They lose the extra thac0/damage/AC/abilities from magic equipment, and instead get a bunch of passive abilities related to killing casters, who are the only real threat in the game anyway. While they're slightly less effective then a plain fighter vs non-casters, nothing can beat them at anti-caster.
There is NOTHING disadvantaged about the PnP Wizard Slayer. And more so in BG due to casters being much more common and the most dangerous enemies.
The problem with the current BG WS is that they lose a lot, and gain nothing for it.
Any kit is a choice. If you like what kit stands for, you play it. If you don't, you don't. Simple as that. There's no reason for the WS to get any magical equipment at all, since the other choices already offer plenty of that. The WS being a more focused and specialized class, trading magic item use for the ability to kill casters better.
It sounds like you should just be playing an Inquisitor, honestly, if all you want is a anti-magic warrior who can use magic items. But then you have to be human, take longer to level, and deal with a code of conduct. And still wouldn't be as good at it as a PnP Wizard Slayer.
EIt sounds like you should just be playing an Inquisitor, honestly, if all you want is a anti-magic warrior who can use magic items. But then you have to be human, take longer to level, and deal with a code of conduct. And still wouldn't be as good at it as a PnP Wizard Slayer.
Do not forget on "Lawful stupid" penalty
Wizard Slayer powers in BG was always to laugh :-(
According to ToB's manual, they get an aditional 5% MR after 3 Million XP or after lvl20, I cannot remeber it soooo well, but it isn't a kit that needs more work nor nerfing.
EIt sounds like you should just be playing an Inquisitor, honestly, if all you want is a anti-magic warrior who can use magic items. But then you have to be human, take longer to level, and deal with a code of conduct. And still wouldn't be as good at it as a PnP Wizard Slayer.
Do not forget on "Lawful stupid" penalty
Wizard Slayer powers in BG was always to laugh :-(
Wizard Slayer would still be inferior to Paladin in terms of Magic Resistance, AND would be able to do something other than weild Caromsyr, AND would be able to get true Grand Mastery, AND wouldn't have penalising minimum stats AND wouldn't be restricted to humans.
I don't see why anyone should justify a class having a disadvantage that makes it unplayable to a huge amount of people, its PnP street-cred isn't relevent if no one wants to play it.
As it stands, Wizard Slayer is laughably underpowered.
I know not everyone likes powergaming, and a lot of people pick their characters/kits according to their roleplaying preferences, but that still doesn't change the fact that the WS is a remarkably 'weak' kit. It has its uses, but it's orders of magnitude weaker than some other kits.
I think that the wizard slayer suffers from losing too much useful equipment whilst simultaneously getting inadequate benefits. The magic resistance is too low to be reliable or useful and the attack is too contextual. To be good the wizard slayer has to be reliable and distinctive, effective against wizards but not immune to them.
The current WS is a trade off between the ability to use magic items and the ability to fight magic users. I think this should be taken a step further and the ability to use magic items removed entirely, including weapons and armour, in return for more general advantages.
For defence, rather than magic resistance which is low and slow to improve, the WS should instead get steadily increasing immunities to status debuffs as he gains levels. This would include friendly spells like haste.
For attack, although he can only use normal weapons, they should be treated as magical or non magical dependent on what is more effective against the enemy, able to hurt clay golems but also magic golems with the same weapon. To compensate for the lack of magical weapons he should get level based bonuses to weapon damage and chances to hit similar to a monk. Against mages he should strip combat protections with each strike.
The result should be a character which can use all fighter equipment, is less item dependent, is hard to disable and effective against mages and magical creatures, but due to no spell or item magic is relatively vulnerable to melee and spell damage. In this respect the kit could act as a form of light fighter, perhaps with stealth, which darts in and takes out high value targets rather than fighting toe to toe.
I was considering doing a role-play run where Charname grows up in Candlekeep reading of wizard slayers blah blah blah and wants to be a hero like them, only to discover the depth of magic on his journey, probably after meeting Irenicus, and dualing into a mage. Anyone ever done anything like this? Does it work? Can I use robes etc?
@ZanathKariashi if we're going to go for PnP let's make it PnP at least, cos WS class in BG ins't loyal to PnP.
