Very well. I submit to your good judgment, dear moderator. Feel free to move this over to feature requests. It has done all it can in this section anyway. Thy will be done.
Secondly, I don't mind others disagreeing with me. In fact, I welcome intelligent thought and conversation. What I don't like is smart-assery that doesn't contribute to the thread (see first response to my OP).
Hate to break it to you but with ANY thread you make you are going to have your fair share of smart-ass responses to sift through to find the constructive replies. Just be glad they bump your thread to the top of the section, I guess. Gotta just ignore 'em. Maybe specifically ask mlnevese to delete what you deem to be spam, he seems like a more militant moderator whereas a lot of the rest are more sheepish, and thus will probably excuse mere snarkiness.
@Joey Please read the whole thread instead of re-reporting an incident that has been dealt with. It is not exactly a pleasant experience to go through the first time around, much less repeatable offenses. If you feel as if that comment of mine was out of place, perhaps you should look at what it was a response to. It was a response to a smart-ass comment which attempted to undermine my opinion and thread. There was no need for such a comment, and I will not have my integrity attacked by anyone. But perhaps I'll take your little method from here on it. Instead of telling someone to move along, I'll simply report them.
Hopefully your feelings weren't hurt too badly by my reaction and you will contribute to my threads in the future, as all constructive opinions are always more than welcome. This is a discussion board, after all, and we are here to discuss, not argue, insult, or otherwise.
@Edwin_Odesseiron, maybe I'm insane, but it was a response to a one-line post that succinctly summed up the author's opinion on exactly the issue you wanted to discuss. If you're taking some else's statement about what they're looking for in a class as an attack on yourself and your opinion, you're not coming across as terribly open to discussion. Meanwhile, you responded with "Nice try, move along. I only want productive comments, not time-wasting drivel." which, to my mind, is precisely the sort of devaluing of opinions that we both know we need to avoid. I totally agree that you shouldn't have been reported twice for one offense, but I really hope you can see why you were reported in the first place, because it was warranted.
I've said all I need to regarding this matter. Talking about it further, I'd only be repeating myself, which I have no desire to do. People can make their own opinions concerning this.
.., maybe I'm insane, but it was a response to a one-line post that succinctly summed up the author's opinion on exactly the issue you wanted to discuss.
Seemed snarky as hell to me. I'm not defending the OP here, I wouldn't have even graced that poster with a response. But defending the comment which was blatantly attempting to undermine the thread ... lol wow
ON THE ACTUAL TOPIC AT HAND ...
I agree specialist mages need to feel more specialized. I'm not big on the whole extra spell deal, seems kind of redundant; but things like saving throw bonuses/penalties, I really dig those ideas.
@Joey if you have something further to say to me, please PM me. You obviously have some kind of issue. This thread is for talking about specialist mages, not about whatever problem you seem to have with me.
Quartz seems to be the only objective person on this thread. No small feat. Kudos, Quartz, kudos.
I've been thinking that specialist mages should gain a small advantage in their chosen school; such as faster casting time or Greater chance for maximum effects. It might skew the game balance though.
basically what @Jarrakul said, I think the original idea was kind of the way that 3.5 does it where each extra spell per day was supposed to be from your specialized school, works for bg1, but bg2 it doesn't for divination as @Jarrakul also said
This breaks the worst for enchanters and diviners (no enchantment spells above 5th(!), no divination spells above 6th), but there's also no alteration spells at 8th, and no illusion spells at 9th.
Okay, here are some Pen and Paper spells that fill in those gaps:
Alteration, 8th Level: Incendiary Cloud, Polymorph Any Object, Iron Body, Mass Polymorph, Sink (like Imprisonment, but it takes longer to cast and you are only buried up to your height in the ground, so a 6' tall creature has its head 6' underground and the body below, and a 50' tall creature has the top of its head 50' underground.), Otiluke's Telekinetic Sphere. Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting, Afterclap (reiterates some of the damage inflicted by the last spell cast), Blackstaff (from which Khelben Arunsun got his name), Change Form, Presper's Double Wizardry, Temporal Freedom (Tired of being affected by Time Stop? This spell says, "It shall not affect me!"), Web of Lightning (Creates 6 Lightning Bolts with the area effect radius of a Fireball spell).
