Improve the Wizard Slayer!

Silence

Poor, poor wizard slayers. These unfortunate heroes been described as ‘underpowered’, ‘unbalanced’ and ‘bottom of the barrel’ @Tanthalas

The wizard slayer is a beautiful concept but is not well executed. Despite been imagined as an ‘anti-magic specialist’, the wizard slayer is not that effective at dealing with spellcasters for several reasons. First, their miscast magic ability comes with a number of stipulations which keep it from being truly useful: it does not apply to missile weapons and can be easily circumvented by the mirror image spell. Additionally, the Wizard Slayer’s magic resistance ability is problematic, in part because it’s so low. The magic resistance afforded the Wizard Slayer kit is easily exceeded by magic items (such as the Cloak of Balduran), is significantly lower than that of other NPCs (Baeloth and Viconia) and is generally inferior to the immunities received by other kits (e.g.: Paladin kits and Berserker/Barbarians in rage).

Sadly, the mediocre magic-nullifying powers of the Wizard Slayer come at a high cost: the inability to use all magic gear. As a result, the Wizard Slayer suffers severely as a fighter, as they cannot use some of the game’s best items (including gauntlets of weapon specialization, girdles of giant strength and AC-enhancing items).

These comments are not strictly my own, but are the insightful observations of a large population of fans who feel this kit needs more love and attention (see many threads below). The futility of the kit has even lead one fan to suggest the true name of the kit should be ‘slayed-by-wizards.’ @Kamigoroshi

However, there’s hope. With the recent changes to the Shadowdancer kit, as well as the responsiveness of the BG:EE team to feedback overall, I think it’s possible that we can finally see a version of the Wizard Slayer that would satisfy hardcore fans and casual gamers alike. This poll will hopefully raise awareness for this unfortunate issue. For the low price of one online vote, you can support a Wizard Slayer today.

Threads:

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/48/improve-wizard-slayer [ @Anton , thschutt]

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/13206/inquisitor-vs-wizard-slayer [ @belgarathmth ]

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/6973/attn-wizard-slayer-haters [ @orosius ]

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/18503/ideas-for-wizard-slayer [ @Necromancer ]

http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?s=dab0b43c19c368d731912522cb56d288&showtopic=17358 [ @Demivrgvs ]

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/5987/should-the-wizard-slayer-have-a-way-to-bypass-or-dispel-combat-protection-spells [ @PugPug ]

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/4005/an-in-depth-look-at-the-wizard-slayer-kit-suggestions-to-improve-it-for-phil-s-reddit-request/p1 [ @Dragonspear ]

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/14516/more-pnp-accurate-wizard-slayer-if-possible [ @ZanathKariashi ]

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/18709/wizard-slayer-allow-use-of-divinely-enchanted-items [ @Lemernis ]

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/22918/why-don-t-you-play-as-the-wizard-slayer-kit-in-bg2/p1 [ @Joey]

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/415781 [great mod for wizard slayers]

ZanathKariashi

If it's possible to modify attacks in such away that normal weapons can by-pass hit requirements then a PnP accurate Wizard Slayer should be possible.

As fighter except -

Benefits -

Attempts to dispel the target on every melee hit, as per the spell, caster level equals class level.
Any caster struck in melee must save or suffer a 25% spell failure penalty.

Any melee weapon wielded can by-pass hit requirements, based on level. +1 per 4 levels (maximum of +5).

At lvl 4, Protection from normal weapons cannot affect weapons wielded by the wizard slayer. Weapons wielded by a wizard slayer are never considered magical.

Wizard Slayer has 40% Magic resistance, with +3% per level (maximum of 100% at 20). Wizard slayers are immune to spells that modify magic resistance or drain levels.

Attacks that deal magical damage only deal 50% damage to a wizard slayer. Hostile spells with durations last half as long.

Armor worn grants a +1 bonus to all saves vs magical effects per 4 levels. (maximum of +5)

Shields worn grant a +1 bonus to saves vs breath/spells per 4 levels. (maximum of +5).
Shield and armor bonuses stack vs applicable effects.