1° - There's no WS kit in the Complete Fighter's HandBook of AD&D, i'm with it open here atm. 2° - The complete Barbarian's Handbook has a similar class to Wizard Slayer that has nothing to do with the BG wizard slayer, their stats are:
Alignment restriction: Only Good. Weapon Proficience: Shortbow required (don't ask me why) Special Benefits:
Advantages:
-Know alignment - unlimited but at melee's range touch. -Detect illusion - 2x per day, can reveal any illusion of any level. 75% chance of work. -Detect Magic - unlimited, 1 round concentration time. 25% chance of success +5% added per each level of the WS to a limit of 90% chance of success. Additionally if succeful the WS has a 50% chance of determine the alignment of the caster of the detected spell. -Attack Magical Creatures - A wizard Slayer can strike creatures normally immune to non-magical weapons. Any weapon he use count as: +1 at 4° level; +2 at 6° level; +3 at 8° level; +4 at 10° level; +5 at 12° level. This doesn't give the bonus as magical weapons would do, it only determine the magical hit level for immunity issues. - Experience bonus for destroying magical items - WS gain a bonus experience of 150% of any magical item experience value if he destroy it. - Experience bonus for slaying evil priests or wizards - WS get doubled xp points for destroying evil priests and wizards.
Disadvantages:
- No Magical Items - No magical item can be effectively used by an wizard slayer (not even armor or weapon). - No acceptance of magic - If a WS receive a magic spell without combating him (a buff from the wizard of the party for example), he loose all his abilities for 24 hours.
To resume: This class is a shit in PnP. But still THIS is the Vanilla class. What we have isn't even near the vanilla Wizard Slayer Barbarian (cos it's an Barbarian kit and NOT a fighter kit) of AD&D.
So, if we're going to respect vanilla, take of the Wizard Slayer we have and put this crap as an Barbarian kit in replace.
If that's not done then there's no reason to not adapt the Wizard Slayer to a better balanced and a more fun kit. PnP and vanilla arguments aren't plausible when what we have atm isn't even near the PnP Wizard Slayer.
@SwordsNotWords: A Wizard Slayer dual-classed to a mage can wear robes at any point, even if his level in the Mage class has exceeded his level in the Wizard Slayer class. Good news for you! However, a dual-class Wizard Slayer-Mage is always barred from using magic items (rings, amulets, etcetera), no matter what their Mage level is.
This is another disadvantage which is hard to understand. Normally you would expect the Wizard Slayer equipment restriction to take effect only when their Mage level exceeds their Wizard Slayer level. The logic is that all benefits of the Wizard Slayer kit (e.g. magic resistance) and all restrictions (e.g. magic items) should be applied to the character at the same time. But here, the Wizard Slayer is barred from magic items even though they gain no magic resistance - a penalty with no benefit!
I should point out that the Kensai suffers similar problem - they are barred from Armor at any point after dual-classing (penalty), even though they do not receive the unarmored AC bonus of -2 (benefit).
Other dual-class combinations appear to be implemented more logically. Clerics dual-classing to fighters, for example, are allowed to use slashing weapons until their fighter level exceeds their cleric level.
The first version of the kit I posted is from Spellbound (it added several powerful magic using and anti-magic kits (including Red Wizards, Hathran, and Wizard Slayers (and a couple reprints from other books like the Inquisitor and Undead Hunter)).
I agree the barbarian version is pretty horrible, though still better then the current wizard slayer (since they're still a barbarian fighter underneath it all with all the benefits (and penalties) that applies).
And the no magic items thing isn't actually a big deal when you consider barbarians (culture) get massive penalties and lose most abilities when using magical items anyway, and can instead gain bonus xp for destroying them and don't have to suffer penalties for using metal and/or magical weapons since any weapon they wield can bypass hit-requirements.
And unlike most non-caster barbarians, don't have to roll fear saves any time any mage spell or a divine spell over 3rd level is cast in their LOS, since they're familiar enough with magic that it doesn't frighten them (it has the opposite effect, they drop what they're doing and try to kill the caster to the exclusive of anything else).