6+ Divination Spells: True Seeing (6th), Anticipation (Allows the Diviner to know what every enemy in the area is planning at the beginning of the round so he or she can plan accordingly. It also reveals the presence but not location of Invisible beings by communicating their intentions to the caster- as you can imagine, hard, if not impossible to implement in the game due to AI). There aren't that many high-level divination spells and many of those that exist Pen and Paper are literally worthless to cast in-game or impossible to implement because of AI.
5+ Enchantment Spells: (5) Chaos, Domination, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Tenser's Primal Fury, Daltim's Fiery Protector, Mordarkainen's Involuntary Wizardry (Makes opponent cast a random spell on himself. This can be good for the target (Haste, Invisibility) or bad (Fireball, Ice Storm, similar damaging spells).) (6) Eyebite (gives the caster a gaze attack lasting 1 round for every 3 levels of the caster. Caster can cause one of 4 effects: Chsrm, Fear, Sicken or Sleep. This always goes first in every round.), Geas (What Irenicus did to Yoshimo), Mass Suggestion, Seizure (7) Steal Enchantment, True Name, Control Lycanthrope, Hold Golem, Major Domination, Stealspell (Wrest a Spell from the mind of another caster and cast it within 1 day). (8) Antipathy/Sympathy (Attract or repel creatures from an object), Binding, Demand (Both affect summoned creatures from other planes, allowing control), Mass Charm, Otto's Irresistible Dance. (9) Dismind (turns mage into a zombie mentally), Blade in the Soul (Compels the target to do an action or die), Mass Domination, Virus Charm (Every creature touched/encountered by the charmed on must save or be charmed as well).
9th Level Illusion Spells- Weird (foes fight an imaginary combat with their most feared enemy. If they lose, they really die), Mass Blindness.
As for Priest spells over level 7, Priest spells only went up to 7th Level in 2e. They did introduce "Quest Spells" later on, which are higher level spells granted by the Priest's Deity for a specific reason. You could only have one, and you lost a 7th level spell slot to carry it. But there are plenty of High-Level Cleric spells as well as Deity-Specific spells that can be added to the game. (My favorite is Moonblade, granted by Selune, goddess of the moon, which does immense damage against the undead.)
They didn't lose a slot, they lost access to the whole spell level. And it didn't have to be 7th level, It merely required them to sacrifice all their highest level slots for that level each time they memorized it. And had to be at least lvl 9 or being given a quest spell would kill them. Takes 24 hours of prayer to memorize the spell (48 if they have less then 17 wisdom or are under lvl 12).
Take a lvl 20 cleric. They could memorize one instance of a quest spell by giving up all their 7th level slots. They could memorize another use by giving up all their 6th slots. And for a 3rd memorization it took all their 5th level slots (4th and under are too weak to sustain a quest spell). However casting a quest spell from less then 7th is dangerous.
Casting from 7th immediately fatigues the caster (requires 48 hours of bed rest to fully recover), but is otherwise unharmed.
Casting from 6th has to save at -4 or age 10 years and is fatigued, while casting from 5th ages 10 years and has to save at -4 or die (fatigued if they survive).
Clerics above 20 however gain 8th level quest slots that can hold 1 spell per slot (capping at 4 total slots at lvl 30), and unlike lesser clerics which are only given Quest spells in situations of dire important to the Deity, a 21+ cleric can request quest spells for their quest slots like any other spell (but dieties can only grant quest spells that fall within their portfolios).
