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Dragon Disciple in BG2:EE

13

Comments

  • DrEastDrEast Member Posts: 113
    At that point we're back to the "kill more" level. I was referring more to the early levels, where a fireball or three will handle most things.

  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    I think their casting ability is fine. The number of casts a DD gets is on par with or better than an unkitted mage's. If you don't feel gimped with the number of casts a fighter>mage or thief>mage gets, then you shouldn't feel gimped with the DD. Dragon Disciples get sorcerer casting too, making them more versatile than mages. It's only because they're placed next to the sorcerer that they look unexceptional. If it was classified as a mage kit it'd be amazing.

    That said I think they should have be able to get an upgraded version of the Dragon Breath HLA, kind of like how druids get an upgraded version of Elemental Summoning.

    wizzywazzo
  • GamingFreakGamingFreak Member Posts: 639
    like I said before, only problem with the RDD is that he gets less spells per day in exchange for a breath weapon that can only be used once before resting. That's beyond lame. Now if they got an additional use every 4-5 levels or something like that, it would have been better, but that's not the case.

    magpiewizzywazzo
  • AnterosAnteros Member Posts: 37
    I don't have any problem with the DD's spellcasting. It's the fact that they're played just like a basic sorcerer that annoy me. As they're are, they're as pointless as the cleric kits. At least the mage, fighter and rogue kits change the way you play the classes and improve the game's replayability. The DD fails completely in that aspect.

    It would have been better if the breath weapon had been rapidly cast, DD only spells. That way, everytime the DD reach a new spell level they would gain a more powerful breath weapon that they could use with their spell slots, that way they could be played as frontline spellcasters, giving a purpose to their AC and Constitution bonuses.

    Or they could have been given a bonus to thac0 to compensate for their lessened endurance as spellcasters.

    magpieSCARY_WIZARD
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,684
    Well, all this time and no Dev manifestated about this issue yet? @LiamEsler, @DavidW, so any rework for this class to adapt them to BG2:EE?

    My 2 cents, if the level 9 arcane spell isn't touched, i don't mind lose one cast of each previous level before 9 to get the Dragon Disciple bonus.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,207
    Yeaaaa thread necro!

    I'm playing a Dragon Disciple in BG2EE and really enjoying it (I played through as one back in BGEE awhile back and just picked up the character again). Anyone else playing one?

    jackjackCrevsDaakelementThrasymachus
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    I'm planning to play one after the 1.3 patch goes live... whenever that will be. Of course, that playthrough will be accompanied with @Aquadrizzt‌ most spectacular Tome and Blood: More Options for Wizards and Sorcerers mod. Just take a look at his take on the Dragon Disciple kit!


    Dragon Disciple [Red Dragon]

    Alignment: Any chaotic or any evil
    Race: Human, Half-Elf, Elf
    Abilities: CON 12, INT 12

    Features
    - Gains a +1 bonus to Armor Class.
    - Receives +1 hit point per level.
    - Claws: unarmed attacks deal 2d4 slashing damage.
    -- (5th) Claws are considered +1 magic weapons.
    -- (7th) Claws deal 2d6 slashing damage.
    -- (11th) Claws deal 2d6 slashing and d6 fire damage.
    - (3rd) Gains 10% bonus to fire resistance and a +1 bonus to Armor Class.
    - (9th) Breath Weapon: (1/day) 30 ft cone, deals d6/2 levels fire damage with a save vs. breath for half damage. Additional uses gained at 15th and 20th.
    - (15th) Gains 25% bonus to fire resistance and a +1 bonus to Armor Class.
    - (20th) Gains immunity to paralysis, stun, sleep and +50% resistance to fire damage.

    Bloodline Spells
    - 1st: Armor
    - 2nd: Resist Energy
    - 3rd: Haste
    - 4th: Emotion
    - 5th: Magic Resistance
    - 6th: Wyvern Call
    - 7th: Delayed Blast Fireball
    - 8th: Protection from Energy
    - 9th: Wish


    *drools*

    Now that's how a transformational kit should look like! :D

    jackjackelminsterSCARY_WIZARD
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    I'm rolling one as I write this, I'm pretty sure it's going to be a lot of fun and I don't think it is as bad as some people make it look.

    I have ran a Dragon Disciple and a vanilla Sorcerer in the Black Pits together and I have found no differences. Basically, the fights are over before the Dragon Disciple run out of spell, and with Mirror Image / Stoneskin and the like, it doesnt really feel more tanky.

    elminster
  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    edited May 2014
    the dd was lack lustre to say the least imo.