-------------------------------------
As for the dual-class thing, it's the other way around.
You should ALWAYS be bound by oath or training restrictions, since you have to maintain your old skills while working on your new ones, or you lose all your old abilities completely.
Obviously if something is due to a lack of training rather then a restriction based on combat style or oaths, such as mages not knowing how to fight with swords, that's no problem, but something like a Kensai, their fighting style requires their restrictions and not keeping would cause them to forever lose all their kensai bonuses. Same with druids and clerics, for whatever their ethos disallows.
That's why I feel BG would be better if DCing were reworked, to a different method, so that your bonus/penalties are always available, but suffer a penalty for it, such as greatly reduced xp gains until your new class is higher, as a compromise for allowing you to use your abilities all the time. (I personally feel that a 75% reduced penalty would be perfectly acceptable (taking x3 more xp per level), but it could be even higher.)
Some people have said that would make DCing better....good...DC is currently worthless as duo multi-classes are superior in every way, at every stage of the game, with no penalties, unless you just have your heart set on playing a human. DC is already HEAVILY nerfed, and giving them this one little boon would help immensely to counter the ridiculous overpoweredness of Duo-class multi's (9-13 EXTRA HLA picks, from two pools, and still gets basically full class progression in both, with racial bonuses and easier to roll stats and absolutely no downsides due to race caps being removed? Yes please.
Why dual-class at all, the kits aren't worth it from a power standpoint, aside from broken ones like the berserker who are merely comparable and only if you spent all of BG 1 and a good chunk of early BG2 waiting to play it, and even then, it's only due to someone getting drunk off their $%#^ and throwing in a bunch of abilities with absolutely no thought given to balance or even trying to replicate the spirit of the source material).
the wizard slayer needs something to bypass all the munchkin npc protections that spring up on sight and the small amount of magic resist should be addressed too. maybe that would make its pro's balance the con of having no magical equipment other than weapon and armor.
I remember when my friend was playing BG2 back in the day with a mod that added spellcasting failure to projectile weapons. Claiming that it made him OP in mage fights and I was next to him thinking 'that doesn't even make sense!'
@ZanathKariashi: I don't require BG kits to be true to their PnP versions - most kits aren't even close. I do expect that BG kits to deliver on what's promised. A Dwarven Defender should be good at defending, a Shadowdancer should be great at keeping to the shadows and a Wizard Slayer should be good at slaying wizards (only they're not).
As for dual class rules- such a discussion is important but is best reserved for another thread. My point was that dual class rules are applied inconsistently. Some penalties immediately carry over to your second class immediately (e.g. kensai armour restrictions) whereas others do not (cleric weapon restrictions).
@BackgroundCharacter well... in that case, why have the part about not being able to use potions, belts ect at all? I know you mean as a HLA and that means at least mid way through BG2, but eventually there would be nogatives to the kit at all.
WS/thief has no negatives with UAI, but that dual class no longer grows as a WS so that's one downside.
The WS magic resistance progression per level is so useless that isn't even problematic to dual class at any level with him. 1% is ridiculous retard when monks receive 3% per level.
If the Devs want to keep the item limitation, at least introduce on the game WS usable items (not magical) and rework the skills of the class to make them better opponents to magic users.
@BackgroundCharacter well... in that case, why have the part about not being able to use potions, belts ect at all? I know you mean as a HLA and that means at least mid way through BG2, but eventually there would be nogatives to the kit at all.
WS/thief has no negatives with UAI, but that dual class no longer grows as a WS so that's one downside.
How about this
The WS can use any kind of weapon
But can only specialize ** in any weapon or style, also up the resistance more because 1% per level is pitiful
Fleshing out my previous suggestion for the Wizard Slayer.
Advantages: Spell effect immunities. Native weapon bonuses. Native bonuses to penetrate magical/non-magical defences. Strips a single combat protection or buff with each strike. Detect illusion.
Disadvantages: Only normal fighter items available. No magic items, or enchanted weapons and armour (perhaps excluding natural armours like Ankheg). Immune to buffs from potions and friendly spell casters with the exception of healing. 1D8 HD. Thief skills cannot be used in heavier than leather armour.
