@Infiltrator The progression you describe is the reason why the kit was changed in the first place; we're not going back to that. I also think you're mistaken as to what constitutes a majority.
Has anyone tried out the 1/5/9/13 progression with the beta?
@Infiltrator The progression you describe is the reason why the kit was changed in the first place; we're not going back to that. I also think you're mistaken as to what constitutes a majority.
Has anyone tried out the 1/5/9/13 progression with the beta?
What do you mean by "the reason the kit was changed in the first place" ? (Honest question there)
Globally, both your proposal and mine are nearly identical. 1 - x1 5 - x2 9 - x3 13 - x4 vs 1 - x2 9 - x3 17 - x4
Difference are :
a) 1rst makes the SD unable to backstab at low levels where it hardly matters : - You have trouble using HIPS at that level due to hide/ms skill beeing a bit low. - Reaching level 5 as a thief only requires 10000xp and is done very, very, very fast
b) 1rst grants the x4 multiplier 4 levels earlier - It dramatically improves the fact that a SD is better than a thief at backstabbing - People will want to dual class their SD at level 13, since that's exactly when they'll reach their peak (Maxed backstab multiplier, 100+ hide, 100+ ms, 100 pick lock 100 find traps = Why even bother to gain more levels ?)
In the end, it hardly matters, but I'm kinda pondering why you, of all, would support the SD recieving that x4 so early in his career when you were saying that the SD wasn't just meant to be a backstabber in the first place.
Finally, please, please, don't enhance the Assassin's backstab multiplier at low levels Assassins have always been fine in vanilla, trading skillpoints for a great ability and a lethal backstab by the end of Shadows of Amn. There never was a problem with them, and I strongly disagree about changing a vanilla kit that has always performed correctly.
@Infiltrator The progression you describe is the reason why the kit was changed in the first place; we're not going back to that. I also think you're mistaken as to what constitutes a majority.
I thought the reason the kit was changed in the first place was that it had too little going for it after level 9?
As I wrote earlier in this thread - on which several people agreed, while @Aranthys made tweak suggestions similar to my suggestion - level 17-20 would be a nice area to max the Shadowdancer's backstabbing abilities, as this makes x4 something to reach for later in BG2.
Setting the max multiplier at a relatively high level also works to prevent the Shadowdancer from becoming a somewhat overpowered dual class option. x4 at level 13 combined with HiPS makes for an extremely powerful Fighter dual.
@Dee I would like to add: the mod you've made here really shows that you've listened to the part of this discussion that wants the Shadowdancer to be something better, but please don't forget your arguments from the beginning of this whole situation, where you pointed out that that the Shadowdancer's focus isn't backstabbing, and where you set the x4 multiplier at level 25 (which I think is a little high, but I propose finding a compromise between level 13 and level 25 here).
As far as I can see this thread was as much an attempt to get input from both sides of this discussion, and personally I find myself agreeing with good points on both sides.
Strictly speaking, x-anything at level anything combined with HIPS makes for a very powerful Fighter dual. Dual-classing is powerful; there isn't much we can (or want to) change about that.
The changes were made for two reasons:
1) Shadowdancer at level 1 can't hide in shadows, and doesn't get enough skill points per level to invest in its two required abilities, much less the other thieving skills. (This was remedied by increasing the per-level skill points to 20 and granting a +10 bonus to both stealth skills at level 1. A halfling at level 1 now has a 60% chance of success, which is 10% better than a standard thief)
2) HiPS makes the Shadowdancer too powerful when combined with Backstab. We received a lot of feedback about the Backstab multiplier being too much. There was even a faction of people asking that the backstab be removed entirely. That's remedied by the reduced multiplier, and we're now getting additional feedback there which is also useful.
Globally, both your proposal and mine are nearly identical. 1 - x1 5 - x2 9 - x3 13 - x4 vs 1 - x2 9 - x3 17 - x4
Difference are :
a) 1rst makes the SD unable to backstab at low levels where it hardly matters : - You have trouble using HIPS at that level due to hide/ms skill beeing a bit low. - Reaching level 5 as a thief only requires 10000xp and is done very, very, very fast
b) 1rst grants the x4 multiplier 4 levels earlier - It dramatically improves the fact that a SD is better than a thief at backstabbing - People will want to dual class their SD at level 13, since that's exactly when they'll reach their peak (Maxed backstab multiplier, 100+ hide, 100+ ms, 100 pick lock 100 find traps = Why even bother to gain more levels ?)
