We are using the term 'new' to indicate that they are 'new to the game.' So yes, Dorn, Neera and Rasaad are new to BG2: They did not exist in BG2 before.
Would you drop Neera or Rasaad or Dorn in favor of a complete new NPC?
A poll would be welcome We've forgotten about Baeloth. He is some sort of additional DLC NPC - hidden NPC - great idea indeed. Why not to do the same trick in BG2EE?
@Shandyr, yes, you can bend the aspects of this issue to make them look new to a select number of people that belong to a selective (or not) group that didn't play BG:EE and get BG2:EE, but that's not a rule, it's an exception.
You can't make an closed statement: "Neera, Dorn and Rasaad are new NPCs in BG2:EE!", based into an exception, that's more or less the core of an fallacy.
I get your point and i even see it valid at some times, but not suffice to make an closed statement.
I hesitate to weigh in, when there's already too much heated disagreement about trivial differences in this thread. Nevertheless, the OP raised an interesting point, so I'll say my piece.
Yes, BG2ee would benefit substantially from more new NPCs than just the four already announced, although it doesn't need very many more. It was always (IMO) a weakness in original BG2 that there were some major gaps in the choice of NPCs available, and a new Edition will indeed be Enhanced if it fills in some of those gaps. Doing this improves re-playability, and it's re-playability which keeps a game alive. Of course the four NPCs already developed certainly help, but we could really use another two or three more, to allow players to explore a fuller range of potential party compositions. In particular, all the classes ought to be represented, so that you can can find an NPC of whatever class you want to accompany your protagonist ... at the moment, having no Barbarian and no Sorcerer (unless you make one yourself) is wasting the potential of the BG2 engine. There's also no NPC with the potential for dual-classing. And there's a striking shortage of non-human NPCs to try out (especially when looking for compatible alignments).
There are various combinations which could address these gaps, but I suggest that we'd have a much more satisfactorily complete range of options if Overhaul gave us an Elf Sorcerer (probably Good this time, since we had a chance to work with an Evil one in BG1ee), a Dwarf Barbarian (Neutral so that s/he can work with any party), a Human vanilla Fighter with stats allowing a dual to Thief (also Neutral, or maybe Good since we had Shar-Teel offering that option for Evil in BG1ee) or maybe even allowing a dual to Mage instead, and a multiclass shorty such as a Gnome Fighter/Thief or Dwarf Fighter/Cleric (again probably Neutral for flexibility). Well, okay, that's four suggestions rather than "two or three", but if Overhaul could add just two or three of these then it'd be a huge further enhancement.
Yes, I do realise that developing new NPCs (and their associated quests or areas) is an expensive process, but (IMO) it's the aspect of BG2 which is in greatest need of some enhancement. I'd pay for a couple of these as chargeable DLC if that's the only way to get it funded.
Well it still costs money to integrate Dorn, Rasaad and Neera (just like Hexxat who is completly new) into the game.
So let's say there is only a budget for 4 characters that can be added in comparison to vBG2.
Would you drop Neera or Rasaad or Dorn in favor of a complete new NPC?
Well (obviously) that's not what Overhaul have decided to do ... but if we could wind back the clock and take those decisions again, then I'd have preferred to see a Sorcerer and a Barbarian (whole new classes not hitherto represented) rather than a Mage-kit and a Paladin-kit, so I'd have designed Neera as a Sorcerer and Dorn as a Barbarian. Since that isn't what actually happened, then yes, I'd be prepared to give up Neera and Dorn in favour of getting a new Sorcerer and a new Barbarian. I wouldn't give up Rasaad, though - it's excellent that we've now got a Monk option.
However, it's obviously much too late to change track now, so I just hope Overhaul will eventually add more NPCs to cover these gaps.
What could give a new perspective for the game, are small time NPCs, i mean, NPCs that only stay with the party for an short period of time, normally in an atempt to complete some quest that both this NPC and the main char share an interest.
An specific NPC to be found in Irenicus Dungeon, that after we leave the place he would leave the party (giving all the items of course, or not all maybe!). Someone to venture with the party against Firkgaark for example, all these NPCs could lead to new quests later, when they're not anymore in the party.