At lvl 10+, once per day the wizard slayer can create an anti-magic shell, as per the spell granting them total immunity to magic for 1 round per level. Extends out 15ft and removes all magical buffs from anyone within the area of effect every second for the duration. Creatures within are also suffer a 100% spell failure penalty. Conjured, but not Gated creatures, that enter the area of effect are immediately dispelled.

Penalties -
Cannot be Gnome, Half-elf, or Elf
Cannot use any magical items.
Magic resistance applies to beneficial and hostile spells.
Healing received from magical sources is only 50% effective. Beneficial spells with durations last half as long.
Cannot go beyond specialization in weapons. (or at least he's not supposed to. Until the specialization situation is straightened out so that only vanilla fighters get mastery and above, it's fine to give him whatever the other fighter kits are getting).
Cannot dual-class (OR can dual-class, Thief only, but gets warrior HLA instead of thief HLA)


A possible work around for the weapon ability is to give them a once per day ability that summons a weapon type of their choice that has no sell value and only wizard slayers can use, that summons stronger weapons as the class advances. (note the weapons do NOT gain any actual bonuses, their to-hit quality is simply increased to by-pass requirements).

The only catch is making sure it can by-pass to-hit requirements and PFNW without being stopped by other protections.

Beridel

ZanathKariashi said:

Penalties -
Cannot be Gnome, Half-elf, or Elf
Cannot use any magical items.
Magic resistance applies to beneficial and hostile spells.
Healing received from magical sources is only 50% effective.

The class is supposed to be a wizard slayer, not a magic slayer. I should think the wizard slayer shouldn't haven't any downsides (or advantages) when dealing with divine magic. It would be very cool if the wizard slayer was only barred from using "arcane" magic items, not divine armor and weapons like Carsomyr.

ZanathKariashi

wizard slayer is a misnomer, it's called a Wizard Slayer since they're the most common and acceptable targets but their training is equally effective at killing ANY magic users.

Divine magic and Arcane magic are the same thing, they're both still raw magic. The only difference is in the manner it's accessed.


Also...there's no such thing as divine armor/weapons. All magical items require 2 Arcane spells to make. Imbue the Item (6th) and Permanency (8th), in addition to the spells needed to give the item whatever effect you're wanting. Imbue the item can be used to create wands or simple magical items, or weapons/armor up to +2, but anything else also requires Permanency.

So even if the item's primary function is a divine spell, being in the wizard slayer's possession would suppress the Imbue spell, and thus the items abilities as well.


And stuff like Carsomyr a Wizard slayer would never use anyway, since the powers of any Holy Sword are tied to the Paladin class itself, not the weapon, and in the hands of a non-paladin they only function as a generic +2 version of whatever kind of sword they are.

karnor00

ZanathKariashi said:

Also...there's no such thing as divine armor/weapons. All magical items require 2 Arcane spells to make. Imbue the Item (6th) and Permanency (8th), in addition to the spells needed to give the item whatever effect you're wanting. Imbue the item can be used to create wands or simple magical items, or weapons/armor up to +2, but anything else also requires Permanency.

Although I agree that there is no functional difference between divine and arcane magic (the only difference being the source of the magic), there are other ways for magical items to appear.

The method you mentioned is the only way for players to make magical items, and is how most of the more common magical items are made. But deities sometimes make magic items for followers - presumably they just create them via their will, although no specific method is mentioned. And some magical items (often artifacts) just become magical through events - the Hand of Vecna is magical simply because it was the hand of the hugely powerful Vecna.

Silence

I love the idea of more magic resistance. I think for me it's preferable to increased saves, which are already obtained by other classes (e.g. Paladins) and races (dwaves/halflings/gnomes). I also like the idea about penetrating protection spells with attacks too, as this is most befitting a 'wizard-slayer.'

