Back to the topic of 'exotic weapons'. I would LOVE IT if BG 3 was set in Kara-tur, where Scimitar, Katana, 'Dao', 'Ji', 'Jian' and other Shou-Lung weapons are considered 'standard', and things like 'Full-Plate Mail' and 'Bastard Sword' are considered exotic foreign imports
It could be based roughly on the same time, perhaps charting the story of a Bhaalspawn born in Shou-Lung, and how his actions affected the course of history in Kara-tur.
All of which would be fine if blackchimes had said anything along those lines. He didn't. He made a reasoned argument and whether you agree with it or not to accuse him of racism was pretty unforgivable and frankly I think you owe him an apology.
No, I'm afraid not. The idea that, in a world where the equivalent of Japan is physically attached to the equivalent of mainland Europe and the Middle East and yet somehow katana are super out of place and should be impossibly rare is patently ridiculous. The same kind of logistical problems that make katana in an actual medieval European setting not possible simply don't exist in Forgotten Realms. So, seeing as there is no real logical basis here, I have to assume there's an illogical one.
Honestly, this isn't the place for making mountains out of molehills. Instead of accusing people of being racist or xenophobic, you could just offer the explanation you just gave.
Katanas and similar weapons are supposed to be rare on the Sword Coast because, by and large, the people on the Sword Coast use Long Swords instead. If the vast majority of your clientele are using long swords, you're not going to keep a heavy stock of katanas. For the few people who do want them, you raise the price accordingly.
All of which would be fine if blackchimes had said anything along those lines. He didn't. He made a reasoned argument and whether you agree with it or not to accuse him of racism was pretty unforgivable and frankly I think you owe him an apology.
No, I'm afraid not. The idea that, in a world where the equivalent of Japan is physically attached to the equivalent of mainland Europe and the Middle East and yet somehow katana are super out of place and should be impossibly rare is patently ridiculous. The same kind of logistical problems that make katana in an actual medieval European setting not possible simply don't exist in Forgotten Realms. So, seeing as there is no real logical basis here, I have to assume there's an illogical one.
Except that the game goes out of its way to state that katanas are rare. From the weapon proficiency description: "These weapons are hard to find outside Kara-tur [...]". From the katana item description: "For a gaijin, or foreigner, to own such a blade is a rare occurrence."
All of which would be fine if blackchimes had said anything along those lines. He didn't. He made a reasoned argument and whether you agree with it or not to accuse him of racism was pretty unforgivable and frankly I think you owe him an apology.
No, I'm afraid not. The idea that, in a world where the equivalent of Japan is physically attached to the equivalent of mainland Europe and the Middle East and yet somehow katana are super out of place and should be impossibly rare is patently ridiculous. The same kind of logistical problems that make katana in an actual medieval European setting not possible simply don't exist in Forgotten Realms. So, seeing as there is no real logical basis here, I have to assume there's an illogical one.
I'm somewhat confused. How exactly is the placement of Wa on the FR map all that different from the placement of Japan on our own? Wa is an island of not-Japanese that is close to a nation of not-Chinese and separated from not-Europe by a bunch of not-Mongols. I could buy the "A wizard did it" defense(even if it is a cop out), but you are basing your fairly offensive retort on logic that does not exist.
So, seeing as there is no real logical basis here, I have to assume there's an illogical one.
Man... I thought u had just made an ill considered comment that was badly phrased, but now you r actually trying to defend your absurd position. I think u r just being defiant cos u dont wanna admit u were wrong. Frankly it just makes u look even more silly.
You disagreed with OP's initial point, which is debatable, and somehow jumps to a very far-fetched conclusion and accuse him of something serious, and expect everyone to accept your allegation?!
In science (and common sense), the rejection of one hypothesis does not mean the unconditional acceptance of an alternative hypothesis.
Ah, veiled racism and xenophobia. It's been a while. Now we just need a thread about how female characters obviously should have -1 Strength or be unable to roll Fighter.
Did you know Morrowind started certain race Males with 10 more Strength and Endurance than Females? Females got more Speed, Intelligence, and Personality.
