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Edwin Tweaks

ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
edited October 2013 in Feature Requests
After much searching, I finally found the stats for the 2nd edition red wizard.

With Edwin there are only 2 possible paths to take.

1. He isn't a red wizard at all. A specialist mage must be at least 10th level before they can under go the ritual that makes them a red wizard. He is merely an aspiring red wizard in BG1 and should have no bonuses. In BG2, he is an outcast and would not have been raised to to full red wizard status. If you assume his amulet has nothing to do with being a red wizard, then nerf it back to it's BG1 level of power (only affecting 1st and 2nd level spells).

2. He is a Red Wizard. Remove his amulet and then he gains +1 extra bonus spells to all spell levels (down from 2), but also gains an additional opposed school (I would recommend Evocation (though necromancy is also a valid choice), since Conjurers are supposed to lose evocation and divination anyway).

(the only rule about the extra opposed school is that it must be next to one of their current opposed schools on the opposition wheel. A Conjurer Red Wizard (loses Divination and Evocation) could only choose Necromancy or alteration, since Alteration is next to divination, and necromancy is next to evocation)

The bonus/penalty from option 2 can be easily applied to his affects tab of each version of his character without any need for using the necklace slot at all. This wasn't possible in BG1, but in BG2 and EE it is.
Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
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Comments

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447

    If the max castable bug is ever fixed his 18 int is already a massive bonus vs most other npcs, and he does not need any further free benefits on top making even option 1 perfectly viable.

    Confirmed fixed. :)
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited September 2013
    They gonna implement the minimum 17 wisdom for 6th level divine, and 18 wisdom for 7th for divine spells too (or add the failure chances for 12 and lower wisdom)? Or was that just fixing that one bug.

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    The only bug was that Intelligence wasn't working correctly for writing mage spells; that's been fixed now, which makes Edwin a much better candidate than just about any other mage in the game.
  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    Strongly support either option. Due to the bugfix he's already easily the strongest mage companion (and thus the strongest companion full stop :P) and I don't think most people who like the game's current balance would begrudge making him slightly less overpowered.
  • FrecheFreche Member Posts: 473
    Considering dialogue in the game I don't think option 1 would work.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited September 2013
    He can still be a red wizard initiate...He just wouldn't be a full red wizard with all the perks that entails.

    (the whole reason he's on the run in BG2 is because he stole several things from his sponsor to the order and ran. At best he could hit lvl 9 while in BG1...which puts him under the amount needed for being raised, and due to the games timeline, there's no time for him to be raised to full Red Wizard, even if he managed to hit lvl 10 while returning to Thay, it wouldn't coincide to the time of the Raising Ceremony).

    The red wizard kit is one of the few 2nd edition kits that specifically cannot be taken at creation and is added after the fact (similar to a prestige class), so ALL "red wizards" lower then lvl 10 are really just normal specialists who haven't taken the kit yet but have the tattoos and marks to prove that they are an aspirant of the Red Wizards.
    Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    But Edwin being overpowered is tradition! D:
  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    He'd still be overpowered. He just wouldn't render every non-CHARNAME wizard utterly useless. Only mostly useless. xD
  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,175
    He's not that overpowered because he's just super annoying, which balance him well. I use him rarely.

  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,244
    edited October 2013

    He isn't a red wizard at all. A specialist mage must be at least 10th level before they can under go the ritual that makes them a red wizard.

    And Haer'Dalis isn't Doomguard, so what?
    Poeple can't be Classes unsupported by BG.
    Moreover, his level depends on CHARNAME lvl.
    Try talk to him for the first time on lvl 20 and then look on his skills.

    Give Edwin 2000 years and a pointy hat and he kick Elminster arse!
    ( BTW Elmister is Mage/Fighter in BG2 )
    Edwin_Odesseiron
  • Edwin_OdesseironEdwin_Odesseiron Member Posts: 226
    Could not disagree more. If you were to scrutinize every NPC this way, there would have to be changes all across the board. A more obvious change would be changing Aerie to either a mage, a cleric, or a half-elf so she can be her current class. As an Elf, she should not be able to have the multi-class she has. However, this is never going to happen. For the last time, this is NOT PnP.

    As Edvin said, people can't be classes unsupported by BG. Besides, in RP terms, what is "level 10"? If a Red Wizard studied his lectures, passed whatever tests required of him, etc, he would be raised to a proper member of the order. It wouldn't be "Oh, I've just gained 250 000 XP points, I am level 10! Time for Ascension!" Besides, Edwin's "overpowered" state comes from the amulet, which he'd have regardless of his status among the Thayvians, since the amulet is always on his person. He could join the Cowled Wizards, Zhentarim, it would not matter. He'd still be "overpowered" due to the amulet, it's nothing to do with him being a Red Wizard or not.

