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Dragon Disciple in BG2:EE

wampawampa Member Posts: 68
Ok, so in BG:EE, Sorcerers got a kit.

And it was cool. Dragon Disciple trades one casting of your level 1/2/3/4 spells per day in return for -2AC, 50% Fire Resistance, +1 con (which isn't really a big deal on mages), better hit dice, and the breath. Basically, a slightly less capable Sorcerer that compensates with slightly better natural defenses and a nifty ability. All in all, this is a fairly even trade in BG:EE, maybe even slightly in the favor of the Kit over the vanilla Sorcerer.

But with BG2:EE on the horizon, a lot of things change. In mid-late SoA and especially in ToB, AC becomes less and less important defensively - enemies with very low, even negative THAC0 and decent APR start to become common. The extra HP from those early levels might save you - from about one additional attack when enemies regularly hit for 20+ damage. And now you're not giving up just low-level spell slots, you're giving up an extra Time Stop or Improved Alacrity, Horrid Wilting or Power Word: Blind, etc.

In short - what is the Dragon Disciple going to get to compensate for the loss of those oh-so-incredible high-level spell slots? I hope it's something beyond further Fire Resistance/AC/Breath Weapon progression!



NordomghostowlSpaceInvaderDeltaslayerkamuizinEmpyrial
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Comments

  • SenashSenash Member Posts: 405
    Have to agree. True. I really want to start a playthorugh with the class, but only because I'm a veeery big fan of dragons. But everytime I start to give it more thought, I always end up saying: "Wait till they buff it!"

    The kit IS inferior to the regular sorcerer. At the start the bonus AC and breath weapon might come in handy, but later... Bonus CON basically worths s***t with the constitution cap for non-warrior classes. Breath weapon is only once per day, so unless you rest after each fight, I'm not sure it's worth it. If you're giving up one horrid wilting for it, it definetly doesn't... Fire res is very nice, but still...

    ... losing one spell per level... It seems too much.

    It has already been discussed, but I still do think the class needs some buff. Even if you leave the current abilities, they would be so much more on par with the simple sorcerer, if they would be able to cast more breath attack a day (say 1 breath/5-6 levels) and have some other, useful stat increase. Strenght fpr example or THAC0. If they have more HP and survivability, let them be able to actually do something in a melee fight. Then, if you'd stack them up woth Tenser's or other fighting buffs, they could actually worth something in a fight with Staff of the Ram.

    They are currently changing Shadowdancer in beta. I'm still hoping they will do the same with Dragon Disciple...

    DeltaslayerGawdzilla
  • dCLCpdCLCp Member Posts: 5
    I'm thinking there should be some kind of limited dragon transformation/summoning. As in bigger than a wyvern, but smaller than a full sized dragon. Outside only. Perhaps some increased apr/damage or less-limited breath attacks limited flying...

    Probably overly- wishful thinking but I can't think of anything that would make this a more viable class than that (what the hell kind of demi god umpteenth level pc with a class named something like "dragon disciple" wouldn't be able to at least transform into or summon some kind of actual dragon?)

    I'd pay $30 for that capability alone...

    NordombooinyoureyesDragonKinglolien
  • MadhaxMadhax Member Posts: 1,416
    When the kit was first introduced, I made a thread asking for strength boosts instead of superfluous CON and AC boosts: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/16547/dragon-disciples-and-stat-boosts/p1

    You may agree. Overall, though, I'm satisfied with the kit as it currently stands. Not every class or kit needs to be perfectly balanced, and the Dragon Disciple has powerful abilities and is dripping in flavor. I just finished my BGEE Disicple run, and it was one of my favorite playthroughs ever. I built him for melee, and by the end of the game he had 19 strength, swapped between the staff +3 and the Staff-Spear as needed, and had Stoneskin, Mirror image, Fireshield, and natural Draw Upon Holy Might for hilarious combat. It was great to lead the party with an arcane caster who could start a fight with a huge breath attack, which was relevant from start to finish in BGEE.

