Nah, it's just a bit of a hissy fit. Fairly standard internet forum fare. Not quite up to the level of a bannable offense, I'd say. Though I must say I'm quite curious what would happen if I did this -> @kamuizin
Not sure if this point's been made because ye gods do I not have the time or inclination to read through another of kamuizin's persecution rants, BUT:
It's worth pointing out that the gaps in the NPC pool also benefit the player to a certain extent - it gives you the option of RPing a class that is unique within the group dynamic. Until Baeloth came along, my PC was always the only Sorcerer in the party, which actually helped distinguish him from other mages; by the same token, a Shadowdancer or Cavalier or Wizard Slayer PC is going to stand out simply by virtue of being the only person in the game with those specific abilities.
@shawne - excellent way to put a positive spin on things.
For me, Jan is almost always my go to thief. Recently I did start including Yoshimo and found him to be quite fun and an excellent addition. However, if I really want to play a thoroughly evil (kick babies type) party, I really don't feel like any of the personalities of the existing thief choices in the standard game quite fit.
Korgan is perfect as he is Korgan. Viconia has the attitude from decades of living in Drow society. Edwin could intimidate a Beholder with his attitude alone. But there it ends. Ok, we will have Dorn in BG2:EE, but... Which is a shame because you have the classic party template of fighter, wizard, cleric. Sure Charname can play a thief, but I just feel there should be more choices than "Play Charname as a thief or have no thief" in that type of party. Good and neutral parties don't have as much problem filling out their roster.
And quite frankly, I really can't see Imoen, Nalia or Jan kicking babies, slitting throats in the night merely for a few coins and a scroll or being cruel to a turnip. However I admit this may be a failing in my Role play skills.
@the_spyder: I'm assuming the devs felt the same way about thieves, hence the addition of Hexxat - Yoshimo fits in perfectly well with Viconia, Korgan, Dorn and Edwin (they're all outcasts and exiles, most of them are criminals, etc.) but there's no way to get around the fact that you can't keep him. In fact, you're kind of forced to take Imoen with you after Spellhold, both because there's a gap in your party and because you can't pick up any other NPCs for quite a while after that.
One of the things I'm looking forward to with BG2:EE is taking Hexxat with me to Spellhold; it means I can send Imoen on her way and keep the party as it is through chapters 4 and 5.
For my money, even though Yoshimo was written so that he could chameleon into any party, he is still too 'nicey' with everyone to truly be a card carrying part of a Bloody Mummers type party. I'm talking about the type that would fit in well with Bodhi's group.
Korgan is always talking about how he took his former companions down bloody. Viconia would happily disembowel anyone in the name of fun and games. Edwin might dissect someone merely to see what makes them tick. Saravok would fillet someone just so he could use their blood to clean his sword. Yoshimo might kill maim and pillage with the rest of the bunch, but he wouldn't be volunteering it as a first choice, nor would he draw the same amount of pleasure from the acts as the rest. See the difference?
With that having been said, Jan still ends up in most of my parties.
Obviously my impressions of a character may differ from someone else's, but it's always seemed to me (from his banters and general attitude) that Jan is definitely on the Evil side of his notionally-Neutral alignment (just as Jaheira is obviously a Good-leaning Neutral).
Jan isn't quite like Neb the Childslayer, but for me he always seems to fit in quite well with an Evil party, and quite uncomfortably with a Good party. I'm pretty convinced that the original developers designed Jan as Evil, but then switched him to Neutral at the last minute, when they realised that there was no level-up-able Thief available to Good parties ... maybe they had originally intended to include a Good Thief instead, but ran out of time?
@the_spyder: Erm, those seem like rather gross exaggerations of their established characters - Viconia was exiled from Underdark society precisely because she refused to be as pointlessly and excessively cruel as other drow; Edwin sees himself as intellectually-superior and therefore he's above getting his hands dirty (which is why he sends you to kill Dynaheir rather than do it himself); Korgan killed his previous partners because they betrayed him, not just because he felt like it; Sarevok was subtle enough to infiltrate the Grand Dukes, which at least indicates he's not the type to dance in people's entrails.