In the end, it hardly matters, but I'm kinda pondering why you, of all, would support the SD recieving that x4 so early in his career when you were saying that the SD wasn't just meant to be a backstabber in the first place.
The same is true of the standard thief. It caps its backstab at level 13, which means if you're a thief and you're planning to dual-class to Fighter, level 13 is the optimal level to do it. For a thief, level 13 isn't "early in his career"; it's the end of his career.
I'm hesitant to deviate too much from the thief's progression, though I'll admit that it has less to do with game balance than it does with standardized progressions. If the Shadowdancer is "Thief BS -1", then that's simpler to design and balance around than "new variable y". It's also much easier for a player to see what they're giving up. If the description says "Cannot set traps, -1 Backstab multiplier", then as a player you know immediately that your backstab is going to be weaker.
I'm less concerned about late-game balance than I am about early-game balance. A x4 backstab multiplier in mid-BGII means that, occasionally, you'll find an enemy you can take down with less effort than normal (although this is hardly different from a ranger or a fighter wielding two weapons); by the time you reach Throne of Bhaal, most of the enemies you face are either immune to backstab or take measures to prevent it. As has been stated, you'll also have better access to potions and rings of invisibility, meaning that HiPS--while still useful in all situations--is not that much better than a standard thief in most situations. And a standard thief deals 20% more damage.
A x2 multiplier at the earliest parts of BGI, however, means the difference between a challenging encounter with a group of gibberlings, and a walk in the park for free XP. Delaying the x2 until level 5 ensures that the shadowdancer spends a few levels getting used to staying hidden instead of always going in for the kill, which is appropriate.
The same is true of the standard thief. It caps its backstab at level 13, which means if you're a thief and you're planning to dual-class to Fighter, level 13 is the optimal level to do it. For a thief, level 13 isn't "early in his career"; it's the end of his career.
Sure, but it's a vanilla thing And as a thief, you've still got quite a few other skills you want to max out (level 13 is 12x30 + 40 = ~400 points, far from enough to be able to use all of their skills properly.
I'm hesitant to deviate too much from the thief's progression, though I'll admit that it has less to do with game balance than it does with standardized progressions. If the Shadowdancer is "Thief BS -1", then that's simpler to design and balance around than "new variable y". It's also much easier for a player to see what they're giving up. If the description says "Cannot set traps, -1 Backstab multiplier", then as a player you know immediately that your backstab is going to be weaker.
Well, the proposed progression is the same as the stalker. And I don't think any player has ever had trouble with understanding the stalker backstab progression Edit.: Except when the Kit description was incorrect, of course
A x2 multiplier at the earliest parts of BGI, however, means the difference between a challenging encounter with a group of gibberlings, and a walk in the park for free XP. Delaying the x2 until level 5 ensures that the shadowdancer spends a few levels getting used to staying hidden instead of always going in for the kill, which is appropriate.
A x2 multiplier for level 1-4 won't make or break the class : - Low level monsters also hardly have enough hitpoints to be able to take even a single regular hit (Gibberlings have what ? 4 hp ? Xvarts have 6 hp or so, kobolds are pretty much the same) - To use HIPS at this level, It would also require the SD to spend every point it's got in hide and move silently, leaving him pretty much useless for detecting/disarming traps or picking locks (requiring the use of another thief in the group...) - it only matters for 10,000 xp. Basically, the thief will have its x2 multiplier by the time the bandit camp is over... probably before that if you explore a bit and do some side quests
A x2 multiplier at the earliest parts of BGI, however, means the difference between a challenging encounter with a group of gibberlings, and a walk in the park for free XP. Delaying the x2 until level 5 ensures that the shadowdancer spends a few levels getting used to staying hidden instead of always going in for the kill, which is appropriate.
