Whoa! Isn't this supposed to be run in AD&D 2nd Edition?
Darek_Death
Member Posts: 56
I'm not really sure what category this would go under... Let me explain; After reaching the exp limit in BGEE I researched a way to remove it and got NearInfinity to remove the exp cap on the game. I decided to browse around the 2DAs and noticed that the game was only programmed to level 40. After completing BGEE I tried to import my party to the Black Pits, it'd only let me move my main char so I decided to solo it. The second to last fight, with the fire giant, gives over 300,000 exp and as a Fighter thats 1 level per battle, so I decided to increase the maximum level to 100.
I have never played D&D/AD&D but I have been playing Forgotten Realms video games since the first Baldur's Gate so I'm somewhat familiar with how the game works and I know its made using AD&D 2nd Edition (AD&D2) rules; and I've made myself familiar with how the programming works with the 2DAs (most of it's not complicated). But to expand the game to level 100 I needed to check the AD&D2 rule books (which my dad has) to make sure I correctly program the exp requirement for next levels, the saving throws / level, MXSPL, et cetera for every class. Now we're getting to the part that stopped me dead and prompted me to post this Discussion:
One of the first things I noticed was that, while AD&D was designed to go up in levels indefinitely, AD&D 2nd Edition was specifically designed to stop at the standardized level 20 for all classes. No big deal, its obvious enough to see the pattern and I can read the AD&D 1st Edition manual for details on continuing past the table they've included if I need to (except with say Bards, which didn't exist in 1st Edition). I mention it just to use as an indicator about Baldur's Gate including BG2 which goes past level 20 isn't strictly AD&D2.
But the part that really got me was the HPWAR (Hit Points for Warrior classes like Fighters), which in the game is 1d10 for levels (L) 1-9 and 3 for L10 and up, which is barely remotely resembling the hit die for the warrior exp table in AD&D/AD&D2 (which are the same in both) which show the number of d10 reflecting the level for 1-9, and level 10 being 9d10+3 adding an addition +3 to the roll for each level thereafter (so L11 is 9d10 +6 and L20 is 9d10+33 as shown in Table 14 of AD&D 2nd Edition Players Handbook). They do the same with the Rogue and Priest HP/L. Considering that Warriors reach max level at L8, the fact that they dropped the die rolls after L9 when they weren't supposed to isn't surprising, but the number of dice rolls makes a huge difference.
Now I could easily fix this, but I wonder; "Was this human error or did they do this for game balancing?" and "What else isn't really AD&D 2nd Edition?" So these are the questions I would like answered. I guess its not something that really matters a whole lot, it just is what it is you know? But these answers could help me decide what to do for my expansion of the game to level 100. Please try to stay on the subject, and not get into the philosophical debate of why one should or should not expand the game to level 100 as this is just intended for personal use. If you really want to know why its because my favorite part of RPGs is character building and progression, now you don't have to ask. Thank you for reading, and have a good day.
I have never played D&D/AD&D but I have been playing Forgotten Realms video games since the first Baldur's Gate so I'm somewhat familiar with how the game works and I know its made using AD&D 2nd Edition (AD&D2) rules; and I've made myself familiar with how the programming works with the 2DAs (most of it's not complicated). But to expand the game to level 100 I needed to check the AD&D2 rule books (which my dad has) to make sure I correctly program the exp requirement for next levels, the saving throws / level, MXSPL, et cetera for every class. Now we're getting to the part that stopped me dead and prompted me to post this Discussion:
One of the first things I noticed was that, while AD&D was designed to go up in levels indefinitely, AD&D 2nd Edition was specifically designed to stop at the standardized level 20 for all classes. No big deal, its obvious enough to see the pattern and I can read the AD&D 1st Edition manual for details on continuing past the table they've included if I need to (except with say Bards, which didn't exist in 1st Edition). I mention it just to use as an indicator about Baldur's Gate including BG2 which goes past level 20 isn't strictly AD&D2.
