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Daggers and Shortswords are awful

13

Comments

  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    I always use daggers or short sword for mt thieves just because it feels so derpy that a thief, who is supposed to have small, concealed weapons, can have this big ass long sword. It just feels cooler to have urge small wepon. Also, if the damage average is 3, compared to a long swords 4, and the best long sword in bg1 is +2, and the best short sword is +3 then:
    3+3 = 6
    4+2= 6,
    6=6.
    Long sword speed factor 3,
    Short sword speed factor 0,

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........

    Maybe not so bad after all.

    But yes, they should be made special.

    Time4Tiddy
  • wampawampa Member Posts: 68
    I've always thought Arbane/Kundane should be combined into one weapon... would be the best off-hand weapon ever if they did though.

  • KaigenKaigen Member Posts: 1,567
    @meagloth Close, although the +2 longsword has an extra +1 cold damage, and the +3 shortsword comes very late in the game. Even so, the difference between Varscona and the +2 short sword you get early is only 7 vs. 5 (round), which is by no means an earth-shattering gap (and once you do have the +3 shortsword, that extra THAC0 might well come in handy for those final fights).

  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    @Kaigen I discounted the cold because it was elemental, not, Umm, + damage? But yes, that is there my point is they're almost the same, and sometimes the short sword might even be better.
    I think the short sword of backstabbing should ad 1 more multiplayer to your backstab score. Te no one would pick long sword for their thief again, but would not be so incredibly OP, or as fundamental as changing short swords all together.

    Wilbur
  • Cowled_wizardCowled_wizard Member Posts: 119
    Daggers should have+1 to backstab, there low base damage to compensate. I dont think it can be implemented though

    Wilbur
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    Rogue Rebalancing adds a +1 multiplier to the +3 Shortsword, so its probably feasible to do. It would probably mean manually editing the file of every dagger, however.

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Increasing backstab multipliers is definitely possible in Infinite. How excellent an idea that might be for all daggers to have it is questionable, however. I'd certainly like to try a mod that implemented such a change, though.

  • wampawampa Member Posts: 68
    I'd just like to point out that in BG2, the low base damage of weapons like Daggers and Shortswords isn't what keeps them generally poor main-hand weapon options. Most of the base damage of weapons in non-backstab situations comes from the STR bonus rather than the weapon itself, and STR-boosting items become extremely prevalent in BG2. The primary reason Daggers/Shortswords are poor main-hand weapons is lack of good hit-on-effect characteristics associated with weapons in this category.

    Compare the SS of Mask +4 to Celestial Fury +3, for example. SS of Mask +4 has a 15% entangle with no save vs. Celestial Fury's 100% chance to stun but offering a save. Stun is a vastly more powerful effect than Entangle (stunned enemies can't attack or cast spells...), and a 15% chance to trigger with no save is roughly the same as saying "we'll give you 6-7 chances to fail your saving throw." Boosting the SS of Mask's probability of triggering the on-hit effect to say, 25% on the other hand would quickly elevate it into one of the top weapons in the game.


    NeonfiskTJ_HookerRAM021
  • DrayenDrayen Member Posts: 127
    edited October 2013
    I agree, I always thought low damage weapons were pretty horrid.. in all reality, all 1d8 weapons are the best, because they give just as many attacks per round and can be dual wielded (More damage than a 2h).

    2Hs do have a small range bonus, but they are weak for 2 more maximum damage and better enchants (Easier to find higher enchanted 2Handers, their magic is often stronger and all +6 weapons are 2Handers), but i feel like they could use a small boost other than crit chance whihc can be complete negated by helm wearing opponents (All meaningful bosses for exemple..)

    Smaller weapons should get an extra attack per round, maybe half of an attack, backstab bonus sounds great.. 2handers should get more damage via 2h specialization, and maybe some more range to make up for not having a shield...

    Oh yeah, staves suck too, maybe they could get the extra attack per round treatment too..

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Whether or not dual-wield is stronger than two-handed is debatable. You only get one extra attack, at a penalty, which is not quite as strong as it sounds. Also, increased crit range for two-handers.

  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 1,933
    I don't think the dagger needs any more advantage than its speed. As many have observed, the weapon bonus (and abilities) themselves matter more than the pure damage. Giving an extra attack or backstab multiplier would be a big bonus, on par with many magical abilities (and don't get me wrong, a Dagger of Speed that grants extra attacks or a Dagger Backstabber that adds to the backstab bonus sounds like an awesome idea for a MAGIC dagger).
    In the end, unless you have a really cool magical dagger, it SHOULD be a really bad idea to take a dagger to a sword fight.

    vladpen
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    I always assumed the thing that made DW more powerful overall, other than the speed weapon 'glitch' (which one can use to max APR thus radically increasing damage), was the fact that you can use the passive abilities of two weapons at once.

