A charismatic front-liner with specials

Kneller

Here's what I want to do. I want to play a character that's a charismatic front-liner. Someone who can be the first to charge into battle and hold his own. Someone who is more than just a meat shield, but also has some special tricks and abilities. It sounds like I'm describing a paladin. However, I'm playing a Cav now and all the moral dilemmas are driving me nuts. Yeah, yeah, I know, you can pretty much just ignore alignment in this game, but I can't. I guess I just take my characters too seriously.

At first I thought of going with some kind of ranger (CG). However, all the ranger kits suck for a front-liner. Yeah, who needs +2 to all saving throws, Protection from Evil, Lay on Hands, DUHM, Undead Turning and so on when you can backstab weaker than a thief, summon a bear, or be really good with a bow. Frankly, Rangers aren't designed for tanking. Then there are the fighter kits. The Berserker is too bland (all he has is rage), and the Kensai couldn't survive a papercut.

I'm trying to avoid multi-classed characters. For some reason, I see them being more metagame-ish and less immersive. I'm not entirely against a dual class, but I won't do something like a Kensai/Mage. It's just too cheesy for me. However, I'm not against dual-classing and using SK to give the second class a kit (as long as it's not crazy OP). Overall, I'd prefer a single class, possibly with a kit, and preferably in the Warrior domain (for the THAC0 and APR). I'm also not against using a fan-made mod for a decent Ranger/Fighter kit. However, it would have to be for BG2 (as I'm currently using EasyTutu). Also, I've checked out a lot of fan-made mods and, quite frankly, they weren't well designed.

So, what do you think I should do?

KidCarnival

Blackguard gives you a paladin deal minus the moral issues with some quests, and gives you a bit more alignment freedom (can be any evil, not limited to lawful).

A Blade is basically a fighter/mage, with more weapon selection and lots of "specials".

Cleric/Fighter or Cleric/Ranger limits weapon choices, but can make an excellent frontliner. If you dislike multi-class, a cleric would be an option, maybe an early-dualed fighter or ranger to cleric.

[Deleted User]

I'll second Blackguard and Blade, as both of those are capable front-liners who are required to have a good Charisma. Dual classing a Ranger into Cleric might not be a bad idea, especially if you don't mind adding the Priest of Lathander kit with 'Keeper. But that might be a bit on the cheesy side. Berserker->Cleric duals are also popular, and for good reason, and going into cleric should make the character a bit more interesting.

Barbarians make excellent front-liners, and have a few more specials than Berserkers (though most of them are passive). Monks eventually become quite capable of holding their own in melee and come with a passel of specials, but you won't really be able to hold your own until BG2.

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elminster

I like the regular, unkitted ranger myself. Up to full plate mail armour, 2* to Two-Weapon Style (plus the usual 4 proficiency points at character creation), Racial enemy, etc.

nano

If you're not averse to using Shadowkeeper, how about a Fighter>Swashbuckler? Dashing rogue, perfect for a gentleman thief type of character. Great fighter because of the dual class, eventual access to Use Any Item. They have a few thiefy tricks up their sleeve too, but if you want more you can replace Swashbuckler with Bounty Hunter.

Kneller

Ok, no blackguard. I'm playing EasyTutu, not EE, so it's not available. Besides, I don't want to play evil. Cleric/Ranger is almost as cheesy as the Kensage.

The Blade is tempting, but the THAC0 and APR is essentially going to be half that of a fighter. I don't mind micro-managing, but with a class that relies so much on spellcasting to catch up to a vanilla fighter, it seems like a lot of work just to be able to do what a warrior can do naturally.

@thespace

I want to like the Stalker. I really do. I think he's my closest contender for a replacement. It just seems like, in terms of versatility, all the rangers/fighters pale in comparison to the paladin. Not to mention cleric/paladin spells are way more handy than druid/ranger spells for the first three levels.

I think to make the Stalker work well, I'd have to have the Stalker weaving in and out of the fog of war, stealthing like a shadowdancer, backstabbing. It's a little cheese and has the stalker out of the battle more than he's in it. Otherwise, why not just take a fighter?

It's also a little difficult to imagine the PC as a Ranger having grown up in Candlekeep, but that's not too big of a deal.

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Kneller

I'm not too worried about the backstory. I was thinking that Imoen and you would sneak out of candlekeep all thiefy-like and do some nature walks or whatever.

Ok, why daggers when a long sword would double your damage? I'm also assuming that you have to stick to official thief backstabbing weapons. If so, for BG1, your best weapon would probably be the staff mace (aside from the staff of striking). Even that +2 longsword you get from Greywolf would be better.

You're kinda screwed for armor, though. The best your base AC will get on it's own is -2 (Bracers AC 6, Ring of Protection +2, Helm/Cloak of Balduran,18 Dex). With access to plate, you can drop another 5 points.