But the part that really got me was the HPWAR (Hit Points for Warrior classes like Fighters), which in the game is 1d10 for levels (L) 1-9 and 3 for L10 and up, which is barely remotely resembling the hit die for the warrior exp table in AD&D/AD&D2 (which are the same in both) which show the number of d10 reflecting the level for 1-9, and level 10 being 9d10+3 adding an addition +3 to the roll for each level thereafter (so L11 is 9d10 +6 and L20 is 9d10+33 as shown in Table 14 of AD&D 2nd Edition Players Handbook). They do the same with the Rogue and Priest HP/L. Considering that Warriors reach max level at L8, the fact that they dropped the die rolls after L9 when they weren't supposed to isn't surprising, but the number of dice rolls makes a huge difference.
Now I could easily fix this, but I wonder; "Was this human error or did they do this for game balancing?" and "What else isn't really AD&D 2nd Edition?" So these are the questions I would like answered. I guess its not something that really matters a whole lot, it just is what it is you know? But these answers could help me decide what to do for my expansion of the game to level 100. Please try to stay on the subject, and not get into the philosophical debate of why one should or should not expand the game to level 100 as this is just intended for personal use. If you really want to know why its because my favorite part of RPGs is character building and progression, now you don't have to ask. Thank you for reading, and have a good day.
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Comments
Take a look at the new Neverwinter MMO, for example. It's ostensibly a D&D 4th Ed game, but the reality is that the mechanics are quite far removed from 4th Edition - and for good reason. Pen and paper rules often don't translate well into a computerized world where you have to limit the number of different actions available for the player to perform, and so you have to make compromises or sometimes entirely redesign systems to be more enjoyable in a digital format.
You never roll for HD after a certain level. That level 20 warrior in your example rolled 9D10 in total for levels 1-9, and got 33 combined for levels 10-20.
But I'm sure that @ZanathKariashi can explain to you in excrutiating detail, that at least HP progression works like AD&D.
@10thLich Perhaps the table in the book is just misleading? Hmm...
In the HPWAR it lists the levels 1-40 like:
Level Sides Rolls Modifier
1 10 1 0
et cetera
10 10 0 3
et cetera
20 10 0 3
et cetera
This shows for each level what sided die is rolled, how many times its rolled, and addition to the result. To me this is a logical table, maybe its just because I grew up in the computer generation...
In the AD&D2 Players Handbook Table 14 it shows:
Level Fighter XP Paladin/Ranger XP Hit Dice (d10)
1 0 0 1
et cetera
10 500,000 600,000 9+3
et cetera
20 3,000,000 3,600,000 9+33
et cetera
My automatic interpretation of this is the same, that its saying at L20 you roll 9d10 and add 33. It wouldn't have even occurred to me that its showing the total HP at L20 instead if I hadn't seen the HPWAR and read an explanation of how HP progression works, but your explanation does make sense. No matter how you look at it, if my initial understanding was correct a level 20 Fighter would have 342-1,638 HP (990=middle) which is quite high for a game like Baldur's Gate.
But yeah, as explained earlier that's how it works in BG. Hit dice until lvl9, and then a static number per level to the total, not to each hit die.
If a design choice, I would nearly be temped to request that the current hard-coded limit be soft-coded instead.
Right now my level 20 Fighter has over 150HP, without his armor that fire giant would kill me in one hit easily (with armor, its like 5 or 6). But table top isn't limited to preset enemies, a DM could easily create enemies which do 500 damage/hit (with armor on) or groups of enemies doing 100 or even 50 damage/hit to balance a game where characters have close to or over 1000HP.
Now, if the creators of BG went with my misunderstanding of HP die rolls/level they could have designed the enemies and weapon damage to reflect the higher HP for balancing, its not impossible. If it were the case perhaps they didn't want to, or the game was too imbalanced for the die rolls expressed in Table 14 so they made a change to it to balance the game; like PhillipDaigle said, video games are more limiting than table top so adjustments are made. I didn't know whether it had been adjusted for that reason or had not.
At the end of the game, I kind of wonder if you wouldn't be happier playing something like Diablo 3 (gods, did I just suggest that to someone??? Horrors). Wracking up HUGE hit points and damage and levels is more a sign of "Light" mash-em-up type games like that. Combat isn't supposed to be a bunch of huge flashy numbers like it sounds like you are expecting in DnD.
