Does the Blackguard get anything special?

Joey

Given that Paladins get argueably the best weapon in the game, what do Blackguard get to compensate? Is there an equivilent item for them?

Nic_Mercy

I doubt we'll know till BG2EE comes out but I would not be surprised if BG2EE adds a way to "corrupt" Carsomyr so Blackguard CHARNAMES or Dorn can use it. Or they may just add something completely new.

Dee

Blackguards have their own artifact to acquire.

Interestingly, it was already in the game.

shawne

ghostowl

shawne said:

Awww..it was only a 1d10+5? Wish it would level drain on hit or grant the user protection vs good or something....

shawne

Eh, Protection vs. Good tends to be rather useless in D&D games - there aren't many legitimate enemies you can actually fight who are actually Good.

Jarrakul

I still maintain that the Soul Reaver is the most reasonable Blackguard weapon in the game, and that they really don't need anything more. But it's possible the Unholy Reaver is going to actually be droppable. Hopefully it'll get something else, if so, or I'll probably just keep using Soul Reaver anyway.

Schneidend

Dee said:

Blackguards have their own artifact to acquire.

Interestingly, it was already in the game.

I think I might be in love with you.

shawne

@Jarrakul: As far as I know, Unholy Reaver was always droppable (by the Githyanki antipaladin in Athkatla after chapter 5) - it just couldn't be equipped because of the restriction.

Jarrakul

@shawne, really? I don't ever remember it dropping. Perhaps I'm simply forgetting about it, though, since it wasn't usable. Well, either way.

TJ_Hooker

@Jarrakul I could be wrong, but I kind of remember that the sword was already identified and had the same icon as a normal 2-handed sword, so it was really easy to miss.

Jarrakul

Oh. Well that'd probably explain it then. I'd be annoyed that I've missed it all this time, except that it's totally useless, at least until BG2EE.

Ryofu

well you can use it if you have the use any item ability

Jarrakul

...

I am now trying to imagine a circumstance in which I would actually do so. Maybe if I already had a paladin, the enemy had Greater Mantle up, and I hadn't gotten any of the TOB +5 weapons yet. That's... a pretty fringe case, but technically not impossible.

taltamir

Joey said:

Given that Paladins get argueably the best weapon in the game, what do Blackguard get to compensate? Is there an equivilent item for them?

Am I the only one totally unimpressed by the paladin specific weapons? I have 2 dozen +4 through +6 weapons with some REALLY interesting abilities and usable by anyone.

shawne

taltamir said:

Am I the only one totally unimpressed by the paladin specific weapons? I have 2 dozen +4 through +6 weapons with some REALLY interesting abilities and usable by anyone.

I don't know, Carsomyr has a lot going for it: +5 weapon, another +5 against Chaotic Evil (which you certainly face often enough), 50% MR and dispelling on strike? It's practically designed to shred enemy mages.

Basillicum

shawne said:

This weapon doesn't really live up to the standard of Carsomyr. However, I think it's worth mentioning that evil characters are usually more powerful than good characters already, and a good reason for this is that they are more ambitious. One could argue that an evil character would spend more time increasing their own abilities instead of empowering a weapon that some other evil person could steal and use.

shawne

Basillicum said:

This weapon doesn't really live up to the standard of Carsomyr.

I'm assuming it can be upgraded at Cromwell's, or through pursuing Dorn's questline...

Basillicum said:

However, I think it's worth mentioning that evil characters are usually more powerful than good characters already, and a good reason for this is that they are more ambitious. One could argue that an evil character would spend more time increasing their own abilities instead of empowering a weapon that some other evil person could steal and use.

In terms of story, perhaps, but in terms of gameplay you find/steal better equipment all the time. In BG:EE, Dorn's personal sword is inferior to both Spider's Bane and The World's Edge - and I'm willing to bet most players give him one or the other as soon as they acquire them.

Corvino

I had never noticed the Unholy Reaver in BG2 before, but if it's got the standard 2h sword icon and is already identified then damn.

Dee said it's already ingame, but not that it's going to be exactly the same...

That said, the Soul Reaver is pretty badass. I've never had an evil 2h-sword user though, so it usually gets sold.

dib

shawne said:

Basillicum said:

This weapon doesn't really live up to the standard of Carsomyr.

I'm assuming it can be upgraded at Cromwell's, or through pursuing Dorn's questline...

I hope not, I have no interest in any NPCs, but I do like using Blackguards.

Kaltzor

Well, I was planning on going Two Weapon with my Blackguard anyways... Dorn can have the sword while I go around swinging Flail of Ages and Crom Faeyr.

alnair

Schneidend said:

I think I might be in love with you.