    I would, however, support a side-quest idea for Edwin, to be based on whether or not he becomes a fully fledged Red Wizard. But this should not have any impact on his stats, nor that glorious amulet. Then again, he already has a side quest, and a good one at that. Making more for him would make the game too Edwin-centric, and he's just a party member. This is the Bhaalspawn Saga, not the Saga of if one NPC who you may or may not take with you is the correct level to achieve a promotion within his order.

    So really, I see no reason to change anything. Edwin is a Red Wizard who has been present in his current form since the VANILLA release, 15 years ago. He's an original NPC who has always been there. Changing him in any way would not only ruin the character, it would kill the nostalgia for a lot of people. It's been 15 years. Try to come to terms with it.
    arvanahFenghoang
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited October 2013
    And his amulet would be removed, as it's no longer necessary. If you subscribe to the fact that he is a full red wizard, then yay, he gains an extra opposed school and a bonus +1 spells per spell level. Or he can keep is amulet and gain TWO extra opposed schools....the fact remains, if he's going to call himself a full Red Wizard he is getting at least 1 more opposed school.

    Level 10 is a clear showing of raw power and proficiency in their art. Level 10 is where 95% of people in the world who attain high levels cap out. The Red Wizards only allow the strongest and most driven Wizards to formally enter their order as full members and have to pass rigorous tests of skill and power, which a mage less then 10 cannot complete, since they outright lack the power needed.

    (And 10 is minimum level...it's no guarantee you'll complete the trials, and even then you still have to receive a nomination for raising, and THEN only about 10 red wizards per province are raised each year, at a Raising Ceremony that only happens once per year, to celebrate the founding of the Red Wizards and Thay winning it's independence from Mulhorond).

    Most red wizard initiates go their entire lives without ever becoming a full fledged red wizard.





    The fact remains, Edwin is NOT in fact a full red wizard. He cannot possibly be one in BG1, and in BG2 the red wizard that comes to capture him actually calls him a rogue initiate, so regardless of his level, is was never raised to full red wizard status.

    If you subscribe that he isn't a red wizard and his amulet has nothing to do with being a red wizard, then it needs to be nerfed back to it's BG1 vanilla level of power. (Only affecting 1st and 2nd level spells).
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680

    If you subscribe that he isn't a red wizard and his amulet has nothing to do with being a red wizard, then it needs to be nerfed back to it's BG1 vanilla level of power. (Only affecting 1st and 2nd level spells).

    I don't see what being a red wizard has to do with his amulet? A bunch of stuff got changed between BG1 and BG2 (in particular the stats for a lot of NPCs). I don't see the amulet change as being anything different to these other unexplained changes.

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited October 2013
    His amulet was added to give him bonus spell slots for being a red wizard, because in BG1 they couldn't add them to the character or give him an extra opposed school. It's possible to do now, so the amulet has no purpose any more. It's an easy enough tweak to make, so I might post the fixed files later.

    And there is a huge difference between tweaking a couple stat points that barely affected a character, and changing an item that previous was just a slightly more powerful amulet of meta-spell influence into THE most powerful magical Artifact in the BG Saga....with no downside.

    And he has the highest int of any NPC to boot.

    As in, he is now the only NPC mage that can cast 9th level spells without using items or receiving buffs (such as from Lum's Machine). Imeon and Nalia are close, and can be bumped up via that +1 int Ioun stone or a Lum buff, but Aerie and Jan would need both, since 16-17 only allows up to 8th.
    Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,244
    @ZanathKariashi
    I begin to agree with you after Beamdog release Red wizard kit.
    Until then, it makes no sense to complain that Edwin is not something that is not in the game.

    It makes sense, though they may be in the game unplayable race ( like Drow and Tiefling ) why not also unplayable classes like Red wizard? How hard can it be to change him to Red wizard?
  • DrugarDrugar Member Posts: 1,566
    The only change Edwin needs is an increase in his assholery.

    Even more?

    Yes, even more.
    arvanah
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    There's a difference when something can be easily implemented. The Player can NEVER become a Red wizard, it's completely impossible and no way what so ever it can ever be roleplayed, none, so it will never be added.


    Edwin can however have the bonuses properly applied right now. You literally just remove his amulet, change the value of his bonus slot affect to 2, and then copy the opposed school affect from say an enchanter and past it into his affect tab, viola, 2 total spells per spell level, and 2 opposed schools. And do so for every version of the npc file. No complicated scripting or programing, no new kits to mess with...a quick and easy fix.