They reverted back to the "All genders are equally good" motto in Oblivion and Skyrim, but it made a certain sense to me that men and women started with stereotypical benefits.
That was the only point I wanted to bring up, I don't really want to comment on the Racism remark.
Also, anyone who thinks women should start off with 10 more personality points doesn't know my ex-wife.
Do you remember the mod that installed the cursed katana for dropping off a moronic human? He and his friend wanted to chop down a majestic tree that a Dryad was protecting?
I think it was Unfinished Business, but I'm not sure. Anyway, I'm all for magical katanas that have a negative side to them as well. Perhaps a 10% chance to do damage to yourself on attack, as the soul inside the sword hungers for blood? Kind-of like Backbiter, but less extreme.
Do you remember the mod that installed the cursed katana for dropping off a moronic human? He and his friend wanted to chop down a majestic tree that a Dryad was protecting?
Ah, right! I knew it wasn't vanilla, but I have so many fixpacks and tweaks installed, I honestly forgot which one it was! Also, you are awesome. And thank you for doing so much work with the series.
You can legally start with a katana from Candlekeep if your starting gold is 140 or more, you complete all of the quests, sell everything not bolted to the ground (including guard house chest contents), and murder Fuller (with weapons you find) for his 90 gold, plate, and +1 dagger (which must be ID for it to be sold. If you do all of that you can buy that Katana for 950 gold (lowered rep) and have enough left for a helmet and buckler shield but nothing else. So it's plenty tough, costly, and risky starting with on right out of the gate, unless of course you can pick that lock with the diamond inside.
Finally! - a sensible post in this thread!
Katanas cost an arm and a leg to buy - that supports the argument that they are rare along the Sword Coast, and also counterbalances the fact that they are so powerful.
Perhaps slightly OT, but this explains why katanas are rightfully OP (and correspondingly expensive) in BG:
Yup. The folded steel and curve of the blade is superior to anything we could have come up with at the time. It made our longswords and broadswords look like toys. Still, I'm a firm believer that every weapon has it's place in a battle. Halberds are perfect for unseating cavalry, and any crushing weapon like a properly used flail could impact rigid armor with enough force to break ribs and damage internal organs. The centrifugal force of a flail when wound up, and the user's body weight could easily buckle heavy armor.
The thing about rigid armor like banded or splint mail is that the wearer can move with the blow, and a slash would run along the curve, effectively reducing the impact to a glancing blow. Any sword can pierce through rigid armor if thrusted, and the invention of crossbows didn't help.
Also, any lengthy weapon like a longsword or katana would be unwieldy in a confined space, allowing weapons like short swords, like the gladius, to have an advantage. Alternatively, the superior reach of a spear or pike would render the katana less effective in open combat.
@SharGuidesMyHand hahaha, those videos are kindda hard to take seriously due to testosterone spilling out their ears =D (no offense intended, very entertaining). Im very doubtful that the quality of the long sword there is the same as the katana.
Would be nice to have some sort of scientific test where the bulding materials and everything was the same, but the way it is, it seems very difficult to generally state that the katana is better than the long sword or vice versa. Due to some longswords/katanas being very well made, others badly made or, different usage might mean better use in some circumstances but not in others and so on.
They look cool tho. And of course their attributes in BGEE are perfectly fine (because it's a game) ^^
@SharGuidesMyHand hahaha, those videos are kindda hard to take seriously due to testosterone spilling out their ears =D (no offense intended, very entertaining). Im very doubtful that the quality of the long sword there is the same as the katana. ^^
You've nailed it there.
I'm all for 'Asian things' and Shogun 2 Total War is the only game I have spent longer on than BG + BG 2 (so far), but the widespread love-ins for samurai and ninja and all things associated with them is very much a product of popular mass-culture, with movies, video games and literature all glorifying how honourable/deadly/awesome those warriors were and how amazing their swords were.
The truth is that in many cases samurai were just local warlords or thugs that held power in a particular region of Japan, which due to its mountainous and island terrain, made direct central administration and bureaucracy (like the Chinese Empire or the Roman Empire) nearly impossible until the industrial age.