    The kit will most likely be less powerful than a regular sorcerer in BG2EE, and I'd like for my suggestions in the linked thread to be reconsidered by the developers, but as-is the kit is extremely fun and I'm more than content.

    etaglocbooinyoureyeselminstertypo_tilly
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    edited October 2013
    I'd rather love to see the dragon disciple follows more closely to its 3rd edition counterpart within the Tome And Blood supply book:

    - Hit Die increases, ranging from d4 to d6, d6 to d8, and finally from d8 to d10.
    - Natural claws and bite attacks. No more unconsciousness in a fist fight involving half-dragons!
    - Enlargement: The size of the dragon disciple increases one step, from Medium-size to Large. This enlargement also increases the damage dealt with their natural attacks, but it also comes with a penalty to AC. A dragon disciple would also grow wings, but that would be only a cosmetic change and thus can be disregarded in BG:EE.
    - Dragon Apotheosis: Immunity to sleep, paralysis and (in this case) fire. They would also gain infravision.

    This is a transformation kit after all. A dragon disciple should not excel in the arcana like other spellcasters, but in their dragon blood.

    enqenqbooinyoureyesIllustair
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    edited October 2013
    Just want to point out that there is already a half-dragon character that they can use, so they don't have to model anything new if they end up going for the half-dragon transformation.

    It would be nice to have a HLA where they can shapeshift into a half-dragon. There would be three options to pick from and when you have taken one, you can't take the others. Like the planetars and devas.

    1.) Red half dragon - Fire
    2.) Blue half dragon - Lightning
    3.) White half dragon - Cold

    And then when you shapeshift (Just like a druid) you would give up your arcane spells but gain a buff in melee and some special abilities that go well with the dragon you picked. Cone of cold (White), Chain lightning (Blue), Fireball (Red). They could like have 4-5 special abilities.

    They would also get a boost to resistance (Immune to their own element), AC, some % damage reduction and then improved health.

    We already got the half-dragon character in the game (IWD2) we know how everything works with shapeshifting including special abilities, resistances and so on. So it would be very possible, not to mention the Half-dragon doesn't look very big and wouldn't be so hard to navigate.

    Another possibility is that they add kits to the Dragon-Disciple where you can pick the colour you prefer. And then the bonuses you get will be different depending on the colour, when you hit a certain level (Like 13 for the shapeshifter) you'll automatically get the half-dragon form. And it would improve as you gain more levels, and you would be able to unlock HLA abilities for it when you get to that point in the game.

    KamigoroshiXerxesVIllustairGawdzilla
  • bdeonovicbdeonovic Member Posts: 86

    I'd rather love to see the dragon disciple follows more closely to its 3rd edition counterpart within the Tome And Blood supply book:

    - Hit Die increases, ranging from d4 to d6, d6 to d8, and finally from d8 to d10.
    - Natural claws and bite attacks. No more unconsciousness in a fist fight involving half-dragons!
    - Enlargement: The size of the dragon disciple increases one step, from Medium-size to Large. This enlargement also increases the damage dealt with their natural attacks, but it also comes with a penalty to AC. A dragon disciple would also grow wings, but that would be only a cosmetic change and thus can be disregarded in BG:EE.
    - Dragon Apotheosis: Immunity to sleep, paralysis and (in this case) fire. They would also gain infravision.

    This is a transformation kit after all. A dragon disciple should not excel in the arcana like other spellcasters, but in their dragon blood.

    Yes, I would love for them to get more cool unique abilities (I think increase in size and wings would be too difficult to implement...but the others for sure). I'd even take heavier penalties to their spellcasting if they could have cool abilities like a dragon.

  • wampawampa Member Posts: 68
    I admit I never really liked the third edition version of this class.

  • CoryNewbCoryNewb Member Posts: 1,330
    This thread leaves me hopeful for my dragon disciple in bg2. She is a blast to play on bg1, but the loss of spells would be a gut punch later on.

