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Tweaking the Thieves (Shadowdancer, Assassin, Bounty Hunter, and Thief)

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Comments

  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    This was a bug with the Shadowdancer that has been fixed in the latest patch (in beta, soon to be out of beta).

    Also, I hate to burst your bubble, but I'm pretty sure Thieves don't start getting HLAs until they're in the early-mid 20s level-wise (I believe its level 24 they get their first one), so you won't be getting UAI at 17.

  • maoampapermaoampaper Member Posts: 4
    Im happy to hear it has been fixed!

    And now that you mention it level 17 do seem a bit early.
    I dont know where I get that number from. But nevertheless I think it would be cool.
    Dual-class to fighter, get grandmaster greatswords and use carsomyr with backstab

  • WilburWilbur Member Posts: 1,173

    Im happy to hear it has been fixed!

    And now that you mention it level 17 do seem a bit early.
    I dont know where I get that number from. But nevertheless I think it would be cool.
    Dual-class to fighter, get grandmaster greatswords and use carsomyr with backstab

    You can only backstab with weapons a thief can naturally wield. So Use Any Item HLA doesn't allow you to backstab with Carsomyr.

  • enneractenneract Member Posts: 187
    best backstab weapon is staff of the ram :D

  • leeho730leeho730 Member Posts: 285
    For "Use Any Item" ability...

    SD 24/Fighter 27 at TOB

    Best backstabbing item other than staff of the ram is staff of striking +3... 210 damage on critical hit!

    ass1.jpg 112.8K
    WilburCrevsDaak
  • maoampapermaoampaper Member Posts: 4
    Outnerded! Still gonna try tho :)

  • WilburWilbur Member Posts: 1,173
    leeho730 said:

    For "Use Any Item" ability...

    SD 24/Fighter 27 at TOB

    Best backstabbing item other than staff of the ram is staff of striking +3... 210 damage on critical hit!

    The staff of striking is insane for backstabbing. I guess that's why it's only got limited charges.

    Eudaemoniumleeho730CrevsDaak
  • cbarchukcbarchuk Member Posts: 322
    I honestly wish the assassin was more useful in ToB. I appreciate some of these proposed changes for the early game but its the late game that makes this class absolutely useless. I mentioned a change a while back that would allow the assassin to be the only thief class that can backstab opponents that are immune to it. Now being able to backstab repeatedly would be overpowered but allowing only one backstab against the opponent or reducing backstab damage against those opponents in some way would go a long way towards make this kit useful throughout the whole game. The assassin would then be the true backstab specialist.

  • ThubbThubb Member Posts: 8
    edited November 2013
    My problem with single and kitted thieves have always been that the dual and multiclass version is far superior. Lets face it , Baldurs gate is a combat focused game and the thiefs PnP strenghts are not handled well by the engine.

    Personally i like the assassin changes in aVENGERs rogue rebalancing mod, but class will still have the inherent problem with dealing with backstab immunitity.

    Post edited by Thubb on
  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    If this mod worked for the beta, I'm assuming it still works for the live patch?

  • SarnindSarnind Member Posts: 255
    edited November 2013
    backstab is op , I ll prefer the 3.0 D&D edition(1d6 damage every 2 levels. It would be great to have a mod to change it.

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,145
    Sarnind said:

    backstab is op , I ll prefer the 3.0 D&D edition(1d6 damage every 2 levels. It would be great to have a mod to change it.

    But this game uses 2E rules, and when you reach lvl40 in ToB, 20d6 every backstab hit + Assassination HLA?? That's a lot more OP.

  • qwert_44643qwert_44643 Member Posts: 309
    will these changes carry over to bg2ee or will another mod need to be made?

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    edited November 2013
    As of BGII:EE, the Shadowdancer's backstab progression will be as follows:

    Level 1-4: x1 (no multiplier)
    Level 5-8: x2
    Level 9-12: x3
    Level 13+: x4

    That said, the same files should work with BGII:EE, but I haven't tested them.

  • qwert_44643qwert_44643 Member Posts: 309
    I have this mods latest update and i was wondering what exactly does it do?Sorry for the questions....

  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    I'd just like to flag up a bug with this, specifically regarding the Assassin's starting with x3 multiplier, though it might also apply to other kits or maybe even the basic Thief.