Although you may want to check out the Neverwinter MMO that was mentioned above. The early videos I saw suggested that later editions of DnD definitely went that route.
either way, welcome to the forum.
I did look into the Neverwinter MMO when PhillipDaigle mentioned it, but after 5 attempts (each resulting in errors) to sign up for the site so I could download the game I lost interest. I may look into it again in the future, but I have plenty of games to play already.
I think maybe you are confused about a few things though. I played Advanced when it came out. Druids and Monks were capped before 20th level. Anything above 20th level was Epic level and required a whole new book set to play. It was very rare to get that high. Most of the Deities in Deities and Demi-Gods were below 40th level.
I am not sure where you found rules taking the game up to 100, but I am pretty sure that they weren't Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. Druids were capped at 17th level and Monks were capped somewhere thereabouts.
This is in no way to say that your method or intent towards playing style is in any way invalid, just that I don't think you will find that type of experience (higher than 40th level) something that is even accomodatable in BG games. I was merely trying to be helpful in suggesting other games that DO have the type of things you seem to be asking about. But by all means play and enjoy here.
The discussion isn't about D&D or AD&D or versions of. The discussion is about what system Baldur's Gate uses, for the purpose of expanding the maximum level in the game to 100 while continuing the pattern of level progression so that it is in line with what they intended for BG; and not just my own opinion of what the classes should get for the higher levels, so that it feels more like a developer expansion.
PhillipDaigle pointed out that BG is "AD&D 2nd Edition flavored" so its not exactly strict to that system, which is clear by AD&D2 limiting the level to 20 for all classes, where as one can achieve level 40 in the expansion of BG2. Therefore I will have to look at what BG had for 1-40, discern the pattern, and continue the pattern without expanding class limitations and such because there is no book explaining how to continue the level progression for the exact system Baldur's Gate is using.
You want to discuss this? Fine.
I only glanced through the AD&D 1st Edition book because my dad (who actually did play D&D) said that he remembered there being no level cap when I mentioned BG being capped and AD&D2 being limited to 20, and Wikipedia states that a difference between AD&D1 and AD&D2 is that AD&D2 made a standard level cap of 20 for all classes. In the AD&D1 book they have tables for different classes, ending at different levels, instead of having 3 tables for the 3 categories of classes all ending at L20 like AD&D2. But, the book does have instructions right beneath for higher levels. The table for Fighters ends at 11, and I quote from the manual:
"250,000 experience points per level for each additional level beyond the
11th.
Fighters gain 3 h.p. per level after the 9th."
Which is the case for 12-20 in AD&D2 and is how BG is programmed for fighter level progression up to L40. I did not see anywhere in the manual where it mentions a level cap
As I said in my initial post the Fire Giant battle gives me over 300,000 exp so I gain a level per battle. I don't typically level grind, I was only L6 or so when I beat Sarevok then loaded from before entering and completed all the side quests I missed and I was still only L8 when I finished and moved to the Black Pits (BP). I don't play the game to make a powerful guy I play it to immerse myself in the world, but there must be a reward of some kind for my efforts or I have no desire to do whatever it is I'm doing, with an RPG the reward is experience points to grow my character to face more difficult opponents, soon as I reach the exp cap all my actions are meaningless.
I gained millions of exp in BP getting me several levels. I would have moved him back after finishing BP but I wanted to buy some of those great items and mage scrolls before moving my character back to the main game. But I only gain 7000GP/battle so I have to battle him a lot more, and if I battled him 20 more times I'd reach the limit of 40 and that doesn't take very long. I chose L100 because it was a nice round seemingly unattainable number and the reason it remains fun fighting the giants over and over is because I can continue to develop my character.
If I never removed the level cap, I'd have lost interest in the game as soon as I reached it and moved onto another game. BG is a fantastic, well balanced game that is perfectly good exactly as its designed up until I beat Sarevok and win the game. But what if I want to keep playing?