  • wampawampa Member Posts: 68
    edited October 2013
    I really wouldn't go the melee damage route, it pigeonholes the class far too much IMO. If we want to keep it more purely thematic, I guess I'd vote for continuing fire resistance, AC bonuses, and some specific immunities (fear, hold, sleep), and maybe some inherent magic resistance rather than going for a range of elemental resistances.

    I'm especially hesitant on the shapechange-into-a-dragon front because if a Sorcerer picks up Shapechange at 9th level, they already have some incredible shapeshifting options - and I don't think I've even mentioned the Slayer yet.

  • reedmilfamreedmilfam Member Posts: 2,808
    wampa said:



    There are lots of ways they could accomplish this:

    - Continue to add an AC bonus every few levels
    - Broader Damage resistances: 50% fire is nice, but what about lightning, cold, acid...
    - Better saving throws: Give them another +1 CON later, then give them the CON-dependent saving throw bonus the short races get at some level.
    - Breath Weapon: Increase damage, DEFINITELY add a saving throw penalty (assuming there is a saving throw against it), uses/day - perhaps add multiple damage types, maybe in conjunction with getting new elemental resistances.
    - Status Effect immunities: Immunity to Fear, at least, looks like a no-brainer.

    Some of these might be a bit OP, but I would like one thing to happen: DD be based on alignment (choice of dragon path determines type of breath weapon). For good, you'd have the metallic dragons, evil has the colors. I forget if Neutral had one. I just think it would make sense, but maybe not... I guess I just want some variance.

    jackjackbooinyoureyes
  • wampawampa Member Posts: 68

    wampa said:



    There are lots of ways they could accomplish this:

    - Continue to add an AC bonus every few levels
    - Broader Damage resistances: 50% fire is nice, but what about lightning, cold, acid...
    - Better saving throws: Give them another +1 CON later, then give them the CON-dependent saving throw bonus the short races get at some level.
    - Breath Weapon: Increase damage, DEFINITELY add a saving throw penalty (assuming there is a saving throw against it), uses/day - perhaps add multiple damage types, maybe in conjunction with getting new elemental resistances.
    - Status Effect immunities: Immunity to Fear, at least, looks like a no-brainer.

    Some of these might be a bit OP, but I would like one thing to happen: DD be based on alignment (choice of dragon path determines type of breath weapon). For good, you'd have the metallic dragons, evil has the colors. I forget if Neutral had one. I just think it would make sense, but maybe not... I guess I just want some variance.
    When you put them all in a list, they DO look powerful. But a single casting of the 8th level spell Protection from Energy provides more resistance to a broader range of damage sources. The 7th level equivalent, Protection from the Elements provides stronger protection as well (but no acid resistance). A single casting of Spirit Armor + Blur would drop the mage an effective 6 AC bonus (over what's possible with the best possible e equipment in BG2) and provide a saving throw bonus as well. A single delayed blast fireball or ADHW is stronger than the 1x/day breath weapon. And so on.

    What I suggest provides strong passive bonuses, but the loss of high level spell slots mandates something equivalent in exchange.

  • JoeyJoey Member Posts: 201
    edited October 2013
    It seems like I've gotten a good deal of the way through BG1 without realising that the Dragon Disciple can cast one spell less than the sorcerer per level - the in-game description only mentions how many they can learn.

    I am genuinely quite annoyed at that lol. That's my entire weekend gone up in smoke.

  • SenashSenash Member Posts: 405
    OK, after reading this thread and checking again the exact abilites a Dragon Disciple has, here are my clarified thoughts:
    First of all, @wampa, you mentioned 50% fire res many times. I might have misunderstood you, but the class caps at 100% fire res at level 16.

    Overall, the DD gets the following bonuses at lvl 20:
    +2 CON
    -5 AC
    100% fire res
    1/day 8d8 fire breath (no save if I am correct?)
    +HP: approx +10 if you are playing on core or higher, and +20 if u max it out (maxed out: Sorc: 50, DD:70)

    For these bonuses, you give up 9(!) spellslots. (As said before: 1Time Stop, 1 AbiDalzim, 1 Chain Lightning...)