Just because they're Evil doesn't mean they have to be complete monsters. Even Evil Has Standards, you know.
@Gallowglass: What exactly are you basing that speculation on? Because as far as I know, there's nothing in Jan's personality that demonstrates Evil inclinations - he's just a comic relief figure, and Edwin pretty much covers that for Evil parties with the whole "bitter, bitter woman" scenario...
@Gallowglass: What exactly are you basing that speculation on?
As I already said, his banters and his attitude, which come across as rather evil-inclined to me; for example, he persistently mocks good characters more than evil characters, and his attitude generally seems to me rather unpleasant.
Furthermore, his personal quest points somewhat that way as well - "The Hidden" whose aid you solicit to solve Jan's quest is actually an illithid (which the game does actually tell you at some point, although I seem to recall that that's in a street conversation rather than inside Jan's quest), and illithids are not the friends of good guys.
However, as I also already said, I accept that other people's impressions of a character may differ from mine.
How so @Gallowglass? I always find Jan to be more of a goody-goody.
He's clearly chaotic, as a smuggler in the first banter you get this fast and he doesn't complain much about evil done by the party, however he will leave and attack the party in the underdark if the party choose to kill the deep gnomes patrol.
Hm... Mocks? I know he's kind of a joker, but I don't think he really mocks anyone. Plus, when your rep gets low, he starts to complain and I believe he leaves if your rep hits 1. I think he says the group are like a bad itch or something...
He also says something to Edwin about his fight against "All that's good and right in the world" - I really think he's more of a goody goodie.
@shawne - Korgan tells you how he took out his former companions "Because they betrayed him" it's true. but to read the detail to which he describes it, it is obvious that he relished doing it. And he has no problem threatening the same or worse to Charname and company if they aren't careful.
Viconia will tell a story about the male that befrended her when she first tried to settle on the surface. That story didn't end well for him or his friends. And she didn't leave because she refused to be excessively cruel to other drow. Quite to the contrary. She was fine with that. it was because of her brother. Admittedly she can be 'Reformed', but she is fully Drow in every way up until that point.
Edwin sees himself as intellectually superior to everyone else in the same way that a human thinks himself superior to gnats and ants. He is a towering egotist and considers everyone else in the world to be the very dregs of humanity. He makes his disdain for anyone even remotely capable of even speech quite plain. I don't think he would have a problem slaughtering an entire village simply because they are so far beneath him that they simply don't matter. oh, but you are correct that he wouldn't want to sully his hands personally. he'd use magic.
@Gallowglass I have to go with @shawne's assessment of Jan. He comes across a lot more on the goodie-goodie side in my mind. He is fine with swindling someone out of hard earned cash (via the mobile vegetable peddling 'business') but I don't consider him murdering someone in cold blood for instance. He is definitely more neutral than Imoen or Jaheira, but he is more good than evil.
But it is true that impressions of NPCs can significantly vary. All of the above is admittedly my personal opinion and nothing more.
I suppose I, more than alignment, am thinking about raw personality. It is possible to be a really good person (alignment) and be a foul mouth lout (personality) who is always talking about killing. For instance, Anomen starts off by asking you if you are a force for GOOD. he starts off as neutral. And I would not want him in my Bloody Mummers party for that reason alone.
Hm... Mocks? I know he's kind of a joker, but I don't think he really mocks anyone.
Oh yes, he does, very much so. Have you ever taken Jan and Keldorn in the same party? Jan's song about Keldorn's mother is downright vicious. And if you take Jan and Anomen together, then Jan's tale about the Dung Orc is pure mockery (admittedly Anomen's pomposity has probably earnt a sharp poke, but the point is it's definitely mockery, and pretty harsh mockery at that).
Plus, when your rep gets low, he starts to complain and I believe he leaves if your rep hits 1. I think he says the group are like a bad itch or something...
Well naturally - he's notionally Neutral, and all Neutrals do that. (I think it's probably built into the game engine.)
