I find it funny that you "are trying to avoid multiclasses" and then went on to explain how a fighter/thief is better than a stalker....just messin' wit ya
Why doesn't GoG have any good clubs?
GoG is a digital repack of the original game + tosc + official patches. EasyTutu is a mod that lets you play BG1 with BG2's system (so you have DW and don't have to wait to kit, etc.) In the original game, there wasn't a single magical club.
And, it kills me that MC/DC are so uber compared to single classes. I used to play PnP back in the day and the DM at the time had virtually prohibited MC/DC due to their meta nature. I mean, really, imagine this game if there was no MC/DC. You just picked a core concept and you stuck with it. None of this mixing and matching to rake up specials.
However, I use a F/T for a comparison not in terms of power (even though it is more powerful), but in terms of versatility. I really do like the Stalker. For a straight class, it's one of my favs for flavor. However, it could have been built a little better.
The staff mace is a single handed quarterstaff, plus you can use the other two handed quarterstaffs for massive backstabs if you don't mind switching weapons in combat. Add in two handed weapon style for 19s as criticals and you're golden.
You can do the same thing with single weapon style and get a bump to AC to boot.
When it comes down to it, you simply want to play a paladin. So play a paladin.
You're right. I want to play a paladin. However, I have another thread that is discussing that this isn't a game for a paladin. The storyline forces you to make some very non-LG choices for really no good reason. The resulting moral conflict is killing my enjoyment of my run.
Well, I really want to play an evil stalker, but unless I EEkeep the alignment, that's not possible either. So edit the alignment to what you prefer and play the paladin as that.
Well, I really want to play an evil stalker, but unless I EEkeep the alignment, that's not possible either. So edit the alignment to what you prefer and play the paladin as that.
I think someone else suggested this and I responded that I prefer to play as close to PnP rules as possible. So, it's too cheaty for me.
You're right. I want to play a paladin. However, I have another thread that is discussing that this isn't a game for a paladin. The storyline forces you to make some very non-LG choices for really no good reason. The resulting moral conflict is killing my enjoyment of my run.
As mentioned in the other thread, there literally is no moral conflict, and you're not making a non-LG decision. A Paladin is more likely to lose their powers by doing nothing than by allying with the Shadow Thieves against a greater evil.
Well, I really want to play an evil stalker, but unless I EEkeep the alignment, that's not possible either. So edit the alignment to what you prefer and play the paladin as that.
I think someone else suggested this and I responded that I prefer to play as close to PnP rules as possible. So, it's too cheaty for me.
Here's the thing... Maybe you are too picky for the game. You like everything about playing a paladin except to play as a paladin. No other class is a paladin, and hence can't satisfy this main demand you have. You can see how that's a problem, right? Why not play as something else then, like the recommended cleric, instead of discussing every other option apart? I don't get it.
The holy liberator class mod @AstroBryGuy suggests seems fairly minimalistic and balanced (no lay on hands, immunity to charm, can protect everyone near him from mind control). Might really be what you are looking for.
@KidCarnival A cleric really isn't a good frontliner due to APR and THAC0.
I think there might be another way to do this, though. I've always been under the impression that the character in the first slot is the party leader and it is their charisma that determines dialogue. However, with BG2, I've noticed that if I send another character to talk, they get a little (S) icon in their portrait. Does this mean that it's actually their charisma that is used?
It varies, I think. I believe for Stores and shop-discounts it is the party-leader (persona at top), but when just talking to people it is the person they actually speak to.
Note also that the main character doesn't have to be the one at the top. You can make one of your other party members the "face" of the group who deals with people while Gorion's Ward calls the shots behind the scenes. Ajantis and Safana are both good for this role with their 17 Charisma, and there are plenty of 16 Charisma NPCs in the game (including Imoen).
But what you seem to want PERFECTLY describes Cleric/Ranger. It's what I'm going to play in my next playthrough. It sounds great.
