In the 3rd Edition, I believe dual wielding came with less penalties if the offhand weapon was of a small/light weapon type (dagger, shortsword). Maybe that could be applied to BGEE as well.
Actually, 2E has a similar rule, but it completely disallowed wielding medium sized (or larger) weapons in the off-hand:
"When using a second weapon in his off-hand, a character is limited in his weapon choice. His principal weapon can be whatever he chooses, provided it can be wielded with one hand. The second weapon must be smaller in size and weight than the character's main weapon (though a dagger can always be used as a second weapon, even if the primary weapon is also a dagger). A fighter can use a long sword and a short sword, or a long sword and a dagger, but he cannot use two long swords."
This is not completely true. When style specializations were introduced (Fighter's Handbook? Its been a while...) two weapon style specialization removed that restriction. BG makes two weapon fighting without the style specialization even more difficult than core rules, so the restriction of light weapons to off hand use, for non-specialist dual wielders, becomes an irrelevant restriction.
Admittedly, BG2's shortswords are indeed a bit lackluster. Hopefully, EE has come to the rescue in this regard. BG2 has awesome daggers, though, like Pixie Prick and Firetooth.
Pixie Prick is pretty meh. Gives a +6 to save against the sleep.
My favorite shortsword is Lloth's Cruel Sting from IWD2, which webs and poisons its target. I had a halfling fighter/thief who always did quite well with short swords and never had a problem with them. *shrug* Everybody has to be somewhere, I guess.
I would love to see that implemented, @AstroBryGuy. Dual-wielding is just way too strong in BG, especially with the ability to off-hand a scimitar that gives you more attacks. Can you still dual-wield a flail in one hand and a morningstar in the other, though? One's larger/heavier than the other, I imagine.
@Schneidend - No, because morning stars and flails are both "Medium" sized weapons in 2E. 2E had weapon size classes of Small, Medium, Large, Giant, and Huge. A normal human can wield a Medium sized weapon in one hand, so his off-hand weapon would need to be Small (and a human needs two hands to wield a Large weapon, so no dual-wielding there). A halfling could only wield Small weapons with one-hand, so he couldn't dual-wield with a long sword (which would be two-handed for him). The halfling could dual wield with a short sword in his primary hand and a dagger off-hand.
In addition it should be added that in 3,5 pnp there is a weapon type called "light flail" which is indeed of small size and could be dualwielded.
...Just for completeness of information I guess. It's not reallly relevant.
Admittedly, BG2's shortswords are indeed a bit lackluster. Hopefully, EE has come to the rescue in this regard. BG2 has awesome daggers, though, like Pixie Prick and Firetooth.
Pixie Prick is pretty meh. Gives a +6 to save against the sleep.
Huh. I thought it was just a straight save. Is that a hidden value, or is it in the description?
My favorite shortsword is Lloth's Cruel Sting from IWD2, which webs and poisons its target. I had a halfling fighter/thief who always did quite well with short swords and never had a problem with them. *shrug* Everybody has to be somewhere, I guess.
Yes! That thing is beautiful in the hands of a duergar Rogue. Sneak Attack. Invisiblility. Sneak Attack.
Admittedly, BG2's shortswords are indeed a bit lackluster. Hopefully, EE has come to the rescue in this regard. BG2 has awesome daggers, though, like Pixie Prick and Firetooth.
Pixie Prick is pretty meh. Gives a +6 to save against the sleep.
Huh. I thought it was just a straight save. Is that a hidden value, or is it in the description?
My favorite shortsword is Lloth's Cruel Sting from IWD2, which webs and poisons its target. I had a halfling fighter/thief who always did quite well with short swords and never had a problem with them. *shrug* Everybody has to be somewhere, I guess.
Yes! That thing is beautiful in the hands of a duergar Rogue. Sneak Attack. Invisiblility. Sneak Attack.
The BG2 description never mentioned it. It was a hidden value.
Actually, 2E has a similar rule, but it completely disallowed wielding medium sized (or larger) weapons in the off-hand:
"When using a second weapon in his off-hand, a character is limited in his weapon choice. His principal weapon can be whatever he chooses, provided it can be wielded with one hand. The second weapon must be smaller in size and weight than the character's main weapon (though a dagger can always be used as a second weapon, even if the primary weapon is also a dagger). A fighter can use a long sword and a short sword, or a long sword and a dagger, but he cannot use two long swords."
