I found a pretty huge lore discrepancy. Irenicus is last seen being tortured by demons in hell, and some characters say things (IIRC imoen) like "I hope you burn in hell" or some such. Even though the D&D cosmology doesn't work that way.
Well, mortals that have bargained with demons or devils will often be condemned to the Abyss or the Nine Hells because of it.
I found a pretty huge lore discrepancy. Irenicus is last seen being tortured by demons in hell, and some characters say things (IIRC imoen) like "I hope you burn in hell" or some such. Even though the D&D cosmology doesn't work that way.
Well, mortals that have bargained with demons or devils will often be condemned to the Abyss or the Nine Hells because of it.
If they were faithless they are condemned to the Wall of the Faithless.
If they pleased a deity, than 10 days after their death their soul is collected by their deity (aka, heaven, hell, abyss, etc). Most evil gods are batdung insane and their afterlife is terrible... unless they were REALLY impressed by you in your life. (try not to fail them)
If they intentionally betrayed their deity of choice after making a lifelong commitment (like irenicus), then http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/The_False They can at most expect to be tortured on the fuge plane, not the hells.
During the 10 day waiting period, souls may bargain with devils for the right to be taken off to be transformed into a devil. Having bargained with devils during your lifetime is the safest and quickest bet towards that path.
I find the most plausible is that irenicus is being transformed into a devil. Although, the process of being transformed into a devil DOES involve being tortured a lot by other devils. But it requires that first they go to the fuge plane to make a deal with you
Mortals can summon devils and demons to make deals with them, no Fugue plane necessary. And, considering the demons he had with him at Suldanessalar, I'm guessing he did.
...I'm pretty sure Irenicus doesn't have a soul, so I'm not sure the usual procedures apply. Don't you spend the final battle against him in the Abyss anyway?
Mortals can summon devils and demons to make deals with them, no Fugue plane necessary. And, considering the demons he had with him at Suldanessalar, I'm guessing he did.
Force and dominance is a bit different than make a deal, Irenicus probally dominated those demons to do his bidding.
Irenicus took the protagonist's soul, thus linking them. So when Irenicus died, he pulled the protagonist into the abyssal plane of the protagonist's father. This is due to the bhaal essence wanting to return to the source, the throne of bhaal. Why it didn't get all the way there isn't really known(most likely the throne itself wasn't developed plot-wise when SoA was completed). When Irenicus was killed in hell, he lost his grip on his stolen soul, and lost all his power, becoming nothing more than a lost soulless spirit. Thus, he's stuck in the same abyssal plane, while you return to your (still living) bodies and move on.
And because he is soulless, he belongs nowhere, and nobody in the Divine Bureaucracy will claim him, which makes the demons able to play with him forever.
And because he is soulless, he belongs nowhere, and nobody in the Divine Bureaucracy will claim him, which makes the demons able to play with him forever.
Don't know about that, being souless means he has an void inside him, something that the infernal energies of the abyss can fill with time, maybe in one or two centuries (or more) he will become something even more dangeours than Jon Irenicus.
@Taltamir The Seven Heavens and Nine Hells are specific places in the outer planes. Most common people don't know that each of those places has specific names for each level (Lunia is the first of the Seven Heavens, Phlegethos is one of the Nine Hells.) There are 666 Planes in the Abyss, Arcadia has three sub-planes, the Twin Paradises two, Elysium four, Gladsheim 3 (Corresponding to Asgard, Muspelheim and Nidavellir).
There are also the Inner Planes, which correspond to the Elemental Planes, Paraelemental Planes and QuasiElemental Planes, the Positive and Negative Energy Planes, and the Ethereal Plane tying them all together. Regular Elemental Planes are: Air, Fire, Earth and Water. ParaElemental Planes exist where two other planes meet: Magma for Earth and Fire, Ooze for Earth and Water, Steam for Fire and Water, Smoke for Fire and Air, Ice for Water and Air (yes, many mephitis come from these planes). QuasiElemental Planes are where the Primary planes interact with Positive and Negative Energy Planes. (Radiance for Fire and Positive Energy, Minerals for Earth and Positive Energy, Salt, Dust, Ash and Vacuum for Negative plus Water, Earth, Fire and Air respectively). The Inner planes are tied together and can be reached via the Ethereal Plane, while the outer planes can only be reached by the Astral Plane.