This lines up with my experience playing a shadowdancer (unmodded beta version) for the first time. I spent the first few levels using HiPS as a kiting aid because it made more sense to play defensive than try to go for a melee hit. Shadowdancer tactics also vary a bit depending on the size of your party; in a small party it's more important to avoid damage and distract enemies, whereas in a larger party you have more breathing room to go for the big hits.
To use HIPS at this level, It would also require the SD to spend every point it's got in hide and move silently, leaving him pretty much useless for detecting/disarming traps or picking locks (requiring the use of another thief in the group...)
Yeah, but there's not much need for trap removal or lock opening at the beginning of the game, meaning you can get a few levels under your belt before worrying about robbing all of Beregost blind.
Also, having trouble being the only party thief is not a problem unique to the shadowdancer; the assassin has even more trouble filling the party thief role, and even the bounty hunter is going to need some levels to boost up their set traps skill so they can use their kit's shtick reliably.
Moreover, that x2 backstab still requires your SD has to hide successfully each round. Even if you successfully manage to hide, the damage done is also pretty low (Basically, you're dealing 2d6 + 2 + strength damage instead of 1d6 + 1 + strength - using a +1 short sword) That's an average of +4,5 damage per hit - if you successfully hit.
In comparison : - Your SD would probably kill these wolves just as fast by simply using a short bow with arrows and making a good use of the 2 attacks per round and THACO bonus thanks to their high dex. (And I don't think anyone finds that short bows are overpowered when used by thieves at low levels ) - Your SD will still be doing abyssal damage when compared to what a fighter with 18/5X+ strength deals
Edit.: Sorry if I sound pompous in my messages - I hope I don't - english isn't my native language, so the tone of my messages may not be perfect
You mentioned maxing out skill points by level 13; but I think you forgot "Detect Illusion", which is one of the most underappreciated thief skills in the game (it basically acts like an Illusion-only Dispel Magic).
A thief has 7 skills in which to invest, meaning a minimum of 700 skill points before he reaches his full potential. A Shadowdancer has 6 skills, but has a deficit of 5 skill points per level; by level 13, that's fifty skill points down from the standard thief even after the level 1 boost to Hide and Move Silently. So, the math:
Thief: (25 x 12) + 40 = 340 Shadowdancer: (20 x 12) + 30 + 10 + 10 = 290
A 19-Dex Halfling starts off with an additional 200 points divided among the various skills, ten of which are inaccessible to the shadowdancer. That means a grand total of 540 for the Thief, 480 for the Shadowdancer.
The Thief still needs another 160 skill points (another seven levels) before reaching 100 in all skills; the Shadowdancer needs another 120 (another six levels) to do the same.
Both of them are reaching the same level of their potential at level 13. I don't think skill points has much to do with it.
To use HIPS at this level, It would also require the SD to spend every point it's got in hide and move silently, leaving him pretty much useless for detecting/disarming traps or picking locks (requiring the use of another thief in the group...)
Yeah, but there's not much need for trap removal or lock opening at the beginning of the game, meaning you can get a few levels under your belt before worrying about robbing all of Beregost blind.
Also, having trouble being the only party thief is not a problem unique to the shadowdancer; the assassin has even more trouble filling the party thief role, and even the bounty hunter is going to need some levels to boost up their set traps skill so they can use their kit's shtick reliably.
Sure, but note that : - The assassin doesn't *have* to spend points in hide in shadows or move silently to benefit from its class perks until it's 17th level (when his backstab ability becomes better than the backstab from a regular thief) : The +1 Thaco / +1 damage and poison weapon are available and useable regardless of its move silently / hide in shadows score.
- The bouty hunter only has to increase *one* skill to use its traps properly. That means he's quickly free to increase its other skills once his set trap ability has attained a high enough level.
The shadow dancer doesn't have that luck.. if you don't increase his hide and move silently skills, you would be better playing a regular thief instead
@Aranthys Well, a shadowdancer doesn't have to spend points in hide in shadows or move silently to benefit from Slippery Mind or Shadow Step either. And while the Bounty Hunter only has one skill to increase, it is a skill that benefits less from high dexterity and racial bonuses that HiS/MS and has no items in BG1 which improve it. At best, a Bounty Hunter needs to be level 3 to have perfect Set Traps. As it happens, by level 3 a Halfling shadowdancer has 80% Hide/MS and can use Zhurlong's Boots to give himself a ~97% chance to hide outside of daylight.
