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Soundset v. Personality

I've always felt like Imoen's soundset in BG2 doesn't fit her personality. In the first game, she's cheerful, carefree, adventurous. In BG2, her plot-dialogue is dark - and rightfully so. After being tortured by Irenicus (and having her soul stolen), she is fascinated with death and has a pretty grim outlook. And yet, her soundset is still pretty cheery.

When selecting her, she'll respond with the normal "Yep" or "What'cha want?" Not as bright as in BG1, but not very grim, either. Her idle banter, she'll even say something like how she missed adventuring with CHARNAME because she forgot how fun it was. After she had her soul stolen. Seems silly to me. She could have had two soundsets like Edwin. Not a big deal, of course. Just always jumped out at me.

Any others strike anyone?

Comments

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    So, the problem is that she isn't outwardly grimdark? There are Warhammer 40K games, you know.
  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    Totally agree, @Permidion_Stark

    @Schneidend I dunno, I don't necessarily WANT her to be grim, but it's kind of weird when you get a banter with her and she's talking about death being pretty or groaning because her soul was taken, and then you tell her to do something and she says "Right as rain."
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,861
    @rdarken

    I think you've got a point. Unfortunately, they made Imoen into more of a plot device than a character in BG2. It's quite weird because there were obviously people working on the game who had an affection for the original character (the few banters she is given do sound like her http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Baldur's_Gate_series#Various_Quotes ) but as you say, these sound out of place coming out of the mouth of someone who has been tortured incessantly.

    But then I do think that BG2 is like one of those Hollywood blockbusters that is written by a committee. It's big, it's flashy and it is very, very long. But it doesn't have the heart of the indie original they were cashing in on.
  • ThunderSoulThunderSoul Member Posts: 125
    rdarken said:

    I've always felt like Imoen's soundset in BG2 doesn't fit her personality. In the first game, she's cheerful, carefree, adventurous. In BG2, her plot-dialogue is dark - and rightfully so. After being tortured by Irenicus (and having her soul stolen), she is fascinated with death and has a pretty grim outlook. And yet, her soundset is still pretty cheery.

    When selecting her, she'll respond with the normal "Yep" or "What'cha want?" Not as bright as in BG1, but not very grim, either. Her idle banter, she'll even say something like how she missed adventuring with CHARNAME because she forgot how fun it was. After she had her soul stolen. Seems silly to me. She could have had two soundsets like Edwin. Not a big deal, of course. Just always jumped out at me.

    Any others strike anyone?

    I completely disagree with you. She got her soul back (or some of it) and she is cheerful enough most likely because she is strong (child of Bhaal) and she is back in good company. She's not the usual puss you are used to dealing with, a.k.a. weak females that break down and cry or turn emo for any tiny reason.
  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,438

    Personally I'm glad they didn't make her sound more miserable because it depresses me when she is miserable at all.

    The writers succeeded in making a character that I care about, too. And again, if there were the option to bodily drag Irenicus through each Lower Plane and sub-plane thereof, I would go for it. I would also drag him through alternate Lower Planes, including the really nasty ones from Mongoose Entertainment books, where the final layer of the Abyss is alive.

    What were we...oh, yes. Who knows, maybe girlfriend got kicked off her hinges by Dweebie the Former Elf. D:
  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    Great post, @Kaeloree :)
  • blackchimesblackchimes Member Posts: 323
    I just wanted to point out that:
    - What Irenicus does to Charname and Imoen isn't torture, it's experiments that (maybe always, maybe not) happen to be painful
    - Imoen doesn't lose her soul until Asylum, and you lose yours soon after and remain rather unfazed by it

    So yeh. Real answer? They didn't bother/care with changing her soundset. Explanation answer? While Irenicus' Lab is not exactly first on my vacation resorts list, you might be overestimating the effects.
  • LiamEslerLiamEsler Member Posts: 1,859
    edited August 2013
    @blackchimes I would say it's pretty clear in the game that Irenicus uses torture as a way to bring out the Bhaalspawn's power, and Imoen (and the dryads) hint at other, more unusual experimental methods. The way that Imoen speaks at the beginning of BG2, it's pretty clear she's been pretty thoroughly traumatised! :D
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,344

    I just wanted to point out that:
    - What Irenicus does to Charname and Imoen isn't torture, it's experiments that (maybe always, maybe not) happen to be painful

    That's a nice distinction. Are you by any chance a lawyer for the CIA?
    Haha, that's what I thought of too. While it's by all accounts true that Irenicus doesn't do it for the sake of causing pain, nor derives any pleasure from it, the treatment in and of itself is definitely presented as torture.

