Slayer form tweaks, again.
O_Bruce
Member Posts: 2,790
The following feature request contains spoilers from Baldur's Gate II. If anything, you're reading this on your own risk.
Long before BG:EE was released, I already made long-forgotten feature request about usefulness of the Slayer form that CHARNAME recieves access to after the Spellhood. This time thought, I want to request not only more usefulness of this form, but also it's connection to Bhaal's essence within CHARNAME.
But for starters let's discuss why player would want to user this form, and more importantly, why he wouldn't want to use it.
Advantages:
- Quite nice for roleplaying
- The Slayer's claws counts as +5 or +6 weapon, which is great for SoA standards. It enables to damage demiliches.
- The Slayers is immune to a lot of effect, including Imprisonment.
- The Slayer's claws are dealing additional cold damage, so it's usefull against stoneskined mages.
Disadvantages:
- Latest two advantages can be easily ignored - Berserker's rage also provides immunity to Imprisonment, Spelltrap and the like can help countering it. There are a lot of weapons that are useful against stoneskined mages etc.
- In ToB, +5 weapons are norm.
- The Slayer's HP are set to 100, which means that fighter class CHARNAME who decides to transform into the Slayer is often going to become weaker. What's more, nearly in every aspect.
- The Slayer cannot cast spells.
- You can use the form for a very short ammount of time before you die.
- Every time you transform, you lose 2 reputation points. Unfortunately, reputation in BG functions as a both morality (karma) and how people around are seeing you. This is very punishing for evil characters.
Overall, not much of a reasons of using this guy, aside from dealing with Demiliches, right? So, what can be done about this guy?
If reputation/karma system in the game cannot be changed, then we should focus the Slayer itself. There are two things that can be done: increase it's base stats (HP, Thaco, attacks, damage, ac, resistances etc.) of the Slayer and also increase the time player can remain in that form. But, there's a catch: only evil Bhaalspawns will benefit from improvements made for this form.
Unlike the way the Slayer was improved in the Ascension mod, where CHARNAME's experience points were the key. But, I would like to CHARNAME's decision to affect his/her Slayer form. The point is: the more evil, selfish and power hungry your CHARNAME is, the more powerful his/her Slayer form gets. How it can be done?
(If none of "evil" actions here were done, your Slayer form isn't going to get stronger)
1. The Dream sequences. If you act evil/selfish/power-hungry while responding to Irenicus, The Slayer form you will recieve after Spellhood will become more powerful.
2.The Hell trials, Test of wrath: the wraith of Sarevok is tempting you to use your Bhaal's essence and transform into the Slayer. Isn't it the perfect opportunity to improve the Slayer? If you choose "evil" durning this trial, aside from gaining +2 to str, your Slayer form becomes slightly more powerful; also, the time duration of staying in the form before death is doubled.
3.Trone of Bhaal. I'm not so sure about how is Overhaul going to handle that part of the game, but it sure will use some improvements. Anyway, the idea is to yet again, enhance the Slayer stats (but no slightly this time) and then also, instead of dying, CHARNAME will turn to his natural form after transformation's time is up. The occasion for providing those could be:
a) One of the trials in pocket plane (death removed as a consequence of using the form too long after "talk" with Cyric?)
b) After destruction of Saradush, if you were speaking with Melyssan and acting evil/power hunry.
c) After killing few member of The Five, but there is no really "good/evil choice".
I know that once @Dee said that such changes require caution, when impementing, but I haven't heard definitely "no" from him. It's just my propositions, thought. The exact way Overhaul is/isn't going to implement this is up to them.
Now, the Slayer (and evil Bhaalspawns) needs some more love (and hugs!)
Long before BG:EE was released, I already made long-forgotten feature request about usefulness of the Slayer form that CHARNAME recieves access to after the Spellhood. This time thought, I want to request not only more usefulness of this form, but also it's connection to Bhaal's essence within CHARNAME.
But for starters let's discuss why player would want to user this form, and more importantly, why he wouldn't want to use it.
Advantages:
- Quite nice for roleplaying
- The Slayer's claws counts as +5 or +6 weapon, which is great for SoA standards. It enables to damage demiliches.
- The Slayers is immune to a lot of effect, including Imprisonment.
- The Slayer's claws are dealing additional cold damage, so it's usefull against stoneskined mages.
Disadvantages:
- Latest two advantages can be easily ignored - Berserker's rage also provides immunity to Imprisonment, Spelltrap and the like can help countering it. There are a lot of weapons that are useful against stoneskined mages etc.