You mentioned maxing out skill points by level 13; but I think you forgot "Detect Illusion", which is one of the most underappreciated thief skills in the game (it basically acts like an Illusion-only Dispel Magic).
A thief has 7 skills in which to invest, meaning a minimum of 700 skill points before he reaches his full potential. A Shadowdancer has 6 skills, but has a deficit of 5 skill points per level; by level 13, that's fifty skill points down from the standard thief even after the level 1 boost to Hide and Move Silently. So, the math:
Thief: (25 x 12) + 40 = 340 Shadowdancer: (20 x 12) + 30 + 10 + 10 = 290
A 19-Dex Halfling starts off with an additional 200 points divided among the various skills, ten of which are inaccessible to the shadowdancer. That means a grand total of 540 for the Thief, 480 for the Shadowdancer.
The Thief still needs another 160 skill points (another seven levels) before reaching 100 in all skills; the Shadowdancer needs another 120 (another six levels) to do the same.
Both of them are reaching the same level of their potential at level 13. I don't think skill points has much to do with it.
I meant maxing out the important skills That is, getting 80%+ in pick locks/detect traps, 90-100% in hide & ms and everything that's left in detect illusions.
That requires a total of about 400-460 points
Set traps isn't all that great to invest into when you're going to dual that character, and pick pocket hardly matters too
Anyway, only humans can dual class, and they start with a much smaller skill bonus when compared to halflins, so they'll probably won't have reached their peak yet at level 13
So, well, in the end, you're right. Gah. You devilish community manager
@Aranthys Well, a shadowdancer doesn't have to spend points in hide in shadows or move silently to benefit from Slippery Mind or Shadow Step either. And while the Bounty Hunter only has one skill to increase, it is a skill that benefits less from high dexterity and racial bonuses that HiS/MS and has no items in BG1 which improve it. At best, a Bounty Hunter needs to be level 3 to have perfect Set Traps. As it happens, by level 3 a Halfling shadowdancer has 80% Hide/MS and can use Zhurlong's Boots to give himself a ~97% chance to hide outside of daylight.
Aye But you can't negate the fact that the biggest selling point of a Shadow Dancer is HIPS, hence it forces you to spend your points in Hide/Ms if you want it to be effective (Slippery mind and Shadow Step are, at best, small perks when compared to HIPS) Edit.: And a 19 dex halfling is the best possible SD race. It would be like always saying that fighters deal way more damage at level 1 than anything else due to half-orcs starting with 19 strength
Halflings are the best any-kind-of-thief. The next-closest race to halflings is Elves, with a bonus 145 skill points. Humans get 100, gnomes get 140, dwarves get 110, half-orcs get 100, half-elves get 115.
@Aranthys Indeed, Halflings are the best possible thief race, which is why I suggest that they are the best fit if you want a shadowdancer to function as your only thief. Elves are also a strong contender, though, as they are only 10 points behind Halflings in Hide/MS (meaning they can still have a 90+% chance to hide by level 3 with Zhurlong's Boots) and the racial hit bonuses are a nice boost to the shadowdancer's early combat capabilities, given their affinity for archery.
A Human will have trouble serving as the party's only thief as a shadowdancer, seeing as they are tied for the worst thieves in the game, but even they can make do if you're willing to supplement their abilities with potions or knock spells.
Has anyone tried out the 1/5/9/13 progression with the beta?
Yes.
I like it.
As to the ongoing discussion about the assassin - Sorry, but having any kit as useless in a game so that it can be more powerful when imported into another game is silly. I know a lot of people seem to think that the BG series needs to be regarded as one big game, but it isn't. If BGT ever becomes an officially released and licensed product... sure! But, until then, there are two separate games.
Assassin is fine as-is in BGEE. I played one through. The skills might be slow to progress, but Poison Weapon and the extra +1 THAC0 and Damage really help the early game a lot.
The assassin will probably not be changed in the core game any time soon. That's a much more complicated question that we're not prepared to have yet in an official capacity.