This can bring new NPCs without making the game overpopulated, and making some interesting quests also, while we would be able to experience NPC interactions from a new perspective!
:offtopic: Xan the elven mage actually has an official cousin in the Forgotten Realms. If I'm not mistaken in Icewind Dale1 game there's an elf named Erevain (?). For those who remember - it's the strange elf just in the beginning in a tavern or something like that in Easthaven. He mentioned somewhere that he sounds like his cousin Xan something about "hollow", "doomed". I think he is a fighter, wearing a big bastard Sword with no shield... It would be very funny if he'd be a NPC in Baldur's Gate As we can't have Xan in BG2EE because of licence restrictions.
NPCs that only stay with the party for an short period of time, normally in an atempt to complete some quest that both this NPC and the main char share an interest.
:offtopic: Xan the elven mage actually has an official cousin in the Forgotten Realms. If I'm not mistaken in Icewind Dale1 game there's an elf named Erevain (?). For those who remember - it's the strange elf just in the beginning in a tavern or something like that in Easthaven. He mentioned somewhere that he sounds like his cousin Xan something about "hollow", "doomed". I think he is a fighter, wearing a big bastard Sword with no shield... It would be very funny if he'd be a NPC in Baldur's Gate As we can't have Xan in BG2EE because of licence restrictions.
You find his journal on his corpse in one of the dungeons.
:offtopic: Xan the elven mage actually has an official cousin in the Forgotten Realms. If I'm not mistaken in Icewind Dale1 game there's an elf named Erevain (?). For those who remember - it's the strange elf just in the beginning in a tavern or something like that in Easthaven. He mentioned somewhere that he sounds like his cousin Xan something about "hollow", "doomed". I think he is a fighter, wearing a big bastard Sword with no shield... It would be very funny if he'd be a NPC in Baldur's Gate As we can't have Xan in BG2EE because of licence restrictions.
Well, firstly, I'm not sure on the legalities of that. Overhaul has no rights to anything from Icewind Dale, and that might fall under... I dunno what the English word is. Using other peoples creations. Then again, I'm not sure anyone exist to sue them, but I doubt Overhaul would want to risk it.
Secondly, Icewind Dale takes place I don't know how many years before BG, and he dies during it.
We are using the term 'new' to indicate that they are 'new to the game.' So yes, Dorn, Neera and Rasaad are new to BG2: They did not exist in BG2 before.
For someone who owns BG:EE there is really just 1 new npc. However for someone who is new to the BG:EE series, BG2:EE does introduce 4 new npcs! ^^
Or we could realise that it's not about whether their names and portraits have appeared before but that they will have new content, quests, dialogues, and areas associated with them.
We've entered into the dangerous (and rather dull) territory of semantic arguments.
I think most people agree that more high quality NPCs would be good. I'd go for quality over quantity, personally. 4 is a great start but we greedy folks always want MOAR, and there's currently a separate poll on this forum regarding how much cold hard cash people will be willing to fork over to get them.
As I said it is just my personal opinion as someone who has played through BG1 and 2 many many times. Even if we are coming from different places I think most of us can agree that a greater spread of diverse NPCs would be welcome.
The difficulty with adding NPCs is that they're relatively expensive to make. I know we would absolutely love to add new NPCs, though, so:
Would you be willing to put your money where your mouth is? If we made new NPCs addons, would you be willing to pay for them to fund their creation?
I would easily fork over an extra $40 on top of the original cost of the game just to see more NPC reaction, quests, and versatility. I waited many years for BG1:EE to come, and I can also surely wait longer for BG2:EE. I would fork over an extra $10 on top of that just for the team to spend more time on the project. With the license restrictions, demand, deadlines, and budget restrictions, it is tough to get these things done in a timely manner with great quality. However, I think that we as a long-time player base who had been longing for BG1:EE (or something similar) for many years, we are loyal enough to the game that we can wait more years for the next EE. Just my thoughts, though; I don't know the whole spiel.
That is just what I've been wondering, @Dreadnaught
Does this wish for more NPCs really come from the lack of NPCs in Baldur's Gate 2?
I rather think that some of us have known Baldur's Gate 2 for a very long time now. So we might just have gotten too used to the current NPCs.