I think even some of these suggested advantages would make a major difference. I don't think we need too many changes to rebalance the class. I don't want to face the prospect of so many crippling disadvantages. I think prohibiting certain races and dual-classing for instance is a little too far, and beneficial/non-beneficial magic resistance is a little too complicated. However, maybe there's a happy middle ground.

ZanathKariashi

Gods have access to both divine and arcane spells, and simply use spells themselves when creating items.



@Silence

Not so much complicated, that's just how it's supposed to work, and not just for wizard slayers.

BG1 had it mostly correct, except that creatures born with innate magic resistance can suppress it to allow beneficial spells through, and their own spells are never blocked even when it's up.

Characters like Monks who develop Magic resistance through mastery of their body and spirit also can suppress their magic resistance since it comes from their control over their body and spirit.

Wizard Slayers, MR gained from items, or from spells, cannot be lowered and the only way to turn it off is to remove the item or dismiss the spell.

Wizard Slayers can't do that because of the unnatural means they acquired magic resistance (below). They can learn to focus and concentrate it to achieve certain feats, but they can never suppress it or turn it off, that is a blessing though, as they're also immune to spells that lower magic resistance.

The easiest way would be to split magic resistance into two types, Beneficial and Harmful.

Creatures with natural MR such as drow or Monks have beneficial MR and doesn't check against spells cast by friendly targets. (is tracked separately and does not stack with Hostile magic resistance, which ever is highest is used)

And Hostile Magic resistance, which is the kind the items, spells, or the Wizard slayer have, that applies to all spells and effects. (is tracked separately and does not stack with beneficial magic resistance, which ever is highest is used)



And it's perfectly balanced. Magic is the most powerful force available, and wizard slayers are specially trained and modified to be an ultimate weapon to counter it, but it comes at the cost of them never being able to employ magic themselves.


At heart, they're still a fighter, but instead of needing magical armor or weapons to help them be stronger, they're more specialized. You generally just wear armor for it's protective benefits vs certain magical effects (AC is non-issue) or weapons because certain creatures are protected from certain kinds of weapons, but Wizard slayers have no need for any of that. This makes them slightly disadvantaged against mundane enemies vs that of a normal fighter using magical gear, but even a fully geared fighter can't hope to complete with a Wizard slayer of equal level when it comes to defeating casters or other magic using creatures.




For those wondering, wizard slayers are made through a complicated ritual that fuses a Nishiru and prospective Wizard Slayers souls together. The wizard slayer isn't so much dispelling magic, his soul is attempting to devour it outright, though the effect is dulled by their physical body, the net result being an attempt at dispelling it due to breaking down the component parts of the spell's magic. Their abilities growing stronger over time as the soul-meld becomes more stable.

Unlike a Nishiru though, the Wizard slayer can never heal by absorbing magic, since they're still a physical entity.




Gnomes, Elves, and Half-elves can't be wizard slayers due to being innately magical creatures and having an entity that devours magic implanted in their soul would be instantly fatal.

Even humans have a low success rate of surviving the ritual due having an affinity for magic.

Halflings, and especially Dwarves, however make excellent Wizard slayers, since their innate resistance magic actually helps the ritual go more smoothly and keep the nishiru's spirit under control.

ZanathKariashi

Of course there is another version of the Wizard Slayer class (I don't like this version at all though).


Same as fighter except-

Benefits -

Permanent Protection from evil.

Has a permanent detect illusion effect (as per the thief skill). Chance is equal to 5% per level, maximum of 100%.

Can cast know alignment at will.

Can cast detect magic at will.

Gains the ability to strike as if +1 at lvl 4 with any melee weapon. Bonus increases every 4 levels to a maximum of +5, only affects what they can hit, has no other combat bonuses. The wizard slayer's attacks can never be stopped by abilities that grant immunity to normal weapons.

Can destroy magical items to gain a personal xp bonus equal to 1/20 of it's market value.

Gains double xp when killing evil casters.