I would like to see the traditional specialist mages get some kind of buff. Currently, the wild mage outclasses them mechanically. I usually go with a wild mage in the party (now it's usually Neera) because I get the bonus spell slot that the specialists get but I can still cast from any school. Occasionally I wild surge but that only becomes bad if something permanent happens or someone dies (petrified, gates usually kill someone, someone is polymorphed into a squirrel). When that happens I can just reload but nothing really happens that makes me need to change my tactics (which most kits require as it is a part of their disadvantages). In BG2 the Reckless Dweomer starts to pay off when I literally get access to all the spells I'll ever need and as a high level wild mage can cast them with less of a chance of it going wrong (and the gate thing is less of a problem now).
Meanwhile as a specialist mage I get a bonus spell slot and I'm forbidden from ever using a selected school of magic. Foresight could limit how bad that is (especially if I have another mage in the party) but the wild mage still can cast from any school.
Comments
Hopefully your feelings weren't hurt too badly by my reaction and you will contribute to my threads in the future, as all constructive opinions are always more than welcome. This is a discussion board, after all, and we are here to discuss, not argue, insult, or otherwise.
ON THE ACTUAL TOPIC AT HAND ...
I agree specialist mages need to feel more specialized. I'm not big on the whole extra spell deal, seems kind of redundant; but things like saving throw bonuses/penalties, I really dig those ideas.
Abjuration - (as written)
+1 save bonus vs Abjuration spells, bonus -1 save penalty for abjuration spells cast on a target.
17: Immunity to all forms of Hold. +1 all saves.
20: Base AC becomes 8
Alteration - (17, 20 bonus changed due to lack of NCP system)
+1 save vs alteration spells, bonus -1 save penalty for alteration spells cast on a target.
17: Another bonus -1 save penalty for alteration spells.
20: Another -1 save penalty for Alteration spells. Another +1 bonus saves vs Alteration spells.
Conjuror - (minor tweak to 17/20 effect to fit with BG)
+1 save vs conjuration spells, bonus -1 save penalty for conjuration spells cast on a target.
17: x3 per day, Banish all summoned creatures within a 15ft radius of target area. No Save.
20: x3 per day, Banish target Gated creature, no save.
Enchanter - (as written)
+1 save vs enchantment spells, bonus -1 save penalty for enchantment spells cast on a target.
17: Immunity to Charm/Domination spells.
20: Once per day special Free-Action spell. Casts instantly and affects the whole party. Lasts 1 hour.
Divination - (minor tweaks to 17/20 to fit with BG)
+1 save vs divination spells, bonus -1 save penalty for divination spells cast on a target.
17: Permanent Non-detection
19: Can cast Find Trap x3 per day.
20:Can cast a special double length True-sight once per day. By-passes Spell Immunity: Divination
Illusionist - (minor changes to lvl 20 ability to better fit BG)
+1 save vs illusion spells, bonus -1 save penalty for Illusion spells cast on a target.
17: Another +1 save vs Illusion spells, bonus -1 save penalty for Illusion spells cast on a target.
20: x3 Per day, Detect Illusion (Functions identical to the Thief Detect Illusion with 100 skill, lasts 5 rounds).
Invoker - (as written)
+1 save bonus vs Evocation spells, bonus -1 save penalty for Evocation spells cast on a target.
17: +1 save bonus vs evocation spells (total of +2)
20: +1 save bonus vs Evocation spells (total of +3)
Necromancer - (changed lvl 20 bonus to better fit BG)
+1 save vs Necromancy spells, bonus -1 save penalty for Necromancy spells cast on a target.
17: +1 saves vs necromancy spells (total of +2). +4 save bonus vs natural abilities of undead creatures.
20: Can cast Animate Dead once per day.
@ZanathKariashi Interesting, nice!
Quartz seems to be the only objective person on this thread. No small feat. Kudos, Quartz, kudos.
