Edwin Tweaks
ZanathKariashi
Member Posts: 2,869
After much searching, I finally found the stats for the 2nd edition red wizard.
With Edwin there are only 2 possible paths to take.
1. He isn't a red wizard at all. A specialist mage must be at least 10th level before they can under go the ritual that makes them a red wizard. He is merely an aspiring red wizard in BG1 and should have no bonuses. In BG2, he is an outcast and would not have been raised to to full red wizard status. If you assume his amulet has nothing to do with being a red wizard, then nerf it back to it's BG1 level of power (only affecting 1st and 2nd level spells).
2. He is a Red Wizard. Remove his amulet and then he gains +1 extra bonus spells to all spell levels (down from 2), but also gains an additional opposed school (I would recommend Evocation (though necromancy is also a valid choice), since Conjurers are supposed to lose evocation and divination anyway).
(the only rule about the extra opposed school is that it must be next to one of their current opposed schools on the opposition wheel. A Conjurer Red Wizard (loses Divination and Evocation) could only choose Necromancy or alteration, since Alteration is next to divination, and necromancy is next to evocation)
The bonus/penalty from option 2 can be easily applied to his affects tab of each version of his character without any need for using the necklace slot at all. This wasn't possible in BG1, but in BG2 and EE it is.
With Edwin there are only 2 possible paths to take.
1. He isn't a red wizard at all. A specialist mage must be at least 10th level before they can under go the ritual that makes them a red wizard. He is merely an aspiring red wizard in BG1 and should have no bonuses. In BG2, he is an outcast and would not have been raised to to full red wizard status. If you assume his amulet has nothing to do with being a red wizard, then nerf it back to it's BG1 level of power (only affecting 1st and 2nd level spells).
2. He is a Red Wizard. Remove his amulet and then he gains +1 extra bonus spells to all spell levels (down from 2), but also gains an additional opposed school (I would recommend Evocation (though necromancy is also a valid choice), since Conjurers are supposed to lose evocation and divination anyway).
(the only rule about the extra opposed school is that it must be next to one of their current opposed schools on the opposition wheel. A Conjurer Red Wizard (loses Divination and Evocation) could only choose Necromancy or alteration, since Alteration is next to divination, and necromancy is next to evocation)
The bonus/penalty from option 2 can be easily applied to his affects tab of each version of his character without any need for using the necklace slot at all. This wasn't possible in BG1, but in BG2 and EE it is.
Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
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(the whole reason he's on the run in BG2 is because he stole several things from his sponsor to the order and ran. At best he could hit lvl 9 while in BG1...which puts him under the amount needed for being raised, and due to the games timeline, there's no time for him to be raised to full Red Wizard, even if he managed to hit lvl 10 while returning to Thay, it wouldn't coincide to the time of the Raising Ceremony).
The red wizard kit is one of the few 2nd edition kits that specifically cannot be taken at creation and is added after the fact (similar to a prestige class), so ALL "red wizards" lower then lvl 10 are really just normal specialists who haven't taken the kit yet but have the tattoos and marks to prove that they are an aspirant of the Red Wizards.
Poeple can't be Classes unsupported by BG.
Moreover, his level depends on CHARNAME lvl.
Try talk to him for the first time on lvl 20 and then look on his skills.
Give Edwin 2000 years and a pointy hat and he kick Elminster arse!
( BTW Elmister is Mage/Fighter in BG2 )
As Edvin said, people can't be classes unsupported by BG. Besides, in RP terms, what is "level 10"? If a Red Wizard studied his lectures, passed whatever tests required of him, etc, he would be raised to a proper member of the order. It wouldn't be "Oh, I've just gained 250 000 XP points, I am level 10! Time for Ascension!" Besides, Edwin's "overpowered" state comes from the amulet, which he'd have regardless of his status among the Thayvians, since the amulet is always on his person. He could join the Cowled Wizards, Zhentarim, it would not matter. He'd still be "overpowered" due to the amulet, it's nothing to do with him being a Red Wizard or not.