The amazing katana swords often glorified in popular culture are usually the best weapons manufactured for a military aristocracy, as opposed to mass-produced weapons to equip an army. Also, forging techniques continued to improve with time, so a 17th century katana is likely to better than a 15th century katana, and obviously it would be unfair to compair it to a 15th century long sword mass-produced for an European army.
If you pit an European knight against a Japanese samurai in single combat with their standard equipment. The victor will likely depend on the skill and experience of the warriors involved and the circumstances of the combat, not whose sword is sharper/cooler.
I'd say the question of whether 'in real life' the long sword or the katana is better, given the many variables and possible definitions of 'better', is largely a pointless one. With regards to BG however, I would agree that it does appear a bit over-powered. I would love for the strength and weaknesses of different weapon types to play a larger role, though that may be difficult to achieve. But at least for the katana the solution seems simple: make it a two-handed weapon. As far as I'm aware, in the real world, it actually *is* a two-handed weapon, it's not really the sword&shield kind of weapon. I seem to recall the Japanese never having much in the way of shields at all, actually.
Please, folks. We've had several discussions about the merits of katanas vs. other weapons--let's not derail another topic, and get back to how awesome BG2 Tweaks is.
Maybe a stupid question, but do you happen to know if BG2:EE is being programmed to add any of your tweaks as vanilla options? Helmet-less animations/Weapon Animation Tweaks/Higher Hp on level up?
Maybe a stupid question, but do you happen to know if BG2:EE is being programmed to add any of your tweaks as vanilla options? Helmet-less animations/Weapon Animation Tweaks/Higher Hp on level up?
Also, curved swords. CURVED. SWORDS.
~Ascerion
All dialogue will now pause the game, so that's in, otherwise not really. My offer for Exotic Items and Map Notes to be used as the EE baseline was too late, which is why EE went with their own solution--though we would have ended up with more katanas even if it had been. Sensible Entrance Points is actually stuff I did for EE that's going in the other direction. The various fixes are also in by virtue of the inclusion of the BG2 Fixpack.
Honestly, most of Tweaks is exactly what's on the box--tweaks. I'm not advocating for inclusion of any of it, but if I did, I'd go for:
Weapon Animation Tweaks - The most egregious offender is spears, which are already addressed by the inclusion of the Fixpack.
Icon Improvements - Being able to tell leather from studded leather, chain from elven chain, etc.
Rebalanced Weapon Profs - These just make a lot more sense to me but, then again, they should since I picked and coded them.
The altered cleric kit alignments (and by extension, the strongholds), originally from Oversight and later Divine Remix, would also make more sense. The kits are allowed the deity's alignment plus one step out, so no more CN Watchers or LE Stormlords.
Comments
It could be based roughly on the same time, perhaps charting the story of a Bhaalspawn born in Shou-Lung, and how his actions affected the course of history in Kara-tur.
Something tells me this will never happen though
Katanas and similar weapons are supposed to be rare on the Sword Coast because, by and large, the people on the Sword Coast use Long Swords instead. If the vast majority of your clientele are using long swords, you're not going to keep a heavy stock of katanas. For the few people who do want them, you raise the price accordingly.
https://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/10763/add-katanas-to-traders
You disagreed with OP's initial point, which is debatable, and somehow jumps to a very far-fetched conclusion and accuse him of something serious, and expect everyone to accept your allegation?!
In science (and common sense), the rejection of one hypothesis does not mean the unconditional acceptance of an alternative hypothesis.
Females got more Speed, Intelligence, and Personality.
They reverted back to the "All genders are equally good" motto in Oblivion and Skyrim, but it made a certain sense to me that men and women started with stereotypical benefits.
That was the only point I wanted to bring up, I don't really want to comment on the Racism remark.
Also, anyone who thinks women should start off with 10 more personality points doesn't know my ex-wife.
~Ascerion
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/13950/move-the-katana-sold-in-baldur-s-gate-to-thunderhammer-smithy
I think any way you approach this issue someone will disagree with how its handled. I say leave it as is.
