I've always liked monks thematically, in much due to my preference for characters that don't rely on powerful items to become what they are. To anyone who likes the idea of monks though, I'd recommend the monk HLA:s from the Oversight mod - as monks currently stand with the fighter HLA table they're not really a fully realized class, and due to the abundance of very powerful magical items in BG2 and ToB (and immunity to haste), a standard monk has a hard time competing with a warrior or paladin even in the late game when they enjoy all of their benefits.
The modded monk HLA:s (based on Balthazar's Ascension abilities and implemented very well) helps to balance this out and makes monks feel a lot more unique.
We can all agree that, despite being quite strong in and of themselves, monks are far from the most powerful and "optimized" classes in the end game. But who cares? They're damn fun, that's what they are! I play them only to make enemies explode with my fists and kill dragons with a single hit.
Also @Southpaw, what makes Dark Moon monks weak? Losing your healing ability isn't a big deal (I know I almost always forget it even exists), same with Stunning Fist (you'll never hit anyone with it in BGEE, and enemies will almost always save against it in BG2). While Blur and Mirror Image really help to mitigate the monk's low HP and AC.
Also @Southpaw, what makes Dark Moon monks weak? Losing your healing ability isn't a big deal (I know I almost always forget it even exists), same with Stunning Fist (you'll never hit anyone with it in BGEE, and enemies will almost always save against it in BG2). While Blur and Mirror Image really help to mitigate the monk's low HP and AC.
I admit I never played a Dark Moon monk yet. Judging just from the class description and opinions of several forum posters I have seen - the kit could have been stronger. Besides - the monks I've met in Rasaad's quest are pushovers at best. Please, do not think I am condemning the Dark Moon monk. Simply expressing *my* opinion. Which may or may not be flawed.
However, I beg to differ, that "you will never hit anyone with it in BGEE" - I did. And did a lot. And stunned many enemies in my game. Unreliable. Yes. Unusable. No.
Why isn't there a monk kit/subclass that knows the efficient use of HEAVY ARMOR ?! These monks could be master armorcrafters, hence why they can modify a full-plate mail to be used by them. They sacrifice movement speed bonus and the special attacks and wisdom bonus to AC, instead AC adds to unarmed damage !
I love the concept of heavy armored martial artists. Iron golem juniors.
I dislike monks (and the kensai kit, contrary to the usual popularity) because they simply don't fit in the fantasy setting. To me, both monk and kensai seem out of place on the Sword Coast. It's like Bruce Lee randomly appearing in Lord of the Rings. I have never played either because I can't see such a character growing up in Candlekeep.
If Bruce Lee turned up in LoR, the one ring would have been turned into a knuckle duster and Sauron would have had a bad time.
Plus Hobbits with Nunchucks RULE!
EDIT: If I made a monk would it be a Mummie Monk or a Monk Mummie? Can't decide...
I love the concept of heavy armored martial artists.
Sounds completely opposite to what the D&D monk (and its sources of inspiration) stand for imo, i.e. harnessing the power of their minds and bodies and turning them into weapons as well as armour.
Heh. Agree. There could be other ways to kit monks, like mix them with Thieves a bit more, or add some minor divine spellcasting, similar to a Paladin (Monks are supposed to be something like a Cleric kit - they can already use Cleric scrolls). But adding armor is against the whole "fast and agile warrior" setup. (Even tho it could be interesting, to have a warrior in full plate, punching the baddies)
Actually the fighting monk IS a cleric kit. (it's a cleric that gets stronger unarmed attacks as they level, benefits from warrior thac0 and extra attacks while unarmed, but has weaker spell-casting with very limited sphere access and can't wear armor with a base AC better then 5. When unarmored they also get a small bonus to AC and slight speed boost).
The BG monk on the other hand if taken almost perfectly from the 2nd Edition OA monk (the OA monk just has full thief skills at a 15 skill point penalty, earns bonuses faster, but caps at lvl 17, no exceptions).
Where the monk is basically an honorable alternate thief, since Samurai or other honorable classes won't work with dishonorable classes such as thieves or ninja but still have need of the utility they bring. Their thief skills just being a side-effect of mastering every aspect of themselves.
Why isn't there a monk kit/subclass that knows the efficient use of HEAVY ARMOR ?! These monks could be master armorcrafters, hence why they can modify a full-plate mail to be used by them. They sacrifice movement speed bonus and the special attacks and wisdom bonus to AC, instead AC adds to unarmed damage !
I love the concept of heavy armored martial artists. Iron golem juniors.
their fluff forbids it... D&D is very restrictive of what kind of character it allows you to play. Wizards are weak twigs who wear dresses, no muscle wizards need apply. Monks take a vow to not wear armor (in 3e all their class features are disabled while they wear it). etc.
It's not that they take a vow, most of their combat bonuses require absolute freedom of movement, which armor prevents.
Same thing with a Kensai.