I hate replaying games, because like I said I enjoy immersing myself in the game, starting a game over is about as fun as aging down to a 6 year old and starting first grade over again. I get to add 1+1 every day for a year again, or whatever stupid stuff I had to do in 1st grade. There's nothing new, that's the opposite of exciting.
So I go and do the side quests, not because they matter (clearly, the game is won) but because its just something to do before I set the game down and move on to something else. But then I hit the XP cap, and not only do the side quests not matter, but now playing the game at all no longer matters to me because there is nothing to gain from it. Its not like I can settle down with a comely lass and grow old having kids that I can then play with till they reach the exp cap.
(I soo wish I could though, my dad told me he knew people who did that with the table top. I can do that in The Sims, I love that game. Its not really the same kind of RPG, but it is the ultimate never ending game. They do have a Sims Medieval, but its not as fun as games like BG. If only...
I know, I know; You hate The Sims, "I can't believe he even mentioned The Sims!" I get that a lot. I'm probably the only person on Earth who is a big fan of both Baldur's Gate and The Sims. Which is TOTALLY WEIRD because most D&D gamers and fans of BG if you ask them if they'd like to be able to do things like in the table top, for example buy or build a castle, rent an army, start your own fighting academy, get married and reproduce and play as your children, they will say "Yeah, that would be great! But I hate The Sims." when that is basically the description of The Sims. Because... Idk, Sims is Skill Based instead of Level Based? They have character progression, quests, everything but statistics (but they do have Traits which are equivalent) and experience levels (but they do age), and its not based in FR (but it is a fantasy world with supernatural creatures). Though they do have Dire Chinchillas in Sims Medieval which is awesome. I don't see any Dire Chinchillas in BG... haha. See, I can go off on a tangent about other games too...)
But what if I still want to keep playing? So I remove the exp cap so I can keep going, but I hit the same problem if I reach level 40. Do you get the idea now?
I do plan to put down the game once I've bought all the items I want, moved my char back to the main game, and finish it by killing Sarevok again. I doubt I will reach L100, that's why I chose it. But once I'm in BG2 I have an entire other game to get exp in, and they could have something like BP for BG2, where the final battle gives a ridiculous amount of exp for BG2 standards (which I am guessing is over a million) and that I might have a similar situation, and have to expand beyond L100, but I will cross that bridge when/if I come to it.
I don't care about getting massive HP or godlike power or any of that crap, I just want what I do to have a reward/progression, if there's no reward (no exp, no leveling) I get no gratification from RPGs typically. Which is why I believe Diablo 2 was a far better game than Diablo 3, as it was near impossible to reach the max level of 99 but you still got a little closer with ever fight. Where as I got bored of D3 within the first month it was out, because the max level is easily attainable, the story is over in like a day, and quality items are very difficult to obtain. So after max lvl the only thing there is to do is grind for gold to buy better items in the auction to grind for gold more easily to... et cetera, which is as boring as watching paint dry to me.
I like any RPG that is long, like Fallout 3 is one of my favorite games because it never ends, I still haven't beaten that game. Skyrim (The Elder Scrolls V) is also one of my top favorite games, and I still haven't beaten it. I've been playing FO3 for many years now, and Skyrim for about half that which is still over a year. I beat BGEEs main plot in a month or so. I don't care if the max level is 10 or 5,000 or if there is no character level at all (Skyrim, which is my new preferred progression system for RPG) as long as it doesn't end (it ends with the main story or the exp cap whichever is later) before I'm satisfied.
@TJ_Hooker I do not have the rolls displaying in my game, I consider a moment of accumulative damage a "hit" even if they're doing 2 or more rolls/attacks in that moment of accumulative damage. The system of rounds and turns doesn't really translate to real life well, in that it plays like real time but the math behind the scene is a series of quick rounds and turns et cetera. But if I recorded myself fighting the fire giant with my armor, and without, you would see I would die immediately (HP draining without hesitation until death) without, where as with armor my health would jump down 5 or 6 times (with time between each) before I died. That is what I'm referring to when I say "hit", not the attack roll or whatever. I apologize for the confusion.
I still hold that the weaker or less enjoyable parts of the Baldur's Gate series are things that are pulled from the D&D rules. Meanwhile things such as dungeons, characters and storylines are just excellent.
