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More Magical Questions

So, I'm lead to believe certain magical protections last hours: death ward, for example. If this is the case how do I check they're still active when I finish one battle and move on to the next? I know some are obvious but seemingly I end EVERY battle with no protections at all and no idea which enemy actually stripped them or even if it was someone in my own party trying to remove a spell nasty.

And realistically, do they last hours or do they just last one round until something or other strips all your protections with a dispel/remove spell?
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  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    I was pretty sure u were a veteran :D

    I haven't tried Death Ward yet, but all the protection spells state their duration in the spell description. They also all seem to have different symbols that denote if they are active or not, and you can just check your character info page to check. I've just learnt to distinguish between the most common/useful ones like Chaotic Commands, Resist Fear, Spirit Armour, Stone Skin, Mind Shield, Free Movement, Stunned, Confused, Panicked... etc
  • BaldursCatBaldursCat Member Posts: 432
    edited August 2013
    :D I am a veteran in the sense of having been stumbling about Faerun for several years getting through on blind luck and constant reloads (yes, that seems to be the spell that's always active) but I've never really used the spells in any coherent, effective way. I suppose what I was trying to get at is no matter how long a spell is supposed to last they're only as useful as the next mage / cleric you run across with a breach spell unless they're passive from an equipped item. Death ward works very well in...
    The planar prison, where the bounty hunters and the warden seem to chuck about death spells with reckless abandon
    One of the reasons I asked is my bard seems to 'lose' protections far more readily than the NPCs.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    Hmmm... Are you playing with some mods that makes enemy mages a bit smarter? I've done the Planar Prison in my first playthrough (uploaded in my LP already), I don't recall any death spells. In fact I'm already deep in the Underdark, and the main source of instant death I've encountered are Imprisonment and Petrification attacks. Hence thus far I've not felt compelled to use Death Ward. The most painful spell I've had to face so far is probably Horrid Wilting.

    That said, I am increasingly coming across enemies that throw out a tonne of debuffs. If I am expecting a battle, or about to venture into a potentially dangerous place, my usual long term protection checklist is Protection from Evil, Chaotic Commands, Resist Fear (that's a new one I've only just started using), Stoneskin (Mages) and Spirit Armour (Charname only). As a battle develops, I use Chant and Bless, they don't last long anyway.
  • BaldursCatBaldursCat Member Posts: 432
    Sounds like we're doing things pretty much the same way but what I'm finding is that none of these things are particularly long term, in charname's case they're gone in less than one battle even though I keep her well out of things (must of the time) Thankfully I've now got the armour suitable for bards but before it was a knightmare! With regard to the planar prison...
    nope, from what I've read the death spells and number of spells set in a sequencer are standard tactics, you must've been able to shut the battle down before they got the spells off - which is what I finally managed to do but it took a few goes and a change of tactics.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,975
    a big majority of buff spells in the game only last a round/level, and if you are playing at frame rate 60, then they seem to run out pretty quick, for example, if you are level 10 and a spell lasts a round/ level, that's 60 seconds, but at frame rate 60, it will only last 30 seconds, which can be the average time it takes to fight a relative hard battle, so that could be why they don't seem to last long, if you are playing frame rate 60 then watch out on time wasted just idling because one round is only 3 seconds long and durations can run out pretty quick, and @Heindrich1988 do you know what an AWESOME buff spell is for a party? the level 7 spell mass invisibility, sure some enemies will cast true sight on you, but that is far and few between, mass invisibility rocks, enemies get -4 to hit on your, and you get +4 to hit on them, and +4 to all saves, plus enemies cant cast spells on you, very VERY useful when fighting mind flayers and such :)
  • BaldursCatBaldursCat Member Posts: 432
    Hmm, interesting point re frame-rates, though I play with a lot of auto-pauses set so a battle takes a lot longer.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    edited August 2013
    @sarevok57
    I think I got a scroll for Mass Invis... but none of my Mages can use lv7 spells yet :D

    @BaldursCat
    Link to my battle vs the Warden. I totally noobed it. I even celebrated early, thinking I had killed him when actually I just killed his Mislead clone :D I was awfully confused that somebody was still throwing nasty spells at me...

