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Cleric/thief racial restrictions - why?

How come that even though all races can be a cleric or a theif, they cannot become multiclass cleric/thief? Is it due to D&D rules or is there any reason?

Halfling seems just perfect for the class (thank you EE keeper!): No wisdom penalty, bonus to sling (only useable ranged weapon) and 19 DEX + bonus thieving skills + best Shorty Saves... It seems there is no roleplaying reason why a halfling is restricted from this multiclass? Only downside is a max 17 STR, but with DUHM it is no real downside...

Comments

  • EntropyXIIEntropyXII Member Posts: 656
    edited July 2013
    I couldn't be sure on this - somebody more knowledgeable about 2nd edition PnP rules could give you a more detailed answer.

    I think it is primarily down to balancing the races. There are role play elements of it as well. DnD Halflings have about the same lifespan as a human, however they lack the drive and ambition humans have: which removes dual-classing. Halfling's do not have the lifespan of elves or even half-elves and thus are unable to pursue a career as time consuming as a multi-class cleric/thief.

    A cleric as it is, would be complete devotion to a god. Many clerics would not have the time to learn the complex art of thievery - even halfling's for which thievery would seem to be a natural talent. Due to their short life spans they would pick one or the other or a multi-class combination that would not take up most of their time - such as the fighter/thief. Elves and half-elves on the other hand live a lot longer (having more time to pursue lengthy multi-class careers) and half-elves have the drive of humans and thus evidently, the least restrictions.

    It get's confusing sure - I don't actually know if they ever bothered explaining the multi-class restrictions beyond what I told you above (which is a conclusion I came through over a few years of pondering the same question), but for me it makes the most sense.

    Obviously in 3rd edition and beyond, this changed. The choosing of clerical domains for those of the 'godly' persuasion would have built around the idea of a Halfling cleric really well. Thievery domains etc.
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    Halflings normally aren't allowed to pick the cleric/thief multiclass in AD&D second edition. Although there exist a way around it: players can choose to become Misadventures, specialty priests of Brandobaris, which in turn are allowed to multiclass as misadventurer/thieves. These fellas are somewhat of a mix of cleric/tief/wizard and quite fun to play. You may check out the Faiths of Faerûn Kitpack if you're interested in playing one.

    Similarly, dwarves can't become cleric/thieves. They are worse off than halflings though. Aetharnors, one of the specialty priests of Abbathor, are not allowed to multiclass at all. Although the specialty kit itself possesses limited thief abilities, which makes them somewhat gimped cleric/thief/illusionists.
  • CactusCactus Member Posts: 152
    @EntropyXII Elves and half elves can't multiclass Cleric/thief either... There goes the lifespan theory ;)

    @Kamigoroshi Thank you, I might give the Kitpack a try later (I am not so great with computers, installing it will take me forever). How does Misadventure/theives differ from "normal" cleric/thieves??
  • EntropyXIIEntropyXII Member Posts: 656
    @Cactus - Oops! my bad :) I do not know why, but for some reason I thought they did. I should really check my facts before I go on giving advice.
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    @Cactus Basically, in P&P AD&D specialty priests are the elite figures of their church. Their god grants them many different sets of abilites and various specific divine spells, which a "generic" cleric does not possess. In the case of the Misadventurers specialty priest, it means the following:

    * Misadventurers must be halflings. Most misadventurers are hairfeet, but they can be of any halfling subrace.
    * Misadventurers are allowed to multiclass as misadventurer/thieves.
    * Misadventurers may select nonweapon proficiencies from the rogue group without penalty.
    * Misadventurers understand and use thieves' cant.
    * Single-class misadventurers have limited thieving skills as defined in the Limited Thieving Skills section of "Appendix 1: Demihuman Priests." Multiclassed misadventurer/thieves receive no extra thieving skill points or bonuses for their misadventurer class; their thieving skills are based solely off their thief class.
    Misadventurers can cast feather fall or spider climb (as the 1st-level wizard spells) once per day.
    * At 3rd level, misadventurers can cast find traps or silence ,15' radius (as 1 the 2nd level priest spells) once per day.
    * At 3rd level, misadventurers can create an illusionary calling card once a day. This calling card is the illusion of a simple item, whether it be a white glove, silk scarf, or rose. Upon its creation, the item must be immediately placed in a fixed location or it fades away into nothingness. Once placed, the illusionary item does not move or disappear until touched by a sentient being (animal intelligence or greater) other than the caster. Once touched, a calling card instantly melts away into nothingness. Much like a wizard's sigil, the calling card of a priest of Brandobaris is unique to that individual within the faith. Each acolyte of the Master of Stealth must choose an illusionary item to be created by this spell the first time calling card is cast. Once chosen, the type of object created can never be changed. Calling cards are typically left behind at the scene of the crime to take oblique credit for the theft. For every three levels above 3rd, a misadventurer can create an additional calling card per day.
    * At 5th level, misadventurers can cast invisibility or knock (as the 2nd-level wizard spells) once per day. They gain the potential to do this once more per day at 15th level.
    * At 7th level, misadventurers can cast deeppockets (as the 2nd-level wizard spell) once per day.
    * At 10th level, misadventurers can cast fumble (as the 4thlevel wizard spell) or undetectable lie (as the reverse of the 4thlevel priest spell detect lie) once per day.
    * At 13th level, misadventurers can cast legend lore (as the 6th-level wizard spell) once per tenday.