That's not to say that D&D is bad, but not all of its mechanics are necessarily suited for a game such as this. (*cough*6-second rule*cough*)
Anyway, its uniqueness is why I need a discussion about expanding it to L100. I want my expansion to be in line with Baldur's Gate, not D&D or AD&D2, or my own interpretation of how it should be, because I want it to feel natural and believable when I play it. Its just for my personal use (since I doubt anyway would want a copy) but I still want to enjoy it the way I enjoy BG, with the same joy and limitations which force me to think.
I've already gotten replies that have been useful towards that end, and I appreciate them.
(I don't know what the 6-second rule is... sorry ^^;)
For fighters, be wary of increasing their attacks per round too much, or the Whirlwind Attack high-level ability quickly becomes obsolete.
There's no hard-and-fast rules for how to extend the progression; you can kind of get a sense for what abilities make sense for which classes, but for spellcasters it's more complicated--you have to not only extend the class's level progression table, but you also have to add additional level-based effects to all of the spells if you want them to grow more powerful as well. (Of course you're playing a fighter, but if you're considering doing the same thing with other classes, that's something to consider as well.)
For a fighter, there's not a whole lot worth getting. You could try extending the proficiency tables, but--again--you're in uncharted territory as far as what the rules of the game say.
If this is a project you're serious about, you might post an inquiry thread in the Modding subforum; there's a lot of people who have done similar things and can give you some insights as to what works best, how to do it, and whether or not it's a good idea at all.
But I think it's been established by now that the Infinity Engine games are not really 100% accurate to the pen and paper materials for the sake of making everything work better for the game...
Baldur's Gate you could say uses a system based on AD&D rather than actually using AD&D...
So if you wanted to increase the cap to 100, I suppose a combination of what AD&D says and looking whats in place up to level 40?
That's one thing about D&D, there's the core rulebooks and then there's the supplemental books...
Oh, and Bards do exist in 1st Edition AD&D. Read Appendix II at the back of the Player's Handbook. Actually, they were introduced in a supplement for "OD&D" - the *real* first edition of the game. :-)
If you are interested in continuing to play BG style, I’d suggest that you play through BG1 - > BG2 -> TOB with a full party (skip Black pits) and see if that gives you the experience you are looking for. You can also add in Mods like SCS and Unfinished business that will both add content and increase the difficulty level to the point where you won’t have such an easy time (at normal levels). You can also play through Icewind Dale 1 & 2 (although these aren’t continuations where you keep the same character as in the BG series) if you enjoy the top down tactical type of party game play.
God Tier: ToEE
High Tier: IWD2
Mid Tier: NWN2, BG, IWD
Low Tier: NWN, BG2, PS:T
WTF Tier: Neverwinter, DDO
The manual says the lowest THAC0 can go is 0, and the lowest it goes in BG is 0 (not including equipment and skills which can lower it further) so when I extend that I won't lower it below 0.
I don't think BG even has the abilities, I'll have to... Oh wait, someones already gathered all the High Level Abilities. I'll get those from CoM_Solaufein's mod and incorporate them. Anyway, thanks for the note about attack rate and Whirlwind. The only file I've found related to attacks/round is WSPATCK.2DA, which I think is for proficiency bonus of attacks/round at levels 1-40, and it doesn't seem to differ past L13 so I will probably keep it steady. (Same with the TOB WSPATCK.2DA, it doesn't differ past L13) I'm hoping that additional attacks/round/level work like proficiencies so I don't have to worry about it.