    TJ_Hooker
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190

    I always assumed the thing that made DW more powerful overall, other than the speed weapon 'glitch' (which one can use to max APR thus radically increasing damage), was the fact that you can use the passive abilities of two weapons at once.

    That is certainly a more reasonable assessment than the idea that two weapons are automatically better than one.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    meagloth said:

    I always use daggers or short sword for mt thieves just because it feels so derpy that a thief, who is supposed to have small, concealed weapons, can have this big ass long sword. It just feels cooler to have urge small wepon. Also, if the damage average is 3, compared to a long swords 4, and the best long sword in bg1 is +2, and the best short sword is +3 then:
    3+3 = 6
    4+2= 6,
    6=6.
    Long sword speed factor 3,
    Short sword speed factor 0,

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........

    Maybe not so bad after all.

    But yes, they should be made special.

    best bg1 long sword is +2 +1 so better

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    look at medium damages celestial fury is really low compared to other even 1 handed weapons

    Celestial Fury 1d10+3 5% chance of 20 elec 8.5(9.5)
    Flail of Ages 1d6+6, +10 elemental 19,5
    Staff of the Ram 1d6+12+1d4 18
    Impaler 1d6+13 16,5
    Foebane 2d4+5, +4 magic +6 to undead, shapeshifters, extra-planars 14
    Crom Faeyr 2d4+3, +5 elec 13
    Spectral Brand 1d8+5, +1d6 cold 13
    Angurvadal 1d8+5, +1d4+1 fire 13
    Carsomyr 1d12+6 +6 to chaotic evil 12,5
    Staff of Striking 1d6+9 12,5
    Ice Star 2d4+4, +1d4 cold 11,5
    Ravager 1d10+6 +3d6 damage (save) 11,5
    Spear of Withering 1d6+4, +4 poison 11,5
    Warblade 1d12+4 10,5
    Psion's Blade 1d10+5 10,5
    Dragon's Breath 1d10, +5 elemental 10,5
    Runehammer 2d4+5 +4d4+10 to undead 10
    Purifier 2d4+5 +5 to chaotic evil 10
    Axe of the Unyielding 1d8+5 9,5

  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    @Zur312 I'm not sure that's a completely fair comparison. You're comparing the upgraded TOB versions of +5 and +6 weapons and Underdark weapons to a katana you can get about 15 mins after you leave Chateau Irenicus with a bit of planning.

    The reason Celestial Fury is good is its potential to stun and disable an enemy rather than raw damage output, combined with it being available very early on. The lack of high-end katanas is a bit of a topic in itself though as Hindo's Doom was a bit meh.

    elminsterTJ_Hookerjackjack
  • Cowled_wizardCowled_wizard Member Posts: 119
    I agree that a big reason for not being as popular is the fact that shortswords and daggers have pretty bad on hit effects, but that isnt all.
    The speed factor becomes less and less important as better and better weapons appear.
    backstabbing reasons, are lost in the game when you can backstab with katanas? staffs?

    Its the 3 reasons altogether. Im hoping to see:
    Better Daggers and short swords
    Better Trigger Effects
    Backstab bonus multipliers for daggers.

    Also as a side comment: The entangle effect is pretty bad.

    Anybody tried soultaker (dagger+4) in bg2 (u need to shadowkeeper)

  • wampawampa Member Posts: 68
    Corvino said:

    @Zur312 I'm not sure that's a completely fair comparison. You're comparing the upgraded TOB versions of +5 and +6 weapons and Underdark weapons to a katana you can get about 15 mins after you leave Chateau Irenicus with a bit of planning.

    The reason Celestial Fury is good is its potential to stun and disable an enemy rather than raw damage output, combined with it being available very early on. The lack of high-end katanas is a bit of a topic in itself though as Hindo's Doom was a bit meh.

    Exactly. Attacks against Held enemies auto-hit. They fail one save, they eat several rounds of massive damage.


    Also as a side comment: The entangle effect is pretty bad.

    I'm pretty sure Entangle is a hold-style effect, and thus attacks against Entangled enemies auto-hit. (It may be that SSoM+4 actually applies a Web effect, not sure). Again, since attacks against Held/Webbed/Stunned enemies auto-hit, this is an extremely powerful effect, especially in combination with say, Kundane in the off-hand for extra APR. It's been a while since I played ToB.