I'm not trying to argue with you - sorry if I gave that impression! I was just looking to get a sense of why you classify him more as evil. I've never heard the Keldorn song, but I do remember the Dung Orc story now that you mention it - really funny stuff.
Still, though, I don't see that making him all that evil. Are there other reasons? Again, not trying to badger you, just curious! On the illithid front, is it implied that Jan knows who it is?
I think there is a far sight difference between a couple of japes and being the type of evil I think Korgan, Viconia and Edwin are intended to portray. Of course that is merely my opinion.
But if you were to compare (personality wise) Jan versus Montaron, that might be the difference I am referring too. Monty is quite evil and would slit your throat on a dare. Jan might poke fun at your mother, but he isn't going to kill you in an alley way because you looked at him cross eyed.
LOL. Fair enough. I see Viccy as kind of a silky and seductive evil. The way she talks about pleasures of the flesh and the way that she describes some of what happened too her, I definitely get the feeling that she is no stranger to entrails. In fact, I'd bet she could teach the Marquis De Sade a thing or two. Not that those things make her "Evil", but...
Like I said elsewhere. I am sure she knows how to give direction and i'd bet she punishes as lavishly for failure as she rewards for success. Nor would she get squeamish around a little blood. And we already know she knows how to bury a body or two where the authorities will never find them.
Of course that could be my overactive imagination (or addled brain... you pick) getting the better of me.
@rdarken The Jan quote you're thinking of for rep is something along the lines of: "Being with this party is sort of like having the Calimshite itch, isn't it? Apart from the uncomfortable burning sensation. And the rash!"
He says it for both very high and very low reps, though I've never hit rep 1 so I cannot confirm if he breaks.
I'm not trying to argue with you - sorry if I gave that impression! I was just looking to get a sense of why you classify him more as evil. I've never heard the Keldorn song, but I do remember the Dung Orc story now that you mention it - really funny stuff.
Still, though, I don't see that making him all that evil. Are there other reasons? Again, not trying to badger you, just curious! On the illithid front, is it implied that Jan knows who it is?
Jan's not evil, he just doesn't mind in let evil acts to happen around him if that can get him profit. He has his own code of conduct and it doesn't follow the society moral code. From my own think, if you are passive with the evil around you, you're also contributing to it.
Jan's not evil, he just doesn't mind in let evil acts to happen around him if that can get him profit. He has his own code of conduct and it doesn't follow the society moral code.
this more or less. What i would like is to have someone who is a little more active evil.
From my own think, if you are passive with the evil around you, you're also contributing to it.
I sympathize with the whole "The only think necessary for Evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." sentiment you are alluding too. However I do think there is a distinction between active evil and "I'm too lazy or self absorbed too care" evil. Or at least there should be. Both will get you killed, but only one will be holding the knife and gloating afterwards.
You could also be too afraid to do anything about it. I mean, if you're the only guy filling a very specific role among five other very evil people, one of whom is a godchild, born of the god of murder.... I could see someone being too scared to do anything except what is asked of him.
@shawne - Korgan tells you how he took out his former companions "Because they betrayed him" it's true. but to read the detail to which he describes it, it is obvious that he relished doing it. And he has no problem threatening the same or worse to Charname and company if they aren't careful.
But the point is that he did it for a reason - yes, he enjoyed it, because he enjoys violence in general, but he didn't kill them on a whim. I mean, contrast him and Dorn, who actually did slaughter an entire village for no real reason and will kill one of your party members for a slip of the tongue; Korgan never does that.
Viconia will tell a story about the male that befrended her when she first tried to settle on the surface. That story didn't end well for him or his friends. And she didn't leave because she refused to be excessively cruel to other drow. Quite to the contrary. She was fine with that. it was because of her brother. Admittedly she can be 'Reformed', but she is fully Drow in every way up until that point.