Get in line

taltamir

shawne said:

taltamir said:

Am I the only one totally unimpressed by the paladin specific weapons? I have 2 dozen +4 through +6 weapons with some REALLY interesting abilities and usable by anyone.

I don't know, Carsomyr has a lot going for it: +5 weapon, another +5 against Chaotic Evil (which you certainly face often enough), 50% MR and dispelling on strike? It's practically designed to shred enemy mages.

1. +5 weapon - I have dozens of those, I have some +6. And actually carsomyr upgrades to a +6 so its not fair to call it a +5 weapon
2. another +5 v CE - You are also fighting TN (any golem), LE, NE... and its only a +5 damage which doesn't matter all that much considering all the other sources of damage (ex: Str over 19).
3. 50% MR - that is impressive
4. Dispell on strike - one of the best abilities in the game. But I have several weapons that do that or equally impressive things.

I am not saying it is a bad weapon, I just don't get why its so hyped up compared to the dozen other top tier weapons in BG2.
The biggest downside of carsomyr is that it is 2 handed. You are simply missing out on too much by not having an off handed weapon with their massive bonuses (+1 APR, set str to 25, etc etc).

Corvino

Working as described Carsomyr is very good indeed. Unfortunately in vanilla BG2 it is bugged to hell. The dispel on hit doesn't really work and the damage is d10+5 instead of d12+5. Even so, it's still one of the better items in SoA.

shawne

@taltamir:

1. Yes, there are all sorts of +5 and +6 weapons, but there's also base damage to consider - a +6 dagger won't do the same damage as a +6 longsword, and neither will match a +6 greatsword. The only weapon in the game that does more base damage than Carsomyr is the upgraded Staff of the Ram, and it lacks the other useful qualities of the weapon.

2. It's not a gamebreaker, no... but it gives you an edge when fighting, say, Demogorgon.

3. All the more impressive in the EE, since magic resistance has apparently been fixed to be specific to harmful magic - no more party members resisting a Heal spell.

4. Actually, the only other weapon I know of that dispels on hit is the Staff of the Magi, which is probably better off in the hands of a mage.

5. Keep in mind that different characters have different proficiencies - Crom Faeyr may give you a huge STR bonus, but if you don't have any skill with hammers it's not quite as efficient as it could be. The typical strategy seems to be giving Crom Faeyr and the Flail of Ages to someone with both dual-wielding and weapon-specific proficiencies while Carsomyr goes to either Keldorn or a Paladin PC.

taltamir

shawne said:

@taltamir:

1. Yes, there are all sorts of +5 and +6 weapons, but there's also base damage to consider - a +6 dagger won't do the same damage as a +6 longsword, and neither will match a +6 greatsword. The only weapon in the game that does more base damage than Carsomyr is the upgraded Staff of the Ram, and it lacks the other useful qualities of the weapon.

2. It's not a gamebreaker, no... but it gives you an edge when fighting, say, Demogorgon.

3. All the more impressive in the EE, since magic resistance has apparently been fixed to be specific to harmful magic - no more party members resisting a Heal spell.

4. Actually, the only other weapon I know of that dispels on hit is the Staff of the Magi, which is probably better off in the hands of a mage.

5. Keep in mind that different characters have different proficiencies - Crom Faeyr may give you a huge STR bonus, but if you don't have any skill with hammers it's not quite as efficient as it could be. The typical strategy seems to be giving Crom Faeyr and the Flail of Ages to someone with both dual-wielding and weapon-specific proficiencies while Carsomyr goes to either Keldorn or a Paladin PC.

1. d10 is an average of 5.5 damage. It has a base damage of 10.5, 11.5 upgraded. +5 against CE. Most of my +5/6 weapons have higher base damage than that. Every possible 2 weapon build has a much higher DPS than that and a bunch of non damage goodies from offhand weapon.
2. That guy was a pushover.
3. True
4. Staff of the magi is completely and utterly worthless in the hands of a mage, it has absolutely NOTHING useful to a mage. It is one of the best melee weapons in the game though... However it is limited such that only a mage can equip it. Luckily fighter/mages count as well. As can an epic theif (hopefuly fighter/theif).
As for its rarity... I might have confused a few "reduce magic resistance" or "add spell failure to target" weapons with it.
5. I really hate the proficiency system... it makes sense in pnp because there you have weapons custom made for you and then upgrade them. But in D&D CRPGs you always get custom designed epic weapons which means that the only way to not be totally screwed is to read some spoilers ahead of time.
Having done my research before playing on which proficiencies to pick REALLY paid off. Also a mod to make BG2 use BG1 proficiency system, and making sure PC is at least part fighter. Combine that with all the "X of giant Y" items and my entire party is melee worthy

Drugar

The Reaver is a red herring.