I think the wish for new NPCs is rather the wish for experiencing something - anything - new in an environment that we already love.
But now imagine someone who has never played Baldur's Gate 2 before. Who will play it for the very first time in the form of BG2:EE in roughly 2-3 months.
Will that person who meets all the current NPCs + the four that will be added with the EE version understand the request for (even) more NPCs?
So in the end - does the game need more NPCs because it seriously lacks them as a game - or do you wish just for more NPCs because you want to see something new in Baldur's Gate 2?
Very thoughtful; this is what I think as well. I want a new experience with the same game because it is a game I have loved for many years. It's like that one banged-up Ford Escort I had back in the day. It was a really buggy, old, smelly, and rusty car, but I loved it as if it were my blood. This is how I feel about Baldur's Gate.
I think an Undead Hunter would've also been ideal, and fit into the story very well (someone who shares the same goal of crushing Bodhi's vampires).
@SharGuidesMyHand I customized one of my first BG2 parties by having two custom characters, one being an Undead Hunter. I did this for the sake of the plot as well because I thought it very fitting to the story. You encounter many vampires along your travels as well as other undead things such as Skeleton Warriors, so I integrated a little of my own plot inside of the main story, including my Undead Hunter Lantheus.
Honestly? Only if you can prove you can do better than the multitude of NPC addons which are already free via mods. And even then, you'd be working with a distinct disadvantage, because modders can change existing content to a greater extent than Beamdog can.
To be fair, many free NPC mods are limited in all respects, excluding very few such as the Saerileth or Hubelpot NPC mods. You could disagree if you'd like, but the fact still stands that these mods are freeware and largely not donated to (again, with the exception of very few).
If someone has played BG1:EE before and then plays BG2:EE, Dorn, Rassad and Neera are not new for him/her. Okay.
What if someone starts with BG2:EE and never bothered to play BG1:EE? Then err... ALL NPCs are new to him.
What if someone has played vBG1 and vBG2, but has NOT played BG1:EE. But then he starts playing BG2:EE
For him/her only Dorn, Rasaad, Neera and Hexxat are new.
OBVIOUSLY what someone experiences as "new" depends on what that person has experienced before.
Yet in disregard of all that, I'm pretty sure @elminster meant "new" in yet another context. Dorn, Rasaad and Neera are new to BG2:EE because they weren't there in vBG2 They simply are no part of vBG2 and were added later on, that's why they're "new" in this context (It's just a different definition of "new")
I guess the OP wants "new" NPCs in the meaning of "wasn't there in vBG1, vBG2 and BG1:EE".
I actually haven't played BG1:EE, so you're right - the NPCs I am considering are ones that do not yet exist, though I would like to see the ones you have mentioned integrated as well (Dorn, Rasaad, Neera, and Hexxat - whoever they are).
@Shandyr, yes, you can bend the aspects of this issue to make them look new to a select number of people that belong to a selective (or not) group that didn't play BG:EE and get BG2:EE, but that's not a rule, it's an exception.
You can't make an closed statement: "Neera, Dorn and Rasaad are new NPCs in BG2:EE!", based into an exception, that's more or less the core of an fallacy.
I get your point and i even see it valid at some times, but not suffice to make an closed statement.
If you are going to flood the post with a rave of semantics, I beg of you, please kindly remove yourself from here or at least post things relative to the topic -- the argument of “what's new” and “what's old” is bent on a large tangent and with that you are treading on pine needles barefooted.
@Caldegan: That's exactly my point, though - whatever limitations exist on individual mods are counterbalanced by the fact that they're free and, for the most part, are continually improved. If Beamdog were genuinely interested in presenting a more appealing alternative, with the trade-off being that you would have to pay for more characters, they'd need to ensure a consistent level of quality above what we can already get via mods. And I don't think they've proven that yet, because the BG:EE NPCs were extremely limited (albeit by necessity).
@Shandyr, yes, you can bend the aspects of this issue to make them look new to a select number of people that belong to a selective (or not) group that didn't play BG:EE and get BG2:EE, but that's not a rule, it's an exception.
You can't make an closed statement: "Neera, Dorn and Rasaad are new NPCs in BG2:EE!", based into an exception, that's more or less the core of an fallacy.
