Aren't you assuming that "offering suggestions" is used to make Person B feel guilty? And that Person A is in knowledge of it? Is that why you told me i was sounding dodgy? Psychology?
Also, person B is offering feedback.
I'm criticizing.
But you mentioned it only as a sample scenario anyway.
I get what you mean. I was aggressive, i could have said what i said in a totally different manner, without sounding like an infuriated barbarian or so.
Still, if you can manage to bypass my aggressiveness, not necessarily today, just think about the essence of what i said.
P.S. Talking about psychology, i don't suppose you focused on "how i said", and not on "what i said", on purpose eh? o_O
How about HD sprites as DLC? What's your take on that @Dee? That way, it's not really that much of a wasted effort. IMO, I would rather see HD sprite as DLC as we won't ever achieve that in mods; quests, kits, etc I'm sure the modding department could handle most of that. I'm not saying they are unneeded, of course not (the more official content, the better), but I would rather want and hope to see HD sprites as your first DLC. Regarding us being alienated issue, I'm sure we could handle that....more importantly, I'm sure you guys could handle that.
@Illustair Consider the investment of time and resources being described in HD-ifying the sprites. What's paying the bills while they spend a year+ making new sprites? How much are they going to have to charge for that DLC to recoup the investment, and how many people are going to be willing to buy it at any price?
Would it really take that long for option A to be done? Although I'm sure it'll be a difficult task, but I had the impression that it's no where near as difficult as option B that would take a year. How about $5 each and I think it is safe to assume that 80-90% of us would throw in that much just to have HD sprites, would that suffice?
Thing is, like I said, all the effort and money spent to remake each and every single sprite in BG, would be much better spent on anything else. It's just not worth it. And that "DLC" would cost as much as the game, most likely.
So, I never got a clear answer to my proposal. Would it be possible to make new low-definition sprites for new monsters? I don't mean replacing what already exists, just matching some new sprites at the same resolution to the original art style so you can add never-before-seen monsters into the game. Surely this would be only a fraction of the work compared to revamping all of the sprites. The labor involved in creating, say, three new sprites seems completely within reach compared to dozens or hundreds of sprites. You're not risking much alienation because you'd be matching the new sprites to the game's current look at the same low resolution.
So, I never got a clear answer to my proposal. Would it be possible to make new low-definition sprites for new monsters? I don't mean replacing what already exists, just matching some new sprites at the same resolution to the original art style so you can add never-before-seen monsters into the game. Surely this would be only a fraction of the work compared to revamping all of the sprites. The labor involved in creating, say, three new sprites seems completely within reach compared to dozens or hundreds of sprites. You're not risking much alienation because you'd be matching the new sprites to the game's current look at the same low resolution.
Guys... What they are saying is that it was a logistics based decision. And I think it was a sound one.
Maybe they could have devoted more time and resources to it, maybe not. But, really, they are a business. I wouldn't expect sane people to invest so much in such an old game.
My expectations are somewhat up for BGEE II though, now that the value of the asset has been proven.
Perhaps, but you expect that the title "enhanced" would mean some changes to the art assets.
There were changes to art assets. You'll note that the small shields and bucklers are actually round instead of being made of sharp metal garbage, leather armor does not equip human males with football pads, and tower shields are not surfboards. There are also proper female dwarf sprites with no accursed beards.
Perhaps, but you expect that the title "enhanced" would mean some changes to the art assets.
Not really I'd just expect the game to be enhanced in some way. Could be improved item icons, new UI, no loading screens, new kits, new areas, new NPC's, etc.
The source artwork when referring to in game characters and creatures would be the original 3d models from which the sprites were rendered.
Recreating hundreds of models without the original 3d models would require either recreating all the 3d models with a higher polygon counting from scratch or redrawing every sprite animation frame by frame by hand.
I wonder would it still be too hard to make new models and sprites just for the joinable NPC's to make them more unique and/or suit their portraits more?
@RedGuard Well I've said many times that if there is one thing I've never really studied even in its most primitive form, it's programming. So don't take anything I say as gospel.
However from what I gather from what Dee said they wouldn't change the new NPC's much because they don't want anything to greatly deviate from the rest of the art style used. I'm also going to guess if they made some Dorn that was some high end sprite or model the game engine would have to be changed solely to accommodate that and I don't think they would do that unless they intended to make everything high end.
I'm sorry but asking developers to focus on graphic rather than content in a RPG just sounds absurdly to me.
It is debatable if NPCs, or quests, or graphics are more important, but it is a matter of opinion, and keep in mind this is an older game of very high caliber, and huge in size of content.
It might sound absurd to you, but that doesn't mean it is.
Well you're right BG2 already is a huge game and certainly doesn't lack content. If we are talking about were developers are spending the resources, then for the price we are paying, we could definitely expect some improvement on sprites. But that's completely different topic.
@Mornmagor I see your point but we'll agree to disagree. I think it would be cool if the game had a HD update, but not at the cost of adding dozens of hours of new content. I like to get a lot of playtime for my investment of money, because money is tight. There are some games that you sit down and beat in 20 hours or less, and only rarely do I consider them a good investment (Portal was one that qualified, I did play through it twice because I loved it so much).