    If you also consider that the CON bonus is almost irrelevant (as you have +CON tomes in the game, and with a sorcerer is easy to have 16 con anyway), I don't think the bonuses worth the lost spells (most of us already agree on that)

    I think there's two directions in which the class could be buffed:
    1. The melee caster:
    -Give him some STR bonus (it fits the dragon blood backstory)
    -Some other resistance: I would say 5-10% magic (and maybe physical) resistance due to having more durable skin.
    -A DRAGON FORM: further bonuses to AC, THAC0, STR, HP and magic res. Immunity to fear, hold, charm etc. Gains more and stronger breath attacks (2-3, same number of dices as regular breath attack, but with d10 instead of d8). Only 1/day, possibly winded after using it. Cannot cast spells.

    2. Caster with draconic abilities.
    -More Breath Attacks per day and further increasing damage
    I say +1 every 5 lvls, capping at 4 or 5. Damage should increase every 2 lvls instead of 3, but start with 2d8 at lvl2. Final damage in BGEE (lvl9) would stay the same, by the end of ToB it would be 16d8 (lvl31 ToB xp cap) instead of 12d8. Compared to the Dragon's Breath spell (20d10) it's still not that much to break the game...
    -Some kind of charm 1/day (like dominate mind for example).
    -Some other ability like Fire aoe around the caster or summon a small drake.
    -Maybe bonus dmg to fire spells, but I doubt it could be done in this game.

    My personal choice however would be a mix of the 2:
    - More and stronger BREATH ATTACKs (as elaborated above)
    - Magic resistance would be lovely! 5% at lvl 20, +5% at 24 and 28 (15%). These are coming after the fire res which has been maxed out at lvl16 (and which was also every 4 lvls).
    - Keep the AC coming: -1 at lvl25 and 30, but switch the lvl15 CON bonus to STR and also give +1 STR OR DEX at lvl25.
    - Give the class a DRAGON FORM, 1/day, or as a HLA.

    What do you guys think?

    wampamagpiebooinyoureyesDeltaslayer
  • Dalis918Dalis918 Member Posts: 37
    edited October 2013
    To be honest, with meta knowledge, I like the stat bonus. Think about it, you get two points of con from the class, one from BG tome and one from BG2 Watcher's Keep. That's four points in total you can alocate elsewhere. Say strength or Dexterity. Since you get 1d6 hitpoints, you're technically getting the max hp per level a sorcerer can actually get so if you plan your stats ahead and set it at 12, by the time you finish the game you'll have a con of 16, since hp gain from con is retro-active you lose nothing in the long run and gain four extra stat points you can place elsewhere.

    example 18 18 12 10 10 10 (78 stat points) would be easily feasible to roll at least, and would mean that end-game you'd end up with 20 20 16 12 14 12 (not including hell trials buffs since that depends on choices)
    If you do what I do and tend to roll until you hit 90 then you can have 18 18 12 15 12 15 (20 20 16 17 16 17)
    Nicely balanced stats that'll mean you have a very intelligent, (technically) well adjusted and charming character.

    The kit is balanced for what it's 'intended' role is, which in essence is magic knight thing. With the right spell selection you'll have a powerful one hit wonder that can suit almost any fight, you're up against undead? Phantom Blade. Everything else? Black Blade of Disaster. Clay Golems? Beat it to death with a nifty quarterstaff, need a caster rather than a front line fighter? got that covered too.

    I'm afraid that people going "ooh but I don't want to play my dd like that" are really playing the wrong kit, if you want to play something overpowered, either use import/export exploit to get all your stats to 25 or use a save game editor.