I get your point and i even see it valid at some times, but not suffice to make an closed statement.
If you are going to flood the post with a rave of semantics, I beg of you, please kindly remove yourself from here or at least post things relative to the topic -- the argument of “what's new” and “what's old” is bent on a large tangent and with that you are treading on pine needles barefooted.
Pff... children. please, avoid quote me or call my name, i have no interest in discuss with unintelligent persons.
@Shandyr, yes, you can bend the aspects of this issue to make them look new to a select number of people that belong to a selective (or not) group that didn't play BG:EE and get BG2:EE, but that's not a rule, it's an exception.
You can't make an closed statement: "Neera, Dorn and Rasaad are new NPCs in BG2:EE!", based into an exception, that's more or less the core of an fallacy.
I get your point and i even see it valid at some times, but not suffice to make an closed statement.
If you are going to flood the post with a rave of semantics, I beg of you, please kindly remove yourself from here or at least post things relative to the topic -- the argument of “what's new” and “what's old” is bent on a large tangent and with that you are treading on pine needles barefooted.
Pff... children. please, avoid quote me or call my name, i have no interest in discuss with unintelligent persons.
Righty-o. Then you'll have no problem leaving this section of the forums. Thank you.
Again i ask, please do not quote me or name me, i have no desire in discuss with someone that can't at least keep a minimum level of respect toward others. While you previous post was agressive and offensive, wasn't my place to solve offenses with offenses, for that i apologise to the other members of this forum.
About remove me from the present discussion, when you get an appointment as the new owner of this private forum, notify me. Until then you have no autorithy to expell someone from a thread and we have nothing further to discuss about.
The very act of attempt to constrain someone to supress his opinion with the clear intent of segregation is aknowledge as a virtual bully, an abusive use of your rights of post.
@Shandyr, yes, you can bend the aspects of this issue to make them look new to a select number of people that belong to a selective (or not) group that didn't play BG:EE and get BG2:EE, but that's not a rule, it's an exception.
You can't make an closed statement: "Neera, Dorn and Rasaad are new NPCs in BG2:EE!", based into an exception, that's more or less the core of an fallacy.
I get your point and i even see it valid at some times, but not suffice to make an closed statement.
If you are going to flood the post with a rave of semantics, I beg of you, please kindly remove yourself from here or at least post things relative to the topic -- the argument of “what's new” and “what's old” is bent on a large tangent and with that you are treading on pine needles barefooted.
Pff... children. please, avoid quote me or call my name, i have no interest in discuss with unintelligent persons.
Righty-o. Then you'll have no problem leaving this section of the forums. Thank you.
Again i ask, please do not quote me or name me, i have no desire in discuss with someone that can't at least keep a minimum level of respect toward others. While you previous post was agressive and offensive, wasn't my place to solve offenses with offenses, for that i apologise to the other members of this forum.
About remove me from the present discussion, when you get an appointment as the new owner of this private forum, notify me. Until then you have no autorithy to expell someone from a thread and we have nothing further to discuss about.
The very act of attempt to constrain someone to supress his opinion with the clear intent of segregation is aknowledge as a virtual bully, an abusive use of your rights of post.
A simple request to stay on the topic of the post or don't post here isn't abusive. I asked you to remove yourself from here if you're going to derail the topic that I posted about with a rave of semantics. It was a request and not a demand but you decided to throw a tantrum and call me an "unintelligent" child. Take note that this comment of yours received 4 abuse flags whereas none of mine received a single one except by you. So if you would like to talk about "virtual bullying" you can do so in my private messages as @Dee has said, but please, for the sake of the topic, remove yourself from here if you're going to 1) derail the topic and 2) lash insults. Again, it is a request not a demand.
Comments
We've forgotten about Baeloth. He is some sort of additional DLC NPC - hidden NPC - great idea indeed.
Why not to do the same trick in BG2EE?
You can't make an closed statement: "Neera, Dorn and Rasaad are new NPCs in BG2:EE!", based into an exception, that's more or less the core of an fallacy.
I get your point and i even see it valid at some times, but not suffice to make an closed statement.