The change that's on the table for "official inclusion" is the change to the shadowdancer.
Assassin is fine as-is in BGEE. I played one through. The skills might be slow to progress, but Poison Weapon and the extra +1 THAC0 and Damage really help the early game a lot.
The mod here also changes the Poison Weapon ability to scale a little better, making it a bit less of an auto-kill in BGI.
Assassin is fine as-is in BGEE. I played one through. The skills might be slow to progress, but Poison Weapon and the extra +1 THAC0 and Damage really help the early game a lot.
The mod here also changes the Poison Weapon ability to scale a little better, making it a bit less of an auto-kill in BGI.
I am aware. I haven't tested this version of the Assassin yet though, but conceptually I like it. The higher backstab at level 1 is partially counterbalanced by the weaker poison (and, on another level, I like the idea of the poison being refined over time, as your level increases), while retaining the class' low-level versatility.
Again, I haven't tried it yet, but I like it on paper. I think its probably equal-but-different to the base Assassin mechanically, but I probably like it more on a conceptual level. (Also x7 backstab at 17 is fantastic).
After giving it some thought, perhaps giving the SD x4 earlier while keeping his x2 for later makes sense as it gives parity with the base thief. I only think that there should be some incentive to keep levelling the SD past 13 and give him some flavor ability similar to the assassin but more utility than pure damage.
Something like:
Shadow strike - Imbue your weapon for X rounds with debilitating shadow magic; foes struck are paralyzed for Y rounds, save for Z STR debuff.
After giving it some thought, perhaps giving the SD x4 earlier while keeping his x2 for later makes sense as it gives parity with the base thief. I only think that there should be some incentive to keep levelling the SD past 13 and give him some flavor ability similar to the assassin but more utility than pure damage.
Something like:
Shadow strike - Imbue your weapon for X rounds with debilitating shadow magic; foes struck are paralyzed for Y rounds, save for Z STR debuff.
The SD is an adaptation of a 3rd edition prestige class, so its abilities should somehow mirror what's available to him in PnP.
The ability you're proposing is anything but utility (And has more of an assassin poison skill flavor - to me, that is : According to their prestige class description, a shadow dancer is a nimble thief/fighter that uses shadows and illusions to decieve their opponents, not shadowy strikes
The SD is an adaptation of a 3rd edition prestige class, so its abilities should somehow mirror what's available to him in PnP.
The ability you're proposing is anything but utility (And has more of an assassin poison skill flavor - to me, that is : According to their prestige class description, a shadow dancer is a nimble thief/fighter that uses shadows and illusions to decieve their opponents, not shadowy strikes
I know, and I had fun with it in NWN but since this is still 2nd edition I don't think there's any reason to try and emulate things from the 3rd as there are no prestige classes.
It was just a suggestion, and for me the paraysis is utility compared to the death attack assassins get in the PnP version which was a save vs death or die. I don't have to call it shadow poison, was just a random thought - they did have a shadow daze spell in NWN so I don't find it a stretch as far as lore is concerned :P
The SD is an adaptation of a 3rd edition prestige class, so its abilities should somehow mirror what's available to him in PnP.
The ability you're proposing is anything but utility (And has more of an assassin poison skill flavor - to me, that is : According to their prestige class description, a shadow dancer is a nimble thief/fighter that uses shadows and illusions to decieve their opponents, not shadowy strikes
I know, and I had fun with it in NWN but since this is still 2nd edition I don't think there's any reason to try and emulate things from the 3rd as there are no prestige classes.
It was just a suggestion, and for me the paraysis is utility compared to the death attack assassins get in the PnP version which was a save vs death or die. I don't have to call it shadow poison, was just a random thought - they did have a shadow daze spell in NWN so I don't find it a stretch as far as lore is concerned :P
From the get go, they are trying to adapt concepts from the 3rd edition with 2nd edition rule : - Sorcerer - Monk - Barbarian All three are 3rd edition classes, adapted for 2nd edition.
All the new kits were usually 3rd edition prestige classes, adapted for 2nd edition.