Penalties-
Must be Good
Must be Human
Cannot use ANY magical items.
If they receive effects from any beneficial spell, they lose all class abilities for 24 hours per class level.
Doesn't get specialization.
They go berserk (uncontrollable) in combat, if hostile casters are in LOS, attacking them with no regard for their own safety or tactics, until all hostile casters are slain.

kamuizin

Can i give a suggestion? Instead of improve, just revamp the class. Wizard Slayer isn't an weak class by far, a 100% spell failure by the way is insanely overpower, however play the entire game with only a armor and a weapon as magical items can be totally frustrating.


I would suggest some of the following changes, not all of them to be used, just suggestions to organize the kit:



Advantages:

-Each time a WS hit, there's a X% chance of dispel magic on hit (similar to @ZanathKariashi suggestion), This % can/should be improved per level.

- Get dispel magic spell alike ability of his level to use x times per day (based on level).

-Each time an enemy spellcaster take damage from an physical attack of a wizard slayer, he will receive a 10% chance of spell failure. These spell failure chances are cumulative but are limited to 5% maximum per WS level (yes, a lvl 1 ws only reach a 5% chance, but then if he can hit a spellcaster at level 1, the first hit probally will be fatal).

-Every time a Wizard Slayer suffer an magical effect he has a X% chance of auto-cast instant dispel magic of his level on itself/area centered on itself. This can be a bless or a curse (for the entire party even).

-Can invoke an anti-magic field at himself (same as using a protection from magic scroll) for 1 round per level at the cost of: damage taken, temporary stats loss (constitution preferable), speed decreased, armor class and Thac0 penality (the best from roleplay terms)...

-Get spell alike abilities to cast secret word (after reach level 7), breach (after reach level 9), Khelben's Warding Whip (after reach level 14.

Optional - Gain an extra one spell alike ability after each 5 levels from the one that started the ability.
Optional 2 - limit the number of each ability spell to a maximum of 3 no matter which level the character is.

-Naturally resistant to magic, effect (can be all of them or only some):

Always take 20-50% less damage from magical sources (should not stack with other items at 50% value)

Make any saving against magic with an +2 bonus. Enabled to make save against magics that normally allow no saving throw (maze, imprisonment, harm, power word spells...)

Hostile spells only endure half of their normal time on wizard slayers.

- gain special ability to erase an spellcaster spell from their book (or memory for priests) per hit for x rounds (based on level). Same as a Nishruu does.

Edit: - Start the game with 25% Mres. Get +2% Mres per level from level 1 to 10, +3%Mres from level 11 to 20.

Disadvantages:

- Thac0 progression of a Cleric or Thief, after all hit mages when their protections are down isn't a real problem.

- penality for dexterity. Wizard Slayers normally goes for melee, and mages without protection normally aren't the fastest personas in game.

- Can't dual class to mage (duhhh!)

- Can't dual class to anything besides thief (no class that have spells).

- Do not receive the fighter proficiency bonus for specialization, mastery or grandmastery, as they give up part of the fighter training to devote themselfs to learn how to counter spellcasters.

- Do not receive the Constitution bonus for fighters (as they do not engage many melee x melee combats, it's more hit fast and kill quickly the caster.

- give a chance to break any magical weapon in his hand (as an energy conflict between the magical weapon existance and the denying energy against magic emanating from the wizard slayers). The greater the level of the WS, the bigger is the chance of break the magical weapon. Artifact weapons wouldn't break, but could go useless of 1 to 3 days (taken off from the quickweapon slot and become unable to reequip for the amount set of days).

By another side, any normal weapon in the WS hands should be dealed as if magical, with the +x to hit based on the WS level (as it's done with monks). Of course normal weapons are breakable too.

Some of the WS advantages could/should be locked when using magical weapons.

- Any benefical spell or potion effect onto a WS should endure only half of the normal time.

- WS should roll saves against benefical spells even if they don't intent to resist them, as a form of their continuous opposition to magic energy.