    Basically, if at any point you dual-class out of Assassin into Fighter, Cleric, or Mage, the character's backstab multiplier reduces to x1! This might also apply with the other kits, but I was testing it out with Assassin.

    (Also for 'Keeper users (I don't expect Dee to address this). If you dual into a Thief and then change your class to Assassin, you will use the Thief backstab progression still rather than the Assassin one, though your backstab will still (as far as I can tell) increase at the set Assassin levels. This seems to cap you at x6 rather than x7, however.)

  • qwert_44643qwert_44643 Member Posts: 309
    can anyone confirm that this works with bg2ee?

  • SarnindSarnind Member Posts: 255
    Dee said:

    As of BGII:EE, the Shadowdancer's backstab progression will be as follows:

    Level 1-4: x1 (no multiplier)
    Level 5-8: x2
    Level 9-12: x3
    Level 13+: x4

    That said, the same files should work with BGII:EE, but I haven't tested them.

    too powerful , x 4 at level 13 is a cheat.

    Basillicum
  • enneractenneract Member Posts: 187

    can anyone confirm that this works with bg2ee?

    There is literally no reason why it shouldn't.

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,145
    Now, Swashbucklers are the only Thief kit that really RULES.
    Amazing cheese you created with this @Dee!

  • HandofTyrHandofTyr Member Posts: 106
    Is there a fix for BG1 for the shadowdancer to work like the BG2 version? We're trying to get a multiplayer going and one of the players wants to be a shadowdancer ala BG2 version. I guess the fix Dee posted earlier would work, but it also changes around some other stuff.

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Use the file attached to this post and your BG:EE shadowdancer will function exactly like the BGII:EE shadowdancer.

    HandofTyrmylegbig
  • TvrtkoSvrdlarTvrtkoSvrdlar Member Posts: 353
    I'm a terrible person :(

    I tweaked the thac0 table to give my Shadowdancer better progression since she was gimped in all other thief-y aspects (skill points, backstab modifier, traps).

    I also messed around with the weapon proficiency 2da and allowed her to get up to 3 pips in short swords and daggers. My game experience with her went from frustration to fun in the span of 2 minutes.

    However, I feel I must do penance for defiling the sacrilege of the holy Tables!

    What do you guys suggest? Maybe taking Anomen along for the ride? :D

    CrowGrammarsalad
  • InfiltratorInfiltrator Member Posts: 121
    edited November 2013
    I feel like the x4 at 13 is very natural, and doesn't unbalance things.. though there's the problem of waiting out a lot until you get to the HLAs. Sure, you have some shadow walks along the way, but the maze thing could have been a normal ability that you get earlier (like lvl 16-18?), since it doesn't seem to be that powerful compared to other HLAs anyway.

    I'm a terrible person :(

    I tweaked the thac0 table to give my Shadowdancer better progression since she was gimped in all other thief-y aspects (skill points, backstab modifier, traps).

    I also messed around with the weapon proficiency 2da and allowed her to get up to 3 pips in short swords and daggers. My game experience with her went from frustration to fun in the span of 2 minutes.

    However, I feel I must do penance for defiling the sacrilege of the holy Tables!

    What do you guys suggest? Maybe taking Anomen along for the ride? :D


    You could dual her from a fighter with shadowkeeper. Instead of being bound to fighter > thief you can dual from fighter to SD - Eudaemonium mentioned this as perfectly legal in PnP but the game restricts you from dualing TO a kit as opposed FROM a kit.

    Post edited by Infiltrator on
  • toshirotoshiro Member Posts: 113
    edited November 2014
    On the surface the assassins poison ability may sound awesome, but it's really not 12hp loss may sound good but by the end of bg even sins have a lot more hp, and your thaco still sucks so the odds of a bs is low. In bg2 ee a little easier to do assassin when you get celestial fury you have bs+ poison and stun potential.

  • cbarchukcbarchuk Member Posts: 322
    Hey which version here is the most recent with the assassin tweaks?

  • MozziahMozziah Member Posts: 10
    I'm planning on doing an assassin mage dual or multi run in the near future, so will adding the files to the override folder break mods if done first? I've always been a fan of the rogue re-balancing mod but have never liked the change to the poison in the revised kit and would prefer the scaled poison ability already in the game but not functioning so i was only going to add the dual wielding and items from that mod unless the rogue gods ever smile and that gets added to RR. I'm always a little worried about doing anything without weidu install

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