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The proliferation of exotic items in BG:EE

I can understand one or two magic katanas making their way to the Sword Coast, but seeing katanas, wakizashis, etc. for sale in every shop is just silly.

BG2 tweak pack had a component that added exotic items(that is, BG2-specific items) to Baldur's Gate. Here's the list:
http://forums.pocketplane.net/index.php?topic=27711.0

Yes, that is *all* you got in the entire game. You started with proficiency with only katanas and nothing else? Too bad, you will suck until Firewine Bridge.

Now I understand that Overhaul Games wanted to avoid that very issue(that is "punishing" players for picking "wrong" proficiency). But is jamming every shop full of items that are only manufactured on the other side of the world really the answer? Even in Baldur's Gate 2 the original description of the katana warned of its rarity.

Also, let's face it: katanas are pretty overpowered as it is. They're single-handed weapons that match some of two-handed weapons in damage and have one of the best speed factors in the game. If you also make them available in every store, why would anyone ever pick another weapon to specialize in? Katanas need to be rare to balance their power. It's the same reason why you don't see every store selling +3 weapons. Well at least not until ToB, but then you're tripping over them anyway so it's a non-issue.


Instead, Ogre Mages could all be given normal katanas. That would make them rare but still obtainable. Feldepost's Inn could sell a few wakizashis and ninja-to's, since it's supposed to store "trophy" items. Finally, as a side note, all these should be unbreakable(since they're not smithed on Sword Coast, so the iron crisis doesn't apply to them).
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Comments

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited August 2013
    I don't think its silly. If you were a shop owner and you could get your hands on a weapon that wouldn't break, when the rest of your products were breaking, wouldn't you?
  • ogrebogreb Member Posts: 98
    elminster said:

    I don't think its silly. If you were a shop owner and you could get your hands on a weapon that wouldn't break, when the rest of your products were breaking, wouldn't you?

    Wow your fast !
    I thought I was the first response...but ninjaed.
    Do you have a Gem of Foresight or something ?

  • ogrebogreb Member Posts: 98
    lol
  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,438
    IT BEGINS
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    edited August 2013
    Actually this is an interesting question. How 'realistic' it is to discover Eastern weapons so regularly in the Sword Coast depends on the nature of the world of Abeir-Toril.

    If we equate Aber-Toril with Middle Ages Earth, then the abundance of katana and ninja-to in BG EE and BG 2 is ridiculous. Most of the major cities of Mediterranean coast were trading cities, but I doubt you could've found a single common smithy in Rome, Venice or Constantinople selling genuine Japanese-crafted katana in the 1400s. It is also entirely arbitrary (for the sake of mostly Western audiences familiar with samurai and ninjas) that most of the 'exotic' weapons that show up in BG EE and BG 2 are actually Japanese inspired weapons that would have originated from Kozakura and Wa, and not the China-inspired Shou-Lung Empire or T'u Ling, which is much larger, with (presumably) a much larger manufacturing capacity and trade presence, and comparatively closer to Faerun.

    However, Aber-Toril is a world of magic, where teleportation, flight and even plane-travel is reasonably common place, where gods, demons and angels walk amongst mortals, and an entire underworld stretches miles beneath the surface. Hence even though I think I read that Abeir-Toril is supposed to be about the same size as Earth, it is clearly much better 'connected' compared to Earth in the 1400s. In fact the abundance of magic shrinks distances in Abeir-Toril much like modern industrial and digital technology does so in the modern world, where people can communicate across vast distances at an instant, and travel across the world in 24 hours, and the manufactures of China can be found pretty much everywhere in the world.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Ah, veiled racism and xenophobia. It's been a while. Now we just need a thread about how female characters obviously should have -1 Strength or be unable to roll Fighter.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    edited August 2013

    Ah, veiled racism and xenophobia. It's been a while. Now we just need a thread about how female characters obviously should have -1 Strength or be unable to roll Fighter.

    ... Wow, are you looking to start a flame war or what?
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    Katanas are not overpowered. Good damage? Yes. Overpowered? Heck no! So what if you can dual wield them? The sword itself has nowhere near the effect on damage as the wielder does! Take a half-orc for instance... 19 strength adds 7, I repeat, 7 damage to any weapon!!!! A katana only does 2 damage better than a long sword! And what if that half-orc is a kensai? We are talking +4 for proficiency ****, +2 for being a level 8 kensai, and +7 for the strength! That means we have +13 damage (that is more than a katana can even do alone) all just from the wielder and that can apply to any weapon!!! Katanas are not overpowered period.
  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,438
    edited August 2013
    Tresset said:

    Katanas are not overpowered. Good damage? Yes. Overpowered? Heck no! So what if you can dual wield them? The sword itself has nowhere near the effect on damage as the wielder does! Take a half-orc for instance... 19 strength adds 7, I repeat, 7 damage to any weapon!!!! A katana only does 2 damage better than a long sword! And what if that half-orc is a kensai? We are talking +4 for proficiency ****, +2 for being a level 8 kensai, and +7 for the strength! That means we have +13 damage (that is more than a katana can even do alone) all just from the wielder and that can apply to any weapon!!! Katanas are not overpowered period.