    Keep in mind that I personally haven't played with the kitpack I mentioned yet. it may handle a few things differently from what I mentioned above.
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    If it has to do with drive and lifespan, then why can half-orcs do it?
  • SheikhSheikh Member Posts: 26

    If it has to do with drive and lifespan, then why can half-orcs do it?

    I have a feeling half-orcs arent very well thought out thats all.

  • MilesBeyondMilesBeyond Member Posts: 324
    Yeah I always thought it incredibly odd that C/T is available only to Gnomes and, bizarrely enough, Half-Orcs.
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    But halflings do have a base creation maximum of 17 wisdom.
  • CactusCactus Member Posts: 152
    edited July 2013
    @Dazzu you are right... Halfling compared to the gnome you trade 1 STR for save vs. death and bonus to sling and +1 DEX... This means not overpowered in comparrison.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    I agree Halflings should be able to be Cleric/Thieves. One of the few changes I would make to 2e AD&D, really.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited July 2013
    Quartz said:

    I agree Halflings should be able to be Cleric/Thieves. One of the few changes I would make to 2e AD&D, really.

    Why stop there then? Why not let halflings be allowed to be fighter/clerics?

    Then there are gnomes who currently can't be fighter/illusionist/thieves and fighter/illusionist/clerics. Elves can't be fighter/cleric/mages, cleric/mages, cleric/thieves, and cleric/rangers. Dwarves and half-elves aren't able to be cleric/thieves.

    Once you go down that road you should at least go for some consistency.
  • DelvarianDelvarian Member Posts: 1,232
    This is one of the things I like better in 3rd edition. No real good reason for class/race restriction if you ask me.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 6,002
    edited July 2013
    I think its also for balance reasons, because in theory if any race could be any class, then why would just choose a weaker race to be a class when some races are just better for, for example, a gnome fighter compared to a human fighter: they both can have 18 str/dex/con except the gnomes have better saves, so the ONLY reason to realistically be a human fighter is so you could dual class afterwards, other than that, whatever a human fighter can do, a gnome fighter can do better, and I think for reasons like that, that is why bg has some whacky class restrictions, now yes you could say; well I want to be a human fighter for role play purposes, but that still doesn't really justify the fact that 10 times out of 10, the gnome will always be better, and it actually works for half-orcs and gnomes to be cleric/thieves, half orcs have great strength but their saves are awful and no bonus to thief skills, while the gnome has great saves ( even go as far as saying they have amazing saves) plus they get bonuses to their thief skills, granted they can only start with 17 wis (which I guess makes up for their 2 perks over the half-orcs one) so lets say for example if they did allow halflings to become cleric/thieves, who would ever choose to be a gnome when a Halfling can already do everything better? they both have same saves, 17 wis, BUT the Halfling gets 19 dex and better thief bonuses, despite the fact that the race/class restrictions are a bit whacky in the bg series, I think they are great just the way they are, plus it gives it more of that archaic feel, and that's the one thing I didn't like much about 3.0/3.5 with virtually 0 restrictions, it just takes the feel away from me, half-orc wizards using bastard swords, ugh, but I guess some people just like doing things like that though, so whatevs I shappose
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited July 2013
    sarevok57 said:

    I think its also for balance reasons, because in theory if any race could be any class, then why would just choose a weaker race to be a class when some races are just better for, for example, a gnome fighter compared to a human fighter: they both can have 18 str/dex/con except the gnomes have better saves, so the ONLY reason to realistically be a human fighter is so you could dual class afterwards, other than that, whatever a human fighter can do, a gnome fighter can do better, and I think for reasons like that, that is why bg has some whacky class restrictions, now yes you could say; well I want to be a human fighter for role play purposes, but that still doesn't really justify the fact that 10 times out of 10, the gnome will always be better, and it actually works for half-orcs and gnomes to be cleric/thieves, half orcs have great strength but their saves are awful and no bonus to thief skills, while the gnome has great saves ( even go as far as saying they have amazing saves) plus they get bonuses to their thief skills, granted they can only start with 17 wis (which I guess makes up for their 2 perks over the half-orcs one) so lets say for example if they did allow halflings to become cleric/thieves, who would ever choose to be a gnome when a Halfling can already do everything better? they both have same saves, 17 wis, BUT the Halfling gets 19 dex and better thief bonuses, despite the fact that the race/class restrictions are a bit whacky in the bg series, I think they are great just the way they are, plus it gives it more of that archaic feel, and that's the one thing I didn't like much about 3.0/3.5 with virtually 0 restrictions, it just takes the feel away from me, half-orc wizards using bastard swords, ugh, but I guess some people just like doing things like that though, so whatevs I shappose

