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Daggers and Shortswords are awful

Not sure if this has been said in the past, i know its a cry in the dark but i would really like to find some use for them.
- Their damage sucks,
- Weapon options suck (kundahar being the only one commonly used... maybe mask one also)

Some suggestions:
- Increase backstab multiplier (for example) : +1 if shortsword, +2 if dagger , (short sword of backstabbing would get +2)
- Some really cool specials (extra attacks per round, huge poison damage over time, big aditional damage, etc)

As of now, unless you want a challenge, nobody uses them, Any ideas?

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Comments

  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    Maybe have dual wielding receive a reduced penalty, or even far enough to go into a bonus, for using a Short Sword/Dagger Off-Hand...

    alnairGrum
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    Nordom said:

    IMHO thief (or assassin) should be able to put ***** into daggers.

    Maybe not Grandmaster for regular thieves...

    But I think Fighter/Thief could probably make sense with Grandmastery in Short Swords and/or Daggers.

  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    More options in BG2 would be appreciated, especially seeing as we're getting a shiny new thief. Aside from Shortsword of Mask, Kundane and Dagger of the Star there are few exceptional melee shortswords & daggers in BG2. In BG1 I'd actually say they're not bad though. You can get a +2 shortsword and dagger very early on, with a +3 shortsword available and the dagger of venom being great as well.

    Throwing daggers now get bonus strength damage though, so can be pretty deadly in the hands of a strong character, especially if you combine it with something like the firetooth dagger which does 2d4+3 damage and extra fire damage anyway.

    JuliusBorisovKaigenTJ_Hooker
  • Cowled_wizardCowled_wizard Member Posts: 119
    Some great ideas! I specially like the putting specialization on shortsword and daggers (maybe only on daggers)... that is another way to give extra attacks per round (if only non fighters could get them: see swashbuckler, 2 stars, doesnt get +0.5apr) . It could also be like: swashbuckler can put 5 in dagger rest thieves can only put 2.

    I dont feel this is about min max, but about making them a valid choice for many characters.. it is very rare to see any player using daggers for any character if they can use a 1d8 weapon.

    Throwing daggers is still one attack per round? 2d4+3+str comparable to tuigan (3apr) ?

    I agree that in bg1 thaco is quite important and a +3 over a +2 might be worthwhile, but in bg2 that isnt the case.

  • AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 715
    In BG1 :
    1 - Shortsword have a very low weapon speed factor, ensuring your backstabbing business goes smoothly.
    2 - Dagger of venom. 'nuff said
    3 - The +3 shortsword is the best 1 handed weapon in the game for a thief.

    JuliusBorisovelminsterEntropyXII
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Dagger of Venoms is very powerful
    Shortsword of backstabbing is pretty good too.

    TethorilofLathanderEntropyXIISouthpaw
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,068
    Iirc, Shorswords are 1d6, right? That means 3 damage average to a longswiords 4. The difference is not that big in the end.

    AstroBryGuy
  • KolonKuKolonKu Member Posts: 87
    In the 3rd Edition, I believe dual wielding came with less penalties if the offhand weapon was of a small/light weapon type (dagger, shortsword). Maybe that could be applied to BGEE as well.

    AntonFredjoConjurerDragon
  • DelvarianDelvarian Member Posts: 1,232
    I think thieves should get more pips in daggers, and that only daggers and shorts words should be allowed for backstabbing and as offhand weapons when dual wielding.

    BelgarathMTHJuliusBorisovAntonronaldo
  • FelspawnFelspawn Member Posts: 161
    Joey said:

    We could steal a feature from 3rd Edition and have dexterity give a bonus to daggers/short swords, instead of strength. That would be effective.

    this is honestly a great idea. its always been a disappointment that an agile swordsman in 2E still needs a lot of strength when something like weapons finesse from 3E works so well to make it less important. since you cant have feats in 2E why not make short swords and daggers work like bows and use dex to determine thac0

    Delvarian
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,611
    @Delvarian, I agree with the sense of that. Backstabbing with a quarter staff just seems kind of ridiculous to me. You could make the argument that bludgeoning over the head with a small blunt object like a light hammer also makes "backstabbing" sense, but, the whole idea of sneaking up behind someone presumes no or very light armor (really should be no armor - leather creaks), and a small weapon (large heavy weapons increase your weight, making your footsteps heavier).

    I don't think they'll change any game mechanics, though. So, there's rarely a reason to choose dagger or shortsword over bigger weapons, other than roleplaying flavor (except maybe for that Dagger of Venom in BG1.)

    JuliusBorisovAnton
  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742
    daggers have some of the best negative status effects in the games

    dagger of venom, stiletto demarchess, pixie prick, dagger of the star

    but i agree, shortswords aren't great

  • Cowled_wizardCowled_wizard Member Posts: 119
    Backstabbing only for daggers and shortswords would definetly make them much more interesting.

