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BG2:EE Needs to Add MORE NPCs!!! *SPOILERS*

CaldeganCaldegan Member Posts: 33
edited September 2013 in Archive (General Discussion)
EDITED 9/6/13:
Okay, so I've been thinking about this ever since BG2 came out. I've installed many NPC mods to get the effect of having more possible joinable NPCs. But this never really amounted to the roleplaying experience I could get from Bioware's NPCs (i.e. very few NPC mods come with quests and good voice acting). I think in BG2:EE there needs to be MUCH more NPCs than there are in the current BG2 game.

In vanilla BG1 there is a grand total of 25 joinable NPCs:
Ajantis
Paladin

Alora
Thief

Branwen
Cleric

Coran
Fighter/Thief

Dynaheir
Invoker

Edwin
Conjurer

Eldoth
Bard

Faldorn
Druid

Garrick
Bard

Imoen
Thief

Jaheira
Fighter/Druid

Kagain
Fighter

Khalid
Fighter

Kivan
Ranger

Minsc
Ranger

Montaron
Fighter/Thief

Quayle

Safana
Thief

Shar-Teel
Fighter

Skie
Thief

Tiax
Cleric/Thief

Viconia
Cleric

Xan
Enchanter

Xzar
Necromancer

Yeslick
Fighter/Cleric


But in BG2:
Aerie
Cleric/Mage

Anomen
Cleric/Fighter

Cernd
Shapeshifter

Edwin
Conjurer

Haer'Dalis
Blade

Imoen
Mage/Thief

Jaheira
Fighter/Druid

Jan
Illusionist/Thief

Keldorn
Inquisitor

Korgan
Berserker

Mazzy
Fighter

Minsc
Ranger

Nalia
Mage/Thief

Sarevok
Fighter

Valygar
Stalker

Viconia
Cleric

Yoshimo
Bounty Hunter


The number of wizards outweigh the number of thieves, but to me, this should not be. The Shadow Thieves play a huge role in your entire questline, but yet there are no standard thieves, with the exception being the Bounty Hunter Yoshimo. I understand that in Athkatla--with the ban on wizardry without license--magic is widely used, but the Shadow Thieves guild is immense, whereas the only spellcasters you'll find in any sort of, well, "gathering," is in Spellhold--the Cowled Wizards' asylum for deviant spellcasters.

Also, in BG2, you can't use Imoen until you get to Spellhold IIRC. So that one decent thief you can use is put on the back burner until mid-game. Don't get me wrong, I love the plot of this and how she is involved, but it puts hindrance on the thief class.

Next is Yoshimo. For one thing, his portrait, to me, is quite the Asian stereotype, and his dialogue is also very karate-movie-esque. This is just me being picky, though. This reason, along with the next, is why I think there need to be more NPCs, because some (like Yoshimo) are just poorly written. Also, you cannot use him as much as you'd like, because (spoiler alert):
He betrays you to Irenicus when he gets put under a geas by Bodhi, consequentially ending in the untimely death of Yoshimo.
This is an amazing plot twist, in my opinion, but it still contributes to the loss of the available thieves.

The lack of NPCs compared to BG1 is not so much a mistake on Bioware's part as it is a time constraint in their project, but I think the stories of the NPCs should have intertwined more; with only 17 total NPCs, there is room to do this, I believe.

In regards to gameplay rather than roleplay, though, I'd love to see more thieves and clerics, as well at least one more kit for each subdivision of classes; I know, maybe this sounds like too much, but think about it because you have:

6 multi- and dual-classed characters (three of which are multi- and dual-classed thieves)
6 kitted characters
5 standard characters

So on that note, the NPC list should include at least a couple from this list:

Sorcerer (in the city of Athkatla, where magic is banned, an evil sorcerer NPC is quite feasible)

Monk (a very good class, and from what I've read and watched, a drastically underused one)

Barbarian (also a great class, and with so many wilderness areas available, it shouldn't be too difficult to find a barbaric dwarf or something)

Kensai (overly used class IMHO, but would be nice to find an NPC that can decently wield the katanas, wakazashi, and ninja-to we find in the game [ye know, the ones that are likely sold if a kensai is not in the party anyway])

Swashbuckler (a decent thief class, and could be found on the Githyanki island or in the Sahuagin area. Githyanki always reminded me of pirates, anyway.)

Assassin (I would propose to find this one in ToB, only because the assassin isn't IMO a great class until large levels)

Cavalier (with only one available paladin class in the NPC list, I think this would be a great addition. With the amount of demons and dragons you find in the game, a cavalier is almost a must, with his bonuses towards demonic and draconic creatures.)

Wizard Slayer (dwarves have an innate distaste for magic, thus why you cannot class a dwarf as a mage without a mod - maybe Korgan has a brother somewhere?)

Jester (mostly for comic relief. Remember the annoying spellcaster-turned-bard in the Mithrest Inn? Someone like him would be a comical addition)

and last but not least:

Wild Mage (okay, you guys have to agree with me on this. The Throne of Bhaal expansion adds an entirely new experience with magic; you meet many enemies who use wild magic in traps and in their spellbooks, especially in Watcher's Keep. Why not have an NPC? Neera in BG:EE is the only existing one right now as far as I know. It would be great to see an NPC who shares relations with the Zhentarim Xzar, is just as maniacal and, dare I say, wild.)