It's abit paladinish but the alignments are more flexible (All good ones) and you have far more tricks, you see: You can cast both the Cleric And the Druid spells! Since Rangers have a druid magic book and clerics have the cleric one (ofcourse). So there's your special tricks, you can choose between druid and cleric or a mix of the two. Plus a small trick of being able to go stealth when you're not wearing heavy armors, useful for slipping passt anything alone. Just unequip your armor a moment.
Ontop of that, a Cleric/Ranger is not restricted to only Humans like Paladins are. Mine is going to be a Half Elf. I want to avoid the loss to constitution for my charismatic frontliner, but still get some elf bonuses that humans don't get so shazamm!
You can put more specializations in weapons like any Ranger but you can only use Cleric weapons. So basicly anything blunt and one handed will do. My Cleric/Ranger is going to dual-wield Warhammers mostly with future sights on Crom Faeyr and such artefacts.
I hope my opinion helped! I remember that I felt almost exactly like you described as you felt. Now I'm just waiting for a few months for the next bug fixing patch and I'm starting my adventure. (:
Good luck!!
TLDR; Cleric/Ranger > Ranger&Cleric benefits (Druid and cleric spells), more weapon specialization points, good health > Decent race options equals Full Plate > Dual wield > Divine and Druidic magic > Stealth > Have fun.
Ps. Druid spells unlock when your character reaches the appropiate level. Somewhere before 10.
I do like the Cleric/Ranger, and I'm getting tired of mulling over this. As much as I dislike MC, it's probably my favorite in that category. The druid spell thing is actually a bit of a turn-off, though. I'm fine with minor access (per PnP rules), but getting the entire spread (at level 8, btw) is a little much. A minor nit.
Regarding the Half-Elf bonuses, do you get that in EE? You definitely don't get it in vanilla. I mean, the manual says you do, but it's never actually implemented.
I did play one for a bit once, back in vanilla, for BG1. I pretty much left my party at the starting point of the map and then used the C/R to clear everything solo.
Even though it's M/C, I'm liking this idea. I only see two downsides. One is that I always play the canon party and there's a fair bit of redundancy. Jah is second-rate in comparison and I have a ranger in Minsc. Two is that I'd like to make this guy my party leader. So, I'd be shooting for this for stats:
Str 18 Dex 17 Con 18 Int Whatever, probably 10 Wis 18 Cha 18
Even with ranger rolls, that's a tall order (97?). However, if I wanted to get away with it on the cheap, I can probably do:
Str 18 Dex 17 Con as close to 18 as possible Int whatever, probably 10 Wis 13 Cha 17
which would be 93, tops. I'll have 18 Cha pretty quick with the tome. The Wis tomes will help catch me up, but I'd still lose some bonus spells.
Yeah, that all sounds good. In terms of concept, I'm thinking that he was raised in Candlekeep, but Imoen and he would sneak out from time to time to spend time in the woods. Perhaps he always sensed there was something unnatural and dark about himself, which is why he gravitated towards more wholesome things like nature and spirituality. Demons are probably an obvious choice for favored enemy. I was thinking of SKing in a kit for more flavor. Perhaps Stalker for sneaking out of Candlekeep or Lathander in hopes that his deity could help heal his inner demons? Any other build tips? Thanks.
Stalker might be an issue simply due to the fact that one of its main bonuses (backstab) is useless with almost all Cleric weapons (only Clubs work, and Quarterstaffs, but you will likely be DWing). If you want to Keeper in a kit my advice would be to go for a Cleric one, either Lathander or Helm.
A cleric is a good frontliner according to your specifications: a meatshield with extras. You didn't ask for a good damage dealer. To me, both a tank and a melee damage dealer are equally suitable as "frontliner", so saying that a cleric "would be what you're looking for, except" falls under "too picky" once more.
I suggested cleric/ranger or cleric/fighter to add some better damage, but let's face it, most classes simply won't have the averge damage output of a paladin or fighter. A cleric/ranger also doesn't have to use the druid spells. Really, what druid spells would you take on lower levels anyway? Just take the usual Command, Remove Fear, DUHM, Dispel Magic, Hold Person and so on and you'll never know it's a ranger from the spells you cast.