I would perfectly support a shadow daze ability, since it makes sense. I wouldn't support a "deathattack-like" ability on the other hand
I realize all that, but since this is a completely different ruleset, an assassin is a thief kit whereas it's a prestige class in 3rd, some spells/abilities are technically impossible to implement due to engine limitations, there's really no reason to strive for absolute parity in terms of gameplay, since it can never be achieved.
Shadow daze makes sense but it would have to change in some way if it was a skill gotten later on and I'm all for it - anything that has a use later and promotes investing further in the class.
The death attack in NWN is a lot stronger than what I suggested here (and not the PnP death attack) - it's always active, does damage regardless if you save and triggers multiple times per round because of how backstab/sneak attack works in the 3rd ed. I would hardly find it OP if you could paralyze on attack for for a couple of rounds per day.
i realize this is off-topic slightly but with all the tweaking to the shadowdancer going on in this thread i thought it couldn't hurt to ask. Does anyone know how to add 10% to stealth skills to the shadowdancer via EEkeeper? i created my shadowdancer before the last patch added +5 skill points/level and +10% to stealth skills at level 1. the skill points were easy once i figured out how to install EEkeeper on my mac, but i don't know whether the 10% to stealth skills applies to just the value at level one or is applied every time stealth skills are increased at level up.
More on topic, i am using the beta version shadowdancer and enjoying it immensely at level 6. Right now i think it is fine as is. he works well as an archer, scout, backstabber (for the thaco bonus if not the multiplier), and with the ability to hips or shadowstep (is this interruptable btw?) he can even melee if necc. using him as the only thief in the party does take some planning in regards to where to place thief skills though. I have no opinion on bg2 utility since i've never played it.
Comments
The progression you describe is the reason why the kit was changed in the first place; we're not going back to that. I also think you're mistaken as to what constitutes a majority.
Has anyone tried out the 1/5/9/13 progression with the beta?
Globally, both your proposal and mine are nearly identical.
1 - x1
5 - x2
9 - x3
13 - x4
vs
1 - x2
9 - x3
17 - x4
Difference are :
a) 1rst makes the SD unable to backstab at low levels where it hardly matters :
- You have trouble using HIPS at that level due to hide/ms skill beeing a bit low.
- Reaching level 5 as a thief only requires 10000xp and is done very, very, very fast
b) 1rst grants the x4 multiplier 4 levels earlier
- It dramatically improves the fact that a SD is better than a thief at backstabbing
- People will want to dual class their SD at level 13, since that's exactly when they'll reach their peak (Maxed backstab multiplier, 100+ hide, 100+ ms, 100 pick lock 100 find traps = Why even bother to gain more levels ?)
In the end, it hardly matters, but I'm kinda pondering why you, of all, would support the SD recieving that x4 so early in his career when you were saying that the SD wasn't just meant to be a backstabber in the first place.
Finally, please, please, don't enhance the Assassin's backstab multiplier at low levels
Assassins have always been fine in vanilla, trading skillpoints for a great ability and a lethal backstab by the end of Shadows of Amn.
There never was a problem with them, and I strongly disagree about changing a vanilla kit that has always performed correctly.
As I wrote earlier in this thread - on which several people agreed, while @Aranthys made tweak suggestions similar to my suggestion - level 17-20 would be a nice area to max the Shadowdancer's backstabbing abilities, as this makes x4 something to reach for later in BG2.
Setting the max multiplier at a relatively high level also works to prevent the Shadowdancer from becoming a somewhat overpowered dual class option. x4 at level 13 combined with HiPS makes for an extremely powerful Fighter dual.
As far as I can see this thread was as much an attempt to get input from both sides of this discussion, and personally I find myself agreeing with good points on both sides.
The changes were made for two reasons:
1) Shadowdancer at level 1 can't hide in shadows, and doesn't get enough skill points per level to invest in its two required abilities, much less the other thieving skills. (This was remedied by increasing the per-level skill points to 20 and granting a +10 bonus to both stealth skills at level 1. A halfling at level 1 now has a 60% chance of success, which is 10% better than a standard thief)
2) HiPS makes the Shadowdancer too powerful when combined with Backstab. We received a lot of feedback about the Backstab multiplier being too much. There was even a faction of people asking that the backstab be removed entirely. That's remedied by the reduced multiplier, and we're now getting additional feedback there which is also useful. The same is true of the standard thief. It caps its backstab at level 13, which means if you're a thief and you're planning to dual-class to Fighter, level 13 is the optimal level to do it. For a thief, level 13 isn't "early in his career"; it's the end of his career.