Do you remember the mod that installed the cursed katana for dropping off a moronic human? He and his friend wanted to chop down a majestic tree that a Dryad was protecting?
I think it was Unfinished Business, but I'm not sure. Anyway, I'm all for magical katanas that have a negative side to them as well. Perhaps a 10% chance to do damage to yourself on attack, as the soul inside the sword hungers for blood? Kind-of like Backbiter, but less extreme.
Ah, right! I knew it wasn't vanilla, but I have so many fixpacks and tweaks installed, I honestly forgot which one it was! Also, you are awesome. And thank you for doing so much work with the series.
~Ascerion
Katanas cost an arm and a leg to buy - that supports the argument that they are rare along the Sword Coast, and also counterbalances the fact that they are so powerful.
Yup. The folded steel and curve of the blade is superior to anything we could have come up with at the time. It made our longswords and broadswords look like toys. Still, I'm a firm believer that every weapon has it's place in a battle. Halberds are perfect for unseating cavalry, and any crushing weapon like a properly used flail could impact rigid armor with enough force to break ribs and damage internal organs. The centrifugal force of a flail when wound up, and the user's body weight could easily buckle heavy armor.
The thing about rigid armor like banded or splint mail is that the wearer can move with the blow, and a slash would run along the curve, effectively reducing the impact to a glancing blow. Any sword can pierce through rigid armor if thrusted, and the invention of crossbows didn't help.
Also, any lengthy weapon like a longsword or katana would be unwieldy in a confined space, allowing weapons like short swords, like the gladius, to have an advantage. Alternatively, the superior reach of a spear or pike would render the katana less effective in open combat.
~Ascerion
Would be nice to have some sort of scientific test where the bulding materials and everything was the same, but the way it is, it seems very difficult to generally state that the katana is better than the long sword or vice versa. Due to some longswords/katanas being very well made, others badly made or, different usage might mean better use in some circumstances but not in others and so on.
They look cool tho. And of course their attributes in BGEE are perfectly fine (because it's a game) ^^
I'm all for 'Asian things' and Shogun 2 Total War is the only game I have spent longer on than BG + BG 2 (so far), but the widespread love-ins for samurai and ninja and all things associated with them is very much a product of popular mass-culture, with movies, video games and literature all glorifying how honourable/deadly/awesome those warriors were and how amazing their swords were.
The truth is that in many cases samurai were just local warlords or thugs that held power in a particular region of Japan, which due to its mountainous and island terrain, made direct central administration and bureaucracy (like the Chinese Empire or the Roman Empire) nearly impossible until the industrial age.
The amazing katana swords often glorified in popular culture are usually the best weapons manufactured for a military aristocracy, as opposed to mass-produced weapons to equip an army. Also, forging techniques continued to improve with time, so a 17th century katana is likely to better than a 15th century katana, and obviously it would be unfair to compair it to a 15th century long sword mass-produced for an European army.
If you pit an European knight against a Japanese samurai in single combat with their standard equipment. The victor will likely depend on the skill and experience of the warriors involved and the circumstances of the combat, not whose sword is sharper/cooler.
Maybe a stupid question, but do you happen to know if BG2:EE is being programmed to add any of your tweaks as vanilla options? Helmet-less animations/Weapon Animation Tweaks/Higher Hp on level up?
Also, curved swords. CURVED. SWORDS.
~Ascerion
Honestly, most of Tweaks is exactly what's on the box--tweaks. I'm not advocating for inclusion of any of it, but if I did, I'd go for:
Weapon Animation Tweaks - The most egregious offender is spears, which are already addressed by the inclusion of the Fixpack.
Icon Improvements - Being able to tell leather from studded leather, chain from elven chain, etc.
Rebalanced Weapon Profs - These just make a lot more sense to me but, then again, they should since I picked and coded them.
The altered cleric kit alignments (and by extension, the strongholds), originally from Oversight and later Divine Remix, would also make more sense. The kits are allowed the deity's alignment plus one step out, so no more CN Watchers or LE Stormlords.
PNP ALL THE THINGS!
I created a katana 2d6+4 today!