    Currently im a solo run with a halfing fight-thief multi (cheated to shadowkeeper to fighter assasin) that can only use daggers and short swords (specifically short sword main hand and dagger of hand: go regis!)
    Also , can only use armor he can use to sneak with... no full plate ever.

    those daggers you said mjs are %chance weapons , so im not so sure how good they are)

    A question: Early bg2: short sword+4mask or kundahar as main hand (off hand Must be a dagger)

  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 679
    Trying to balance weaponry in a computer RPG isn't ever going to work very well because computer RPG's ignore huge aspects of P&P roleplaying.

    In P&P roleplaying a dagger has the advantage of being readily concealable so you can take it into social situations where a large sword just wouldn't be appropriate. If a fight breaks out then certainly a long sword is better than a dagger. But a dagger is a hell of a lot better than nothing.

    BG doesn't have any of these subtleties. You can carry a whole arsenal of weapons wherever you want. You can wear your armor 24/7 with no difficulties. So all the advantages of having a small weapon are lost.

    But personally it's best to accept this as a limitation of computer RPGs, rather than try to artificially increase dagger/short sword damage to make them equivalent in a fight to bigger weapons.

    Plus, as Corvino pointed out, weapons are good/bad primarily due to which particular weapons are available in BG. But I'm okay with this - I prefer to have this kind of diversity than a world where everything has to be exactly equal.

    atcDaveelminsterSliceofhell
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190


    As of now, unless you want a challenge, nobody uses them, Any ideas?

    Eh, what? I use daggers and short swords all the time. Dagger of Venom, Longtooth, Short Sword +2, all potent and not that hard to find. Once a Thief gets a x3 multiplier and a strength boosting item or Gauntlets of Weapon Specialization, a backstab with a +2 weapon is monstrously lethal. A crit backstab with the +2 short sword from Montaron in my current game does upwards of 80 damage. With Single Weapon Style, he crits fairly often.

    elminsterKaigenRnRClown
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,415
    scriver said:

    Iirc, Shorswords are 1d6, right? That means 3 damage average to a longswiords 4. The difference is not that big in the end.

    Especially once magic, strength, specialization, etc.. bonuses are factored in.

    For a backstabber, I would certainly take a short sword over a long sword. The expected damage is only one less, and the speed factor is 2 better. If you're trying to backstab the enemy mage, you want to get the hit in before the spell goes off!

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    I would love to see that implemented, @AstroBryGuy. Dual-wielding is just way too strong in BG, especially with the ability to off-hand a scimitar that gives you more attacks. Can you still dual-wield a flail in one hand and a morningstar in the other, though? One's larger/heavier than the other, I imagine.

    Laflamme
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,415
    edited October 2013

    I would love to see that implemented, @AstroBryGuy. Dual-wielding is just way too strong in BG, especially with the ability to off-hand a scimitar that gives you more attacks. Can you still dual-wield a flail in one hand and a morningstar in the other, though? One's larger/heavier than the other, I imagine.

    @Schneidend - No, because morning stars and flails are both "Medium" sized weapons in 2E. 2E had weapon size classes of Small, Medium, Large, Giant, and Huge. A normal human can wield a Medium sized weapon in one hand, so his off-hand weapon would need to be Small (and a human needs two hands to wield a Large weapon, so no dual-wielding there). A halfling could only wield Small weapons with one-hand, so he couldn't dual-wield with a long sword (which would be two-handed for him). The halfling could dual wield with a short sword in his primary hand and a dagger off-hand.

  • KaigenKaigen Member Posts: 1,567
    Put me in with the "what are you talking about, these weapons are great" crowd. Dagger of Venom is reason enough to have someone using daggers in BG1, not to mention Werebane, and the easy availability of the short sword +2 makes them very viable. I'm playing a Blade right now that's using short swords because my limited pips meant only being able to have one melee proficiency with two weapon fighting, and dual-wielding short swords is a good option in BG1.

    As far as BG2 goes, you have easy access to +3 daggers and short swords, and you can get the Short Sword of the Mask any time you have the gold and the urge to wander over to Watcher's Keep.

  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    The problem with BG2 shortswords is the few exceptional ones compared to a lot of other weapons. While Kundane is a great offhand, Shortsword of Mask is the only good mainhand really. There are easy-to-get +3s, and a +4 but very few that have elemental damage, resistances, on-use abilities and things that really make unique weapons.

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Admittedly, BG2's shortswords are indeed a bit lackluster. Hopefully, EE has come to the rescue in this regard. BG2 has awesome daggers, though, like Pixie Prick and Firetooth.

  • KaigenKaigen Member Posts: 1,567
    Really, though, that just puts them in the same boat as the other weapon categories that only really have one or two exceptional examples.

    (I will give a shout out to Arbane, immunity to hold person and on-use Haste is pretty nice)

    Time4Tiddy
  • InfiltratorInfiltrator Member Posts: 121
    While they are fairly balanced in BG1 I cant think of any reason to use ANY dagger in BG2. I'll just backstab with mah.. Staff? ;/

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