Weapon Progression:
5th level: Magical +1 to hit, 1-2 damage, -1 speed
10th level: Magical +2 to hit, 2-4 damage, -2 speed
15th level: Magical +3 to hit, 3-6 damage, -3 speed
20th level: Magical +4 to hit, 4-8 damage, -4 speed
25th level: Magical +5 to hit, 5-10 damage, -5 speed
Ability progression:
1st level: Strip a single spell combat protection or buff with each strike. Detect Illusion: +10% a level to level 10.
3rd level: Immune to Charm, Sleep
5th level: Immune to Slow, Haste
8th level: Immune to Hold, Paralysis,
11th level: Immune to Confusion, Fear
14th level: Immune to Stun, Feeblemind
17th level: Immune to Polymorph, Petrification
20th level: Immune to Ability Drain, Level Drain, Slay/Death
25th level: Immune to Maze, Imprisonment
This wizard slayer design contrasts reliability and solid, but not excellent, damage output with vulnerability. Weaker armour class, hit points and resistances mean that the WS has to take a more measured approach to battle. However once he has picked out the most high value targets, especially wizards, he can swoop in and take them out with great speed. Alternatively he can stand back and undermine their defences from a distance as more protected warriors take the heat. Either way, this WS is a lighter, more thoughtful, fighter.
Well, so does a change in this class is possible? After all, we have many nice suggestions here, but does this request is eligible to happen? Anyway, can @Dee and/or @Jaily foward this request among the devs? The & and number of votes says a lot about how the community feel with this class.
We consider every feature request. For obvious reasons, we don't implement all of them, but if it's here, it's generally a good bet that someone's looked at it.
My grief with the WS is not that they're underpowered, but the fact you lose so much of "doing stuff for shiny new loot" that makes a huge part of BG's fun factor for me.
Acquiring and distributing equipment amongst party members is too much fun to give it up (which is why I don't play monks or shapeshifters either).
Comments
They lose the extra thac0/damage/AC/abilities from magic equipment, and instead get a bunch of passive abilities related to killing casters, who are the only real threat in the game anyway. While they're slightly less effective then a plain fighter vs non-casters, nothing can beat them at anti-caster.
There is NOTHING disadvantaged about the PnP Wizard Slayer. And more so in BG due to casters being much more common and the most dangerous enemies.
The problem with the current BG WS is that they lose a lot, and gain nothing for it.
Any kit is a choice. If you like what kit stands for, you play it. If you don't, you don't. Simple as that. There's no reason for the WS to get any magical equipment at all, since the other choices already offer plenty of that. The WS being a more focused and specialized class, trading magic item use for the ability to kill casters better.
It sounds like you should just be playing an Inquisitor, honestly, if all you want is a anti-magic warrior who can use magic items. But then you have to be human, take longer to level, and deal with a code of conduct. And still wouldn't be as good at it as a PnP Wizard Slayer.
Wizard Slayer powers in BG was always to laugh :-(
I don't see why anyone should justify a class having a disadvantage that makes it unplayable to a huge amount of people, its PnP street-cred isn't relevent if no one wants to play it.
I know not everyone likes powergaming, and a lot of people pick their characters/kits according to their roleplaying preferences, but that still doesn't change the fact that the WS is a remarkably 'weak' kit. It has its uses, but it's orders of magnitude weaker than some other kits.
Buffing it a bit wouldn't be a bad idea.
Almost all kits are designed to be strong when are played correctly.
Wizard Slayer not.
Whether you use him for any style of playing, ALWAYS would be better to use someone else's.
Therefore is whole Wizard Slayer unnecessary.
The current WS is a trade off between the ability to use magic items and the ability to fight magic users. I think this should be taken a step further and the ability to use magic items removed entirely, including weapons and armour, in return for more general advantages.
For defence, rather than magic resistance which is low and slow to improve, the WS should instead get steadily increasing immunities to status debuffs as he gains levels. This would include friendly spells like haste.
For attack, although he can only use normal weapons, they should be treated as magical or non magical dependent on what is more effective against the enemy, able to hurt clay golems but also magic golems with the same weapon. To compensate for the lack of magical weapons he should get level based bonuses to weapon damage and chances to hit similar to a monk. Against mages he should strip combat protections with each strike.