This is what Viconia says in BG2 (I don't know if it's exclusive to the romance track):
I had worshipped the Spider Queen for an age and a half, longer than you have been alive, but there came a time when my faith in Lolth was no more. I lapsed when a child... a baby... was to die: it would not have made Lolth stronger or more influential or made her a greater deity. I lost my will that day. One of the lesser priestesses noticed my hesitation and she took the babe's life, herself, eager to usurp my place in Lolth's favor. ... My mother wished me to recant, to prostate myself before the Spider Queen and beg forgiveness. She was desperate that I do so, in fact. But I refused. I was disgusted with my Queen, so I cursed my mother and endangered my House.
Her brother's later actions "sealed the deal", as it were, but the events that led to Viconia's exile started because she refused to sacrifice an infant - something other drow had no problem with.
Edwin sees himself as intellectually superior to everyone else in the same way that a human thinks himself superior to gnats and ants. He is a towering egotist and considers everyone else in the world to be the very dregs of humanity. He makes his disdain for anyone even remotely capable of even speech quite plain. I don't think he would have a problem slaughtering an entire village simply because they are so far beneath him that they simply don't matter. oh, but you are correct that he wouldn't want to sully his hands personally. he'd use magic.
See, I agree with everything you said up to the point where you argue that because he's disdainful of everyone else, he'd slaughter an entire village just for kicks. He's Lawful Evil, after all - when faced with insignificant ants, he's more likely to ignore them because they're not important than deliberately step on them.
But the point is that he did it for a reason - yes, he enjoyed it, because he enjoys violence in general, but he didn't kill them on a whim. I mean, contrast him and Dorn, who actually did slaughter an entire village for no real reason and will kill one of your party members for a slip of the tongue; Korgan never does that.
Even Evil people do things for reasons. But non-evil people don’t take so much pleasure in carnage and mayhem as Korgan did.
This is what Viconia says in BG2 (I don't know if it's exclusive to the romance track):
I had worshipped the Spider Queen for an age and a half, longer than you have been alive, but there came a time when my faith in Lolth was no more. I lapsed when a child... a baby... was to die: it would not have made Lolth stronger or more influential or made her a greater deity. I lost my will that day. One of the lesser priestesses noticed my hesitation and she took the babe's life, herself, eager to usurp my place in Lolth's favor. ... My mother wished me to recant, to prostate myself before the Spider Queen and beg forgiveness. She was desperate that I do so, in fact. But I refused. I was disgusted with my Queen, so I cursed my mother and endangered my House.
Her brother's later actions "sealed the deal", as it were, but the events that led to Viconia's exile started because she refused to sacrifice an infant - something other drow had no problem with.
The inference is that she had repeatedly taken the lives of innocents and Males throughout that ‘Age and a half’. And just because she was unwilling to take the life of the child doesn’t mean that she all of the sudden felt empathy for EVERYONE. The fact that she wouldn’t recant may have had everything to do with the fact that she defied Lolth and was not struck down. Wavering faith can make for a strong motivator to do something other than what your Deity is expecting of you. I don’t see “proof” that she is all of the sudden “One of the good guys”. Nor does one moment of hesitation wash clean all of the blood on her hands. And again I refer you back to what happens with the surface and his friends.
I have no doubt that her moment of crisis leads her ultimately to re-think her former lifestyle, but it takes Charname and the love relationship to convince her to actually change her ways, something that (a) is a physical event and (b) doesn’t happen until she is with the party for quite a while.
See, I agree with everything you said up to the point where you argue that because he's disdainful of everyone else, he'd slaughter an entire village just for kicks. He's Lawful Evil, after all - when faced with insignificant ants, he's more likely to ignore them because they're not important than deliberately step on them.
I may have miss-spoken. I also don’t think that Edwin would wake up on the wrong side of the bed one morning and attempt to wipe out a village because of it. What I meant to indicate is that, if there was something that he wanted and the deaths of that same village were all that stood in his way to get it, he wouldn’t blink twice about burning it all to the ground. Nor would he lose any sleep over the decision.
@the_spyder: I think the problem here is that you're only seeing the extremes of the alignment spectrum - Viconia's decision to spare the baby doesn't suddenly make her Good, but you characterized her as "happily disemboweling anyone in the name of fun and games". Clearly, there are lines she's unwilling to cross, no matter the cost (and that last part is important - it's not just that she refused to kill the baby, it's that she did it knowing her status in drow society would be completely ruined as a result).