Incidentally, the seven Heavens are: Lunia, Mercuria, Venya, Solania, Mertion, Jovar and Chronias. The Nine Hells are: Avernus, Dis, Minauros, Phlegethos, Stygia, Malbolge, Maladomini, Caina and Nessus. The Twin Paradises are Dothion and Shurrock. The Layers of the Abyss don't tend to have names, although Lolth hangs out in a Layer called "The Demonweb Pits" and the top layer is known as Pazunia (For the deity/demon Pazuzu who rules this layer and is also home to Tiamat).
Irenicus took the protagonist's soul, thus linking them. So when Irenicus died, he pulled the protagonist into the abyssal plane of the protagonist's father. This is due to the bhaal essence wanting to return to the source, the throne of bhaal. Why it didn't get all the way there isn't really known(most likely the throne itself wasn't developed plot-wise when SoA was completed). When Irenicus was killed in hell, he lost his grip on his stolen soul, and lost all his power, becoming nothing more than a lost soulless spirit. Thus, he's stuck in the same abyssal plane, while you return to your (still living) bodies and move on.
Weren't we explicitly told that whomever one of us died would cease to exist? what with being killed a soul in hell?
And because he is soulless, he belongs nowhere, and nobody in the Divine Bureaucracy will claim him, which makes the demons able to play with him forever.
How can one be a soulless soul? In the second fight, in hell, you are not fighting irenicus's body, his body is dead and gone... you are fighting his SOUL. Now, one could certainly have a soulless BODY, and in the case of charname you were half souled body for a while... I would think there was simply a clean separation between your divine stolen soul and his original soul...
Although, didn't someone say earlier elves don't have souls, they have as spirit instead? How does that work out? Or was that just for 1st ed?
@ChildofBhaal599 It's not mentioned in regards to Half-Elves. With their 30% resistance to sleep and charm, I would assume that if they don't go into reverie, they definitely sleep more lightly than humans do when they do sleep.
@ChildofBhaal599 It's not mentioned in regards to Half-Elves. With their 30% resistance to sleep and charm, I would assume that if they don't go into reverie, they definitely sleep more lightly than humans do when they do sleep.
One does have to wonder about half-elves... maybe this is why they are considered a race. Humans have a soul, elves have a spirit... half elves have neither, but an in-between hybrid that is completely different? Elves reverie, humans sleep... half elves do what?
And because he is soulless, he belongs nowhere, and nobody in the Divine Bureaucracy will claim him, which makes the demons able to play with him forever.
Don't know about that, being souless means he has an void inside him, something that the infernal energies of the abyss can fill with time, maybe in one or two centuries (or more) he will become something even more dangeours than Jon Irenicus.
Which would be an awesome twist. Irenicus emerges from the Abyss as a powerful demonic being, having literally gone through hell and beyond. And he still has his eyes set on one goal only - godhood, and revenge.
We need to mailspam Ed Greenwood until he makes this happen.
And because he is soulless, he belongs nowhere, and nobody in the Divine Bureaucracy will claim him, which makes the demons able to play with him forever.
How can one be a soulless soul?
It's a psionic shadow entity of a very powerful personage, a phantasmal memory and imprint on the world that forces it to acknowledge it's counternatural existence. Like an odour that lingers long after the source has been removed.
Soul is the core essence of a being, a divine spark of existance shared in our own existance to some cultures and a much more complicated aspect if we bring theosophical studies into this. Spirit is our persona into another state of existance, the energetic aspect of our conscious being.
For D&D things are handled a bit different as the idea of a divine spark in every person is rejected and reincarnation also is rejected (except as an spell). @scriver appointment was pretty good by the way, Irenicus in Hell would be a ethereal husk of his true being, a husk that contain his persona, his mind and concrete mind.
For D&D things are handled a bit different as the idea of a divine spark in every person is rejected and reincarnation also is rejected (except as an spell). @scriver appointment was pretty good by the way, Irenicus in Hell would be a ethereal husk of his true being, a husk that contain his persona, his mind and concrete mind.
And then you go into hell and KILL that husk/soul, so what goes to hell is the soul of his soul.
Which would be an awesome twist. Irenicus emerges from the Abyss as a powerful demonic being, having literally gone through hell and beyond. And he still has his eyes set on one goal only - godhood, and revenge.
We need to mailspam Ed Greenwood until he makes this happen.
I like that, although he should NOT be the main villain of BG3. Just a mini boss
Soul is the core essence of a being, a divine spark of existance shared in our own existance to some cultures and a much more complicated aspect if we bring theosophical studies into this. Spirit is our persona into another state of existance, the energetic aspect of our conscious being.