Yes, spell progression is the hardest part I think, but I'm able to discern patterns well enough I think. But BG kind of messes with the pattern... for example, there is a clear pattern for the bard spell progression 1-20 shown in the AD&D2 player handbook, but BG decides to break that pattern by simply adding a memorization slot to 1st level at L21, 2nd at L22, and 3rd at L23 and then L23-40 have no changes. But then in TOB they add another one to 4th at L25, to 5th at L28, and to 6th at L38. So, would I continue the pattern from AD&D2, or the pattern from BG (which is just ditto of L23 forever), or the pattern from TOB which... kind of has no pattern, seems random to me... I'd probably just ditto L39 forever (which is 5 in spell categories 1-6). Yeah I think I'll go with that last one, feels more like the developers of BG intended it. Now I just have to do that with all other classes which use magic.... And that's not even half of what you were talking about with spell casters, I'd have to do more research about the other things. I hope its automatic so I don't have to mess with adding quality of spells/level and such... I could always just be like "What they already list as the strongest is the strongest possible" so leave it the same for all levels I add, hah. Idk, that requires a lot more research and pondering.
I don't need to touch the proficiencies table because it has a list of classes in the first column then its got a column for first level and a column for rate, so it'll apply no matter how many levels I add. It's an exact rate (every 3rd level for a fighter for example) so its able to be simple like that.
Its just a lot of pondering and research, if I hit a bump I'll post a discussion in modding like you suggest. And I will determine if its a good idea or not by reaching level 40, which will happen after 15 more 1 minute fights. That's 105,000 gold, and I'm not sure whether that is enough gold or not to buy the things I want before I kill Baeloth then flip back to the main game and kill Sarevok then put the game away till BG2EE comes out. If I don't fight this guy more than 15 times more, then it wont be necessary, or at least not till BG2EE. If I reach L40 and need to keep battling which will result in levels above 40 it will be clear whether I need to do it or not. Perhaps I will only expand the Fighter, as the other classes wont be necessary for me, until/if I play a different class and get to L40 with them then I might do it with that class.
@Kaltzor Please read Discussion before posting...
Quoting from my initial post:
"
The second to last fight, with the fire giant, gives over 300,000 exp and as a Fighter thats 1 level per battle, so I decided to increase the maximum level to 100.
"
You can redo fights in the Black Pits as many times as you want. I keep having to repeat this, and not wanting to repeat this is exactly why I said:
"
Please try to stay on the subject, and not get into the philosophical debate of why one should or should not expand the game to level 100
"
The other things you said were already discussed.
@AstroBryGuy Thank you for the information! Being unfamiliar with D&D/AD&D I didn't know there were such things... I guess thats why my dad has a whole bookcase for D&D stuff, I thought the other stuff was all adventures and stuff.
Thanks for the info about the Bards too, I did find them in the Appendix.
@The_Spyder Progressing past the levels in the table is not complicated Spyder, AD&D1 says it requires 250,000 exp for a Fighter to reach the next level for every level after 11, and add 3 HP when you get there. I quoted this from the manual (quote in previous post). I'll give an example: To get to level 101 from level 100, its 250,000 exp more and you gain 3 hp when getting there. If you can quote the manual where it says there is a limit instead of just saying I'm wrong then be my guest. Repeatedly saying I'm wrong is not a discussion, and I've looked and still can't find anywhere in the manual where it says there is a level cap.
I'll repeat myself again, I am NOT looking for XP. I just wanted to continue playing the game a little longer and I don't want no reward for my playing. I've already played through BGEE and the Black Pits and I am getting the XP, not looking for XP, the game is giving it to me as a reward for my winning the battle. If I hadn't removed the XP cap then I'd be getting the XP but my characters XP would be frozen at 161,000, the same would be true if I downloaded a new adventure. I would look into those adventures but BG2EE is coming so soon that I think I am about satisfied with BGEE now, I just want to get the cool items and scrolls sold in The Black Pits before I wrap it up which requires fighting that giant more for the 7000GP/fight to buy them, he just happens to give a ton of exp too (6 levels every 5 fights), and I don't like hitting level limitations in level based games.
The original BG, BG2, TOB, IWD, and even NWN does not work on my computer, I use Mac and every other release of the OS makes the software incompatible... (I am exaggerating... probably...) I haven't been able to play BG since version 10.4 which was... idk 2007? Because 10.5 is when they dropped Classic, the Mac v9 OS emulator. That's why the developers of BGEE are the coolest people ever, because now Mac users can play it again. I did play those games when they were new though. And I am looking forward to new games in development of the same style, like Project Eternity (2014).