By the same token, yes, Edwin will kill anyone if it benefits him specifically; but he won't cast Gate in a tavern just to see a pit fiend rip through the population.
The character types you described are "motiveless malignants" - they just run around slaughtering people for kicks, there's no real reasoning behind their actions. But Korgan, Viconia and Edwin don't qualify for that, because their evil is conditional: they won't butcher a village just because they feel like it.
Comments
It's worth pointing out that the gaps in the NPC pool also benefit the player to a certain extent - it gives you the option of RPing a class that is unique within the group dynamic. Until Baeloth came along, my PC was always the only Sorcerer in the party, which actually helped distinguish him from other mages; by the same token, a Shadowdancer or Cavalier or Wizard Slayer PC is going to stand out simply by virtue of being the only person in the game with those specific abilities.
For me, Jan is almost always my go to thief. Recently I did start including Yoshimo and found him to be quite fun and an excellent addition. However, if I really want to play a thoroughly evil (kick babies type) party, I really don't feel like any of the personalities of the existing thief choices in the standard game quite fit.
Korgan is perfect as he is Korgan. Viconia has the attitude from decades of living in Drow society. Edwin could intimidate a Beholder with his attitude alone. But there it ends. Ok, we will have Dorn in BG2:EE, but... Which is a shame because you have the classic party template of fighter, wizard, cleric. Sure Charname can play a thief, but I just feel there should be more choices than "Play Charname as a thief or have no thief" in that type of party. Good and neutral parties don't have as much problem filling out their roster.
And quite frankly, I really can't see Imoen, Nalia or Jan kicking babies, slitting throats in the night merely for a few coins and a scroll or being cruel to a turnip. However I admit this may be a failing in my Role play skills.
One of the things I'm looking forward to with BG2:EE is taking Hexxat with me to Spellhold; it means I can send Imoen on her way and keep the party as it is through chapters 4 and 5.
Korgan is always talking about how he took his former companions down bloody. Viconia would happily disembowel anyone in the name of fun and games. Edwin might dissect someone merely to see what makes them tick. Saravok would fillet someone just so he could use their blood to clean his sword. Yoshimo might kill maim and pillage with the rest of the bunch, but he wouldn't be volunteering it as a first choice, nor would he draw the same amount of pleasure from the acts as the rest. See the difference?
With that having been said, Jan still ends up in most of my parties.
Jan isn't quite like Neb the Childslayer, but for me he always seems to fit in quite well with an Evil party, and quite uncomfortably with a Good party. I'm pretty convinced that the original developers designed Jan as Evil, but then switched him to Neutral at the last minute, when they realised that there was no level-up-able Thief available to Good parties ... maybe they had originally intended to include a Good Thief instead, but ran out of time?
Just because they're Evil doesn't mean they have to be complete monsters. Even Evil Has Standards, you know.
@Gallowglass: What exactly are you basing that speculation on? Because as far as I know, there's nothing in Jan's personality that demonstrates Evil inclinations - he's just a comic relief figure, and Edwin pretty much covers that for Evil parties with the whole "bitter, bitter woman" scenario...
Furthermore, his personal quest points somewhat that way as well - "The Hidden" whose aid you solicit to solve Jan's quest is actually an illithid (which the game does actually tell you at some point, although I seem to recall that that's in a street conversation rather than inside Jan's quest), and illithids are not the friends of good guys.
However, as I also already said, I accept that other people's impressions of a character may differ from mine.
He also says something to Edwin about his fight against "All that's good and right in the world" - I really think he's more of a goody goodie.
Viconia will tell a story about the male that befrended her when she first tried to settle on the surface. That story didn't end well for him or his friends. And she didn't leave because she refused to be excessively cruel to other drow. Quite to the contrary. She was fine with that. it was because of her brother. Admittedly she can be 'Reformed', but she is fully Drow in every way up until that point.