    Hell, you can do it via Shadow Keeper it's so easy, instead of having to mess with something like NI.
  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 486
    Dee said:

    If the max castable bug is ever fixed his 18 int is already a massive bonus vs most other npcs, and he does not need any further free benefits on top making even option 1 perfectly viable.

    Confirmed fixed. :)
    Dee said:

    The only bug was that Intelligence wasn't working correctly for writing mage spells; that's been fixed now, which makes Edwin a much better candidate than just about any other mage in the game.

    Could you explain what has been fixed? Do we now actually need 18 int to write 9th lvl spells or what?
  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    @Bercon: Basically, yeah. Each spell level now has a minimum intelligence. If my Android app is correct it goes like this:

    To cast 4th level spells 9 Intelligence is needed.
    To cast 5th level ones 11 Intelligence is needed.
    To cast 6th level spells you need 12 Intelligence.
    14 Intelligence for 7th level.
    16 intelligence for 8th level and 18 intelligence for 9th level.

    Basically it's a pretty big nerf to every non-Edwin mage in BG2.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Bercon said:

    Dee said:

    If the max castable bug is ever fixed his 18 int is already a massive bonus vs most other npcs, and he does not need any further free benefits on top making even option 1 perfectly viable.

    Confirmed fixed. :)
    Dee said:

    The only bug was that Intelligence wasn't working correctly for writing mage spells; that's been fixed now, which makes Edwin a much better candidate than just about any other mage in the game.

    Could you explain what has been fixed? Do we now actually need 18 int to write 9th lvl spells or what?
    Intelligence is supposed to limit how many spells you can write per level, and it's also supposed to limit the maximum level of spell you can learn. Previously, however, if your intelligence was "too low to learn a spell", it not only would allow you to learn the spell anyway--at 100% success rate, even on higher difficulties--but it would also remove the limit on the number of spells you can write for that level. So it was actually beneficial to have a low Intelligence, because it gave you greater access to spells.

    That issue's been resolved, so that now if your Intelligence is 9, the best you can do is learn level 1 spells. Edwin, at 18 Intelligence, is the only recruitable NPC mage in the game who can write level 9 spells right off the bat.
  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    @Dee 'right off the bat'? Does that imply there will be new ways to improve the Intelligence of BG2 NPCs? Neera would especially appreciate that, being only 1 off Edwin. xD
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    I believe there is already at least one way to increase your Intelligence. To my knowledge, we haven't added any more.
    Tome
  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    The Machine of Lum the mad? I was under the (probably false) impression that was PC-only. Thanks for the clarifications nonetheless! :D
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438

    His amulet was added to give him bonus spell slots for being a red wizard, because in BG1 they couldn't add them to the character

    Item, spell, and creature effects are equal--any effect applied by an item can be applied via creature or spell effects, or vice versa.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    @Dee

    Might need to fix that table if 9 int only allows lvl 1. Last I checked the int 2da had the proper values, but it wasn't working at the time, so I can't really confirm.

    9 = up to 4th
    10-11 = 5th
    12-13 = 6th
    14-15 = 7th
    16-17 = 8th
    18-19 = 9th
    20+ = 10th (if the high level slots were actually implemented)
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Sorry, level 4. I mistyped. :)
  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 486
    So basically all 9 lvl spells are banned from all NPCs excluding Edwin? Are you serious? I think that is a huge mistake. Its fine to give them super low chance of learning them, but outright forbidding all NPCs from casting 9 lvl spells is just ridiculous. Since most mage HLAs take up 9 lvl spell slot, these are banned too?

    Whats the point of NPCs mages in ToB if they don't gain HLAs and 9 lvl spells?
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    The truth is, @Bercon, they shouldn't have been getting them in the first place; the limitation was implemented but broken. I won't deny that this makes Edwin a much more attractive candidate, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a bug, and a pretty major one at that.
  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 486
    edited October 2013
    I guess for Nalia and Imoen it is not such a huge deal, because you get Golden Ioun Stone the first thing in Saradush, which raises both of them to 18 int. But IMO it does make Edwin far far too good NPC, I'd say unintentionally good and buggy. At least nerf his amulet to level it was in BG:EE.
    Tome
  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    Would it be an acceptable compromise to simply keep Edwin's Amulet as it is in BG:EE then, as Bercon said? It's already the best amulet in the game, the BG2 buff was totally unneeded IMO.
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