Alteration, 8th Level: Incendiary Cloud, Polymorph Any Object, Iron Body, Mass Polymorph, Sink (like Imprisonment, but it takes longer to cast and you are only buried up to your height in the ground, so a 6' tall creature has its head 6' underground and the body below, and a 50' tall creature has the top of its head 50' underground.), Otiluke's Telekinetic Sphere. Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting, Afterclap (reiterates some of the damage inflicted by the last spell cast), Blackstaff (from which Khelben Arunsun got his name), Change Form, Presper's Double Wizardry, Temporal Freedom (Tired of being affected by Time Stop? This spell says, "It shall not affect me!"), Web of Lightning (Creates 6 Lightning Bolts with the area effect radius of a Fireball spell).
6+ Divination Spells: True Seeing (6th), Anticipation (Allows the Diviner to know what every enemy in the area is planning at the beginning of the round so he or she can plan accordingly. It also reveals the presence but not location of Invisible beings by communicating their intentions to the caster- as you can imagine, hard, if not impossible to implement in the game due to AI). There aren't that many high-level divination spells and many of those that exist Pen and Paper are literally worthless to cast in-game or impossible to implement because of AI.
5+ Enchantment Spells: (5) Chaos, Domination, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Tenser's Primal Fury, Daltim's Fiery Protector, Mordarkainen's Involuntary Wizardry (Makes opponent cast a random spell on himself. This can be good for the target (Haste, Invisibility) or bad (Fireball, Ice Storm, similar damaging spells).) (6) Eyebite (gives the caster a gaze attack lasting 1 round for every 3 levels of the caster. Caster can cause one of 4 effects: Chsrm, Fear, Sicken or Sleep. This always goes first in every round.), Geas (What Irenicus did to Yoshimo), Mass Suggestion, Seizure (7) Steal Enchantment, True Name, Control Lycanthrope, Hold Golem, Major Domination, Stealspell (Wrest a Spell from the mind of another caster and cast it within 1 day). (8) Antipathy/Sympathy (Attract or repel creatures from an object), Binding, Demand (Both affect summoned creatures from other planes, allowing control), Mass Charm, Otto's Irresistible Dance. (9) Dismind (turns mage into a zombie mentally), Blade in the Soul (Compels the target to do an action or die), Mass Domination, Virus Charm (Every creature touched/encountered by the charmed on must save or be charmed as well).
9th Level Illusion Spells- Weird (foes fight an imaginary combat with their most feared enemy. If they lose, they really die), Mass Blindness.
As for Priest spells over level 7, Priest spells only went up to 7th Level in 2e. They did introduce "Quest Spells" later on, which are higher level spells granted by the Priest's Deity for a specific reason. You could only have one, and you lost a 7th level spell slot to carry it. But there are plenty of High-Level Cleric spells as well as Deity-Specific spells that can be added to the game. (My favorite is Moonblade, granted by Selune, goddess of the moon, which does immense damage against the undead.)
Take a lvl 20 cleric. They could memorize one instance of a quest spell by giving up all their 7th level slots. They could memorize another use by giving up all their 6th slots. And for a 3rd memorization it took all their 5th level slots (4th and under are too weak to sustain a quest spell). However casting a quest spell from less then 7th is dangerous.
Casting from 7th immediately fatigues the caster (requires 48 hours of bed rest to fully recover), but is otherwise unharmed.
Casting from 6th has to save at -4 or age 10 years and is fatigued, while casting from 5th ages 10 years and has to save at -4 or die (fatigued if they survive).
Clerics above 20 however gain 8th level quest slots that can hold 1 spell per slot (capping at 4 total slots at lvl 30), and unlike lesser clerics which are only given Quest spells in situations of dire important to the Deity, a 21+ cleric can request quest spells for their quest slots like any other spell (but dieties can only grant quest spells that fall within their portfolios).
Meanwhile as a specialist mage I get a bonus spell slot and I'm forbidden from ever using a selected school of magic. Foresight could limit how bad that is (especially if I have another mage in the party) but the wild mage still can cast from any school.