- While the actual item restriction is abusive, some items in the game (many of them in fact) could/should be specific unable to be equiped by a wizard slayer.

- to direct target a WS with a spell, even when cast by a friend and is a positive spell, could/should trigger the auto-dispel magic ability from the advantages that could be on the WS only or area effect (nasty).

ZanathKariashi

The two I've mentioned are actual PnP kits, which means either is fine in my book. (though as mentioned I REALLY hate the one from Complete Barbarian)


The classes and kits shouldn't be about power-gaming anyway. They're roleplaying devices, nothing more. If people don't want to use the Wizard Slayer due to it's hefty restrictions, then by all means play something else, the class obviously isn't for you.


Of course that's also why pretty much all existing kits should be nerfed as well, most of them are completely lacking in the flavor they're actually supposed to have due to over-powered abilities, lack of penalties, or broken base mechanics.


I mean if you really get down to it, just swapping their spell-failure ability into a dispel on hit (caster lvl = class level) and allowing their attacks to by-pass combat protections, would be a massive buff to the class.


But as with most things, if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right...or at least that's my opinion on the matter.

sarevok57

I think the wizard slayer is fine the way it is, infact it was the first class I ever played in bg2 because I was like WOW, magic resistance that is so tight, since bg1 was so strict about having it, and I actually enjoyed my play though with him, I was kicking mage butt front, left and right, infact maybe my next play through im going to play one, just for nostalgia purposes

kamuizin

ZanathKariashi said:

The two I've mentioned are actual PnP kits, which means either is fine in my book. (though as mentioned I REALLY hate the one from Complete Barbarian)


The classes and kits shouldn't be about power-gaming anyway. They're roleplaying devices, nothing more. If people don't want to use the Wizard Slayer due to it's hefty restrictions, then by all means play something else, the class obviously isn't for you.


Of course that's also why pretty much all existing kits should be nerfed as well, most of them are completely lacking in the flavor they're actually supposed to have due to over-powered abilities, lack of penalties, or broken base mechanics.


I mean if you really get down to it, just swapping their spell-failure ability into a dispel on hit (caster lvl = class level) and allowing their attacks to by-pass combat protections, would be a massive buff to the class.


But as with most things, if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right...or at least that's my opinion on the matter.

Sometimes vanilla isn't the best or the right, if we're going to adapt the class to plataform PC game, some vanila issues can be a lot frustrating. The item restrictions in PnP can be totally worked around, in PC plataform game it means your character to be naked pratically from the begin to the end of the game.

ZanathKariashi

Yeah.............you need to re-evaluate what naked means. A monk starts the game naked...and spends basically all of the first game naked and nearly helpless with nothing really to show for it. You can use them in a support role, but they can't really start doing their thing proper until BG2.

A Wizard slayer is a fighter who simply never gets, nor ever needs, magical items. He's already a melee powerhouse due to being a fighter (or you could also get some training in bows, even though your abilities don't really work with them, as a back-up weapon), and can wear heavy armors. The main reason for using magical gear is the immunities it grants you or the ability to strike enemies. Which the Wizard slayer has no need for.

And you'd have several options to work with. If you used a shield, you could reach -6 AC with 18 dex and full plate, or single weapon style for -7. Or -5 and dual-wield or use a 2hder. That's all you really need. More AC helps, sure, but it's just not needed.

The Wizard slayer very quickly becomes effectively immune to all status effects, and his weapons can automatically hit enemies with hit-requirements. And because he dispels on hit and can by-pass combat protections, he doesn't need elemental damage or extra fancy little effects on his weapons. He is well compensate for only getting standard gear. He's already basically turning any weapon he wields into Carsomyr... (Carsomyrs damage bonuses aren't why people use that weapon..it's for the 50% MR, dispel on hit, and the ability to hit any enemy, which a wizard slayer basically has at lvl 1).

Overall he'll be SLIGHTLY less effective then a vanilla fighter vs non-magic using enemies, but the fact of the matter is..non-magic using enemies aren't a threat, nor is he any more inconvenienced against them then any other fighter would be.