I'm hesitant to deviate too much from the thief's progression, though I'll admit that it has less to do with game balance than it does with standardized progressions. If the Shadowdancer is "Thief BS -1", then that's simpler to design and balance around than "new variable y". It's also much easier for a player to see what they're giving up. If the description says "Cannot set traps, -1 Backstab multiplier", then as a player you know immediately that your backstab is going to be weaker.
I'm less concerned about late-game balance than I am about early-game balance. A x4 backstab multiplier in mid-BGII means that, occasionally, you'll find an enemy you can take down with less effort than normal (although this is hardly different from a ranger or a fighter wielding two weapons); by the time you reach Throne of Bhaal, most of the enemies you face are either immune to backstab or take measures to prevent it. As has been stated, you'll also have better access to potions and rings of invisibility, meaning that HiPS--while still useful in all situations--is not that much better than a standard thief in most situations. And a standard thief deals 20% more damage.
A x2 multiplier at the earliest parts of BGI, however, means the difference between a challenging encounter with a group of gibberlings, and a walk in the park for free XP. Delaying the x2 until level 5 ensures that the shadowdancer spends a few levels getting used to staying hidden instead of always going in for the kill, which is appropriate.
Well, the proposed progression is the same as the stalker. And I don't think any player has ever had trouble with understanding the stalker backstab progression
Edit.: Except when the Kit description was incorrect, of course
- Low level monsters also hardly have enough hitpoints to be able to take even a single regular hit (Gibberlings have what ? 4 hp ? Xvarts have 6 hp or so, kobolds are pretty much the same)
- To use HIPS at this level, It would also require the SD to spend every point it's got in hide and move silently, leaving him pretty much useless for detecting/disarming traps or picking locks (requiring the use of another thief in the group...)
- it only matters for 10,000 xp. Basically, the thief will have its x2 multiplier by the time the bandit camp is over... probably before that if you explore a bit and do some side quests
Try wolves and dire wolves instead, then.
Also, having trouble being the only party thief is not a problem unique to the shadowdancer; the assassin has even more trouble filling the party thief role, and even the bounty hunter is going to need some levels to boost up their set traps skill so they can use their kit's shtick reliably.
Moreover, that x2 backstab still requires your SD has to hide successfully each round.
Even if you successfully manage to hide, the damage done is also pretty low (Basically, you're dealing 2d6 + 2 + strength damage instead of 1d6 + 1 + strength - using a +1 short sword)
That's an average of +4,5 damage per hit - if you successfully hit.
In comparison :
- Your SD would probably kill these wolves just as fast by simply using a short bow with arrows and making a good use of the 2 attacks per round and THACO bonus thanks to their high dex. (And I don't think anyone finds that short bows are overpowered when used by thieves at low levels
- Your SD will still be doing abyssal damage when compared to what a fighter with 18/5X+ strength deals
Edit.: Sorry if I sound pompous in my messages - I hope I don't - english isn't my native language, so the tone of my messages may not be perfect
You mentioned maxing out skill points by level 13; but I think you forgot "Detect Illusion", which is one of the most underappreciated thief skills in the game (it basically acts like an Illusion-only Dispel Magic).
A thief has 7 skills in which to invest, meaning a minimum of 700 skill points before he reaches his full potential. A Shadowdancer has 6 skills, but has a deficit of 5 skill points per level; by level 13, that's fifty skill points down from the standard thief even after the level 1 boost to Hide and Move Silently. So, the math:
Thief: (25 x 12) + 40 = 340
Shadowdancer: (20 x 12) + 30 + 10 + 10 = 290
A 19-Dex Halfling starts off with an additional 200 points divided among the various skills, ten of which are inaccessible to the shadowdancer. That means a grand total of 540 for the Thief, 480 for the Shadowdancer.