    You can see what I'm doin differently maybe. I don't seem to have a major problem with debuffs, in fact it's only become a major factor once I reached the Underdark.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,975
    @Heindrich1988 you are in the underdark and cant use level 7 spells yet? wowzers, you must have raced off to spell hold, because usually when I finish the battle with you know who at spell hold I just start learning level 8 mage spells, but I guess if you have aerie you are going to need 3 million xp before you can start level 7 spells
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    sarevok57 said:

    @Heindrich1988 you are in the underdark and cant use level 7 spells yet? wowzers, you must have raced off to spell hold, because usually when I finish the battle with you know who at spell hold I just start learning level 8 mage spells, but I guess if you have aerie you are going to need 3 million xp before you can start level 7 spells

    Yeah my mages are Charname (Fighter/Mage), Aerie and Imoen. And I set off for Spellhold with around 1 million xp.

    I RP these games, and cannot justify Charname trying to solve every crisis and injustice in Amn before going off to rescue his dear sister. :D
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,153
    I often end up in the Underdark with only 5th level spells. I also figure rescuing Imoen is a high priority, and make my way there pretty quickly. It poses no particular problems. In fact, I've "broken" Ust Natha a couple times, and just exterminating the city is doable, even around 10th level or so. I kind of like squishing Drow.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,975
    in the underdark at 10th level? seems a little low, I had a play through a couple of weeks ago where I went to spell hold right away, and when I got there I was at 500 000xp per character ( just the quest xp to get there is huge) now then again of coarse when I got to ust natha I finished absolutely everything I could the time I got there, but even then I would think you would have level 6 spells by then?
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,153
    Yeah Sarevvok I think its more normal to be 11-13 level when you get there. But I've pushed it much sooner a few times.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,975
    I can see level 13, but level 11, that's pretty low, you would have to be running straight to the underdark to be that level, the quest xp on the way is just so high, you only need 750 000 xp to be level 11 and just quest xp alone is 100s of thousands, but still do able to be level 11 I suppose, usually I like to be around level 16 or 17 or so, my mage is usually able to cast level 8 spells when im there
  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,438
    edited August 2013
    I remember when I got there, my CHARNAME had 14 in Mage, and was multi-classed. But that was because I took my sweet time, while even sweeter Imoen was being made to endure unspeakable torments. And a dagger in the heart from her best friend, the blood washed off with a sister's tears. ;___;
    Also, that was some very interesting information about the frame rates! I will make a note of that!
  • BaldursCatBaldursCat Member Posts: 432

    I remember when I got there, my CHARNAME had 14 in Mage, and was multi-classed. But that was because I took my sweet time, while even sweeter Imoen was being made to endure unspeakable torments. And a dagger in the heart from her best friend, the blood washed off with a sister's tears. ;___;
    Also, that was some very interesting information about the frame rates! I will make a note of that!

    You're a terrible, terrible sibling >_> My excuse for taking my sweet time is that if we went any earlier we wouldn't even get past the vamps. Mind you, do you side with the vamps or the shadow thieves? I've never played that path but I suspect it might possibly be the easier option.
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  • blackchimesblackchimes Member Posts: 323
    edited August 2013
    I think I posted this argument here before, but Irenicus isn't a crazed sadist. His goal is Imoen's soul, and once he gets that he has no reason to "torture" her further. I doubt he would, he's a busy man who doesn't care about anything except revenge after all. So Imoen suffers the same amount whether it takes you a week or six months to get to her.

    As for leaving elves to die in their sacred city while you take your sweet time setting traps around Firkraag... good riddance. I hate elves. It's their mess in the first place and they deserve it for the most part.
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  • BaldursCatBaldursCat Member Posts: 432
    Shandyr said:

    I think I posted this argument here before, but Irenicus isn't a crazed sadist. His goal is Imoen's soul, and once he gets that he has no reason to "torture" her further. I doubt he would, he's a busy man who doesn't care about anything except revenge after all. So Imoen suffers the same amount whether it takes you a week or six months to get to her.

    Yeah, I agree, but how does your mainchar know that after all the torture he/she has been through at the hand of Irenicus?

    Not to mention the
    Cowled Wizards in Spellhold, never mind Irenicus, that cutscene where they're talking about practicing their charm spells on her makes me decidedly stabby! - and that's just me, nevermind Charname. It's twisted.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959

    Shandyr said:

    I think I posted this argument here before, but Irenicus isn't a crazed sadist. His goal is Imoen's soul, and once he gets that he has no reason to "torture" her further. I doubt he would, he's a busy man who doesn't care about anything except revenge after all. So Imoen suffers the same amount whether it takes you a week or six months to get to her.

    Yeah, I agree, but how does your mainchar know that after all the torture he/she has been through at the hand of Irenicus?