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    edited October 2013
    Personally, I'm not a fan of the thought to give dragon disciples shapeshifting kit abilities of any kind. While true dragons posses a racial polymorph ability which lets them assume humanoid forms, half-dragons do not have such abilities... let alone the powers to shift into a full blooded dragon.

    However, there exist a most interesting official article on the WotC site called Transformational Prestige Class Epic Progressions, which gives insights of the epic levels of dragon disciples. To put it simple, the epic dragon disciple basically becomes a dragon himself/herself: d12 Hit Die, spell resistance, further enlargements up to collossal size, tail growth and a natural tail attack, wing slam attack, blindsight, as well as further breath weapon damage and uses/day increases.

    On a side note, there also exist a fascinating, fan written, and mostly unofficial AD&D rules supplement book called The Complete Half-Dragon's Handbook out there. Within this book lies many great ideas for making the dragon disciple more... dragon-like... as well. No doubt a worthy read for dragon lovers.

    Senash
  • SenashSenash Member Posts: 405
    Dalis918 said:

    Think about it, you get two points of con from the class, one from BG tome and one from BG2 Watcher's Keep. That's four points in total you can alocate elsewhere. Say strength or Dexterity.

    True, but in this case you would be playing through the whole BGEE (and a decent part of BG2 too) without bonus HP from constitution.

  • wampawampa Member Posts: 68
    Joey said:

    It seems like I've gotten a good deal of the way through BG1 without realising that the Dragon Disciple can cast one spell less than the sorcerer per level - the in-game description only mentions how many they can learn.

    I am genuinely quite annoyed at that lol. That's my entire weekend gone up in smoke.

    If the DD could LEARN one less spell per level than the Sorcerer, I wouldn't touch the kit with a 10' pole. It's actually much better that they can CAST one spell less per level than it would be if they could LEARN one less spell per level - that'd cut too deeply into the incredible flexibility the Sorcerer offers.
    Senash said:

    OK, after reading this thread and checking again the exact abilites a Dragon Disciple has, here are my clarified thoughts:
    First of all, @wampa, you mentioned 50% fire res many times. I might have misunderstood you, but the class caps at 100% fire res at level 16.

    Overall, the DD gets the following bonuses at lvl 20:
    +2 CON
    -5 AC
    100% fire res
    1/day 8d8 fire breath (no save if I am correct?)
    +HP: approx +10 if you are playing on core or higher, and +20 if u max it out (maxed out: Sorc: 50, DD:70)

    For these bonuses, you give up 9(!) spellslots. (As said before: 1Time Stop, 1 AbiDalzim, 1 Chain Lightning...)

    If you also consider that the CON bonus is almost irrelevant (as you have +CON tomes in the game, and with a sorcerer is easy to have 16 con anyway), I don't think the bonuses worth the lost spells (most of us already agree on that)

    I think there's two directions in which the class could be buffed:
    1. The melee caster:
    -Give him some STR bonus (it fits the dragon blood backstory)
    -Some other resistance: I would say 5-10% magic (and maybe physical) resistance due to having more durable skin.
    -A DRAGON FORM: further bonuses to AC, THAC0, STR, HP and magic res. Immunity to fear, hold, charm etc. Gains more and stronger breath attacks (2-3, same number of dices as regular breath attack, but with d10 instead of d8). Only 1/day, possibly winded after using it. Cannot cast spells.

    2. Caster with draconic abilities.
    -More Breath Attacks per day and further increasing damage
    I say +1 every 5 lvls, capping at 4 or 5. Damage should increase every 2 lvls instead of 3, but start with 2d8 at lvl2. Final damage in BGEE (lvl9) would stay the same, by the end of ToB it would be 16d8 (lvl31 ToB xp cap) instead of 12d8. Compared to the Dragon's Breath spell (20d10) it's still not that much to break the game...
    -Some kind of charm 1/day (like dominate mind for example).
    -Some other ability like Fire aoe around the caster or summon a small drake.
    -Maybe bonus dmg to fire spells, but I doubt it could be done in this game.