    I played him in my second run through and too much of the time he just felt like a crap sorcerer. Although that run was just a disaster considering how many bugs I got stuck with so I may be slightly jaded. That said I liked him a lot more in bg1ee he felt a lot better mechanically in that game

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,207
    In my experience the lack of a spell each level only really makes any difference at the first level you get access to a new level of spells. Even then with the ring of wizardry I haven't really noticed much of a difference either way. I do like the breath attack though. Very handy in mage fights. I kind of have to wonder what they were thinking by not allowing you to get more than one of them.

    jackjackKamigoroshi
  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    edited May 2014
    yes I completely agree with that, a few castings per day would do a lot for them both mechanically and flavour wise

    Post edited by element on
    CrevsDaakjackjackelminsterKamigoroshi
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,207
    edited May 2014
    Yea I mean it basically does the same average damage as a skull trap (assuming the skull trap fails its saving throw). So I don't really see why they felt it should be as restricted as it is.

    jackjackelement
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    they are probably the second best class in the game, after the sorcerer.
    But their problem is that they are clearly mechanically inferior to them.

    HP bonus is nice but i prefer 1 extra cast of mirror image/stoneskin/PFMW
    AC bonus : same as above
    Fire breath : quite OK for early BG. But as soon as the sorc gets acess to decent DD spell (level 6), it's completely useless (1 extra skull trap, 1 extra ADHW,...)
    CON boost : useless
    fire resistance : again, nice but can be easily duplicated by 1 spell (prot from elements for example)

  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,431

    I'm planning to play one after the 1.3 patch goes live... whenever that will be. Of course, that playthrough will be accompanied with @Aquadrizzt‌ most spectacular Tome and Blood: More Options for Wizards and Sorcerers mod. Just take a look at his take on the Dragon Disciple kit!

    Now that's how a transformational kit should look like! :D

    This times a bajillion, kthx
    Great, now I'm all excited again. Like a kitten who wants someth...aaand here come the tears.

    But yeah, in defense of the Dev Team, they were probably trying to make it as true to the Dragon Disciple Prestige Class as possible. I like it, but it'd be pretty cool if we got to choose what colour Dragon we're channelling. :D Or if we got bites/claws that counted as magic weapons...? That'd be sort of hard to justify, what with a Sorcerer preferably staying far out of melee. :S Maybe as an HLA give us Dragon Apotheosis?

    elminster
  • ElrandirElrandir Member Posts: 1,653
    To answer the original post... Flavour.

    CrevsDaakjackjack
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    It isn't as dark as you may think.

    Of course 1 more Stoneskin / PfMW is better than 20 more HP or 5 AC, BUT, you have to cast these spells, and you can only cast one spell per round. With Spirit Armor + Blur + Improved Invisibility, the Dragon Disciple is going to reach an AC so low, he won't be hit by anything except a critical hit most of the time, which means he won't need the extra Stoneskin or Mirror Image or PfMW, in this example. He could cast another offensive spell instead.

    The Dragon Breath ability is pretty powerful because it ignore magic resistance (thanks to @elminster‌ for the fix for BG2:EE) which means it can serve a very powerful niche ability. And while the damage seems low, remember others aoe damaging spells allow a save for half damage which is often made.

    Wanted to toast some golems ? Now you can.

    The bonus HP makes you more resilient to Power Words which is pretty cool.

    And at last, when you will reach the level 14, take Project Image, and you will never run out of spell anymore, even with -1 spells per day.

    jackjackCrevsDaak
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited May 2014
    I vote for it to be changed to Dragon Disciple (as in, you choose what kind of dragon you're disciple of) with different breath weapons and immunities but otherwise, it should stay as it is.

    I so want to make a Chaotic Evil (Half) Elven Female Red Dragon Disciple on my next playthrough.
    My other one was the polar opposite. A Lawful Good Male Paladin.

    jackjack
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    @‌ Gotural

    Don't get me wrong : they are a great class and not very far from the sorc

    I think that their advantages are extremely minor and their drawbacks are not major either (especially with PI and wish)

    If you like the flavor or the lore, you can pick one and i am 100% sure that you will not be disappointed

    CrevsDaakGoturaljackjack
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    Yes I agree with you. To my mind picking DD instead of vanilla Sorcerer is not the factor which will make you fail a no-reload game for example, in some situations it is better, in some situations it is worse, but over the course of the game, it won't change much.

    elminsterCrevsDaak
  • DeektDeekt Member Posts: 2
    I would like my Dragon Disciple to become a Half-Dragon at some point - is there any possibility of that? Please...?

    Kamigoroshi
  • LesseLesse Member Posts: 81
    RDD Bhaalspawns always confused me.

    Does that mean your father was an evil god, and your mother a dragon? Or your mother, disguised as an (insert race) woman, who Bhaal forced himself on?

    You think she'd just spurn his advances, set him on fire and be on her merry way...

    jackjack
  • ThrasymachusThrasymachus Member Posts: 646
    Lesse said:

    RDD Bhaalspawns always confused me.