For D&D things are handled a bit different as the idea of a divine spark in every person is rejected and reincarnation also is rejected (except as an spell). @scriver appointment was pretty good by the way, Irenicus in Hell would be a ethereal husk of his true being, a husk that contain his persona, his mind and concrete mind.
Which would be an awesome twist. Irenicus emerges from the Abyss as a powerful demonic being, having literally gone through hell and beyond. And he still has his eyes set on one goal only - godhood, and revenge.
We need to mailspam Ed Greenwood until he makes this happen.
I like that, although he should NOT be the main villain of BG3. Just a mini boss
...BG3? You, good sir, are not thinking big enough! I'm talking about making him a permanent addition to the Forgotten Realms mythos! To become an enemy for generations of players to face and love and hate and love to hate and test their prowess against! ;D
Well, if DnD survives 5th Ed, that is. Which might not be a given.
Or maybe Aerie just likes complaining even when she's got nothing to complain about?
Yeah! Well, unless you've actually played the game, in which case, no; she's actually rather quiet.
With regards to Aerie though, she hasn't been around other elves much since she was still 'very young', so maybe she never really learnt how to reverie. But I do seem to recall somewhere that elves don't sweat, and at one point in her romance she wakes up from a nightmare, sweating (but I don't really know if the sweating thing is actually canon or not). She also doesn't seem sure if Faenya-Dail is to the north or south of Amn.
I think we have sufficient proof here to conclude that Aerie is in fact a doppelganger, cleverly infiltrating CHARNAME's party with a carefully maintained masquerade of innocence and sympathy. It's clearly part of the general doppelganger world conspiracy, seeking out powerful individuals (like a Bhaalchild) to lull them into their fold and manipulate them into their own, sinister agenda.
Don't be fooled, friends! Don't trust anyone who shouldn't sweat or sleep but does!
For D&D things are handled a bit different as the idea of a divine spark in every person is rejected and reincarnation also is rejected (except as an spell). @scriver appointment was pretty good by the way, Irenicus in Hell would be a ethereal husk of his true being, a husk that contain his persona, his mind and concrete mind.
And then you go into hell and KILL that husk/soul, so what goes to hell is the soul of his soul.
You don't, people tend to simplify things mirroring their bases in their own experience. You're not alive in Hell to be killed, there is only your spirit. By D&D lore, when a being dies, he is taken to the fugue plane to be moved the plane of the god he is linked to or to be imprisioned in the wall of the faithless.
However apparently bhaalspawns doesn't have this option in reason of Bhaal's plot. Every bhaalspawn in reason of their essence are dragged to their sire plan at death. You didn't died but irenicus did, and with half or your soul being carried to hell, the other half was dragged as well by an attraction effect, making even a portal zone at the surrounds that dragged every other living person as well (your party). That's at least is what the game directly give to you as justify.
Even not being judged, in my view (that can be not accurated and it's sole my opinion) both you and Irenicus are being taken with similar effects of petitioners in that realm, thus not being able to die. Any petitioner that dies in his god's plane always ressurect later no matter how he was slain. I believe the same to be happen with irenicus, with the difference of losing his graps to the divine essense he stole, thus losing any control over the plane.
To end, being both you and irenicus in Hell as spirits, there's no kill anymore, cos both are already dead (somehow).
Even not being judged, in my view (that can be not accurated and it's sole my opinion) both you and Irenicus are being taken with similar effects of petitioners in that realm, thus not being able to die. Any petitioner that dies in his god's plane always ressurect later no matter how he was slain. I believe the same to be happen with irenicus, with the difference of losing his graps to the divine essense he stole, thus losing any control over the plane.
That DOES make sense. Although doesn't Irenicus or sarevok's shade or something tells you "dying in here is dying for good" while you are in hell?.
Comments
Or...
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Fugue_Plane
If they were faithless they are condemned to the Wall of the Faithless.
If they pleased a deity, than 10 days after their death their soul is collected by their deity (aka, heaven, hell, abyss, etc). Most evil gods are batdung insane and their afterlife is terrible... unless they were REALLY impressed by you in your life. (try not to fail them)
If they intentionally betrayed their deity of choice after making a lifelong commitment (like irenicus), then
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/The_False
They can at most expect to be tortured on the fuge plane, not the hells.
During the 10 day waiting period, souls may bargain with devils for the right to be taken off to be transformed into a devil. Having bargained with devils during your lifetime is the safest and quickest bet towards that path.