The Flasher Launcher with its Flasher Master Bruiser Mates will soon be Blackguard only.

taltamir

Correction about Carsomyr...
The Holy Avenger: Carsomyr +6
1d12+6, +6 to CE = 12.5, 18.5 vsCE.

if you look through the craftable items only (even excluding the items you find already +5) a good number out damage it while being 1 handed. And base damage is diminished by the str bonus and mastery
http://www.planetbaldursgate.com/bg2/walkthrough/recipes/
Storm Star +5
Damage: 1d6+5, + 1d6 electricity damage. = 3.5 + 5 +3.5 = 12 damage per hit, is 1 handed, and has 5% chance to cast chain lightening that deals.... 1d6 per caster level... anyone knows what is the caster level on a spell cast by an item?

Staff of Ram +6
Damage: 1d6+12 crushing, +1d4 piercing. = 3.5 + 12 +2.5 = 18
2 handed

Spectral Brand +5
Damage: 1d8+5, +1d6 cold damage. = 4.5 + 5 + 3.5 = 13
note sure if 1 or 2 handed, i think 1.

Short Sword of the Mask +5
Damage: 1d6+5 = 3.5 + 5 = 8.5
1 handed

Runehammer +5
Damage: 2d4+5 = 2.5 + 2.5 + 5 = 10, double vs undead (which also doubles your str bonus and mastery bonus)
1 handed

Ravager +6
1d10 + 6 = 5.5 + 6 = 11.5
plus 3-18 poison damage per hit (aka 3d6) = 3 * 3.5 = 10.5
Total damage is thus 22 per hit, before factoring in str and proficiency bonuses.

Purifier +5
Damage: 2d4+5, +4 v CE = 10, 14 v CE
1 handed

Ixil's Spike +6
Damage: 1d6+6 = 9.5
plus save or take additiona 1d6+5 = 8.5 for 3 rounds
2 handed

Gram the Sword of Grief +5
Damage: 1d10+5 = 10.5
10% chance of 2d12 poison damage with each hit = 0.1 * 2 * 6.5 = 1.3 damage per hit on average.
save v death or level drain 1 level.
I think it might have been one handed

Foebane +5
Damage: 2d4+5; +6 vs. undead, shapeshifters, and extra-planar creatures (demons, planetars, etc.)
= 10, 16 vs others.
1 handed.

Flail of Ages +5
Damage: 1d6+6, +2 fire damage, +2 cold damage, +2 acid damage, +2 electric damage, +2 poison damage.
= 19.5
1 handed

Dagger of the Star +5
Damage: 1d4+5 = 7.5
5% chance of dealing an additional 1d8 fire and 1d8 electric damage to the target.
= 0.05 * 2 * 4.5 = +0.45 damage total on average
1 handed

Club of Detonation +5
Damage: 1d6+5, +5 extra fire damage. = 13.5
30% chance of dealing an extra 10 fire damage with each hit = 0.3 * 10 = +3
5% chance of Fireball centered on target with each successful hit = ??? what caster level?
1 handed

Axe of Unyielding +5
1 handed

Angurvadal +5: Flame Tongue
Damage: 1d8+5 = 9.5
increases str to 22... AWESOME offhanded weapon as the str bonuses are massive!
1 Handed

Joey

shawne said:

I am aware of that weapon from BG2 and it's crap. It doesn't even begin to compare to 50% Magic Resistance and dispel on hit, both of which compensate for being a two-handed weapon.

So the answer it seems is "no", Blackguard are just Paladins without access to the one thing that makes paladins good in BG2. If this were NWN 2 then I would have a different opinion entirely though.

CutlassJack

Joey said:

So the answer it seems is "no", Blackguard are just Paladins without access to the one thing that makes paladins good in BG2. If this were NWN 2 then I would have a different opinion entirely though.

That makes the assumption they will be keeping the Unholy Reaver with exactly the same stats it had in the Non-EE version. Since Blackguards didn't exist in that version at least some editing of the weapon needs to happen. And with both Blackguards and Dorn figuring prominently in the EE, it would be a missed opportunity if they didn't have add an upgrade option just like Carsomyr.

shawne

@Joey: You realize the devs can tweak its properties, right? Who knows what they'll add to it.