The result should be a character which can use all fighter equipment, is less item dependent, is hard to disable and effective against mages and magical creatures, but due to no spell or item magic is relatively vulnerable to melee and spell damage. In this respect the kit could act as a form of light fighter, perhaps with stealth, which darts in and takes out high value targets rather than fighting toe to toe.
1° - There's no WS kit in the Complete Fighter's HandBook of AD&D, i'm with it open here atm.
2° - The complete Barbarian's Handbook has a similar class to Wizard Slayer that has nothing to do with the BG wizard slayer, their stats are:
Alignment restriction: Only Good.
Weapon Proficience: Shortbow required (don't ask me why)
Special Benefits:
Advantages:
-Know alignment - unlimited but at melee's range touch.
-Detect illusion - 2x per day, can reveal any illusion of any level. 75% chance of work.
-Detect Magic - unlimited, 1 round concentration time. 25% chance of success +5% added per each level of the WS to a limit of 90% chance of success.
Additionally if succeful the WS has a 50% chance of determine the alignment of the caster of the detected spell.
-Attack Magical Creatures - A wizard Slayer can strike creatures normally immune to non-magical weapons. Any weapon he use count as: +1 at 4° level; +2 at 6° level; +3 at 8° level; +4 at 10° level; +5 at 12° level. This doesn't give the bonus as magical weapons would do, it only determine the magical hit level for immunity issues.
- Experience bonus for destroying magical items - WS gain a bonus experience of 150% of any magical item experience value if he destroy it.
- Experience bonus for slaying evil priests or wizards - WS get doubled xp points for destroying evil priests and wizards.
Disadvantages:
- No Magical Items - No magical item can be effectively used by an wizard slayer (not even armor or weapon).
- No acceptance of magic - If a WS receive a magic spell without combating him (a buff from the wizard of the party for example), he loose all his abilities for 24 hours.
To resume: This class is a shit in PnP. But still THIS is the Vanilla class. What we have isn't even near the vanilla Wizard Slayer Barbarian (cos it's an Barbarian kit and NOT a fighter kit) of AD&D.
So, if we're going to respect vanilla, take of the Wizard Slayer we have and put this crap as an Barbarian kit in replace.
If that's not done then there's no reason to not adapt the Wizard Slayer to a better balanced and a more fun kit. PnP and vanilla arguments aren't plausible when what we have atm isn't even near the PnP Wizard Slayer.
This is another disadvantage which is hard to understand. Normally you would expect the Wizard Slayer equipment restriction to take effect only when their Mage level exceeds their Wizard Slayer level. The logic is that all benefits of the Wizard Slayer kit (e.g. magic resistance) and all restrictions (e.g. magic items) should be applied to the character at the same time. But here, the Wizard Slayer is barred from magic items even though they gain no magic resistance - a penalty with no benefit!
I should point out that the Kensai suffers similar problem - they are barred from Armor at any point after dual-classing (penalty), even though they do not receive the unarmored AC bonus of -2 (benefit).
Other dual-class combinations appear to be implemented more logically. Clerics dual-classing to fighters, for example, are allowed to use slashing weapons until their fighter level exceeds their cleric level.
I agree the barbarian version is pretty horrible, though still better then the current wizard slayer (since they're still a barbarian fighter underneath it all with all the benefits (and penalties) that applies).
And the no magic items thing isn't actually a big deal when you consider barbarians (culture) get massive penalties and lose most abilities when using magical items anyway, and can instead gain bonus xp for destroying them and don't have to suffer penalties for using metal and/or magical weapons since any weapon they wield can bypass hit-requirements.
And unlike most non-caster barbarians, don't have to roll fear saves any time any mage spell or a divine spell over 3rd level is cast in their LOS, since they're familiar enough with magic that it doesn't frighten them (it has the opposite effect, they drop what they're doing and try to kill the caster to the exclusive of anything else).
-------------------------------------
As for the dual-class thing, it's the other way around.