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 771
    Entangle is it's own effect, as far as I know. I may be confusing with IWD but I know that you can't even select characters who are webbed, whereas entangled characters can still cast, shoot weapons, TALK...

  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    @wampa I believe the entangle is the same as the spell Entangle, so it doesn't hold them but only reduces their movement to 0 for the duration. I poked around in NI and it looks like they also receive a penalty of 2 to their AC while they're entangled (same as the spell).

    wampa
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    Corvino said:

    @Zur312 I'm not sure that's a completely fair comparison. You're comparing the upgraded TOB versions of +5 and +6 weapons and Underdark weapons to a katana you can get about 15 mins after you leave Chateau Irenicus with a bit of planning.

    The reason Celestial Fury is good is its potential to stun and disable an enemy rather than raw damage output, combined with it being available very early on. The lack of high-end katanas is a bit of a topic in itself though as Hindo's Doom was a bit meh.

    this is what i am saying low damage but great weapon from usability point of view

  • wampawampa Member Posts: 68
    edited October 2013
    @nano thanks for the info. that is a truly horrible on-hit effect then. ugh. gotta change it to a web effect! (and boost the probability to 20-25%)

    nano
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    @wampa Now you've made it into the Stupefier :P

    I'm curious whether the 2 AC penalty stacks. If it does, after a few hits you will be in auto-hit territory anyways. Of course they can still hit back which makes it inferior to hold, defensively. I don't know enough about NI to tell whether it's a stacking effect, however.

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    If somebody's entangled, you can walk out of sight and hide. Backstab time!

    KaigenEudaemonium
  • wampawampa Member Posts: 68
    edited October 2013
    @nano I'll settle for CF's stun component!

    I actually haven't gotten to use The Stupifier in my BG:EE games yet. The only person in my party with the proficiency in my BG:EE party is Viconia, and her fragile HP mandates she stay off the frontline.

    I'm really a BG2 player and have been playing a Sorcerer, which has been painfully boring for BG1 so far. Way too much dart usage and not enough blowing stuff up. Should get better once I get my second level 3 spell, but...

    I strongly doubt the AC penalty stacks. Also keep in mind that since the effect expires after 4 rounds and only triggers on 15% of all hits, so even if it did stack it probably wouldn't stack more than once or twice. Also there's a HUGE difference between AC penalty and auto-hit. Auto-hit means your OTHER, non-fighter characters with truly mediocre Thac0 can easily stack the damage. Consider backstabs, attacks from poisoned weapons, or a Shapechange: Mind Flayer for fun ideas.

  • KaigenKaigen Member Posts: 1,567

    If somebody's entangled, you can walk out of sight and hide. Backstab time!

    Or else pull back and have everyone pick them off with ranged weapons. Four rounds of attacking with impunity is pretty nice.

    Schneidend
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    @wampa Yeah, that's the idea - with enough AC penalties, your teammates will auto-hit (more or less, they can still miss on a 1 but they can also crit). I do know how AC works, thanks :p You're right that 15% is quite low though, which means it's reputation for suckitude is probably well-deserved.

    Usually non-stacking effects come from a "protection from x" effect which I did not see so tentatively it looks like it might stack. I did a quick test with Entangle the spell and it looks like that one does stack. It's actually... surprisingly effective. Although I'm not sold on the sword this discussion certainly opened my eyes to the possibilities of Entangle! I've probably been unfair on low-level druids because I haven't been making good use of the spell. My biggest gripe is the +3 save which means it gets obsolete pretty quickly compared to Web's kickass -2, on top of Web's superior holding effect. But Web is one of the best spells anyways so it's not entirely a fair comparison and you do get Entangle right from level 1. I kind of want to play an Avenger druid now.

    Hmm, this discussion has strayed a little bit. I'm starting to sound like Jan here so I'll stop rambling.

  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    Aranthys said:

    In BG1 :
    1 - Shortsword have a very low weapon speed factor, ensuring your backstabbing business goes smoothly.
    2 - Dagger of venom. 'nuff said
    3 - The +3 shortsword is the best 1 handed weapon in the game for a thief.

    I see your "+3 Short Sword is the best" and raise you a +2 Varscona or +3 Twinkle.

    EudaemoniumKaigenTJ_HookerFenghoang
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    @Southpaw But what if you're Eeeeeeeeeeeevil?

  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    Or a +3 Icingdeath, assuming non-good alignment.

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