It would take a lot of invisibility to pull this off, which boils down to either a lot of resting for spell memorization or a lot of money on invis potions.

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Kneller

EE must have really changed up the weapons, because that's definitely a sub-standard move for the GOG version. With that, you're best bet is probably just longswords, with bows for ranged backup. Put a pip in 2W style at Level 3, then start working towards staves and 2H.

At this point of the conversation, though, wouldn't a stalker be outclassed across the board by a F/T? I know I said I wasn't a fan of multis, but I'm just saying. A F/T would have a better backstab, better saves, more skills, UAI, etc. What can a stalker do that a F/T can't (other than that third pip in 2W)?

Maybe I should mod my own kit. Some kind of dueling ranger. Maybe something like the archer, but for melee weapons. And maybe with some better spells. I wonder what a ranger would look like if someone made it as good as a paladin...

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enneract

Make a shadowdancer. If you have the beta, use the tweak pack that Dee posted in the modding forum. You'll like it.

sarevok57

@enneract he said he wasn't playing ee, he is playing bg tutu, plus @Kneller I don't think there really is any class that can kick butt at level 1, have poop load of abilities and not be restricted to lawful good, if you are patient enough a monk can become good at higher levels ( although in bg1 he is going to require baby sitting, which is something that you don't want) but what I do with monks in bg1 is give them single weapon style and twinkle twinkle little star ( you have to be good alignment to do that, and lawful good if im not mistaken which also defeats this purpose) but It does give you monk a 3 point AC boost doing that, he wont be using his fisties in bg1 but if you have 19 str using twinkle with the mits of weapon specialization, then he dish out some decent damage, plus I hit -8 AC with my monk in bg1 which isn't all that bad, or what about a priest of helm? they get that seeking sword ability, acts as a +3 weapon, gives you 3 attacks per round I believe, or the priest of lathander, boon of lathander gives +1 to hit/ damage/ attacks per round, plus all those cleric spells, so in theory you can have some decent clerics who can get some good AC, attacks per round, special abilities, and spells

Tetraploid

I would recommended a Cleric of Lathander. As far as party leaders go, I guess I see them leading more through wisdom than charisma, but you can give them high charisma too if you want. In term of actual gameplay, though, single class Clerics make great frontliners. You can put them in heavy armor and a shield, and they can buff and heal themselves. You want "Someone who is more than just a meat shield, but also has some special tricks and abilities."? There you have it!

Kneller

@thespace The problem with the GOG edition is that there isn't a single decent club. As for daggers, this is a remnant of when I used to play 2e PnP, but I can't bring myself to give that really sweet dagger to a good-aligned character. A stalker will level faster than a F/T, but will only maintain the lead for a short while. Once level 20 hits, the F/T starts to catch up. At the most, the Stalker will have a 7 point lead in THAC0 (which is certainly significant), but this will only be for a very small portion of the game. As for thief skills, Imoen is going to be limited, especially if you dual her (which I always do, and happens anyway in BG2). In fact, with the F/T, I would just pick one skill for Imoen (maybe Find Illusions or PP), max it asap, and dual her sooner. The F/T can set up traps, run in for a backstab, then lure out the enemy as he runs off to hide again. The F/T can buff with potions (and scrolls with UAI). You have two lists of HLAs to choose from. You can actually use detect illusion. It's not really about power, but that the F/T can just do so much more, and hold the front line even better as he can wear plate if the situation calls for it.

Now, you mentioned playing off the class strengths. In this case, focusing on backstabbing, I would think a more synergistic approach would be ++Longsword, +Single Weapon style, and maybe daggers or whatever for a ranged backup. Then levels 3 and 6 can be used to max out your backup weapon and 2W. You'll crit backstabs twice as often and still be able to go toe-to-toe with 2W.

Anyway, this is why I think Paladin>Stalker. They get more useful spells, and their spellcasting goes up to level 4. They get undead turning which will eventually vaporize anything 6HD or lower. With their bonus to saving throws, gear, and spells, they can eventually have all 1's for saving throws. They're better backup healers. The only thing a ranger can do better than a paladin is put that third pip in 2W. So, basically +2 THAC0 to an offhand weapon. Big whoop.

@sarevok57 I'm not looking for someone who can kick butt right out of the gates. In fact, I'd even rather a class that grows over time. I've thought about a monk, but they can't even hold the line until you're into BG2.