@ajwz Uh, thanks. I'll look into that when I get a minute. Gotta run now...
Baldur's Gate does a great job at applying the 2nd Ed rules. Many of the deviations from the core book are actually presented in optional supplements, or are simple balancing issues... And in the cases where things don't line up, keep in mind Rule 0 - the DM is always right
And then when you finally do get to BG2:EE, you are not going to enjoy that either since everything is going to be ridiculously easy with your 50th level character. If you can't play BG2 on your Mac? That's a shame. I just don't think you are going to get the lift you are expecting by bumping the level cap to 100 and replaying BG:EE. In fact, from what you have posted thus far, I can all but guarantee it.
a quick search revealed something similar happened to 2e
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_level
That being said, NWN, BG etc are all fairly good implementations.
Neverwinter MMO on the other hand has absolutely nothing at all to do with D&D in terms of mechanics. Don't get me wrong, I actually LIKE the mechanics it uses and find them to be superior to D&Ds, but they are just completely and utterly unrelated. The only thing D&D about it is the setting (city, world, class names, gods, races, etc).
Sadly, despite some very solid gameplay mechanics it is one of the worst cases of pay2win I have ever seen.
NWN1/2 are also both fun games to play.
Everything I have seen or read about the Neverwinter MMO just makes me shudder. And to think that this is the future of the Neverwinter Nights Franchise just makes me sick to my stomach. Thus ends the reign of DnD games in my 'must have' list.
The xp/class progression table stops at 30. Levels 31-40 are Divine levels (+1 all saves, +10 hp each, no other benefits) and can only be granted as a reward from a Divine Sponsor (Deity of at least lesser god status) for tasks of extreme important to the deity, never as a result of xp. Upon reach 40, the character is granted Demi-god status and becomes an NPC.
Some HLA are purchased via NCP, others unlock automatically at a given level.
Taking warriors as an example.
At 10+ warriors can spend 1 NCP to unlock the Whirlwind Attack combat action, allowing them to replace their normal attacks in any round with a single attack that attempts to strike all targets within range for an amount of damage based on warrior level. Requires no skill check.
At 15+ they could purchase death blow combat action for 2 NCP, allowing them to substitute their normal APR for a single powerful strike that requires a save vs death or instantly die. (Enemies with more HD then the warrior are immune as are enemies immune to instant death). Requires no skill check.
At 15+ they could also buy ranks of Hardiness for 2 NCP. Which allows them to attempt a hardiness check to delay making saving throws from spells (between 5 and 20 rounds, based on warrior level). If the delay lasts longer then the spell's duration, it's negated. Spells that happen instantaneously or have longer duration require a save once the delay period runs out. If the save is failed they can attempt another hardiness check, that if successful puts them into a deep coma as their body fights off the effects of the spell (exact time requirements depending on the severity of the effect, with minor effects such as blindness (which is permanent until dispelled in PnP) requiring only up to a day (or less if the duration is shorter then a day), where as an instant death effects or similar nasty stuff can take up to a week to recover from. Very power spells, 8th+ can take up to a month to recover from. And as a last use, allows the warrior to make a hardiness check that allows them to continue fighting until they reach -20 hp or delay duration runs out. Warriors that are below -10 when the spell expires die instantly. Requires a skill check per use. Can purchase multiple ranks to improve check results.
At 21+ all warriors automatically gain the ability to ignore to-hit requirements with all physical attacks, even unarmed (only applies to hit-requirements, not hit/damage). The exact magnitude based on level. (21 = +1, 24 = +2, 27 = +3, 30 = +4). Only applies to numerical hit-requirements, attacks that require a specific material still do so. Gained automatically, requires no skill check.
As your your question on progression. Thac0 and saves are never supposed to increase after 20. (BG currently allows progression up to 22, class depending). After that, all you gain is more static hp bonus, more weapon profs, more NCP points.
And some casters (excluding ranager/paladin) gained increased caster level (BG caps it at 20 and does not limit paladin/rangers to 9 at 18..they cast equal to their class level), and some casters (excluding Ranger/paladin and druids) gain further spell progression (BG caps rangers/paladin/bards instead).