- In ToB, +5 weapons are norm.
- The Slayer's HP are set to 100, which means that fighter class CHARNAME who decides to transform into the Slayer is often going to become weaker. What's more, nearly in every aspect.
- The Slayer cannot cast spells.
- You can use the form for a very short ammount of time before you die.
- Every time you transform, you lose 2 reputation points. Unfortunately, reputation in BG functions as a both morality (karma) and how people around are seeing you. This is very punishing for evil characters.
Overall, not much of a reasons of using this guy, aside from dealing with Demiliches, right? So, what can be done about this guy?
If reputation/karma system in the game cannot be changed, then we should focus the Slayer itself. There are two things that can be done: increase it's base stats (HP, Thaco, attacks, damage, ac, resistances etc.) of the Slayer and also increase the time player can remain in that form. But, there's a catch: only evil Bhaalspawns will benefit from improvements made for this form.
Unlike the way the Slayer was improved in the Ascension mod, where CHARNAME's experience points were the key. But, I would like to CHARNAME's decision to affect his/her Slayer form. The point is: the more evil, selfish and power hungry your CHARNAME is, the more powerful his/her Slayer form gets. How it can be done?
(If none of "evil" actions here were done, your Slayer form isn't going to get stronger)
1. The Dream sequences. If you act evil/selfish/power-hungry while responding to Irenicus, The Slayer form you will recieve after Spellhood will become more powerful.
2.The Hell trials, Test of wrath: the wraith of Sarevok is tempting you to use your Bhaal's essence and transform into the Slayer. Isn't it the perfect opportunity to improve the Slayer? If you choose "evil" durning this trial, aside from gaining +2 to str, your Slayer form becomes slightly more powerful; also, the time duration of staying in the form before death is doubled.
3.Trone of Bhaal. I'm not so sure about how is Overhaul going to handle that part of the game, but it sure will use some improvements. Anyway, the idea is to yet again, enhance the Slayer stats (but no slightly this time) and then also, instead of dying, CHARNAME will turn to his natural form after transformation's time is up. The occasion for providing those could be:
a) One of the trials in pocket plane (death removed as a consequence of using the form too long after "talk" with Cyric?)
b) After destruction of Saradush, if you were speaking with Melyssan and acting evil/power hunry.
c) After killing few member of The Five, but there is no really "good/evil choice".
I know that once @Dee said that such changes require caution, when impementing, but I haven't heard definitely "no" from him. It's just my propositions, thought. The exact way Overhaul is/isn't going to implement this is up to them.
Now, the Slayer (and evil Bhaalspawns) needs some more love (and hugs!)
4
Comments
Your list of disadvantages assumes that people will always have access to those options...they do not.
While it's true that fighter's are slightly weakened normally (except Kensai, who keep their damage bonus, -2 AC, and get a HUGE AC buff while transformed), if they NEED the extra protections, it's worth the loss of outright ability. Berserker's can only compete because Bioware grossly overpowered/underpenalized their enrage ability. And Wizard slayer's due to their penalty against accessories get some much needed defensive boots to in slayer form.
And every other class is actually buffed by transforming into the slayer. Sure you lose spell-casting, but if you're using slayer form, you're out of spells or up against something you can't effectively attack with magic anyway. And much like a GWw, you can always buff up before transforming.
Slayer form isn't a bonus....it's a desperation attack of last resort. An evil character who revels in their transformation deserves to be hated because they have no shame in utilizing such a demonic creature of pure evil at every available opportunity and is GOING to upset their compatriots of Good or good-oriented neutral persuasions and creates such a palpable taste of corruption even complete strangers can pick up on it.
If anything, the more evil you are, the faster the form should kill you, since it's an entity of pure evil and feeds on corruption and murderous desire.
I never knew about Beholders and Vampires. Thank you. I disagree with most of things you said, though.
Sure, you can consider the Slayer as a "last resort". But if your last resort is, in most of the cases, decreasing your staying power, in most cases of the fighter classes decreasing your offensive power and if it is nearly utterly useless in ToB, then something is surely wrong here.
You also missed important thing. Connection between roleplaying evil character and CHARNAME's Slayer form. It is important. These dream sequences that are so disliked by people could have a purpose. Also, playing evil wouldn't be so punishing anymore. It is a good path that should enforce abnegations to you, not the evil one.
I agree thought about reputation pentaly, but only because it has dual-function in BG series. Otherwise, there would no point in losing reputation when no one innocent sees your transformation.