    Does that mean your father was an evil god, and your mother a dragon? Or your mother, disguised as an (insert race) woman, who Bhaal forced himself on?

    You think she'd just spurn his advances, set him on fire and be on her merry way...

    I don't think that dragon disciple PCs are meant to be 'half-dragons' (i.e., half dragon and half Bhaal). Rather, they have some 'dragon blood' in them, which could simply mean that an ancestor (a great grandfather or whatever) was a dragon.

    elminsterElrandirjackjack
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,207
    edited July 2014
    Deekt said:

    I would like my Dragon Disciple to become a Half-Dragon at some point - is there any possibility of that? Please...?

    Probably not because as I understand it adding races is a whole different ballgame. Also you wouldn't become a half dragon. You'd have to start out as one (sort of like a half-elf).

    Edit: I stand corrected

    Post edited by elminster on
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    elminster said:

    Deekt said:

    I would like my Dragon Disciple to become a Half-Dragon at some point - is there any possibility of that? Please...?

    Probably not because as I understand it adding races is a whole different ballgame. Also you wouldn't become a half dragon. You'd have to start out as one (sort of like a half-elf).
    Um, what? A DD doesn't start out as a half-dragon - he/she is supposed to gradually become one by gaining levels in this prc/kit. There's no need to add unique subraces with templates for that. That's the whole point of transformational prc's.

    elminster
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,207

    elminster said:

    Deekt said:

    I would like my Dragon Disciple to become a Half-Dragon at some point - is there any possibility of that? Please...?

    Probably not because as I understand it adding races is a whole different ballgame. Also you wouldn't become a half dragon. You'd have to start out as one (sort of like a half-elf).
    Um, what? A DD doesn't start out as a half-dragon - he/she is supposed to gradually become one by gaining levels in this prc/kit. There's no need to add unique subraces with templates for that. That's the whole point of transformational prc's.
    Fair enough.

  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 946
    I feel there were missed opportunities. Heck, if you want my opinion of a sorc kit done right, there's the Geomantic Sorc, which was made long before Sorcs could even get kits.

    http://www.gibberlings3.net/geomantic/index.php



    Kit Description

    GEOMANTIC SORCERER: The cleric reaches out to a higher power. The wizard trusts only in eldritch tomes. The druid looks to nature for her spells. To the geomantic sorcerer, however, all magic is the same. Geomancy is the art of channeling magical energy from many sources through the land itself. The spells he casts through his connections with the earth are reflections of his own strength of will.

    Advantages:
    - Learns druid spells in addition to sorcerer spells and casts them from the sorcerer's spellbook.
    - At level 8, can shapeshift into new druid animal forms, gains an additional use every 3 levels.
    - Can learn high level Quintessence Magic.
    Quintessence Magic draws directly upon magic in its basic form, free of intermediaries such as deities, the Weave, or structured spellcasting. It is an inherently intuitive blending of the arcane and the natural forces in the world and cannot be taught or granted.

    Disadvantages:
    - Has a 15% penalty to experience.
    - Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity have a -2 penalty.
    - Has a penalty of 1 to casting speed.

    Requirements:
    - 13 Wisdom, 9 Charisma.
    - Must be of any Neutral alignment.

    Restrictions:
    - Sorcerer Item usage.
    - Recognized as a sorcerer.
    New Geomantic Sorcerer Spells

    The following are the druidic and priest Spells added to geomantic sorcerer's spellbook. Descriptions for new spells and HLAs can be found below.

    Level 1
    Cure Light Wounds, Detect Evil, Entangle, Shillelagh, Wave Spray

    Level 2
    Barkskin, Charm Person or Mammal, Flame Blade, Goodberries, Resist Fire/Cold, Slow Poison

    Level 3
    Call Lightning, Hold Animal, Protection from Fire, Cure Medium Wounds, Cure Disease, Zone of Sweet Air, Summon Insects

    Level 4
    Animal Summoning I, Free Action, Neutralize Poison, Protection from Lightning, Call Woodland Beings, Poison

    Level 5
    Cure Serious Wounds, Animal Summoning II, Iron Skins, Pixie Dust, Insect Plague

    Level 6
    Cure Critical Wounds, Animal Summoning III, Conjure Animals, Conjure Fire Elemental, Fire Seeds, Dolorous Decay

    Level 7
    Heal, Conjure Earth Elemental, Sunray, Creeping Doom, Earthquake

    Level 8
    Nature's Beauty, Fire Storm, Regeneration

    Level 9
    Tornado, Summon Shambling Mound




    THAT is how you do a sorc kit.

    Would somebody PLEASE port this over already so I can use Insect Plague sequencers and summon fire elementals alongside skeletons and demons?