    You forgot halflings only have 17 strength. Without DoHM the best they can get is 18 strength. Gnomes on the other hand can get 18 strength (to 19 with the tome). It means the two are not the same. One is better at basically save vs. poison (you don't run into much save vs. death in BG1) dexterity (as well as a slight bonus to slings), and thieving skills (which lose their significance in BG2) while the other is better at strength. Also gnomes can romance Aerie in BG2. Halflings only have the new characters. So there are subtle differences between the two for players to choose either.
  • FrecheFreche Member Posts: 473
    sarevok57 said:

    I think its also for balance reasons, because in theory if any race could be any class, then why would just choose a weaker race to be a class when some races are just better for

    I would agree for a game that was more MP centric but for a SP rpg the difference between races are not that huge and there are no places in the game where you HAVE to power game to pass.

    These restrictions make zero sense since there is no restrictions to pick these classes as a single class.

    Personally I almost always pick human and then use Shadow/EE Keeper to change the character to whatever class combo I want to play and dont care if there is a better race for that.
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    elminster said:

    Also gnomes can romance Aerie in BG2. Halflings only have the new characters. So there are subtle differences between the two for players to choose either.

    Halflings can not only romance Aerie, they can romance Viconia and Jaheira as well.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    AHF said:

    elminster said:

    Also gnomes can romance Aerie in BG2. Halflings only have the new characters. So there are subtle differences between the two for players to choose either.

    Halflings can not only romance Aerie, they can romance Viconia and Jaheira as well.
    I stand corrected :D
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    Looking at how the non-human races evolved over the history of D&D editions, the restrictions are not surprising.

    In the original D&D, non-human races were essentially classes: all dwarves were fighters, elves were essentially fighter/magic-users, and halfings were fighter/thieves.

    In AD&D (1st Ed.), things opened up a little, but still only half-elf and half-orc PCs could be clerics (clerics of other non-human races were strictly NPCs).

    So, look at 2nd edition as an further loosening of the racial restrictions originally imposed.
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    Mathmick said:

    Because multiclass racial restrictions were decided with a d20 roll against a number depending on how absurd the combination sounds.

    This explains so much...

    And I think a natural 20 was achieved on Elf Druid, because elves totally do not have anything to do with nature.
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  • FrecheFreche Member Posts: 473
    edited July 2013

    In Keeper, can you select a class or multi-class that's normally not allowed for your race? I'd play a half-elf cleric/thief if I could! :)

    In Keeper;
    Open up your character.
    Select the Characteristics tab.
    Change Class to desired combo.
    Apply kit if you want one.
    Save.
    Start character and don't forget to level up.
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  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    You don't have to import them. You can modify a save game file. If messing with a kit, I recommend lowering the character to level 0, stripping out what you have already gotten, and then leveling up. If you simply change a character to a a kit then you miss out on the level 1 abilities. If you strip the character down to level 0 (for example, you need to remove HPs, proficiencies, thieving skills, etc. so you don't double dip) and then level up, you will capture everything. You can make any kind of multi-class, kit, etc. with any race through Keeper that is allowed by the engine (i.e., you can make a human multiclass fighter/mage because there is a F/M but you can't make a druid/mage because there isn't a valid druid/mage combo for any race).
  • WispWisp Member Posts: 1,102
    edited July 2013
    AHF said:

    and then level up, you will capture everything.

    You don't get quite everything. Doing the level 0 thing doesn't get you the correct number of proficiencies or thief skills. (Or so I've heard.)
  • CactusCactus Member Posts: 152
    If you chance your race, be aware that shorty saves don't ajust. Lets say you create a gnome and chance it to a dwarf or halfling, then you will manually have to apply the +5 save vs. death (at 18CON).
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    edited July 2013
    Wisp said:

    AHF said:

    and then level up, you will capture everything.

    You don't get quite everything. Doing the level 0 thing doesn't get you the correct number of proficiencies or thief skills. (Or so I've heard.)
    If you do it like I described, you will get everything as if you created a "valid" class from the beginning. I have done this many times with Keeper to play around with kitted multi-classes or illegal race/class combinations.

    To get the correct number of proficiencies and thief skills (and hit points), the worry is more about making sure you remove the ones the character starts with so you don't double dip.
  • CactusCactus Member Posts: 152
    @AHF I get 25 skills to distribute if I set level to 0 and then level to 1, while I get 40 at character creation...
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    Cactus said:

    @AHF I get 25 skills to distribute if I set level to 0 and then level to 1, while I get 40 at character creation...

    I just tested converting a cleric to thief and cleric to fighter. You are right about the thief skill poitns with the EEKeeper. To simplify things, I would then wait to strip out HPs, proficiencies, etc. and add in the extra 15 skill points in one step after you have converted the character.

    The much more complicated fix is if you don't go to level zero and you miss out on the inherent class bonuses like the Kensai bonus to AC or the Assassin's ability to poison. Skill points and proficiencies are simple to correct with EEKeeper.

    (As an aside, proficiencies worked perfectly in those two cases).
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