    My personal choice however would be a mix of the 2:
    - More and stronger BREATH ATTACKs (as elaborated above)
    - Magic resistance would be lovely! 5% at lvl 20, +5% at 24 and 28 (15%). These are coming after the fire res which has been maxed out at lvl16 (and which was also every 4 lvls).
    - Keep the AC coming: -1 at lvl25 and 30, but switch the lvl15 CON bonus to STR and also give +1 STR OR DEX at lvl25.
    - Give the class a DRAGON FORM, 1/day, or as a HLA.

    What do you guys think?

    I honestly hadn't really looked into the progression charts past the BG:EE exp. cap and was extrapolating from their level 9 abilities. And yeah, the bonuses aren't really worth the lost spells. I'm pretty strongly inclined to agree with your personal choice - style-wise, though I have some minor differences of opinion on degree and implementation.

    Since it seems unlikely they'll branch out into other elemental damage protections, I guess I'd go this route:

    1) CON-dependent saving throw bonuses that the short races get - this makes that +2 CON a lot more meaningful and helps them vs. a number of negative effects. (I'd keep the CON boosts as they are)
    2) Immunity to Fear. This is a no-brainer, really, and fits with the flavor of the class.
    3) Significantly stronger breath weapon, as noted by @Senash. I'd also add in some kind of saving throw penalty for the higher-level versions of the ability, assuming it does in fact allow a saving throw (which I believe it does.) Also, give an extra use per day at level 12 and level 22.
    4) Magic Resistance is a good option. I'd probably go with 10% per 4 levels rather than 5% though - most of the best Arcane caster items aren't heavy on the +Magic Resist. With AoP/Vecna/Gaxx you're looking at +25% from items - and thats only if you decide to forgo one of the spellcasting rings for Gaxx, and that's a BIG if considering Gaxx's utility on a pure fighter-type.
    5) Keep the AC boosts coming.

    I'm really not a fan of Dragon transformation - too many maps where that could cause serious headaches.

  • SenashSenash Member Posts: 405
    @wampa I'm just trying not to make the bonuses too much.
    Immunity to fear does sound ok, I've been thinking about putting that in too.
    I'd still say that 30% magic res, plus bonus from items and the possible bonus from Hell (good way leads to +10% magic res) might be a bit too much. But as long as it stays under Wizard Slayer and Monk, it might be ok.
    However, if DD would have +saving throws from CON, +30% magic res, 100% fire res and all that AC bonus... If you top that with Stoneskin, other spells and bonuses the mainchar gets (Good bonuses in Hell again), IMO they would be almost indestructible.
    As for the Dragon transformation: as I said, I reeeeally love dragons :)

  • ghostowlghostowl Member Posts: 171
    1. Dragon Form would be a great idea. Maybe a Wyvern form at lower levels. Or summon a dragon spell

    2. Immunity to fear, yes

    3. Dragonesque spells. Wing buffet. Or maybe a special dragon breath.

    4. More fire spells. Triple fireball in one fireball. Or a blue fireball

    5. Giving Dragon Disciple a "fire claw" innate that would rise in thaco + damage + fire damage as you level up would make this sorcerer class an interesting melee option that could be a different flavor than a mage/fighter dual.

    booinyoureyes
  • reedmilfamreedmilfam Member Posts: 2,808
    wampa said:

    When you put them all in a list, they DO look powerful. But a single casting of the 8th level spell Protection from Energy provides more resistance to a broader range of damage sources. The 7th level equivalent, Protection from the Elements provides stronger protection as well (but no acid resistance). A single casting of Spirit Armor + Blur would drop the mage an effective 6 AC bonus (over what's possible with the best possible e equipment in BG2) and provide a saving throw bonus as well. A single delayed blast fireball or ADHW is stronger than the 1x/day breath weapon. And so on.

    What I suggest provides strong passive bonuses, but the loss of high level spell slots mandates something equivalent in exchange.