    CrevsDaakElrandir
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    Dazzu said:

    I feel there were missed opportunities. Heck, if you want my opinion of a sorc kit done right, there's the Geomantic Sorc, which was made long before Sorcs could even get kits.

    http://www.gibberlings3.net/geomantic/index.php



    Kit Description

    GEOMANTIC SORCERER: The cleric reaches out to a higher power. The wizard trusts only in eldritch tomes. The druid looks to nature for her spells. To the geomantic sorcerer, however, all magic is the same. Geomancy is the art of channeling magical energy from many sources through the land itself. The spells he casts through his connections with the earth are reflections of his own strength of will.

    Advantages:
    - Learns druid spells in addition to sorcerer spells and casts them from the sorcerer's spellbook.
    - At level 8, can shapeshift into new druid animal forms, gains an additional use every 3 levels.
    - Can learn high level Quintessence Magic.
    Quintessence Magic draws directly upon magic in its basic form, free of intermediaries such as deities, the Weave, or structured spellcasting. It is an inherently intuitive blending of the arcane and the natural forces in the world and cannot be taught or granted.

    Disadvantages:
    - Has a 15% penalty to experience.
    - Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity have a -2 penalty.
    - Has a penalty of 1 to casting speed.

    Requirements:
    - 13 Wisdom, 9 Charisma.
    - Must be of any Neutral alignment.

    Restrictions:
    - Sorcerer Item usage.
    - Recognized as a sorcerer.
    New Geomantic Sorcerer Spells

    The following are the druidic and priest Spells added to geomantic sorcerer's spellbook. Descriptions for new spells and HLAs can be found below.

    Level 1
    Cure Light Wounds, Detect Evil, Entangle, Shillelagh, Wave Spray

    Level 2
    Barkskin, Charm Person or Mammal, Flame Blade, Goodberries, Resist Fire/Cold, Slow Poison

    Level 3
    Call Lightning, Hold Animal, Protection from Fire, Cure Medium Wounds, Cure Disease, Zone of Sweet Air, Summon Insects

    Level 4
    Animal Summoning I, Free Action, Neutralize Poison, Protection from Lightning, Call Woodland Beings, Poison

    Level 5
    Cure Serious Wounds, Animal Summoning II, Iron Skins, Pixie Dust, Insect Plague

    Level 6
    Cure Critical Wounds, Animal Summoning III, Conjure Animals, Conjure Fire Elemental, Fire Seeds, Dolorous Decay

    Level 7
    Heal, Conjure Earth Elemental, Sunray, Creeping Doom, Earthquake

    Level 8
    Nature's Beauty, Fire Storm, Regeneration

    Level 9
    Tornado, Summon Shambling Mound




    THAT is how you do a sorc kit.

    Would somebody PLEASE port this over already so I can use Insect Plague sequencers and summon fire elementals alongside skeletons and demons?

    This is like the most overpowered thing I've ever seen, look what does the Quintessence Magic, it's like a talent point system from an MMO on top of an already too much powerful class.

    Don't get me wrong, I was really interested by this kit because I love the flavor of the character and the power of the kit but this is not how you do a Sorcerer kit IMO.

    elminsterjackjack
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 946
    Considering this was done before you could do sorc kits, that says something. Also, +2 casting time is more brutal than you might think.

  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited July 2014
    A Dragon DISCIPLE is a person that has some draconic blood in them and learn how to unlock it.

    Just like a disciple follows something that they admire, Dragon Disciples admire their lineage and want to advance it.

    In 3.5E they become Half-Dragons, get all the benefits of it plus wings.
    It has nothing to do with shapeshifting into dragons or being half-dragons, they become half-dragons.

    But, the BGEE's implementation gives a different take on the matter as a Sorcerer that emulates and advances his draconic heritage at the expense of some of his spellcasting.

    It's also the closest thing they could do to make it into a Kit instead of something completely different that it is in 3.5E.
    Which really it sucks as a class because you set 10 spellcasting levels on fire (pun intended) to get some melee bonuses, useless to a caster.

    It's used only in gish builds, especially on NwN1/2. Getting one Sorc or Bard level and then going into a melee class while you get +8 STR, d12 and AC for free.

    And something that people seem to miss is that the DD gives you those bonuses for free so you don't have to spend one of your limited spell choices and cast them to do the same thing.

    Yeah you can get resistance to fire with a spell but you don't have to take it because the DD provides and if you do, I think it stacks.
    Same with the AC bonus I think.

    You want a lore-accurate explanation for Dragon Disciples?
    Charname's mother had some draconic lineage in her family tree which Charname unlocked and intensified with the Bhaalspawn essence.

    Sorcerous or celestial/fiendish heritages can take whole GENERATIONS to appear.

    elminsterKamigoroshi
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