Hell he could even kill Demi-liches, due to his Anti-magic shell ability doing basically the same thing as a PfM scroll + other benefits.

Sure, he can't be buffed at higher levels effectively, but that's right around the time he gets access to HLA and can easily compensate.


And no..there is no PnP work around for No magic items ever, no exceptions. It works the same in BG as it would in PnP. The only matter is ensuring that the weapons can by-pass the stuff they need to by-pass, and I've already included an idea for work around in the event that isn't currently possible.

Silence

I agree that gear is a fun and interesting part of the game and it's shame the wizard slayer is excluded from this. Additionally, disallowing all magical gear really is the major problem with the kit: it makes the WS weaker in combat and weaker at resisting magic spells/effects. In order to make this penalty a little more sensible, I'd suggest tweaking the magic resistance and granting one or two other abilities.

For me, this is not about creating a powerhouse kit. I simply want a kit to be true to its concept. An archer is the best with a bow, an assassin is the best with a knife in the back and a wizard slayer should be the best at fighting wizards.

@Saverok57: In BG2 and its expansion, the Wizard Slayer does start to pay off. By the time you reach very high levels, the magic resistance becomes helpful. However, I maintain the early/intermediate part of the game can be frustrating.

kamuizin

You're apparently missing a point here, Zak my friend, i'm not arguing about WS power (and i disagree with you about him being a power house as he is atm). The question is, much of the fun in the game, comes from how you equip your characters, and the fact a WS to not need equipments (another point that i disagree) doesn't meant we stay less frustrated by this fact.

By the way, the actual WS does not have anti magic shield so i didn't got your point with the demi-lich example.

The fact there are no PnP workaround to this issue... as i said before, the pc plataform game doesn't need to follow 100% the PnP rules, at the risk of spoil the compatibility of the class with the fantasy world made to be fun and balanced.

ZanathKariashi

I'm referring to the first version of the kit I mentioned, which is my preferred PnP version.

The current in-game WS is a POS implementation that shouldn't exist.


The issue is...there is no reason it SHOULDN'T work properly. The kit can be made to work exactly as it does in PnP, and does everything it's supposed to.

The thing is, there is NO reason for it not to.

If you get your jollies by equipping stuff, then any other kit in the game is for you.

If you just want a perfectly balanced, dedicated casterkiller, that can do it's job rain or shine, while still being able to perform a fighter's duties adquately,and don't want to have to deal with a paladin for Carsomyr/Purifier (most likely due to roleplaying reasons of running a non-Good party), or refuse to use any form of cheese (and thus excludes the current Inquisitor due to their dispel being incorrectly implemented and far FAR more powerful then it's supposed to be) the new wizard slayer is for you.


The wizard slayer is already excluded from equipping most magical items, this would simply be a correction to take it all the way to it's proper form, while giving them all their missing benefits and penalties.

And last time I checked, being able to free up gear to spread the love around was always a good thing.


I thought about allowing the Anti-magic shell once per day per 10 levels...but it does say they can only do it once per day due to the massive strain creating a hole in the weave puts on their body and soul.

(unlike a true anti-magic shell, which pushes magic out to create the hole, they absorb the surrounding magic at an extremely fast rate to create an area devoid of magic. The net result is functionally the same though).

Deefje

I'm playing the wizard slayer right now and I can agree it's relatively weak for a charname, though sicking 'm on a mage with boots of speed really disables them rather quickly. So you could say he does his job well.

I'm wondering though, even though I heard the term 'pnp wizard slayer' elsewhere on the boards as well, I can't find it in the 2e fighters handbook, nor with the all powerful google. Is there an actual pnp version of this class? Not that it really matters all that much to me whether BG is pure d&d, but I'm just curious.

In my head the wizard slayer would be fine if the magic resistance would be upped, perhaps some saving throws and freedom of movement.

If not, maybe detect invisibility/dispel magic as ability with True sight at higher level.