    Maybe; I think having them active all the time is a bit much. It's just my opinion; I still would love the ability to follow other dragons (not just red) with the DD's discipling.

  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    Personally, rather than a straight strength boost I would like a slightly better THAC0 progression or passive boost to benefit both their melee and MMM/ranged capabilities. I admit that's not really keeping with the dragon theme, though.

    Other than that, I like the ideas that have been proposed - more elemental resistances and/or magic resistance and/or saving throw bonuses.

    Senashbooinyoureyes
  • wampawampa Member Posts: 68
    edited October 2013
    Senash said:

    @wampa I'm just trying not to make the bonuses too much.
    Immunity to fear does sound ok, I've been thinking about putting that in too.
    I'd still say that 30% magic res, plus bonus from items and the possible bonus from Hell (good way leads to +10% magic res) might be a bit too much. But as long as it stays under Wizard Slayer and Monk, it might be ok.
    However, if DD would have +saving throws from CON, +30% magic res, 100% fire res and all that AC bonus... If you top that with Stoneskin, other spells and bonuses the mainchar gets (Good bonuses in Hell again), IMO they would be almost indestructible.
    As for the Dragon transformation: as I said, I reeeeally love dragons :)

    I forgot about the potential +resist bonus in Hell. Maybe ditch the magic resistance idea, then.

    Still, continued AC progression, Fear immunity, saving throw bonuses, and improved damage / uses on Breath Weapon, might make playing a Disciple worth it.

    As is though, it's looking like my first EE trilogy run is going to be with a vanilla Sorcerer.

  • artificial_sunlightartificial_sunlight Member Posts: 601
    I agree on making different DD for Evil good and neutral.
    -Black/green Dragon (Chromatic dragons are evil, acid/poisondamage/resistance),
    -Amethyst Dragon (Gem Dragons are Neutral, Sonic damage (like ring of the ram) hold/stun resistance),
    -Silver dragon (metallic dragons are good, Cold damage/resistance

    And the con can be used to gain regenaration, Right?!

    booinyoureyes
  • SenashSenash Member Posts: 405
    @artficial_sunlight Making different colour DDs with different abilities sounds good for me too, but I believe it would be quite a lot of work for the developers. Also, there are a lot of dragon types with very different abilities. Which one to choose? Matching them with alignments would be quite restrictive RP wise.

    CON does give regeneration, but only from 20 and above. And the general oppinion is that it does not wirth it to go to such high levels with non-warrior classes, because the points between 160 and 20 give you nothing. The regen is also only 1HP/60sec, so it's quite redundant in combat (You would heal 1 or 2 HPs tops during a fight)

    @nano THAC0 bonus: damn, I had that in mind too, but forgot about it! Yes I'd absolutely like to see that! I'd say +3-4 all in all should be ok, just to let them be on the same THAC0 level as thieves. Maybe at lvl 10, 20 and 30? Or better 5, 10, 15, 20 and stop progression at lvl 20.

  • magpiemagpie Member Posts: 79
    While different colors of DD is cute, it doesn't add *that* much to the kit overall and won't make it any better.

    At the moment the DD is ok-ish flavor wise (though only the breath gives anything tangible `dragon' to the kit and being a bhaal spawn is generally cooler than having some reptile DNA anyway :P ), and kind of weak from a mechanical standpoint (as in, not different in an interesting way).

    Of the new kits, it's definitely the worst. Blackguard and the Monk kits are ok, and shadow dancer might not be a power house (especially with the upcoming backstab nerf for BG1), but at least allows some interesting new tricks.

  • AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 714
    Add additional uses of the breath attack while leveling as replacement for lost spell slots
    Increase the damage of the breath attack to, say, up to15d8.

    Voila, fixed.

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    It's a shame that the Shadowdancer was the only kit which received new HLA additions in BG2:EE. The Dragon Disciple really needs special HLA's on its own as well. And with that I mean HLA's that don't center around spellcasting, but strengthens their draconic bodies instead.

    booinyoureyesFhtbt
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