@tetraploid I do like clerics, and the canon party could really use one. Boon of Lathander helps, but its uses are limited (3/day at level 20). Not to mention, with their slow casting times, they make terrible combat casters. Being a single-classed non-warrior, they are losing out on at least 1.5 APR due to not getting the warrior bonus attacks and specialization. Righteous Magic only partially makes up for this.

magpie

Why not shadowkeeper your alignment to not-lawful good and play the paladin as a charismatic frontliner with specials that isn't a paladin? Especially if you don't mind being good you can just play it as some other kind of warrior-for-good class without the lawful part. I've always found both the paladin and the ranger class strangely, needlessly specific. Why no evil rangers and why does the charismatic frontliner with specials have to be lawful?

element

its interesting that you say you feel multiclassing is too meta whilst being fine with dual classing. personaly id say that the most meta character build is a dual class.

regardless is it essential you play as a kit why not just vanilla ranger? failing that how about a swash buckler

Madhax

How about a melee-oriented Dragon Disciple? Just beat the game with one myself, and it was a blast. Started with something like 18/18/15/10/10/18 in stats, and tanked the whole game. Chose spells like Shield and Mirror Image early, into Stoneskin and Fireshield as my final selections.

With the Robes of the X Archmagi, max dexterity, and eventually 16 Constitution, a Disciple can sit at roughly -4 AC and 8 HP/Level. Combine that with the ability to repeatedly refresh Mirror Image and Stoneskin, and starting off swarm fights with a breath attack. You can get a +3 quarterstaff early in the game, and post-tome that with 19 strength makes the Disicple a very solid melee presence. If you're Good, you can even get Draw Upon Holy Might towards the end of the game.

Endgame BGEE Disicples get 50% natural Fire Resistance, which combined with Fireshield Red is 100% resistance, allowing you to fireball yourself with impunity. Rasaad with the Sun Soul fireshield plus a FR ring can reach 90% (at least, I may be missing something), which lets him sit in the sauna with the PC. It gets pretty hilarious.

Kneller

@magpie I do agree that the alignment restrictions for paladins are odd. Why can't every deity have a "mystic" knight? However, I have a thing about sticking to the PnP rules as much as possible, so I couldn't SK him in good conscience. I could create a mystic knight type of kit using a paladin as a template. And, as long as it's balanced, I could play it in good conscience. However, that might not be possible based on how the system is hard-coded.

@element Frankly, I don't like anything other than a single class pretty much. It's one of the main reasons I don't like 3+e. It's all too meta for me. As for vanilla rangers, they're just not interesting enough. For the most part, it's a fighter with some weak druid spells and sneak.

Kneller

@madhax I'm not playing EE anymore. It's too buggy. I went back to my GoG version, so no Dragon Disciple.

alnair

"A charismatic front-liner with special" is a convoluted way of saying "Bard"

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luskan

The staff mace is a single handed quarterstaff, plus you can use the other two handed quarterstaffs for massive backstabs if you don't mind switching weapons in combat. Add in two handed weapon style for 19s as criticals and you're golden.

nano

@Madhax You could always cast protection from fire or resist fire/cold. Put Jaheira's second level slots to use! Melee Dragon Disciple sounds fun though, and it's something I've wanted to try.

Eudaemonium

thespace said:

I find it funny that you "are trying to avoid multiclasses" and then went on to explain how a fighter/thief is better than a stalker....just messin' wit ya

I don't know what GoG is, so I guess my advice is off. Bottom line is that in EE I have found stalkers to be perfectly adequate, even quite tough, and I appreciate their simplicity. Anything much tougher, for me, might seem too easy.

Why doesn't GoG have any good clubs?

GoG stands for Good Old Games, its a digital distribution site. He means he's playing the tutu version of the game, and vanilla BG doesn't have any decent clubs at all (they added them in EE).

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KidCarnival

The problem might not be the paladin's restriction to lawful good, but your own restrictions. You already dismissed most typical frontliner single classes as "too boring" or "not enough specials" or "wrong specials", the dual options as "too meta/cheesy" and multi class as "don't like". When it comes down to it, you simply want to play a paladin. So play a paladin. Or alternatively the one single class you haven't completely dismissed, a Priest of Lathander or Helm.

recklessheart

@thespace, apologies as I do not know how to quote you on it, but I am rather perplexed by one thing you have said: the Blade does not occur to you as an appropriate alternative as it does not advance in melee as well as a fighter, and you aren't interested in using magic to compensate for melee. This is rather confusing to me, as what you're essentially saying is that you want to play a meatshield, surely? Any charismatic abilities (ie. enchantment spells) will be available to the Blade, as well as defensive and offensive alternatives that do not require 5 proficiency points in longsword, two-handed sword, or all the best armour in the game. I agree with you that Kensai/Mage and the like is cheesy, but everything you are asking for is most fittingly addressed by the Blade.

zur312

for bg2 ranger/stalker/ is only a little less powerfull than paladin
for bg1 he is still little less

cleric of lathander could be pretty good as fighter with charisma his boon of lathander is probably the best of all clerics

shapeshifter would be nice his stats of str dex con have no impacton shapeshifting so you can put everything into charisma plus he is a caster so buffs plus he is really good if you know what to do