    WTB no-dachi. Then I would make a half-orc kensai.
    GROK SWING MIGHTY KARA-TUR SWORD

    Any gripe I have with kuh-tannas stems from The Immortal. Not Highlander, but The Immortal. ...Valygar's is cool, though. And Yoshimo's. MacLeod's is, too, but Cain's...Cain's makes Grok sad. And SCARY_WIZARD. :(
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    @Schneidend
    A few specific nations or religions aside, either gender can be anything, and while females tend to being physically weaker then males, exceptions do exist.


    @Heindrich1988
    Grossly overstating. While Forgotten Realms does tend to have higher level characters on average then other settings, it's still VERY rare to see a character above 8 or 9. And even then, those that are, are part god, favored of a god, REALLY old, or been extending their lives much longer then they by all rights should've lived etc. By level 9, the average adventurer has earned enough gold and reputation to get a cushy day job, or even have land holdings in their own right to manage. And once so retired, they almost never level-up beyond that simply due to a lack of xp sources (Only thieves, bards, and mages have enough significant extra xp sources that they can realistically progress while in "retirement", fighters and priests just don't get enough opportunities from day to day to gain significant xp). Paladin are about the only class that generally never retires unless they have no other choice, because due to age or injury they can no longer effectively serve their god in the field and are better spent training a new generation with their accumulated wisdom.



    An adventuring party is the exception, rather then the rule.


    And keep in mind, Kara-tur, from which oriental style weapons and such hail is a low magic setting (+3 items are as rare as +5 items are SUPPOSED to be in FR), even though it's nominally part of the Forgotten Realms (Lvl 10 is their lvl 20, and lvl 15 is their lvl 30, as far as how rare it is for people to reach it). Their residents generally practice Ki disciplines (a feature unique to those who have been initiated into their ways and can be learned by pretty much any class to achieve super-human feats a limited number of times per day), and look on anything besides divine magic with suspicion or outright hostility (they have a love/hate relationship with the various spirit beings of their lands, most of which have some measure of arcane power (Ogre magi being one of the most hated)). And much like the cultural time period they're based on, are EXTREMELY hostile to outsiders. It can take generations of buttering up to get into enough of a family's good graces to even suggest a trade agreement (also, even in Kara-tur, Katana don't fall off trees, and are extremely rare in general due to the skill required to make them (from the setting, not RL), god-forbid actually finding a magical one).
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268

    Tresset said:

    Katanas are not overpowered. Good damage? Yes. Overpowered? Heck no! So what if you can dual wield them? The sword itself has nowhere near the effect on damage as the wielder does! Take a half-orc for instance... 19 strength adds 7, I repeat, 7 damage to any weapon!!!! A katana only does 2 damage better than a long sword! And what if that half-orc is a kensai? We are talking +4 for proficiency ****, +2 for being a level 8 kensai, and +7 for the strength! That means we have +13 damage (that is more than a katana can even do alone) all just from the wielder and that can apply to any weapon!!! Katanas are not overpowered period.

    WTB no-dachi. Then I would make a half-orc kensai.
    GROK SWING MIGHTY KARA-TUR SWORD

    Any gripe I have with kuh-tannas stems from The Immortal. Not Highlander, but The Immortal. ...Valygar's is cool, though. And Yoshimo's. MacLeod's is, too, but Cain's...Cain's makes Grok sad. And SCARY_WIZARD. :(
    @SCARY_WIZARD ...Huh?
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268

    Ah, veiled racism and xenophobia. It's been a while. Now we just need a thread about how female characters obviously should have -1 Strength or be unable to roll Fighter.

    So any talk whatsoever about world cultures is veiled racism and xenophobia? I don't get it...
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited August 2013
    Well technically...unless you're specialized in katana, it's supposed have a -4 speed penalty when wielded with one hand. Using it one handed requires extra training over mere proficiency.
  • reedmilfamreedmilfam Member Posts: 2,808
    edited August 2013
    Quartz said:

    Ah, veiled racism and xenophobia. It's been a while. Now we just need a thread about how female characters obviously should have -1 Strength or be unable to roll Fighter.

    ... Wow, are you looking to start a flame war or what?
    Ugh. I think I puked in my mouth...