The Thief still needs another 160 skill points (another seven levels) before reaching 100 in all skills; the Shadowdancer needs another 120 (another six levels) to do the same.
Both of them are reaching the same level of their potential at level 13. I don't think skill points has much to do with it.
- The assassin doesn't *have* to spend points in hide in shadows or move silently to benefit from its class perks until it's 17th level (when his backstab ability becomes better than the backstab from a regular thief) : The +1 Thaco / +1 damage and poison weapon are available and useable regardless of its move silently / hide in shadows score.
- The bouty hunter only has to increase *one* skill to use its traps properly. That means he's quickly free to increase its other skills once his set trap ability has attained a high enough level.
The shadow dancer doesn't have that luck.. if you don't increase his hide and move silently skills, you would be better playing a regular thief instead
That is, getting 80%+ in pick locks/detect traps, 90-100% in hide & ms and everything that's left in detect illusions.
That requires a total of about 400-460 points
Set traps isn't all that great to invest into when you're going to dual that character, and pick pocket hardly matters too
Anyway, only humans can dual class, and they start with a much smaller skill bonus when compared to halflins, so they'll probably won't have reached their peak yet at level 13
So, well, in the end, you're right. Gah. You devilish community manager
Edit.: And a 19 dex halfling is the best possible SD race. It would be like always saying that fighters deal way more damage at level 1 than anything else due to half-orcs starting with 19 strength
A Human will have trouble serving as the party's only thief as a shadowdancer, seeing as they are tied for the worst thieves in the game, but even they can make do if you're willing to supplement their abilities with potions or knock spells.
I like it.
As to the ongoing discussion about the assassin - Sorry, but having any kit as useless in a game so that it can be more powerful when imported into another game is silly. I know a lot of people seem to think that the BG series needs to be regarded as one big game, but it isn't. If BGT ever becomes an officially released and licensed product... sure! But, until then, there are two separate games.
Is it the best class ? No. But it's perfectly viable as it is, exactly like the monk.
The change that's on the table for "official inclusion" is the change to the shadowdancer.
Incidentally... The mod here also changes the Poison Weapon ability to scale a little better, making it a bit less of an auto-kill in BGI.
Again, I haven't tried it yet, but I like it on paper. I think its probably equal-but-different to the base Assassin mechanically, but I probably like it more on a conceptual level. (Also x7 backstab at 17 is fantastic).
Something like:
Shadow strike - Imbue your weapon for X rounds with debilitating shadow magic; foes struck are paralyzed for Y rounds, save for Z STR debuff.
The ability you're proposing is anything but utility (And has more of an assassin poison skill flavor - to me, that is : According to their prestige class description, a shadow dancer is a nimble thief/fighter that uses shadows and illusions to decieve their opponents, not shadowy strikes
It was just a suggestion, and for me the paraysis is utility compared to the death attack assassins get in the PnP version which was a save vs death or die. I don't have to call it shadow poison, was just a random thought - they did have a shadow daze spell in NWN so I don't find it a stretch as far as lore is concerned :P
- Sorcerer
- Monk
- Barbarian
All three are 3rd edition classes, adapted for 2nd edition.
All the new kits were usually 3rd edition prestige classes, adapted for 2nd edition.
I would perfectly support a shadow daze ability, since it makes sense. I wouldn't support a "deathattack-like" ability on the other hand
Shadow daze makes sense but it would have to change in some way if it was a skill gotten later on and I'm all for it - anything that has a use later and promotes investing further in the class.
The death attack in NWN is a lot stronger than what I suggested here (and not the PnP death attack) - it's always active, does damage regardless if you save and triggers multiple times per round because of how backstab/sneak attack works in the 3rd ed. I would hardly find it OP if you could paralyze on attack for for a couple of rounds per day.
More on topic, i am using the beta version shadowdancer and enjoying it immensely at level 6. Right now i think it is fine as is. he works well as an archer, scout, backstabber (for the thaco bonus if not the multiplier), and with the ability to hips or shadowstep (is this interruptable btw?) he can even melee if necc. using him as the only thief in the party does take some planning in regards to where to place thief skills though.
I have no opinion on bg2 utility since i've never played it.