    Not to mention the
    Cowled Wizards in Spellhold, never mind Irenicus, that cutscene where they're talking about practicing their charm spells on her makes me decidedly stabby! - and that's just me, nevermind Charname. It's twisted.
    Yeah u can't use metagame knowledge to try to justify a roleplaying decision.

    I've tried to roleplay my character, so initially it was clear that he needed to re-equip and find allies to take on Irenicus/Cowled Wizards. He was desperate to rescue Imoen, but knows summoning a squadron of Cowled Wizards and attacking would result in certain death, or his own capture, which won't help Imoen's cause. A few quests were justified by the rationale that Charname being lawful, detests the idea of working for either the Shadow Thieves or their rival, and hopes to get Imoen back through lawful channels (working for the Cowled Wizards, Council of Six, Temple of Helm/Order of Radiant Heart), once this falls through, he can wait no longer and chooses the lesser of the two evils.

    Once he got the crazy vision about Irenicus at the start of chapter 3
    where it's clear Irenicus has taken over Spellhold, and for all Charname knows, Imoen is in mortal danger (she is)
    Charname rushes off to Spellhold with a single-minded determination to save her asap. Everything else is dropped, the murders in the Bridge district, the people of the Umar Hills, the dryads' acorns. Charname will try to honour his promises in the future, but for now, his dear Imoen takes priority over all.

    Also, given all that Irenicus has done, and because I've tried to immerse myself, I feel a genuine sense of hatred towards Irenicus, lol.
  • blackchimesblackchimes Member Posts: 323
    Uh, charname doesn't see these "visions". It's just BG2 attempt at cutscenes. It's for the player only.
  • BaldursCatBaldursCat Member Posts: 432

    Shandyr said:

    I think I posted this argument here before, but Irenicus isn't a crazed sadist. His goal is Imoen's soul, and once he gets that he has no reason to "torture" her further. I doubt he would, he's a busy man who doesn't care about anything except revenge after all. So Imoen suffers the same amount whether it takes you a week or six months to get to her.

    Yeah, I agree, but how does your mainchar know that after all the torture he/she has been through at the hand of Irenicus?

    Not to mention the
    Cowled Wizards in Spellhold, never mind Irenicus, that cutscene where they're talking about practicing their charm spells on her makes me decidedly stabby! - and that's just me, nevermind Charname. It's twisted.
    Yeah u can't use metagame knowledge to try to justify a roleplaying decision.

    I've tried to roleplay my character, so initially it was clear that he needed to re-equip and find allies to take on Irenicus/Cowled Wizards. He was desperate to rescue Imoen, but knows summoning a squadron of Cowled Wizards and attacking would result in certain death, or his own capture, which won't help Imoen's cause. A few quests were justified by the rationale that Charname being lawful, detests the idea of working for either the Shadow Thieves or their rival, and hopes to get Imoen back through lawful channels (working for the Cowled Wizards, Council of Six, Temple of Helm/Order of Radiant Heart), once this falls through, he can wait no longer and chooses the lesser of the two evils.

    Once he got the crazy vision about Irenicus at the start of chapter 3
    where it's clear Irenicus has taken over Spellhold, and for all Charname knows, Imoen is in mortal danger (she is)
    Charname rushes off to Spellhold with a single-minded determination to save her asap. Everything else is dropped, the murders in the Bridge district, the people of the Umar Hills, the dryads' acorns. Charname will try to honour his promises in the future, but for now, his dear Imoen takes priority over all.

    Also, given all that Irenicus has done, and because I've tried to immerse myself, I feel a genuine sense of hatred towards Irenicus, lol.
    Heh, it's funny we've ended up discussing the RPing decisions here as much as in the other thread I started (though I know we're supposed to be spoiler free here). Funnily enough it was an encounter with the Cowlies that reminded me as 'omnipresent authority figure' if we went running off to get Immy at that point we'd stand something between no and zero chance. I'm not quite sure how it happened, as we didn't cast any arcane spells (seriously, I didn't it must be a glitch) but they showed up and wiped out the party. So yeah, if you're truly RPing you can't take that meta scene into account even though it''s horrid.
    and Aran Linvail is certainly the lesser of two evils
    Equally, however, if I was seriously RPing I'd have been wiped out ages ago because of vamps.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959

    Uh, charname doesn't see these "visions". It's just BG2 attempt at cutscenes. It's for the player only.

    I suppose that's open to interpretation. I guess if u don't consider Charname to have knowledge of those cut-scenes, you could justify being a bit less urgent/concerned, but if you roleplay anyone who cares about Imoen, you cannot justify just leaving her at the mercy of the Cowled Wizards for long, who clearly operate above the law and are morally ambiguous.