    Disclaimer: This is more at the prospect of seeing the whole fair/unfair women can/can't do this/that or should/shouldn't get scores that... blah. Thread derailment at its best...
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    edited August 2013
    lol... wow this thread went off on a tagent. No idea where Schneidend got his racism idea from... unless it was sarcasm lost in translation.

    In fact the BG games have impressed me with their cultural diversity. Sure the setting is mostly Middle Ages Europe, but there's a whole cast of NPCs representing other cultures. Minsc, Dynaheir, Yoshimo, Rassad and probably more that escape me just now. If anything the games also addresses racism and imperialism with the background info about Amnish crimes in Maztica, which very much resemble Portugese/Spanish conquest of the Americas, not to mention the portrayal of racism and intolerance between the different races of Faerun.


    Oh and encase the comment was directed at my comment in any way... dude, my portrait is an 'Asian' guy, and I am roleplaying an Asian guy in my BG 2 Let's Play. lol
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    I think they already are unbreakable.

    I can kill Skoal the Nerid and her ogre/mage body guard 15 minutes into the game to earn one. Very dangerous fight.

    You can legally start with a katana from Candlekeep if your starting gold is 140 or more, you complete all of the quests, sell everything not bolted to the ground (including guard house chest contents), and murder Fuller (with weapons you find) for his 90 gold, plate, and +1 dagger (which must be ID for it to be sold. If you do all of that you can buy that Katana for 950 gold (lowered rep) and have enough left for a helmet and buckler shield but nothing else. So it's plenty tough, costly, and risky starting with on right out of the gate, unless of course you can pick that lock with the diamond inside.

    So I am going to go out on a limb here and disagree. They ARE rare. Nobody else sells them in stores.

    I find it strange that katanas NON magical sell for 750 and the +1 version resales for only 500. 250 less than a +1 long sword resales for. ;?
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    Lateralus said:



    So I am going to go out on a limb here and disagree. They ARE rare. Nobody else sells them in stores.

    Not in BG 2. They are everywhere in BG 2.
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680
    While we are on the subject, the fact that short swords do less damage than long swords is a very clear and obvious denigration towards dwarfism. The phrase two-handed sword is very offensive to persons with one or less hands. And don't even get me started on bastard sword...
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    karnor00 said:

    While we are on the subject, the fact that short swords do less damage than long swords is a very clear and obvious denigration towards dwarfism. The phrase two-handed sword is very offensive to persons with one or less hands. And don't even get me started on bastard sword...

    You would hate the 3ed weapon size table rules :p
  • riyahhassettriyahhassett Member Posts: 59
    I think BG is dead on with available magic items. Wizards and cleric create magic items so it only makes sense that any magic items that a Mage or cleric can not use would be rare. Magical daggers, maces, war hammers, etc all require the lost of a constitution point to make per plus/ability. I hope that this trends in magic items continues . Magic daggers and quarter staffs should be way more common than magic swords. It seems reasonable that ogre mages are able to make magic katanas. The more powerful the ogre Mage the more powerful katanas. It would be cool to see more human style magic items that follow that same line of thinking. Like the way elves have eleven chain. Lets see some magic items just for dual class humans!
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    edited August 2013
    @Quartz
    @Tresset
    @ZanathKariashi
    @reedmilfam

    I was commenting on how threads like this one that boil down to the OP saying "get this weaboo crap outta my white-centric pseudo-medieval fantasy" are born out of latent racism or at least a snide resentment of the potent cultural impact (pop or otherwise) of Asian martial arts and weaponry. I was likening those negative sentiments to the numerous trolls and/or neanderthals we had in the numerous gender discussions on this forum like six months ago who blustered about insisting that women could not fight on equal footing or be as physically strong as their male counterparts.

    Evidently, the exact opposite is how my post was interpreted.
    Post edited by Schneidend on
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,861

    @Quartz
    @Tresset
    @ZanathKariashi
    @reedmilfam

    I was commenting on how threads like this one that boil down to the OP saying "get this weaboo crap outta my white-centric pseudo-medieval fantasy" are born out of latent racism or at least a snide resentment of the potent cultural impact (pop or otherwise) of Asian martial arts and weaponry. I was likening those negative sentiments to the numerous trolls and/or neanderthals we had in the numerous gender discussions on this forum like six months ago who blustered about insisting that women could not fight on equal footing or be as physically strong as their male counterparts.

    Evidently, the exact opposite is how my post was interpreted.

    All of which would be fine if blackchimes had said anything along those lines. He didn't. He made a reasoned argument and whether you agree with it or not to accuse him of racism was pretty unforgivable and frankly I think you owe him an apology.

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