Yes, BG2ee would benefit substantially from more new NPCs than just the four already announced, although it doesn't need very many more. It was always (IMO) a weakness in original BG2 that there were some major gaps in the choice of NPCs available, and a new Edition will indeed be Enhanced if it fills in some of those gaps. Doing this improves re-playability, and it's re-playability which keeps a game alive. Of course the four NPCs already developed certainly help, but we could really use another two or three more, to allow players to explore a fuller range of potential party compositions. In particular, all the classes ought to be represented, so that you can can find an NPC of whatever class you want to accompany your protagonist ... at the moment, having no Barbarian and no Sorcerer (unless you make one yourself) is wasting the potential of the BG2 engine. There's also no NPC with the potential for dual-classing. And there's a striking shortage of non-human NPCs to try out (especially when looking for compatible alignments).
There are various combinations which could address these gaps, but I suggest that we'd have a much more satisfactorily complete range of options if Overhaul gave us an Elf Sorcerer (probably Good this time, since we had a chance to work with an Evil one in BG1ee), a Dwarf Barbarian (Neutral so that s/he can work with any party), a Human vanilla Fighter with stats allowing a dual to Thief (also Neutral, or maybe Good since we had Shar-Teel offering that option for Evil in BG1ee) or maybe even allowing a dual to Mage instead, and a multiclass shorty such as a Gnome Fighter/Thief or Dwarf Fighter/Cleric (again probably Neutral for flexibility). Well, okay, that's four suggestions rather than "two or three", but if Overhaul could add just two or three of these then it'd be a huge further enhancement.
Yes, I do realise that developing new NPCs (and their associated quests or areas) is an expensive process, but (IMO) it's the aspect of BG2 which is in greatest need of some enhancement. I'd pay for a couple of these as chargeable DLC if that's the only way to get it funded.
However, it's obviously much too late to change track now, so I just hope Overhaul will eventually add more NPCs to cover these gaps.
An specific NPC to be found in Irenicus Dungeon, that after we leave the place he would leave the party (giving all the items of course, or not all maybe!). Someone to venture with the party against Firkgaark for example, all these NPCs could lead to new quests later, when they're not anymore in the party.
This can bring new NPCs without making the game overpopulated, and making some interesting quests also, while we would be able to experience NPC interactions from a new perspective!
Xan the elven mage actually has an official cousin in the Forgotten Realms.
If I'm not mistaken in Icewind Dale1 game there's an elf named Erevain (?). For those who remember - it's the strange elf just in the beginning in a tavern or something like that in Easthaven.
He mentioned somewhere that he sounds like his cousin Xan something about "hollow", "doomed".
I think he is a fighter, wearing a big bastard Sword with no shield...
It would be very funny if he'd be a NPC in Baldur's Gate
Secondly, Icewind Dale takes place I don't know how many years before BG, and he dies during it.
I think most people agree that more high quality NPCs would be good. I'd go for quality over quantity, personally. 4 is a great start but we greedy folks always want MOAR, and there's currently a separate poll on this forum regarding how much cold hard cash people will be willing to fork over to get them.
As I said it is just my personal opinion as someone who has played through BG1 and 2 many many times. Even if we are coming from different places I think most of us can agree that a greater spread of diverse NPCs would be welcome.
I customized one of my first BG2 parties by having two custom characters, one being an Undead Hunter. I did this for the sake of the plot as well because I thought it very fitting to the story. You encounter many vampires along your travels as well as other undead things such as Skeleton Warriors, so I integrated a little of my own plot inside of the main story, including my Undead Hunter Lantheus.
To be fair, many free NPC mods are limited in all respects, excluding very few such as the Saerileth or Hubelpot NPC mods. You could disagree if you'd like, but the fact still stands that these mods are freeware and largely not donated to (again, with the exception of very few).
Again i ask, please do not quote me or name me, i have no desire in discuss with someone that can't at least keep a minimum level of respect toward others. While you previous post was agressive and offensive, wasn't my place to solve offenses with offenses, for that i apologise to the other members of this forum.
About remove me from the present discussion, when you get an appointment as the new owner of this private forum, notify me. Until then you have no autorithy to expell someone from a thread and we have nothing further to discuss about.
The very act of attempt to constrain someone to supress his opinion with the clear intent of segregation is aknowledge as a virtual bully, an abusive use of your rights of post.