Okay, so I've made my rant that's been a decade in the making. Feel free to leave suggestions, IDEAS, and comments below! I'd love to hear what you guys think of this!
Post edited by Caldegan on
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Comments

  • DMKDMK Member Posts: 14
    Caldegan said:


    and last but not least:

    WILD MAGE!!! (come on!! this class was added in ToB, the least you could do was throw us a bone and give us a Wild Mage joinable NPC and not Sarevok!!)

    uuhmm...Neera?!? Ô_o

  • CaldeganCaldegan Member Posts: 33
    DMK said:

    Caldegan said:


    and last but not least:

    WILD MAGE!!! (come on!! this class was added in ToB, the least you could do was throw us a bone and give us a Wild Mage joinable NPC and not Sarevok!!)

    uuhmm...Neera?!? Ô_o

    I meant the characters that are in vanilla BG2 right now.
  • darrenkuodarrenkuo Member Posts: 366
    I feel BG2-EE need to make sure below points first then consider new NPC later,

    Stable Performace - I have two NB , one work fine , another game broken ,

    Better UI - After 15 years later , i think curret BG-EE UI is still has room to imrove ,

    Multipaly - Basic function , it's enhanced version,

    Better graphic effects - i am not engineer , but current PC's hardware , can't we get better spell ,water ,weather effects ?

    I pre-order both of BG-EE , BG2-EE , i am think current BG-EE still can't meet above four basic points,

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    It's not a numbers game - BG1 may have more characters but they're one-dimensional ciphers. How many of those 25 actually have their own storyline? How many of them undergo any kind of character development? Because that's something every single NPC in BG2 has, to some extent or other.
  • blackchimesblackchimes Member Posts: 323
    The only class that is underrepresented in BG2 is Thief. And the new BG2 NPC will be a Thief.

    So I see no problem here.
  • zupskyzupsky Member Posts: 126
    Well, I don't mind bg 1 npc being quiet all the time. Even without all the banter, conversations and romances I have always felt that I got to know them really well. I've always had reasons why I liked and disliked certain characters. Xzar is cray cray, Xan is depressing, Imoen annoying and Alora sweet. And we knew this stuff only by listening to theirs voice sets and looking at amazing portraits.
    That's why I wouldn't mind if we had more npcs in BG2:EE with less banters.
  • davendaven Member Posts: 112
    Umm... I'd rather have higher quality NPC's which actually talk and have sidequests then the mute NPC's in BG1
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    bengoshi said:

    Comparing the number of NPCs in BG1 and BG2 is a wrong path, I think. Quality > Quantity. The NPCs in BG2 are much more written, their stories are improved. They have good quests.

    That's why it's better to get a good personality, an NPC with a soul and a heart. Even if it's only one well-written NPC, I'd take it instead of 3-4 inanimate characters.

    This. How much more content is there in ONLY 17 BG2 NPC over 25 BG1 ones? I'd guess at least three times more.
  • pixie359pixie359 Member Posts: 251
    I don't think I've ever really had a problem with there being too few NPCs, except for in a couple of classes. I have wanted to play around with a monk and wild mage more than I've had chance, while not really fancying them as my PC. Thankfully, these are going to be available. However, having limited characters makes it a bit more of an interesting challenge to balance a party, both in combat and RP terms.

    I tend not to play evil, so although the thief problem doesn't affect me, I see what they are doing.

    I don't care about new NPCs as much as I care about new content - whether that's more good quality dialogue, areas to explore or enemies to fight. NPCs can help deliver that, but they are only one route.
  • trinittrinit Member Posts: 705
    weird that you would put list of NPC's in spoiler tag but leave yoshimo storyline COMPLETELY exposed.

    anyhow, i think with new NPC's number climbs up to 21. that is respectable especially since every one of them has about the same amount of content than all of the bg1 NPC's put together.
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,861
    zupsky said:

    Well, I don't mind bg 1 npc being quiet all the time. Even without all the banter, conversations and romances I have always felt that I got to know them really well. I've always had reasons why I liked and disliked certain characters. Xzar is cray cray, Xan is depressing, Imoen annoying and Alora sweet. And we knew this stuff only by listening to theirs voice sets and looking at amazing portraits.
    That's why I wouldn't mind if we had more npcs in BG2:EE with less banters.

    I agree (except for the bit about Imoen being annoying - I think she's lovely). I prefer the BG1 interactions to the reams of text you get in BG2.

  • MathmickMathmick Member Posts: 326
    There are fewer party members in BG2 because they actually put the time and effort to add personality and depth to each character.