I would, however, support a side-quest idea for Edwin, to be based on whether or not he becomes a fully fledged Red Wizard. But this should not have any impact on his stats, nor that glorious amulet. Then again, he already has a side quest, and a good one at that. Making more for him would make the game too Edwin-centric, and he's just a party member. This is the Bhaalspawn Saga, not the Saga of if one NPC who you may or may not take with you is the correct level to achieve a promotion within his order.
So really, I see no reason to change anything. Edwin is a Red Wizard who has been present in his current form since the VANILLA release, 15 years ago. He's an original NPC who has always been there. Changing him in any way would not only ruin the character, it would kill the nostalgia for a lot of people. It's been 15 years. Try to come to terms with it.
Level 10 is a clear showing of raw power and proficiency in their art. Level 10 is where 95% of people in the world who attain high levels cap out. The Red Wizards only allow the strongest and most driven Wizards to formally enter their order as full members and have to pass rigorous tests of skill and power, which a mage less then 10 cannot complete, since they outright lack the power needed.
(And 10 is minimum level...it's no guarantee you'll complete the trials, and even then you still have to receive a nomination for raising, and THEN only about 10 red wizards per province are raised each year, at a Raising Ceremony that only happens once per year, to celebrate the founding of the Red Wizards and Thay winning it's independence from Mulhorond).
Most red wizard initiates go their entire lives without ever becoming a full fledged red wizard.
The fact remains, Edwin is NOT in fact a full red wizard. He cannot possibly be one in BG1, and in BG2 the red wizard that comes to capture him actually calls him a rogue initiate, so regardless of his level, is was never raised to full red wizard status.
If you subscribe that he isn't a red wizard and his amulet has nothing to do with being a red wizard, then it needs to be nerfed back to it's BG1 vanilla level of power. (Only affecting 1st and 2nd level spells).
And there is a huge difference between tweaking a couple stat points that barely affected a character, and changing an item that previous was just a slightly more powerful amulet of meta-spell influence into THE most powerful magical Artifact in the BG Saga....with no downside.
And he has the highest int of any NPC to boot.
As in, he is now the only NPC mage that can cast 9th level spells without using items or receiving buffs (such as from Lum's Machine). Imeon and Nalia are close, and can be bumped up via that +1 int Ioun stone or a Lum buff, but Aerie and Jan would need both, since 16-17 only allows up to 8th.
I begin to agree with you after Beamdog release Red wizard kit.
Until then, it makes no sense to complain that Edwin is not something that is not in the game.
It makes sense, though they may be in the game unplayable race ( like Drow and Tiefling ) why not also unplayable classes like Red wizard? How hard can it be to change him to Red wizard?
Even more?
Yes, even more.
Edwin can however have the bonuses properly applied right now. You literally just remove his amulet, change the value of his bonus slot affect to 2, and then copy the opposed school affect from say an enchanter and past it into his affect tab, viola, 2 total spells per spell level, and 2 opposed schools. And do so for every version of the npc file. No complicated scripting or programing, no new kits to mess with...a quick and easy fix.
Hell, you can do it via Shadow Keeper it's so easy, instead of having to mess with something like NI.
To cast 4th level spells 9 Intelligence is needed.
To cast 5th level ones 11 Intelligence is needed.
To cast 6th level spells you need 12 Intelligence.
14 Intelligence for 7th level.
16 intelligence for 8th level and 18 intelligence for 9th level.
Basically it's a pretty big nerf to every non-Edwin mage in BG2.
That issue's been resolved, so that now if your Intelligence is 9, the best you can do is learn level 1 spells. Edwin, at 18 Intelligence, is the only recruitable NPC mage in the game who can write level 9 spells right off the bat.
Might need to fix that table if 9 int only allows lvl 1. Last I checked the int 2da had the proper values, but it wasn't working at the time, so I can't really confirm.
9 = up to 4th
10-11 = 5th
12-13 = 6th
14-15 = 7th
16-17 = 8th
18-19 = 9th
20+ = 10th (if the high level slots were actually implemented)
Whats the point of NPCs mages in ToB if they don't gain HLAs and 9 lvl spells?