I suggested cleric/ranger or cleric/fighter to add some better damage, but let's face it, most classes simply won't have the averge damage output of a paladin or fighter.
You think? I mean, there's certain points in the game where a C/R will lag behind the single-classed Paladin, but the C/R is going to have a lot more abilities at his disposal. And, Once the paladin or fighter hits level 20, the C/R starts to catch up.
They get it at a certain experience level. I believe it's like 2.5mil. So, once the C/R hits 2.5mil xp (L13/12), he will start getting HLAs. At least, that's how it was in vanilla, who knows if EE will change it.
The question is also, are we talking about dualed ranger-to-cleric (and what level) or multi class. And then, in comparisons, you'll always see that it's a trade and ultimately comes down to your playstyle and preferences when it comes to "better".
I think we're avoiding the most obvious answer of all: straight swashbuckler.
Sure, they don't have great AC (although it keeps getting better with level). They don't have as much THAC0 as a fighter (but they end up beating out clerics). You asked for a charismatic frontline fighter with options though, and a swashbuckler is easily all of those things.
I think we get caught up in trying to be too over-the-top sometimes. You don't need -10 AC to beat Baldur's Gate, you don't even need -6 AC. A swashbuckler who drinks a potion of defense will get down into that range though. Really, the thing I lament most is that they can't wear a helmet, but when you get Use Any Item in BG2 that clears up easily enough. I'm telling you that I led my party through BG:EE as a swashbuckler on the front line of the party, I took my share of nasty hits but I beat the game as a frontline swashbuckler. I wanted the same thing you wanted, and that thief kit fit the bill. I even went toe-to-toe with Sarevok after Minsc got the **** kicked out of him.
Swashbucklers are fun, and I hear you can even trick them out in BG2 by dual-wielding scimitars that grant extra attacks to keep them in the "broken-as-heck" range of gaming. As for me, I put two pips in Single-Weapon Style to give me an edge on AC for the first game. ^_^
@Schneidend AFAIK, that's how vanilla works. A fixpack might have changed it, though.
@KidCarnival I assumed we were talking about a MC not a DC. Otherwise, for a DC, you're probably better off going F/C as then you'll level faster and still have the same combat skills. The only thing you would really lose is stealth and a bunch of druid spells you're really not supposed to have anyway. Of course, with the Fighter, you could go Beserker>Cleric (popular choice) and the advantages would more than make up for what you lose from the Ranger.
@LordRumfish I'm a bit on the fence when it comes to swashies. I like them for flavor, but they only partially catch up to a vanilla fighter. You have to figure, he'll have half as much HP or less, ultimately 1 less APR, 3/4 the THAC0, and will steadily be lagging behind in AC. Don't get me wrong, it's a balanced class considering that it still has a full array of thief skills, but for a frontlining face man, the swashie falls a little short. However, if I were to have a single-classed thief in my party, I'd want a swashie.
I guess my argument was, how good is "good enough"? Of course swashbucklers aren't as good as fighters... at fighting. If that's what you had wanted, you would have just rolled a fighter by now. That isn't what you were asking for though, you wanted a character with options. Quite frankly, you probably need to trade a smidge of effectiveness to get the tricks you want up your sleeve.
I might also argue for a fighter/thief multiclass or some variation of dual-classing (if you aren't afraid of using mods, I think someone already suggested going from some form of fighter into swashbuckler). That just seems needlessly complicated though, when swashbuckler is such a convenient package that you don't have to jump through hoops to get. If you must have a heavier frontline fighter, I'll leave it at fighter/thief for my second suggestion. Fighter/cleric would also have some tricks up their sleeve and be a solid tank. I'm still cheering for swashbuckler though.