The Gut-busters are berserkers (Battle-ragers specifically, as mentioned in the berserker description). Only Thibbeldorf's armor had blades/spikes on it for that explicit purpose. The rest just worked themselves into a rapid/suicidal frenzy and jumped into combat with whatever weapons they had on hand, attacking with wild abandon.
It's not that they take a vow, most of their combat bonuses require absolute freedom of movement, which armor prevents.
Sorry, confused it with 3e again. In 3e they take an actual vow and lose all class abilities while they violate it, same as a druid wearing metal armor
Nah, even in 3rd edition, it specifically says which things they lose, because most of their abilities requires them to fight unencumbered and any armor or even carrying more then a light load will deny them their bonus attacks, speed bonus, monk ac, cleave, improved evasion, slow fall or activated abilities.
Their status protections like fist-damage, poison immunity and spell resistance are retained, since that's due to them strengthening the power of their soul/body/attacks via mastery of their Ki. None of that requires mobility or free-movement.
And unlike a Druid who does have a vow violation, the monk simply has to remove the offending armor to regain their mobility-benefits, while Druids are rendered powerless for 24 hours afterward as punishment for knowingly breaking their vows.
And unlike a Druid who does have a vow violation, the monk simply has to remove the offending armor to regain their mobility-benefits, while Druids are rendered powerless for 24 hours afterward as punishment for breaking their vows.
Got me thinking ... how to troll Druids as a Bard Jester or so - "Try this armor on, you wouldn't believe it is not made out of metal."
I have heard that the Dark Moon Monk is going to get some improvements in the upcoming patch. Got me thinking and I looked at the kit description. But I am unsure about this: "Perception: -2 to saves against Illusion". I was thinking about some spells that this might come useful...namely Horror, Charm or Hold Person. They aren't Illusions. Also, the other - damaging spells - are usually Invocation or Conjuration. Is this one actually useful, or just another "advantage" that is not really an advantage?
Funny, I remember reading how misfits monks are in FR setting, since they would stand no chance vs a fully armored warrior. That was the main point of the reviewer.
In the original discussion the guy went with fullplate to compare, I thought that was a really poor choice of analogy for his argument.:
Considering that a traditional fullplate is approx as balanced as a chair with 2,5 legs I see how a trained monk would legsweep the warrior in one move, and finish him off with another.
Of course promoting realism in FR setting is rather futile, I still think he had a funny choice to pick on monks on that other site I read.
@Gave - I'd say that Full Plate has it's merits. Such as mobility does. And Full Plate is logically easier to use for defense by novices, but the monk class is all about someone who trained their whole life to harden their body and mind. And that is easily justifiable in FR setting, where magic is being served for breakfast. (Any fighter would tell you that a mobile 75kg trained boxer would have no problems dispatching a 120kg fat bully - mobility and speed)
I have heard that the Dark Moon Monk is going to get some improvements in the upcoming patch. Got me thinking and I looked at the kit description. But I am unsure about this: "Perception: -2 to saves against Illusion". I was thinking about some spells that this might come useful...namely Horror, Charm or Hold Person. They aren't Illusions. Also, the other - damaging spells - are usually Invocation or Conjuration. Is this one actually useful, or just another "advantage" that is not really an advantage?
Its basically just a saving bonus vs the "blindness" and "deafness" spells.
I have heard that the Dark Moon Monk is going to get some improvements in the upcoming patch. Got me thinking and I looked at the kit description. But I am unsure about this: "Perception: -2 to saves against Illusion". I was thinking about some spells that this might come useful...namely Horror, Charm or Hold Person. They aren't Illusions. Also, the other - damaging spells - are usually Invocation or Conjuration. Is this one actually useful, or just another "advantage" that is not really an advantage?
Its basically just a saving bonus vs the "blindness" and "deafness" spells.
I don't remember being ever blinded in BG games...maybe once or twice, so that "advantage" is not really an advantage. If only they would change it to something actually useful, like +2 against spells (because they have some innate magical capabilities).
...anyway. I was intrigued by the challenge and I will try soloing the game with a Dark Moon Monk one the patch goes live. (I heard the DMM will get some changes in the patch. I hope for good ones) Also, I will try some different things this time, use some other items this time (Claw of Kazgaroth comes to mind for example). I will post a report about it.
Monks are INSANELY powerful by endgame and brutally pathetic in early game. They can get shot down from missile weapons in early game if you aren't careful. And in endgame they will deflect missiles like its nothing. I soloed Bg 2 with one but still couldn't solo Throne of Bhaal
Soloing BG1 is an epic challenge. You have to really know how to avoid certain situations alltogether and do zero combat quests until you hit level 4. It's brutal.
The biggest weakness with monks is the lack of helmets, even when their AC gets decent they are two unlucky die rolls away from death. It's a tough burden when you are playing a martial combat style and you want to be able to stand in there for more than a round or two.
Not being allowed to be hasted, I understand this, but it's also a burden.
No shields, I like to use Buckley's Buckler for solo runs and gain 20 Con regeneration. It's a massive help when soloing.