I find the most plausible is that irenicus is being transformed into a devil. Although, the process of being transformed into a devil DOES involve being tortured a lot by other devils. But it requires that first they go to the fuge plane to make a deal with you
There are also the Inner Planes, which correspond to the Elemental Planes, Paraelemental Planes and QuasiElemental Planes, the Positive and Negative Energy Planes, and the Ethereal Plane tying them all together. Regular Elemental Planes are: Air, Fire, Earth and Water. ParaElemental Planes exist where two other planes meet: Magma for Earth and Fire, Ooze for Earth and Water, Steam for Fire and Water, Smoke for Fire and Air, Ice for Water and Air (yes, many mephitis come from these planes). QuasiElemental Planes are where the Primary planes interact with Positive and Negative Energy Planes. (Radiance for Fire and Positive Energy, Minerals for Earth and Positive Energy, Salt, Dust, Ash and Vacuum for Negative plus Water, Earth, Fire and Air respectively). The Inner planes are tied together and can be reached via the Ethereal Plane, while the outer planes can only be reached by the Astral Plane.
Incidentally, the seven Heavens are: Lunia, Mercuria, Venya, Solania, Mertion, Jovar and Chronias. The Nine Hells are: Avernus, Dis, Minauros, Phlegethos, Stygia, Malbolge, Maladomini, Caina and Nessus. The Twin Paradises are Dothion and Shurrock. The Layers of the Abyss don't tend to have names, although Lolth hangs out in a Layer called "The Demonweb Pits" and the top layer is known as Pazunia (For the deity/demon Pazuzu who rules this layer and is also home to Tiamat).
Now, one could certainly have a soulless BODY, and in the case of charname you were half souled body for a while...
I would think there was simply a clean separation between your divine stolen soul and his original soul...
Although, didn't someone say earlier elves don't have souls, they have as spirit instead? How does that work out? Or was that just for 1st ed?
Elves reverie, humans sleep... half elves do what?
its amazing they manage to crossbreed
We need to mailspam Ed Greenwood until he makes this happen. It's a psionic shadow entity of a very powerful personage, a phantasmal memory and imprint on the world that forces it to acknowledge it's counternatural existence. Like an odour that lingers long after the source has been removed.
Soul is the core essence of a being, a divine spark of existance shared in our own existance to some cultures and a much more complicated aspect if we bring theosophical studies into this. Spirit is our persona into another state of existance, the energetic aspect of our conscious being.
For D&D things are handled a bit different as the idea of a divine spark in every person is rejected and reincarnation also is rejected (except as an spell). @scriver appointment was pretty good by the way, Irenicus in Hell would be a ethereal husk of his true being, a husk that contain his persona, his mind and concrete mind.
...BG3? You, good sir, are not thinking big enough! I'm talking about making him a permanent addition to the Forgotten Realms mythos! To become an enemy for generations of players to face and love and hate and love to hate and test their prowess against! ;D
Well, if DnD survives 5th Ed, that is. Which might not be a given.
With regards to Aerie though, she hasn't been around other elves much since she was still 'very young', so maybe she never really learnt how to reverie. But I do seem to recall somewhere that elves don't sweat, and at one point in her romance she wakes up from a nightmare, sweating (but I don't really know if the sweating thing is actually canon or not). She also doesn't seem sure if Faenya-Dail is to the north or south of Amn.
Don't be fooled, friends! Don't trust anyone who shouldn't sweat or sleep but does!
The mental images... I bet they are really popular among certain fetishists
They are blue skinned not black.
However apparently bhaalspawns doesn't have this option in reason of Bhaal's plot. Every bhaalspawn in reason of their essence are dragged to their sire plan at death. You didn't died but irenicus did, and with half or your soul being carried to hell, the other half was dragged as well by an attraction effect, making even a portal zone at the surrounds that dragged every other living person as well (your party). That's at least is what the game directly give to you as justify.
Even not being judged, in my view (that can be not accurated and it's sole my opinion) both you and Irenicus are being taken with similar effects of petitioners in that realm, thus not being able to die. Any petitioner that dies in his god's plane always ressurect later no matter how he was slain. I believe the same to be happen with irenicus, with the difference of losing his graps to the divine essense he stole, thus losing any control over the plane.
To end, being both you and irenicus in Hell as spirits, there's no kill anymore, cos both are already dead (somehow).
Although doesn't Irenicus or sarevok's shade or something tells you "dying in here is dying for good" while you are in hell?.