Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Dark Dreams of Furiae - a new module for NWN:EE! Buy now
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Daggers and Shortswords are awful

24

Comments

  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 1,933

    KolonKu said:

    In the 3rd Edition, I believe dual wielding came with less penalties if the offhand weapon was of a small/light weapon type (dagger, shortsword). Maybe that could be applied to BGEE as well.

    Actually, 2E has a similar rule, but it completely disallowed wielding medium sized (or larger) weapons in the off-hand:

    "When using a second weapon in his off-hand, a character is limited in his weapon choice. His principal weapon can be whatever he chooses, provided it can be wielded with one hand. The second weapon must be smaller in size and weight than the character's main weapon (though a dagger can always be used as a second weapon, even if the primary weapon is also a dagger). A fighter can use a long sword and a short sword, or a long sword and a dagger, but he cannot use two long swords."
    This is not completely true. When style specializations were introduced (Fighter's Handbook? Its been a while...) two weapon style specialization removed that restriction. BG makes two weapon fighting without the style specialization even more difficult than core rules, so the restriction of light weapons to off hand use, for non-specialist dual wielders, becomes an irrelevant restriction.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,207

    Admittedly, BG2's shortswords are indeed a bit lackluster. Hopefully, EE has come to the rescue in this regard. BG2 has awesome daggers, though, like Pixie Prick and Firetooth.

    Pixie Prick is pretty meh. Gives a +6 to save against the sleep.

    Wilbur
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,009
    My favorite shortsword is Lloth's Cruel Sting from IWD2, which webs and poisons its target. I had a halfling fighter/thief who always did quite well with short swords and never had a problem with them. *shrug* Everybody has to be somewhere, I guess.

  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,068

    I would love to see that implemented, @AstroBryGuy. Dual-wielding is just way too strong in BG, especially with the ability to off-hand a scimitar that gives you more attacks. Can you still dual-wield a flail in one hand and a morningstar in the other, though? One's larger/heavier than the other, I imagine.

    @Schneidend - No, because morning stars and flails are both "Medium" sized weapons in 2E. 2E had weapon size classes of Small, Medium, Large, Giant, and Huge. A normal human can wield a Medium sized weapon in one hand, so his off-hand weapon would need to be Small (and a human needs two hands to wield a Large weapon, so no dual-wielding there). A halfling could only wield Small weapons with one-hand, so he couldn't dual-wield with a long sword (which would be two-handed for him). The halfling could dual wield with a short sword in his primary hand and a dagger off-hand.
    In addition it should be added that in 3,5 pnp there is a weapon type called "light flail" which is indeed of small size and could be dualwielded.

    ...Just for completeness of information I guess. It's not reallly relevant.

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    elminster said:

    Admittedly, BG2's shortswords are indeed a bit lackluster. Hopefully, EE has come to the rescue in this regard. BG2 has awesome daggers, though, like Pixie Prick and Firetooth.

    Pixie Prick is pretty meh. Gives a +6 to save against the sleep.
    Huh. I thought it was just a straight save. Is that a hidden value, or is it in the description?

    My favorite shortsword is Lloth's Cruel Sting from IWD2, which webs and poisons its target. I had a halfling fighter/thief who always did quite well with short swords and never had a problem with them. *shrug* Everybody has to be somewhere, I guess.

    Yes! That thing is beautiful in the hands of a duergar Rogue. Sneak Attack. Invisiblility. Sneak Attack.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,207

    elminster said:

    Admittedly, BG2's shortswords are indeed a bit lackluster. Hopefully, EE has come to the rescue in this regard. BG2 has awesome daggers, though, like Pixie Prick and Firetooth.

    Pixie Prick is pretty meh. Gives a +6 to save against the sleep.
    Huh. I thought it was just a straight save. Is that a hidden value, or is it in the description?

    My favorite shortsword is Lloth's Cruel Sting from IWD2, which webs and poisons its target. I had a halfling fighter/thief who always did quite well with short swords and never had a problem with them. *shrug* Everybody has to be somewhere, I guess.

    Yes! That thing is beautiful in the hands of a duergar Rogue. Sneak Attack. Invisiblility. Sneak Attack.
    The BG2 description never mentioned it. It was a hidden value.

    wampa
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    elminster said:



    The BG2 description never mentioned it. It was a hidden value.

    ... *Vibrates with rage.*

    elminsterWilburFredjoFenghoang
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,415
    atcDave said:

    Actually, 2E has a similar rule, but it completely disallowed wielding medium sized (or larger) weapons in the off-hand:

    "When using a second weapon in his off-hand, a character is limited in his weapon choice. His principal weapon can be whatever he chooses, provided it can be wielded with one hand. The second weapon must be smaller in size and weight than the character's main weapon (though a dagger can always be used as a second weapon, even if the primary weapon is also a dagger). A fighter can use a long sword and a short sword, or a long sword and a dagger, but he cannot use two long swords."

    This is not completely true. When style specializations were introduced (Fighter's Handbook? Its been a while...) two weapon style specialization removed that restriction. BG makes two weapon fighting without the style specialization even more difficult than core rules, so the restriction of light weapons to off hand use, for non-specialist dual wielders, becomes an irrelevant restriction.
    Oh, one of the splatbooks? I was quoting the Player's Handbook.

  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 1,933

    atcDave said:

    Actually, 2E has a similar rule, but it completely disallowed wielding medium sized (or larger) weapons in the off-hand:

    "When using a second weapon in his off-hand, a character is limited in his weapon choice. His principal weapon can be whatever he chooses, provided it can be wielded with one hand. The second weapon must be smaller in size and weight than the character's main weapon (though a dagger can always be used as a second weapon, even if the primary weapon is also a dagger). A fighter can use a long sword and a short sword, or a long sword and a dagger, but he cannot use two long swords."