You should ALWAYS be bound by oath or training restrictions, since you have to maintain your old skills while working on your new ones, or you lose all your old abilities completely.
Obviously if something is due to a lack of training rather then a restriction based on combat style or oaths, such as mages not knowing how to fight with swords, that's no problem, but something like a Kensai, their fighting style requires their restrictions and not keeping would cause them to forever lose all their kensai bonuses. Same with druids and clerics, for whatever their ethos disallows.
That's why I feel BG would be better if DCing were reworked, to a different method, so that your bonus/penalties are always available, but suffer a penalty for it, such as greatly reduced xp gains until your new class is higher, as a compromise for allowing you to use your abilities all the time. (I personally feel that a 75% reduced penalty would be perfectly acceptable (taking x3 more xp per level), but it could be even higher.)
Some people have said that would make DCing better....good...DC is currently worthless as duo multi-classes are superior in every way, at every stage of the game, with no penalties, unless you just have your heart set on playing a human. DC is already HEAVILY nerfed, and giving them this one little boon would help immensely to counter the ridiculous overpoweredness of Duo-class multi's (9-13 EXTRA HLA picks, from two pools, and still gets basically full class progression in both, with racial bonuses and easier to roll stats and absolutely no downsides due to race caps being removed? Yes please.
Why dual-class at all, the kits aren't worth it from a power standpoint, aside from broken ones like the berserker who are merely comparable and only if you spent all of BG 1 and a good chunk of early BG2 waiting to play it, and even then, it's only due to someone getting drunk off their $%#^ and throwing in a bunch of abilities with absolutely no thought given to balance or even trying to replicate the spirit of the source material).
As for dual class rules- such a discussion is important but is best reserved for another thread. My point was that dual class rules are applied inconsistently. Some penalties immediately carry over to your second class immediately (e.g. kensai armour restrictions) whereas others do not (cleric weapon restrictions).
Let the WS use any kind of item
WS/thief has no negatives with UAI, but that dual class no longer grows as a WS so that's one downside.
If the Devs want to keep the item limitation, at least introduce on the game WS usable items (not magical) and rework the skills of the class to make them better opponents to magic users.
The WS can use any kind of weapon
But can only specialize ** in any weapon or style, also up the resistance more because 1% per level is pitiful
Advantages:
Spell effect immunities. Native weapon bonuses. Native bonuses to penetrate magical/non-magical defences. Strips a single combat protection or buff with each strike. Detect illusion.
Disadvantages:
Only normal fighter items available. No magic items, or enchanted weapons and armour (perhaps excluding natural armours like Ankheg). Immune to buffs from potions and friendly spell casters with the exception of healing. 1D8 HD. Thief skills cannot be used in heavier than leather armour.
Weapon Progression:
5th level: Magical +1 to hit, 1-2 damage, -1 speed
10th level: Magical +2 to hit, 2-4 damage, -2 speed
15th level: Magical +3 to hit, 3-6 damage, -3 speed
20th level: Magical +4 to hit, 4-8 damage, -4 speed
25th level: Magical +5 to hit, 5-10 damage, -5 speed
Ability progression:
1st level: Strip a single spell combat protection or buff with each strike.
Detect Illusion: +10% a level to level 10.
3rd level: Immune to Charm, Sleep
5th level: Immune to Slow, Haste
8th level: Immune to Hold, Paralysis,
11th level: Immune to Confusion, Fear
14th level: Immune to Stun, Feeblemind
17th level: Immune to Polymorph, Petrification
20th level: Immune to Ability Drain, Level Drain, Slay/Death
25th level: Immune to Maze, Imprisonment
This wizard slayer design contrasts reliability and solid, but not excellent, damage output with vulnerability. Weaker armour class, hit points and resistances mean that the WS has to take a more measured approach to battle. However once he has picked out the most high value targets, especially wizards, he can swoop in and take them out with great speed. Alternatively he can stand back and undermine their defences from a distance as more protected warriors take the heat. Either way, this WS is a lighter, more thoughtful, fighter.
(Of course, that's not a promise it will be done...)
Acquiring and distributing equipment amongst party members is too much fun to give it up (which is why I don't play monks or shapeshifters either).