I don't think a dualed ranger/cleric is "not supposed" to have those spells. A dualed mage/cleric is as supposed to have both arcane and divine spells, too, and will still be able to learn mage spells when leveling as cleric. It's simply a perk of this build. On high levels, certainly a very powerful one (from the druid spells, there really isn't much worth bothering with for most of BG1 if you have cleric alternatives), but frankly, there are "worse" (as in "cheesy") things. It's up to you to memorize those spells, not a passive bonus you get if you like it or not. I'm currently running around with a dualed ranger/cleric who barely casts anything and frontlines with Ashideena and Stupifier dual wield as only frontliner (3 PC party with a thief/fighter MC archer and a sorcerer). Except for the charisma, it's what you describe - a tank-capable frontliner with high damage output who has divine spells as 'special'. Like a paladin, but not lawful good. (Charisma is no concern; the sorcerer is the shopface - so there's that option, dump charisma and let someone else talk; for reaction rolls where charname is checked, cloak and tome will do).
According to the PnP rules for that edition, a Ranger only gets minor access (levels 1-3) to some druid spheres. In BG, they get everything.
Side note, does charisma actually matter for a sorcerer? Or, because a sorc doesn't need Int like a mage, you figured you might as well have him be the face? And, actually, does charisma even matter for shops? I thought that was all determined by Rep.
Sorcerers in BG need no stats at all, so assign them as you see fit. High Charisma does give you a shop discount, however, which caps at 20 CHA. This is in addition to your Rep bonus.
Comments
And, it kills me that MC/DC are so uber compared to single classes. I used to play PnP back in the day and the DM at the time had virtually prohibited MC/DC due to their meta nature. I mean, really, imagine this game if there was no MC/DC. You just picked a core concept and you stuck with it. None of this mixing and matching to rake up specials.
However, I use a F/T for a comparison not in terms of power (even though it is more powerful), but in terms of versatility. I really do like the Stalker. For a straight class, it's one of my favs for flavor. However, it could have been built a little better. You can do the same thing with single weapon style and get a bump to AC to boot. You're right. I want to play a paladin. However, I have another thread that is discussing that this isn't a game for a paladin. The storyline forces you to make some very non-LG choices for really no good reason. The resulting moral conflict is killing my enjoyment of my run.
http://www.gibberlings3.net/oversight/
I think there might be another way to do this, though. I've always been under the impression that the character in the first slot is the party leader and it is their charisma that determines dialogue. However, with BG2, I've noticed that if I send another character to talk, they get a little (S) icon in their portrait. Does this mean that it's actually their charisma that is used?
But what you seem to want PERFECTLY describes Cleric/Ranger. It's what I'm going to play in my next playthrough. It sounds great.
It's abit paladinish but the alignments are more flexible (All good ones) and you have far more tricks, you see: You can cast both the Cleric And the Druid spells! Since Rangers have a druid magic book and clerics have the cleric one (ofcourse). So there's your special tricks, you can choose between druid and cleric or a mix of the two. Plus a small trick of being able to go stealth when you're not wearing heavy armors, useful for slipping passt anything alone. Just unequip your armor a moment.
Ontop of that, a Cleric/Ranger is not restricted to only Humans like Paladins are. Mine is going to be a Half Elf. I want to avoid the loss to constitution for my charismatic frontliner, but still get some elf bonuses that humans don't get so shazamm!
You can put more specializations in weapons like any Ranger but you can only use Cleric weapons. So basicly anything blunt and one handed will do. My Cleric/Ranger is going to dual-wield Warhammers mostly with future sights on Crom Faeyr and such artefacts.
I hope my opinion helped! I remember that I felt almost exactly like you described as you felt. Now I'm just waiting for a few months for the next bug fixing patch and I'm starting my adventure. (:
Good luck!!
TLDR;
Cleric/Ranger > Ranger&Cleric benefits (Druid and cleric spells), more weapon specialization points, good health > Decent race options
equals
Full Plate > Dual wield > Divine and Druidic magic > Stealth > Have fun.
Ps. Druid spells unlock when your character reaches the appropiate level. Somewhere before 10.
Regarding the Half-Elf bonuses, do you get that in EE? You definitely don't get it in vanilla. I mean, the manual says you do, but it's never actually implemented.