    This is not completely true. When style specializations were introduced (Fighter's Handbook? Its been a while...) two weapon style specialization removed that restriction. BG makes two weapon fighting without the style specialization even more difficult than core rules, so the restriction of light weapons to off hand use, for non-specialist dual wielders, becomes an irrelevant restriction.
    Oh, one of the splatbooks? I was quoting the Player's Handbook.
    Yeah the core books were modified or superseded many times over the years! It can be hard to answer any question about 2E just because there are so many modifications and exceptions.
    Of course that's part of the fun too; almost any rule you don't like has a number of variations, you're bound to find something that works for you and your setting.

  • WilburWilbur Member Posts: 1,173
    Don't bring a dagger to a sword fight.

    Losgorntbone1
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Wilbur said:

    Don't bring a dagger to a sword fight.

    A fair point. But, then, so is a dagger.

    So, sneak up to a sword fight with a dagger.

    Wilbur
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    Wilbur said:

    Don't bring a dagger to a sword fight.

    Instead, one should use it the night before said fight while your opponent is sleeping.

    elminsterWilburonanWolk
  • doomdoomdoomdoomdoomdoom Member Posts: 89
    If daggers and shortswords are awful, then what do you call clubs and spears?

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,207

    If daggers and shortswords are awful, then what do you call clubs and spears?

    Badass

    KamigoroshiWolk
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    elminster said:

    If daggers and shortswords are awful, then what do you call clubs and spears?

    Badass
    I have to admit, I always kinda thought the Ravager halberd should really be a spear. Its basically a big trident.

    SchneidendelminsterKamigoroshi
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190

    If daggers and shortswords are awful, then what do you call clubs and spears?

    Clubs are pretty awesome now that there's a +2 iteration in Cloakwood and a +1 you can get very early.

  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    Depending on you fighting style, bringing a dagger to a sword fight can be pretty useful. Duellists with smallswords or rapiers could use daggers as offhands, though admittedly more for defense than attack.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    throwing daggers > sling so #1 fail

    short sword is 1d6 so medium damage is 3,5
    hammer is 1d4+1 so medium damage is 3

    hammers sucks more

  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 1,933
    Zur the average damage on both weapons is 3.5. Mathematically they are identical. The short sword has a broader range, and will do one point more than hammer can do 1/6th of time. But of course, it will also do less than hammer can do 1/6th of the time!

    nano
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    Do thrown daggers get the strength bonus? Only in BGEE, right? Will be pretty interesting if they get it in BG2EE.

  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    Indeed @nano. I think ZanathKariashi has been quite excited about the possibilities of the Firetooth dagger and Boomerang dagger once BG2:EE becomes available. Given that they set base attacks to 2, and this can be increased with fighter levels, gear and weapon specialisation/grandmastery they become very interesting.

  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    @Corvino thanks!

    I'm excited to see what ranged options we get with the new game. Maybe archers will be able to use their skills in certain fights after all.

  • Cowled_wizardCowled_wizard Member Posts: 119
    Does any dagger in bg or bg2 have a equipment effect so it will be worthwhile to use is offhand?

  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    Dagger of the Star is an interesting offhand due to the % chance to become invisible on each hit. Dual-wielding it with a fighter/thief offers the chance of the occasional free invisibilty for extra backstabs.

    Probably not as good as a +APR offhand in the grand scheme of things though.

  • Cowled_wizardCowled_wizard Member Posts: 119
    Corvino said:

    Dagger of the Star is an interesting offhand due to the % chance to become invisible on each hit. Dual-wielding it with a fighter/thief offers the chance of the occasional free invisibilty for extra backstabs.

    Probably not as good as a +APR offhand in the grand scheme of things though.

    You mean on EVERY hit? Including Mainhand weapon hits? Wow, didnt know that

  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    @Cowled_Wizard nope, just offhand hits as far as I know. But 2 hits per round with improved haste means the odds aren't terrible.

  • KaigenKaigen Member Posts: 1,567
    Pretty much all of the magical daggers in the base game have on-hit effects, which means they aren't particularly suitable as off-hand weapons.

    Item Upgrade mod has "Quietus," which increases the backstab multiplier by 1, but that's pretty much only useful for Fighter/Thieves who dual-wield, as Thieves can't get two pips in two-weapon style, and even with a +1 multiplier, backstabbing with a +4 dagger doesn't measure up to backstabbing with a good quarterstaff/katana/scimitar.

  • Time4TiddyTime4Tiddy Member Posts: 262
    Kaigen said:

    Really, though, that just puts them in the same boat as the other weapon categories that only really have one or two exceptional examples.

    (I will give a shout out to Arbane, immunity to hold person and on-use Haste is pretty nice)

    Arbane in the off-hand is great, especially for a sneaky type when you want to cast Web on those just-out-of-sight enemies (or when worried about Web traps). Of course, that's assuming you didn't "fix" the sword to make it useless against Web.

  • Cowled_wizardCowled_wizard Member Posts: 119
    Corvino said:

    @Cowled_Wizard nope, just offhand hits as far as I know. But 2 hits per round with improved haste means the odds aren't terrible.

    i thought improved haste meant all attacks except 1 go to mainhand..

  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    Improved Haste effectively halves round time, meaning that your mainhand and offhand attacks both double. APR is still capped at 10 though, and it won't stack with GWW/WWA.

    TJ_HookerWilburJuliusBorisov
Sign In or Register to comment.