you get bombarded by quests a lot in BG2. Love it or hate it. (:

    For Keldorn, you can always pick him up when you get around to his quest. He'll be higher level then. One of my favourite characters also takes a while to get to. Try and roleplay having a 5 player party until you get everyone you want? It's also good to have an extra slot for a character to come and go.

    NPCs gain levels automatically? How is it determined? The xp of your party, or just your Charname? Is it affected by Multi-classing or Dual-classing?
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited July 2013
    It's the XP of CHARNAME. It's the same in BG1 even Imoen can be high level when you pick her up if you cheated in some levels or killed firebeard when you were in candlekeep.

    [Edited] It's also why some people prefer to go solo to start with in BG1/BG2 to ramp up some levels faster and then get a party so they already start with a higher level. If you get 300 000 experience and get to level 11 in a class then when you recruit your 5 people they will all have gotten the 300 000 - 400 000 experience which could mean the same as having got 1 500 000 experience for your whole party.
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  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    Wisp said:


    Be aware that the game stores a large amount of information in the saved game, and many fixes (such as those to Anomen) will not take effect unless/until you start a new game. (I also did not go out of my way to mention bugs that will definitely affect you. This is just a very, very, very small sample, with a bias towards the start of the documentation.)

    I was probably going to start again anyway cos my current game is a bit of a mess RP-wise with me having done things that just doesn't make sense and accepted way too many quests.

    That said, if I install this fix, does that mean my existing saves will no longer work? Or will they still function, but just without the benefits of the fix?
  • WispWisp Member Posts: 1,102
    SionIV said:

    It's the XP of CHARNAME. It's the same in BG1 even Imoen can be high level when you pick her up if you cheated in some levels or killed firebeard when you were in candlekeep.

    In BG2 (and engine derivatives) it's actually average party level.
    Start as a multi-class at level 1/1, take Imoen into your party. Level her all the way up, go south to pick up Kivan. He's level 6 (the maximum level you can obtain him at). Reload, kick out Imoen. Pick up Kivan. He's level 2 (the minimum level you can obtain him at). Go to Beregost and pick up Garrick. He's level 1. Reload and level up your multi-class to level 1/2 (Kivan is still at level 2) and pick up Garrick again. Now he's level 2 (this time your average level was closer to 2, while last time it was closer to 1).
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959

    Yeah, there are predetermined levels an NPC will be at. :D There's an upper limit, but I'm not sure what. But if you start your PC at level 8, other characters will be around 8. If you start at 11 (be importing a higher level character), the other characters will be around 11.


    Also, I realise your struggle with RP and group make-up. I think it comes down to the player to rationalise kicking certain characters out of the party at whatever time.

    To me, you kick a person out of the party usually for 1 of 5 main reasons:
    1 - their alignment is different than what you want in your party (maybe they complain a lot!)
    2 - you don't need a person of their class in your current party (implicitly you think it endangers you or your party)
    3 - meta-gaming: you know something is going to happen and you want an extra character slot free
    4 - you imagine a scenario in your head (eg. Minsc goes off with Aerie, Jaheira reports to the harpers)
    5 - you don't kick them out: they leave because a decision you made in a quest.

    To be honest, without meta-gaming or making things up you'd almost always keep the same party if you are roleplaying the same type of character! :) The NPCs rarely say they're going to leave. So if you want them to leave, you may want to pretend some discussion happened that didn't. :D

    ... And that is my roleplaying rant for the month. ^-^'

    Yeah that's why I do intend to more or less stick with the same characters throughout SoA and ToB.

    In BG 1 I had originally intended to 'allow' Jaheira to get killed in a battle and then not raise her, and do like-wise with Minsc, so I could replace them with Kivan and Branwen. But then I realised there was such a thing as a canon party, and I wanted my trilogy play-through to make sense, so I've just stuck with them for the entirety of the game.

    It is actually a bit annoying you cannot somehow recruit extra characters (but still only being allowed to use 6 at a time). From a RP perspective, my Charname would have certainly agreed to join forces with Kivan, Yeslick, Branwen and Ajantis in BG 1. They could make it so that characters in your expanded party, but not currently in action, gain half the xp of characters currently in action, without stealing the xp of the 6 active characters.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    Wisp said:

    SionIV said:

    It's the XP of CHARNAME. It's the same in BG1 even Imoen can be high level when you pick her up if you cheated in some levels or killed firebeard when you were in candlekeep.

    In BG2 (and engine derivatives) it's actually average party level.
    Start as a multi-class at level 1/1, take Imoen into your party. Level her all the way up, go south to pick up Kivan. He's level 6 (the maximum level you can obtain him at). Reload, kick out Imoen. Pick up Kivan. He's level 2 (the minimum level you can obtain him at). Go to Beregost and pick up Garrick. He's level 1. Reload and level up your multi-class to level 1/2 (Kivan is still at level 2) and pick up Garrick again. Now he's level 2 (this time your average level was closer to 2, while last time it was closer to 1).
    isn't that the same though? You're the average party when you're alone so they will join at your level. Then everyone in your party is the same level as you which is the average etc.
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