Edwin sees himself as intellectually superior to everyone else in the same way that a human thinks himself superior to gnats and ants. He is a towering egotist and considers everyone else in the world to be the very dregs of humanity. He makes his disdain for anyone even remotely capable of even speech quite plain. I don't think he would have a problem slaughtering an entire village simply because they are so far beneath him that they simply don't matter. oh, but you are correct that he wouldn't want to sully his hands personally. he'd use magic.
@Gallowglass I have to go with @shawne's assessment of Jan. He comes across a lot more on the goodie-goodie side in my mind. He is fine with swindling someone out of hard earned cash (via the mobile vegetable peddling 'business') but I don't consider him murdering someone in cold blood for instance. He is definitely more neutral than Imoen or Jaheira, but he is more good than evil.
But it is true that impressions of NPCs can significantly vary. All of the above is admittedly my personal opinion and nothing more.
I suppose I, more than alignment, am thinking about raw personality. It is possible to be a really good person (alignment) and be a foul mouth lout (personality) who is always talking about killing. For instance, Anomen starts off by asking you if you are a force for GOOD. he starts off as neutral. And I would not want him in my Bloody Mummers party for that reason alone.
Still, though, I don't see that making him all that evil. Are there other reasons? Again, not trying to badger you, just curious! On the illithid front, is it implied that Jan knows who it is?
But if you were to compare (personality wise) Jan versus Montaron, that might be the difference I am referring too. Monty is quite evil and would slit your throat on a dare. Jan might poke fun at your mother, but he isn't going to kill you in an alley way because you looked at him cross eyed.
Like I said elsewhere. I am sure she knows how to give direction and i'd bet she punishes as lavishly for failure as she rewards for success. Nor would she get squeamish around a little blood. And we already know she knows how to bury a body or two where the authorities will never find them.
Of course that could be my overactive imagination (or addled brain... you pick) getting the better of me.
"Being with this party is sort of like having the Calimshite itch, isn't it? Apart from the uncomfortable burning sensation. And the rash!"
He says it for both very high and very low reps, though I've never hit rep 1 so I cannot confirm if he breaks.
I had worshipped the Spider Queen for an age and a half, longer than you have been alive, but there came a time when my faith in Lolth was no more. I lapsed when a child... a baby... was to die: it would not have made Lolth stronger or more influential or made her a greater deity. I lost my will that day. One of the lesser priestesses noticed my hesitation and she took the babe's life, herself, eager to usurp my place in Lolth's favor. ... My mother wished me to recant, to prostate myself before the Spider Queen and beg forgiveness. She was desperate that I do so, in fact. But I refused. I was disgusted with my Queen, so I cursed my mother and endangered my House.
Her brother's later actions "sealed the deal", as it were, but the events that led to Viconia's exile started because she refused to sacrifice an infant - something other drow had no problem with. See, I agree with everything you said up to the point where you argue that because he's disdainful of everyone else, he'd slaughter an entire village just for kicks. He's Lawful Evil, after all - when faced with insignificant ants, he's more likely to ignore them because they're not important than deliberately step on them.
I have no doubt that her moment of crisis leads her ultimately to re-think her former lifestyle, but it takes Charname and the love relationship to convince her to actually change her ways, something that (a) is a physical event and (b) doesn’t happen until she is with the party for quite a while. I may have miss-spoken. I also don’t think that Edwin would wake up on the wrong side of the bed one morning and attempt to wipe out a village because of it. What I meant to indicate is that, if there was something that he wanted and the deaths of that same village were all that stood in his way to get it, he wouldn’t blink twice about burning it all to the ground. Nor would he lose any sleep over the decision.
By the same token, yes, Edwin will kill anyone if it benefits him specifically; but he won't cast Gate in a tavern just to see a pit fiend rip through the population.
The character types you described are "motiveless malignants" - they just run around slaughtering people for kicks, there's no real reasoning behind their actions. But Korgan, Viconia and Edwin don't qualify for that, because their evil is conditional: they won't butcher a village just because they feel like it.