This is not completely true. When style specializations were introduced (Fighter's Handbook? Its been a while...) two weapon style specialization removed that restriction. BG makes two weapon fighting without the style specialization even more difficult than core rules, so the restriction of light weapons to off hand use, for non-specialist dual wielders, becomes an irrelevant restriction.
Oh, one of the splatbooks? I was quoting the Player's Handbook.
Actually, 2E has a similar rule, but it completely disallowed wielding medium sized (or larger) weapons in the off-hand:
"When using a second weapon in his off-hand, a character is limited in his weapon choice. His principal weapon can be whatever he chooses, provided it can be wielded with one hand. The second weapon must be smaller in size and weight than the character's main weapon (though a dagger can always be used as a second weapon, even if the primary weapon is also a dagger). A fighter can use a long sword and a short sword, or a long sword and a dagger, but he cannot use two long swords."
This is not completely true. When style specializations were introduced (Fighter's Handbook? Its been a while...) two weapon style specialization removed that restriction. BG makes two weapon fighting without the style specialization even more difficult than core rules, so the restriction of light weapons to off hand use, for non-specialist dual wielders, becomes an irrelevant restriction.
Oh, one of the splatbooks? I was quoting the Player's Handbook.
Yeah the core books were modified or superseded many times over the years! It can be hard to answer any question about 2E just because there are so many modifications and exceptions. Of course that's part of the fun too; almost any rule you don't like has a number of variations, you're bound to find something that works for you and your setting.
Depending on you fighting style, bringing a dagger to a sword fight can be pretty useful. Duellists with smallswords or rapiers could use daggers as offhands, though admittedly more for defense than attack.
Zur the average damage on both weapons is 3.5. Mathematically they are identical. The short sword has a broader range, and will do one point more than hammer can do 1/6th of time. But of course, it will also do less than hammer can do 1/6th of the time!
Indeed @nano. I think ZanathKariashi has been quite excited about the possibilities of the Firetooth dagger and Boomerang dagger once BG2:EE becomes available. Given that they set base attacks to 2, and this can be increased with fighter levels, gear and weapon specialisation/grandmastery they become very interesting.
Dagger of the Star is an interesting offhand due to the % chance to become invisible on each hit. Dual-wielding it with a fighter/thief offers the chance of the occasional free invisibilty for extra backstabs.
Probably not as good as a +APR offhand in the grand scheme of things though.
Dagger of the Star is an interesting offhand due to the % chance to become invisible on each hit. Dual-wielding it with a fighter/thief offers the chance of the occasional free invisibilty for extra backstabs.
Probably not as good as a +APR offhand in the grand scheme of things though.
You mean on EVERY hit? Including Mainhand weapon hits? Wow, didnt know that
Pretty much all of the magical daggers in the base game have on-hit effects, which means they aren't particularly suitable as off-hand weapons.
Item Upgrade mod has "Quietus," which increases the backstab multiplier by 1, but that's pretty much only useful for Fighter/Thieves who dual-wield, as Thieves can't get two pips in two-weapon style, and even with a +1 multiplier, backstabbing with a +4 dagger doesn't measure up to backstabbing with a good quarterstaff/katana/scimitar.
Really, though, that just puts them in the same boat as the other weapon categories that only really have one or two exceptional examples.
(I will give a shout out to Arbane, immunity to hold person and on-use Haste is pretty nice)
Arbane in the off-hand is great, especially for a sneaky type when you want to cast Web on those just-out-of-sight enemies (or when worried about Web traps). Of course, that's assuming you didn't "fix" the sword to make it useless against Web.
Improved Haste effectively halves round time, meaning that your mainhand and offhand attacks both double. APR is still capped at 10 though, and it won't stack with GWW/WWA.
Comments
...Just for completeness of information I guess. It's not reallly relevant.
Of course that's part of the fun too; almost any rule you don't like has a number of variations, you're bound to find something that works for you and your setting.
So, sneak up to a sword fight with a dagger.
short sword is 1d6 so medium damage is 3,5
hammer is 1d4+1 so medium damage is 3
hammers sucks more
I'm excited to see what ranged options we get with the new game. Maybe archers will be able to use their skills in certain fights after all.
Probably not as good as a +APR offhand in the grand scheme of things though.
Item Upgrade mod has "Quietus," which increases the backstab multiplier by 1, but that's pretty much only useful for Fighter/Thieves who dual-wield, as Thieves can't get two pips in two-weapon style, and even with a +1 multiplier, backstabbing with a +4 dagger doesn't measure up to backstabbing with a good quarterstaff/katana/scimitar.