    Contrast to BG1 where every single party member is either a cliché or a single personality trait stretched to its absolute limit, plus a random level 1 Mage spell as a special ability. Sure there's a little more variety from character to character, but they all end up either grating on your nerves or fading into the background.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Class-wise, BG2 is - finally - covered, with the new thief, nothing is truly missing anymore. I don't think the game NEEDS more NPCs. However, I could live with 1 or 2 new ones, if they are shorties. Many people like playing all shorty parties and there aren't enough for that in BG2. If it was up to me, I'd add a female dwarf and a male halfling, and see that they use kits (or classes, if Barbarian) that are specialized and set them apart from the other NPCs of their class. With Mazzy and Korgan as fighters and Jan as thief/mage, one of them would probably be a cleric, so all shorty roles are covered.
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    Well, Kitted Clerics... You only had Priest of Lathander, Helm and Talos originally as kits, and will unless BG2:EE adds more... And the 3 cleric NPCs you had... Viconia worships Shar, no kit for that... Aerie is multiclass so no kit for her and Anomen, I do believe he is dualled into a cleric and you can't take a kit on your 2nd class...
  • trinittrinit Member Posts: 705
    some new cleric kits would be awesome. bane, selune, oghma to name a few good counterparts to existing kits.

    they could still get stronghold but get treated as generic good/neutral/evil cleric currently is in-game.
  • AndyMAndyM Member Posts: 21
    All of the new Overhaul BG characters will be taken across into BG2 - so that ups the numbers. I also prefer more banter and NPC interaction. BG2 was so much better in that regard. I would like to see more choice as well though if it was possisle to interlink all the banter / NPC interaction. Adding jusy one new character must creat a lot of work to tie in all the banter with existing NPC's.
    mch202 said:

    BG2:EE needs a good alignment DWARF npc!!!

    Yep, I'd also like to see a Good or Neutral Dwarf Fighter, Cleric or Fighter / Cleric.
  • LinkamusLinkamus Member Posts: 221
    I'd love to see an Archer NPC, or a Sorcerer NPC. Someday.
  • GoldenEggGoldenEgg Member Posts: 23
    As others have said, the quality of 2 outweighs the quantity in 1 for me. At this point new Npcs would be good for 'freshening up' an old game, not so much righting any sort of wrong and i'm positive the new 4 will do just that.
  • DarkDoggDarkDogg Member Posts: 598
    mch202 said:

    BG2:EE needs a good alignment DWARF npc!!!

    Good alignet dwarf Barbarian, wearing the cloak of balduran!!
  • redlineredline Member Posts: 296
    I think more NPCs would be awesome, because I feel like the general production values of mod NPCs just don't stack up against what Bioware, and now Overhaul, have done. Which isn't to say I don't appreciate modders' efforts, mind you; they just don't always work out for me.

    That said, I agree with what everyone else has said regarding quality vs quantity. A side by side comparison of BG1 and BG2 is apples and oranges. So more NPCs would be wonderful, but it's hardly necessary.

    Also, deducting both Yoshimo and Imoen from your count seems odd. The game leads you seamlessly from one to the other, with no gaps in between... 0.5 + 0.5 = 1, not 0.
  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,438
    mch202 said:

    BG2:EE needs a good alignment DWARF npc!!!

    Yep, I'd also like to see a Good or Neutral Dwarf Fighter, Cleric or Fighter / Cleric.

    Named Yeslick. :(
  • CaldeganCaldegan Member Posts: 33
    trinit said:

    weird that you would put list of NPC's in spoiler tag but leave yoshimo storyline COMPLETELY exposed.
    anyhow, i think with new NPC's number climbs up to 21. that is respectable especially since every one of them has about the same amount of content than all of the bg1 NPC's put together.

    To be fair, this is the General Discussion: SPOILER WARNING section of the forums and I only spoilered the list because it would hog most of the page, but I will edit the post.

    Also, I'm not saying that I think quantity > quality, I just think there needs to be more characters with more content, not just more characters. I'd like to see some of the NPCs' stories intertwine and connect together as well.
  • CaldeganCaldegan Member Posts: 33
    mch202 said:

    BG2:EE needs a good alignment DWARF npc!!!

    Agreed. Maybe someone from the Thunderhammer clan?
  • CaldeganCaldegan Member Posts: 33
    AndyM said:

    All of the new Overhaul BG characters will be taken across into BG2 - so that ups the numbers. I also prefer more banter and NPC interaction. BG2 was so much better in that regard. I would like to see more choice as well though if it was possisle to interlink all the banter / NPC interaction. Adding jusy one new character must creat a lot of work to tie in all the banter with existing NPC's.

    mch202 said:

    BG2:EE needs a good alignment DWARF npc!!!

    Yep, I'd also like to see a Good or Neutral Dwarf Fighter, Cleric or Fighter / Cleric.
    Yes this was actually the point I was going to make. I think the stories of the NPCs and their banter should somehow connect instead of being isolated. Like Anomen's quest to become a Paladin, that doesn't last very long; it would be nice to see a large, few-hour long NPC quest that involved a few of the NPCs.
  • CaldeganCaldegan Member Posts: 33
    redline said:


    Also, deducting both Yoshimo and Imoen from your count seems odd. The game leads you seamlessly from one to the other, with no gaps in between... 0.5 + 0.5 = 1, not 0.

    That was an oops on my part. Forgive me :)
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