If only monks had some equipment in-game they could use. Like at least one Ioun Stone. Or something for Evil monks. Both monk-items in the game are for Lawful Good monks only. (*grumble* Lawful Stupid simians *grumble*)
because most of their abilities requires them to fight unencumbered and any armor or even carrying more then a light load will deny them their bonus attacks, speed bonus, monk ac, cleave, improved evasion, slow fall or activated abilities.
which is a total BS argument. However, you seem to be correct and the PHB specifies that as the reason instead of a vow. So I don't know where I came up with the vow thing, I must have imagined it
Comments
The modded monk HLA:s (based on Balthazar's Ascension abilities and implemented very well) helps to balance this out and makes monks feel a lot more unique.
Also @Southpaw, what makes Dark Moon monks weak? Losing your healing ability isn't a big deal (I know I almost always forget it even exists), same with Stunning Fist (you'll never hit anyone with it in BGEE, and enemies will almost always save against it in BG2). While Blur and Mirror Image really help to mitigate the monk's low HP and AC.
Please, do not think I am condemning the Dark Moon monk. Simply expressing *my* opinion. Which may or may not be flawed.
However, I beg to differ, that "you will never hit anyone with it in BGEE" - I did. And did a lot. And stunned many enemies in my game. Unreliable. Yes. Unusable. No.
Why isn't there a monk kit/subclass that knows the efficient use of HEAVY ARMOR ?! These monks could be master armorcrafters, hence why they can modify a full-plate mail to be used by them. They sacrifice movement speed bonus and the special attacks and wisdom bonus to AC, instead AC adds to unarmed damage !
I love the concept of heavy armored martial artists. Iron golem juniors.
Plus Hobbits with Nunchucks RULE!
EDIT: If I made a monk would it be a Mummie Monk or a Monk Mummie? Can't decide...
There could be other ways to kit monks, like mix them with Thieves a bit more, or add some minor divine spellcasting, similar to a Paladin (Monks are supposed to be something like a Cleric kit - they can already use Cleric scrolls). But adding armor is against the whole "fast and agile warrior" setup.
(Even tho it could be interesting, to have a warrior in full plate, punching the baddies)
The BG monk on the other hand if taken almost perfectly from the 2nd Edition OA monk (the OA monk just has full thief skills at a 15 skill point penalty, earns bonuses faster, but caps at lvl 17, no exceptions).
Where the monk is basically an honorable alternate thief, since Samurai or other honorable classes won't work with dishonorable classes such as thieves or ninja but still have need of the utility they bring. Their thief skills just being a side-effect of mastering every aspect of themselves.
Same thing with a Kensai.
The Gut-busters are berserkers (Battle-ragers specifically, as mentioned in the berserker description). Only Thibbeldorf's armor had blades/spikes on it for that explicit purpose. The rest just worked themselves into a rapid/suicidal frenzy and jumped into combat with whatever weapons they had on hand, attacking with wild abandon.
I'd be glad to hear the thoughts and critique of fellow monk-players and monk-theorizes.
Their status protections like fist-damage, poison immunity and spell resistance are retained, since that's due to them strengthening the power of their soul/body/attacks via mastery of their Ki. None of that requires mobility or free-movement.
And unlike a Druid who does have a vow violation, the monk simply has to remove the offending armor to regain their mobility-benefits, while Druids are rendered powerless for 24 hours afterward as punishment for knowingly breaking their vows.
Got me thinking and I looked at the kit description. But I am unsure about this: "Perception: -2 to saves against Illusion".
I was thinking about some spells that this might come useful...namely Horror, Charm or Hold Person. They aren't Illusions. Also, the other - damaging spells - are usually Invocation or Conjuration.
Is this one actually useful, or just another "advantage" that is not really an advantage?
In the original discussion the guy went with fullplate to compare, I thought that was a really poor choice of analogy for his argument.:
Considering that a traditional fullplate is approx as balanced as a chair with 2,5 legs I see how a trained monk would legsweep the warrior in one move, and finish him off with another.
Of course promoting realism in FR setting is rather futile, I still think he had a funny choice to pick on monks on that other site I read.
(Any fighter would tell you that a mobile 75kg trained boxer would have no problems dispatching a 120kg fat bully - mobility and speed)
Also, I will try some different things this time, use some other items this time (Claw of Kazgaroth comes to mind for example). I will post a report about it.
The biggest weakness with monks is the lack of helmets, even when their AC gets decent they are two unlucky die rolls away from death. It's a tough burden when you are playing a martial combat style and you want to be able to stand in there for more than a round or two.
Not being allowed to be hasted, I understand this, but it's also a burden.
No shields, I like to use Buckley's Buckler for solo runs and gain 20 Con regeneration. It's a massive help when soloing.
It's a challenge
If only monks had some equipment in-game they could use. Like at least one Ioun Stone. Or something for Evil monks. Both monk-items in the game are for Lawful Good monks only. (*grumble* Lawful Stupid simians *grumble*)
However, you seem to be correct and the PHB specifies that as the reason instead of a vow.
So I don't know where I came up with the vow thing, I must have imagined it