TurboTT

What annoys me is that monks gain 42% on lvl 14 and then 3% onwards.

As WS have max 40% at lvl 40, the monk will outrank him on lvl 14.

Silence

Yeah, even the monk beats him. I think most people find the low magic resistance is the biggest problem.

meagloth

Meagloth the great (sorcerer) thinks it should be nerfed, and they should all stop trying to slay me.

ZanathKariashi

@Deefje

One version is in the Complete book of barbarians (the 2nd version I posted up there).

The 1st version is from Spellbound. (it introduced several new powerful caster kits, but also included several flavors of caster-killers as well).

TurboTT

the sw gains little advantage early (bg:ee), since he will have about 6-9%.

Kouga

Because really, Wizard Slayers cannot use Carsomyr because it scoops evil in a magical fashion.........

ZanathKariashi

Wizard slayer's can't currently use Carsomyr because it's paladin only. And holy sword benefits are supposed to be a paladin class feature, instead of on the item itself.

recklessheart

To be frank the only thing I feel should be changed is their incapability to use magic items and equipment. I'll probably never play one either way, admittedly, but some other limitation would work better: perhaps preventing them from achieving mastery/grand mastery? They don't need to be superior to the base fighter: lord knows that plenty of currently implemented kits fail to meet the capabilities of their base model, but they have their own flavour which is what is important. It's just preferable that the flavour they have does not leave a bitter taste in the mouths of the players, which certainly the Wizard Slayer seems to do more than any other class kit.

ZanathKariashi

The main issue is, losing magical items IS the main flavor for wizard slayers, depending on which version you prefer they either lose it as a side effect of their abilities or lose it because they hate all things magical and refuse to wield them.


As for other kits, most kits actually do TOO MUCH.

The only kit that is perfectly implemented is the Wild Mage. There are a few that are pretty close, but there's just a lot of small things that bring them down..some of it not even the fault of the kits, but the underlying base mechanics.

kamuizin

ZanathKariashi said:

The main issue is, losing magical items IS the main flavor for wizard slayers, depending on which version you prefer they either lose it as a side effect of their abilities or lose it because they hate all things magical and refuse to wield them.


As for other kits, most kits actually do TOO MUCH.

The only kit that is perfectly implemented is the Wild Mage. There are a few that are pretty close, but there's just a lot of small things that bring them down..some of it not even the fault of the kits, but the underlying base mechanics.

So some normal items that give something should be created, cos... play the entire game with an empity gear is a bit annoying.

ZanathKariashi

They can't give anything because they're normal. That's kind of the point.

I mean, you might could make a suit of spiked full plate, that enemies striking at you in melee had to save at +4 or take 1d3 piercing damage from sticking themselves on the spikes, but due to their extra bulk and having to avoid sticking yourself, you suffer a -2 penalty to hit.

There is no disarm action, so there's no point for having a lock-grip gauntlet. Could put spikes on a gauntlet, but it would only apply to unarmed attacks, and be inferior to other weapons.

can't think of anything non-magical for a belt or boots to do. BG's list of possible actions is too limited.


Can't think of much for jewelry either. you could wear a garlic wreath around your neck to get a +2 ac bonus vs vampires, but at a cost of -4 charisma due to the stench.

Joey

Fun is more important to gameplay than a rigid adherence to PnP. Realistically a lot of people just don't want to castrate their protagonist by restricting themselves like that, so I'd agree with the above that for the wizard slayer to be truely playable it needs a different restriction.

ZanathKariashi

Then play something else.....no one is forcing you to play a wizard slayer if you dislike paying a high price for extremely potent abilities. If you don't like their fluff and penalties, then they're not for you, move along and play something else. It's the whole reason kits exist in the first place. Otherwise remove the class entirely and replace it with something else that is just a plain fighter with a different name.

Joey

...only in PnP. There's no reason a wizard slayer couldn't be disadvantaged instead by nerfing his Thac0, or his AC, or something.