  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    Technically I don't think they so much removed the soul as much as just the part of it that is related to Bhaal... Which for Imoen didn't have any real effect because she just barely knew it was there because of being told about it...

    For CHARNAME on the other hand... Being possibly the most powerful Bhaalspawn, he/she kept the powers, but he/she pretty much had absolutely no control over it, thus the whole Slayer change... If left alone, he/she would most likely just become an unstoppable insane killing machine.
  • LiamEslerLiamEsler Member Posts: 1,859
    edited August 2013
    @Kaltzor The way I interpret it--

    Irenicus took Imoen and CHARNAME's (divine) souls in order to replace the souls that he and Bodhi had taken from them by the Seldarine. The Bhaal essence manifesting itself more powerfully in CHARNAME and Imoen is something of an unintended side-effect of their soullessness, as evidenced by Bodhi in the maze when she exclaims surprise at the Slayer.

    It's explained that without their soul, a person begins to die (and, I believe it's implied in a few places, lose their sanity). Bodhi turned to vampirism in an attempt to stave this off, and it worked for a while, but not as effectively as she'd hoped. Irenicus turned to power, but that was also ineffective. He realised they required replacement souls, but not any soul would do: they needed divine souls.

    I could be wrong, but from what I gather, Irenicus' experiments were about coaxing the divine essence to the surface, so that he could take it--but at the beginning of the game he has not perfected the method by which he can do this. By the time the PC gets to Spellhold, their divine essence has come forth, as Irenicus has brought Imoen's forth, and he is able to entrap their souls and contain them within his and Bodhi's bodies, thus effectively ending their death sentence.

    The Bhaal essence only really begins to take charge after the PC has their soul removed, as evidenced by the Slayer in the maze. Although Irenicus took Imoen and the PC's souls, their Bhaal essence is still within them--and without their souls in the way, can manifest in more and more powerful and frightening ways.

    EDIT to remove < > tags around CHARNAME, since they won't display here!
  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    I read something recently, can't remember where, but it said the torturing of Imoen / making her watch as he killed Khalid was to bring her Bhaal essence out. Her carefree attitude had suppressed it, which is why no one knew she was Bhaalspawn. This is also why she never became the Slayer.
  • ojthesimpsonojthesimpson Member Posts: 121
    do sound set mods from baldurs gate 1 work on BGee ? I am really inexperienced with modding but I want to use all the different features on BGee with some basic mods I've read about it. It's crazy all this modding is out there for a game that's 15 years old.
  • redlineredline Member Posts: 296
    edited August 2013
    rdarken said:

    Totally agree, @Permidion_Stark

    @Schneidend I dunno, I don't necessarily WANT her to be grim, but it's kind of weird when you get a banter with her and she's talking about death being pretty or groaning because her soul was taken, and then you tell her to do something and she says "Right as rain."

    I always felt like the BG2 sound set worked because, even when the words themselves are identical to her BG1 lines, BG2 Imoen just generally sounds more... tired, I suppose. It's cheery on the surface, but the experiences of BG2 have taken a fair bit of the edge off of her sugary-sweet BG1 personality.

    She's not totally broken, obviously, but sounds pretty worn down to me, and that makes me hear the chipper "right as rain " stuff as being more forced, kind of like @Kaeloree says the mod portrays her (though I'm not sure if "manic" is really how I'd see the character, but I might give the mod a look-see as it sounds promising nonetheless).