Even in the BG1 dreams, evil paths were punished because the essence within grew stronger from evil actions and choices making it easier for it to attempt to forces you into acts of mindless violence to strengthen it further before your inevitable demise which would return the strengthened power to the pool. Good acts on the other hand, starved the essence and weakened it, making your character more in control.
It makes it blatantly obvious, mentioning that your character can literally feel the slayer eating away at their soul every time they use it.
As long as they implement the enhanced Bhaalspawn powers, it's fine. That's all the bonus an evil character needs, because those powers are ridiculous.
That being said... I'd LOVE to see a class / kit that takes advantage of the slayer form. Make the core abilities of the class remove the rep penalty upon assuming slayer form, but set a maximum rep cap of 10. nerf the slayer form so it doesn't have any immunity to so many things but buff it so that you dont die from using it for too long... and you'd have a seriously interesting class to play with.
And from a RP perspective it would be amazing...
Include a random loss of control aspect similar to the wild magic table, where you can just go nuts at any moment and go on a rampage. That would be SWEEEEET!
Obviously, you don't get what I mean by saying that "Also, playing evil wouldn't be so punishing anymore. It is a good path that should enforce abnegations to you, not the evil one.". Basically, someone who's evil doesn't have any moral dilenmas and are focused only on their well-being. Hence roleplaying evil should have it's benefits, contrary to what we have in BG right now.
Now, for the Slayer. True, the Slayer form is eating your soul, it is utterly evil power, but you are acting as if Bhaalspawn, of all living beings, never had any control over it. There are only two situations in the entire game when you are out of control: when you are transforming when meeting Bodhi, and after first rest after this encounter. Then, after having dream, featuring Imoen teaching you how to count to five, you are able to transform into the form at will. And control it for short ammount of time. Note the "you are losing control" massage - it shows up when you start recieving damage, when you have only like 4-5 runds of using this form left. After which, you die, which indicates that you lost control over Slayer.
Point is: control over the Slayer form is possible, even if it's for the short ammount of time.
And hence it is possible, I don't see why someone who's aspiring to become God of Murder wouldn't try to master the conrol over his very Bhaal essence. Since CHARNAME gained some limited control over the Slayer before, there is no reason to claim that gaining even more is impossible.
I've also gave a thought about your "last resort" argument and I came to conclusion that it would be good argument, but only if one factor is ignored: that player would rather use "load game" spell than risk using the Slayer, transforming int which would be probably pointless. Of course, there are no-reload challenges, but it's not that common style of playing this game.
I don't know if Overhaul is going to do anything about the Slayer form, regardless if it's because of this feature request or not, but surely I want something to be done with the Slayer. Let's face the fact, using this form is pointless, even as the last resort. You have Shield of Balduran and one nice cloak against Beholders - both of these methods work better than the Slayer. You have large access to "Protection from Undead" scrolls, which are more viable method of dealing with Demiliches and Vampires. You have magical items, summons, potions, spells... There's a lot of methods of dealing with hard situations. Using Slayer is not only pointless, but also punishing.
From what I've read from one of your topics, @ZanathKarashi (the one about nerfing F/D) I already know that we are people that proably will not come to agreement on the same thing...
ALso....whats this $%#^ about evil having low rep? 18 rep is not low. Or 16, if you prefer more of a buffer. I've said it a dozen times, Bioware can't write evil for $%#^...at least with regard to the player's choices. Every "evil" choice in this game is stupid evil, that is just taking an evil path for the lulz, completely ignoring the fact that a callous, greedy, vain, evil twat will have no issue at all taking a "good" path if they feel it's likely to have a better pay out, or better yet, fools people into thinking they're nice. Evil only cares about results, which is why the rep system is also $%#^...every single one of the Evil characters would absolutely LOVE all the benefits of doing good quests because it brings them everything they want (Money, prestige, POWER). The only thing that really separates a "good" action from an "evil" action is why you took the action in the first place. Yes murdering people for no reason is definitely evil, but it's also REALLY REALLY dumb, because it adds additional unnecessary risks.
People who just reload through all their problems are irrelevant......that's like saying every PC/NPC should just have an instant-death knife because people will just shadow-keeper it in or kill-command enemies they think are too difficult. Not everyone does, but a fair amount of people do. Why not just give every character all 18's. Stats are worthless anyway and it would clear up some annoyances...especially since people have no issues just using the set all 18 cheat or SKing their companions to have the stats/kits THEY want them to have anyway.