    Equally, however, if I was seriously RPing I'd have been wiped out ages ago because of vamps.

    Vamps? really? they were actually easier than I expected, although admittedly I had a few close shaves and was so spooked the first time I got level drained that I stopped what I was doing and ran back to the Mithrest Inn to wait for sunrise. :D
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    Re: the Warden and death magic.

    @Heindrich1988,
    If I recall correctly, from watching that video, the Warden used a Power Word:Kill to instakill Anomen toward the end of your battle. You just didn't notice the transcript, because there was a lot going on, and I think you may have been starting to panic. If the Warden had cast that at Jin instead of Anomen, you would have had to reload.


    So, it's always a good idea to have Death Ward active on Charname at all times. (Luckily it lasts a long time.) I never can memorize the complete list of casters in the game who use Power Word:Kill, Slay Living, Finger of Death, and Disintegrate. I've had my Charnames slain by these spells before I learned to use the Death Ward spell to avoid uneccessary reloads.

  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    @belgarathmth

    Oh... I had always assumed Horrid Wilting got him. I think I've been quite lucky with insta-death on the whole. Maybe just beginner's luck and I will die horribly when I play BG 2 EE :D
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    @Heindrich1988

    Check my request for changes to level drain over in the feature request section, for what vampires are SUPPOSED to be like.

    The ones in BG are a silly joke by comparison.
  • BaldursCatBaldursCat Member Posts: 432

    @Heindrich1988

    Check my request for changes to level drain over in the feature request section, for what vampires are SUPPOSED to be like.

    The ones in BG are a silly joke by comparison.

    I think we've had this discussion. You're obviously a high level player. I certainly don't find them a 'silly joke' I find them a royal pain in the arse and am currently actively avoiding going out in Athkatla after dark until such time as I can work out a strategy to deal with them without having to haul my whole party off to a temple - because, as we've discussed, some of the protections don't last me long enough to complete a battle with any degree of success, and we haven't even got the graveyard bit. Don't be selfish just because you've bested the game. Keep your greater difficulty wishes for a mod.

  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    Well if we're havin this discussion here, I'll copy what I said regarding difficulty, and vampires in particular.

    As it is, BG is not a particularly easy or even beginner friendly game. Your own experience is heavily distorted by the fact that you are a D&D veteran and a BG veteran. I am all for interesting challenges and 'realism' (I guess Level-drain has something to do with draining life force in D&D lore), but the game needs to be playable for a beginner without reading a walkthrough or a massive manual, or requiring experience in D&D PnP. Otherwise you never give a beginner the time to get immersed.

    If I were to comment on the state of the vanilla game difficulty, and what I'd like to change, it's that the difficulty seems very 'spiky' for a beginner. There are some things which are just very tricky if you don't have metagame knowledge. For example like knowing to buy Shield of Balduran vs Beholders and how to kill a Clay Golem. I don't mind having to learn things like immunities and spells as I go along, but it would be helpful if the game offered some hints along the way. Like maybe one of the NPCs could have said, 'Oh no! That's a Clay Golem, we're gonna need a nice hammer to hurt that!' the first time I came across one. The changes you are proposing will make Vampires another one of those 'difficulty spikes' that can be frustrating for a noobie. Remember also that the game cannot just be for powergamers with optimised stats. I don't want to be compelled to roll 18/18/18 for every character just to stand a chance of getting to the end relatively intact and without cheesy tactics.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for the game to be nerfed to the extent any child can romp through mindlessly. In fact I don't mind if the 'general difficulty' was increased a little, I just don't like 'spikey difficulty'. All it achieves is create extra hoops that beginners will need to learn to jump through, whereas veterans will hardly notice the difference precisely cos they already know what to do.

    For example whilst I disagree with ur proposal for Level Drain, I'd actually quite like to see companion deaths having more of a consequence than it does currently. Because 'raising the dead' is so easy in BG, it totally devalues the impact of death, unless it is permanent. I feel there needs to be a middle ground between 'oh damn I lost a bit of gold' death and 'oh shit Aerie is gone forever, I need to reload' death. The obvious solution to me is that whenever somebody is raised from the dead, there is a chance (say 50%) of permanent loss of 1 random physical ability point. That way death will have serious consequences, but won't force a reload each time.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,153
    In PNP being Raised would cost you a point of constitution. I'm not sure why they did away with that.
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