    Not to say that's what the writers had in mind, though... a person can go way overboard trying to be an apologist for poorly planned writing, and I try to avoid that at all costs. At the very least, though, it's a convenient coincidence, so BG2 Imoen never really bothered me.
    Post edited by redline on
  • RedGuardRedGuard Member Posts: 672
    I don't think I'd be able to put up with Imoen in BG2 if her soundset were changed to match her story arc in that game. I like her as a character, but she's too depressing at times.
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,861
    For me the problem lies not so much in the way her character is written but in the way that she was used in the plot. One of the first times I ever tried DMing a game of D&D I set up an elaborate plot which started with one of the players being informed that an NPC he ran alongside his player character had been kidnapped (the NPC in question was basically his player character's girlfriend). I thought this would be a great way to start an adventure and confidently expected all the players would be excited at the prospect of going to rescue the damsel in distress. I couldn't have been more wrong. The player character was mad as hell and the other players agreed with him. They wanted to know how the NPC had been kidnapped and why they hadn't been able to do anything to stop it. They felt cheated by the way I had engineered the situation and the result was that they didn't want to play the scenario.

    As a DM, it taught me a valuable lesson, you can't just arbitrarily decide what happens to player characters or their NPCs and if they feel they have got no control of the story they are going to be mightily pissed off.

    Which is exactly how I felt when I woke up in Irenicus's dungeon.
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,344
    @Permidion_Stark I don't see how you can have both a story-driven game and have the player(s) call all the shots though. In PnP where a DM can adjust to every situation on the fly it might work out to some degree, but in a CRPG with a plot there are things that just have to happen - and then some measure of control has to be taken away from the player.

    I can understand if you feel the BG2 setup was too ham-fisted or unfair for your tastes, but the plot mechanic in itself still has to be there in some form. Otherwise you might as well oppose being forced to drink from the grey warden goblet in DAO, not being able to save the Normandy in ME2 (or Gorion in BG1 for that matter) or any number of other setups.
  • MilesBeyondMilesBeyond Member Posts: 324
    I think Valygar sums up this whole discussion admirably when he says to Imoen:

    "For someone who supposedly has her soul tainted by the evil of a dead god, you remind me considerably of a chipmunk with a sugar high and a death wish."
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,861
    Shin said:

    @Permidion_Stark I don't see how you can have both a story-driven game and have the player(s) call all the shots though. In PnP where a DM can adjust to every situation on the fly it might work out to some degree, but in a CRPG with a plot there are things that just have to happen - and then some measure of control has to be taken away from the player.

    I can understand if you feel the BG2 setup was too ham-fisted or unfair for your tastes, but the plot mechanic in itself still has to be there in some form. Otherwise you might as well oppose being forced to drink from the grey warden goblet in DAO, not being able to save the Normandy in ME2 (or Gorion in BG1 for that matter) or any number of other setups.

    I'm not arguing that the players should call all the shots. I'm arguing that things that directly affect them shouldn't happen off-screen. If I am going to be taken prisoner and thrown into a dungeon I want to be there when it happens. You can set the fight up so there is no way I can win - I'm fine with that. What I don't like is being told that I lost a fight that I didn't even know was taking place. Similarly, if you are going to take Imoen off me because you have come up with a plot that needs her to be abducted don't set it up so I stand there doing nothing. If I'm not allowed to do anything then at least have the decency to throw a hold person spell at me (and cheat my saving roll so I automatically fail).

    Of course Baldur's Gate is story-driven but for me the start of BG2 seems like one of those games that is more fun for the GM than the players.
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,344
    Yeah, fair enough. RP-wise there are several plausible reasons as to why you can't defend Imoen more actively, but with the cutscenes not able to show any more detail than the party just standing there, it could have been improved upon.
  • blackchimesblackchimes Member Posts: 323

    I just wanted to point out that:
    - What Irenicus does to Charname and Imoen isn't torture, it's experiments that (maybe always, maybe not) happen to be painful

    That's a nice distinction. Are you by any chance a lawyer for the CIA?
    That is a career option I have not considered, I will now!

    What I meant is, torture has much, much higher capacity for pain than medical experiments, simply because medical experiments don't always have to be painful and have varying levels of pain, while the only point of torture is to deliver maximum pain for as long as possible.
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