Nothing of those matter at ALL to how an ability functions. No baring what so ever. Why limit mage spell casting at all, when people can rest all they want without penalty 99.99999999% of the time? Only a 1 battle in the unmodded game, lasts long enough to potentially run you out of spells, that you can't rest during (and by then you can Wish rest, so it doesn't matter).
It's a persons choice if they want to cheat, instead of manning up and living with their choices. Slayer as implemented is fine. And to be perfectly honest, it's the other options that need to be looked at, because everything you brought up is brokenly overpowered as implemented.
See? I told you so.
Something that would make us less powerful, but not destroyed reputation.
Advantages:
- All stats: +2
- Armor: +2
- Spell casting speed: +1
- Immune to Fear
- Immune to Imprisonment
Duration: 5 rounds
After 5 rounds:
- All stats: -2 (for 10 rounds)
- Fatigued
Lesser Slayer? Interesting.
Evil sadistic demon: Lite, if you will...
If you do it all alone in a beholder lair... not so much.
(After ten days and ten transformations later.)
" The greatest filth of Sword Coast left labyrinth. They were all murderers and wanted criminals, everyone knew it. "
I love Slayer logic
I would not go so far, but I would introduced rule:
No witness = No crime ( At least in Slayer case )
If someone (civilian) sees you in Slayer form, he should start running.
If he manages to escape from the building or area, THEN you should receive reputation decrease.
( Something similar can be applied on murders. )
"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"
In Baldur's Gate tree makes a sound so loud that the whole world hears it...
Haha What I don't get is the store price mark up . . . "Oh look, a brutal murderer known up and down the sword coast for his awful deeds and massive violence. He rapes, he pillages and kills. He especially hates Halflings. 900% mark up for you."
I dont think there was any other way to represent this.
Though yes, I'd much rather seen a LOT more enforcement of roleplaying, ala Torment.
Particular responses requiring a minimum stat level to be able to pick, unless it's something an illiterate, uneducated peasant would think of (average 10 int), (no more low int, wis, cha characters able to talk/reason their way out of problem or for a nice reward, just because the player looked up what the appropriate answer was...though using a companion with the appropriate stats to talk in your place is perfectly acceptable, when able). Your alignment being freely shiftable between law/chaos, good/evil, based directly on your actions and choices, instead of being static, and as per PnP, preventing you leveling up if you are a class/kit with a restricted alignment, until you've gotten back into an acceptable alignment.
I'd also like to see some greater enforcement of class restrictions.
ANY evil choice should result in immediate falling of a Paladin, including accepting evil NPCs into the party (with a Detect-Evil warning dialog for a paladin). If a choice was absolute necessary for the completion of an important quest (such as letting Edwin join briefly in BG2 to complete Maevar's guild quest, or being forced to side with the Shadow thieves as the lesser evil), they can go and seek atonement at a good temple and be restored, but if it was simply evil without reason (choosing any evil response or killing innocents), it's permanent.
Paladin NPCs will absolutely refuse to party with an Evil PC (or if they have evil party members) and will warn PC if they detect a potential companion is evil, and will leave if the PC accepts them anyway, or chooses any inexcusable evil actions.
Rangers fall permanently if they ever cease to be Good, but can do what they must, as long as they don't go too far. Ranger NPCs will leave if the party has taken enough evil actions with them present to shift them out of Good (but won't actually change their alignment).
Not all paladins are the same. Some orders are more tolerant (smart).
"If a choice was absolute necessary for the completion of an important quest (such as letting Edwin join briefly in BG2 to complete Maevar's guild quest, or being forced to side with the Shadow thieves as the lesser evil." Thieves are evil, paladin can not fulfill this task. For lawful stupid paladins is not anything like the "lesser" evil.
That said, the Shadow Thieves and you arent friends even traveling companions. They wouldnt be dumb enough to knowingly ask a Paladin to behave evily, as its very bad for the asker's health. I am not sure if buying a boat ride from evil is enough to fall. Linvail wouldnt risk his life by trying to screw over a Paladin, so he'd be more cautious.
Ideally, you patron may be understanding if you fall for a very good reason, but you'd still have to atone. DnD is not big on the doctrine of Divine Grace! Martin Luther would have hated that.
I want be Paladin of Sharess!
They must have a great code.
I think it would be cool to have that option.
I probably would use it more than the normal Slayer; I only transformed into the Slayer once, and that was in a desperate situation.