Missing informations about natural bonuses to thieves skills

Edvin

All race ( except human ) have natural bonuses ( and penalties ) to thieves skills. This informations missing in their description in race selection. It should be there.

Race_--_Pick Pocket___Open Locks____Find Traps___Move Silently___Hide in Shadows___Detect Illusion__Set Traps
Human_=__0______________0_____________0_____________0________________0___________________0___________0
Elf_____=_+5_____________-5_____________0____________+5_____________+10__________________0___________0
Half-Elf=+10_____________0______________0_____________0______________+5___________________0___________0
Gnome=___0_____________+5__________+10____________+5_____________+5_________________+10_________+5
Halfling=_+5_____________+5___________+5___________+10____________+15__________________0____________0
Dwarf__=__0____________+10__________+15_____________0_______________0__________________+5_________+10
Half-Orc=_0______________0_____________0______________0_______________0___________________0___________0

Gallowglass

Good point, @Edvin. The table is included in the manual for the original BG2 (not BG1), and is also available various places online, but the BGee documentation omitted most of the tables.

Aedan

@Jalily @Dee

Dee

Got it; thanks.

EDIT: As a quick update--the values in your post above, @Edvin, are not the same as the ones used in-game. That will definitely need to be addressed somewhere.

Gallowglass

@Dee - the values in @Edvin's post are the ones which are widely published, including on sites which pride themselves on accurate detailed data. If they're nevertheless the wrong values, that's quite significant. (I'm sure many people have based character-creation choices on the assumption that this table is correct!)

I've therefore just spent some time checking it out for myself, rolling a set of vanilla Thieves of every playable race, all with identical DEX, and comparing the initial values of every Thief skill. I'm reluctant to contradict a member of the official team ... but my test results are completely identical to @Edvin's table. Are you sure there's an error, and if so then can you please explain further?

TJ_Hooker

Humans and half-orcs, by default, get 15 to Pick Pockets, 10 to Open Locks, 5 to Find Traps, 10 to Move Silently, and 5 to Hide In Shadows. I believe the bonuses listed in the above table are the additional bonuses that the different races get, on top of the 'base' values that humans and half-orcs get.

Dee

@TJ_Hooker has it correct. Every race starts with the human/half-orc values as a base, and then adds their racial bonuses on top of it.

So if we're going to document them, it makes sense to document the entire value.

Gallowglass

Ah yes, @Dee, that's a plausible alternative way of looking at it.

I was taking it for granted that we were starting from the default allocation of 15/10/5/10/5/0/0, since we're calling the adjustments bonuses, and on that basis @Edvin's table is correct.

Instead, we could have a table called "Thieving Skills for each Race" (showing the totals, as you propose), instead of "Thieving Skill Racial Adjustments" (which is the title in the original BG2 manual, showing only racial bonuses rather than racial totals).

Dee

Probably what will happen is the total modifier will simply be added to the race descriptions; that way you know exactly what you're getting when you choose your race.

TJ_Hooker

Just for the record, here is the actual table from the SKILLRAC.2DA

		PICK_POCKETS	OPEN_LOCKS	FIND_TRAPS	MOVE_SILENTLY	HIDE_IN_SHADOWS	DETECT_ILLUSION	SET_TRAPS
HUMAN		15		10		5		10		5		0		0
DWARF		15		20		20		10		5		5		10
ELF		20		5		5		15		15		0		0
GNOME		15		15		15		15		10		10		5
HALF_ELF	25		10		5		10		10		0		0
HALFLING	20		15		10		20		20		0		0
HALFORC		15		10		5		10		5		0		0