I did play one for a bit once, back in vanilla, for BG1. I pretty much left my party at the starting point of the map and then used the C/R to clear everything solo.
Even though it's M/C, I'm liking this idea. I only see two downsides. One is that I always play the canon party and there's a fair bit of redundancy. Jah is second-rate in comparison and I have a ranger in Minsc. Two is that I'd like to make this guy my party leader. So, I'd be shooting for this for stats:
Str 18
Dex 17
Con 18
Int Whatever, probably 10
Wis 18
Cha 18
Even with ranger rolls, that's a tall order (97?). However, if I wanted to get away with it on the cheap, I can probably do:
Str 18
Dex 17
Con as close to 18 as possible
Int whatever, probably 10
Wis 13
Cha 17
which would be 93, tops. I'll have 18 Cha pretty quick with the tome. The Wis tomes will help catch me up, but I'd still lose some bonus spells.
We might be onto something.
I suggested cleric/ranger or cleric/fighter to add some better damage, but let's face it, most classes simply won't have the averge damage output of a paladin or fighter. A cleric/ranger also doesn't have to use the druid spells. Really, what druid spells would you take on lower levels anyway? Just take the usual Command, Remove Fear, DUHM, Dispel Magic, Hold Person and so on and you'll never know it's a ranger from the spells you cast.
I dunno. At level 20 won't the Paladin or Fighter have an HLA or two already?
Sure, they don't have great AC (although it keeps getting better with level). They don't have as much THAC0 as a fighter (but they end up beating out clerics). You asked for a charismatic frontline fighter with options though, and a swashbuckler is easily all of those things.
I think we get caught up in trying to be too over-the-top sometimes. You don't need -10 AC to beat Baldur's Gate, you don't even need -6 AC. A swashbuckler who drinks a potion of defense will get down into that range though. Really, the thing I lament most is that they can't wear a helmet, but when you get Use Any Item in BG2 that clears up easily enough. I'm telling you that I led my party through BG:EE as a swashbuckler on the front line of the party, I took my share of nasty hits but I beat the game as a frontline swashbuckler. I wanted the same thing you wanted, and that thief kit fit the bill. I even went toe-to-toe with Sarevok after Minsc got the **** kicked out of him.
Swashbucklers are fun, and I hear you can even trick them out in BG2 by dual-wielding scimitars that grant extra attacks to keep them in the "broken-as-heck" range of gaming. As for me, I put two pips in Single-Weapon Style to give me an edge on AC for the first game. ^_^
@KidCarnival I assumed we were talking about a MC not a DC. Otherwise, for a DC, you're probably better off going F/C as then you'll level faster and still have the same combat skills. The only thing you would really lose is stealth and a bunch of druid spells you're really not supposed to have anyway. Of course, with the Fighter, you could go Beserker>Cleric (popular choice) and the advantages would more than make up for what you lose from the Ranger.
@LordRumfish I'm a bit on the fence when it comes to swashies. I like them for flavor, but they only partially catch up to a vanilla fighter. You have to figure, he'll have half as much HP or less, ultimately 1 less APR, 3/4 the THAC0, and will steadily be lagging behind in AC. Don't get me wrong, it's a balanced class considering that it still has a full array of thief skills, but for a frontlining face man, the swashie falls a little short. However, if I were to have a single-classed thief in my party, I'd want a swashie.
I might also argue for a fighter/thief multiclass or some variation of dual-classing (if you aren't afraid of using mods, I think someone already suggested going from some form of fighter into swashbuckler). That just seems needlessly complicated though, when swashbuckler is such a convenient package that you don't have to jump through hoops to get. If you must have a heavier frontline fighter, I'll leave it at fighter/thief for my second suggestion. Fighter/cleric would also have some tricks up their sleeve and be a solid tank. I'm still cheering for swashbuckler though.
Side note, does charisma actually matter for a sorcerer? Or, because a sorc doesn't need Int like a mage, you figured you might as well have him be the face? And, actually, does charisma even matter for shops? I thought that was all determined by Rep.