So, if I'm choosing between a game that offers me hundreds of hours of exciting gameplay, or a game that offers me less than 50 hours of shiny graphics, I'll choose the first one. When I apply that here, I'm weighing new graphics vs. new content (the original game already has hundreds of hours, but it's not likely that I'm going to get tired of it considering how many new games I start). Graphics would be nice, but if they're going to cost so much that we don't get the new content... I'm not interested in that at all.
Hey, if that's what you mean I think that's more feasible. They don't have to overhaul the game engine if the resolution stays the same. You just might get that someday, and I will also think it's very cool. I'm in support of new monsters on a tangential note, which would at least mean adding sprites.
One of the problems I see for upgrading just some models, NPCS for instance, is that the contrast between the new improved sprites and the old ones would be really huge.
The forums would soon be full of people complaining about the "ugly" old sprites and how Overhaul is being incompetent for not upgrading the entire graphic set.
As Master Yoda would say "Do or do not, there's no try"
so its like only canadians can do games as awesome as this in their early careers then. lets make sure overhauls momentum stays as strong as early bioware!
Hey, if that's what you mean I think that's more feasible. They don't have to overhaul the game engine if the resolution stays the same. You just might get that someday, and I will also think it's very cool. I'm in support of new monsters on a tangential note, which would at least mean adding sprites.
Yeah, that is what i meant.
Not HD sprites, just new ones in the same resolution, like the new areas.
The resolution might be the same, but since artists today are more experienced with 3D and stuff, it is quite probable that the new sprites would look better than the old ones anyway. People are better at designing armor today than what they were 14 years ago.
As for people that might prefer the old sprites, i think this could be addressed with impementing it as DLC, with selectable download and install, for option one, or allowing some kind of selection on character creation, for option two.
One of the problems I see for upgrading just some models, NPCS for instance, is that the contrast between the new improved sprites and the old ones would be really huge.
The forums would soon be full of people complaining about the "ugly" old sprites and how Overhaul is being incompetent for not upgrading the entire graphic set.
As Master Yoda would say "Do or do not, there's no try"
I don't quite subscribe to that scenario myself. I'm sure there would be complains much like there is complaints about just about any feature old & new, but I don't quite picture the angry mob you seem to.
Would restricting any new sprite to the same resolution as the old BG sprites not work for keeping quality of a similar level or at least any difference not be immediately apparent?
As far as art style goes I can see the argument and agree somewhat, but I'd imagine that many fans would enjoy seeing something that is representative of their portraits. People seem to hold most of them in high regard. I think with those as guides it would be easier to strive to be in keeping with BG's art style, something I've felt Beamdog generally tried to do when adding other new content.
How about improving the scaling so the sprites don't look too pixelated? This way you don't have to spend so much resources on re creating the artwork.
Anyone know why on the inventory page the sprites look so much better?
Comments
Also, person B is offering feedback.
I'm criticizing.
But you mentioned it only as a sample scenario anyway.
I get what you mean. I was aggressive, i could have said what i said in a totally different manner, without sounding like an infuriated barbarian or so.
Still, if you can manage to bypass my aggressiveness, not necessarily today, just think about the essence of what i said.
P.S. Talking about psychology, i don't suppose you focused on "how i said", and not on "what i said", on purpose eh? o_O
The last one was a joke.
It's just not worth it. And that "DLC" would cost as much as the game, most likely.
So, I never got a clear answer to my proposal. Would it be possible to make new low-definition sprites for new monsters? I don't mean replacing what already exists, just matching some new sprites at the same resolution to the original art style so you can add never-before-seen monsters into the game. Surely this would be only a fraction of the work compared to revamping all of the sprites. The labor involved in creating, say, three new sprites seems completely within reach compared to dozens or hundreds of sprites. You're not risking much alienation because you'd be matching the new sprites to the game's current look at the same low resolution.
C'mon, say it's possible. ^_~
Maybe they could have devoted more time and resources to it, maybe not. But, really, they are a business. I wouldn't expect sane people to invest so much in such an old game.
My expectations are somewhat up for BGEE II though, now that the value of the asset has been proven.
Recreating hundreds of models without the original 3d models would require either recreating all the 3d models with a higher polygon counting from scratch or redrawing every sprite animation frame by frame by hand.
Neither of the options is cheap or easy to do.
However from what I gather from what Dee said they wouldn't change the new NPC's much because they don't want anything to greatly deviate from the rest of the art style used. I'm also going to guess if they made some Dorn that was some high end sprite or model the game engine would have to be changed solely to accommodate that and I don't think they would do that unless they intended to make everything high end.
It might sound absurd to you, but that doesn't mean it is.
So, if I'm choosing between a game that offers me hundreds of hours of exciting gameplay, or a game that offers me less than 50 hours of shiny graphics, I'll choose the first one. When I apply that here, I'm weighing new graphics vs. new content (the original game already has hundreds of hours, but it's not likely that I'm going to get tired of it considering how many new games I start). Graphics would be nice, but if they're going to cost so much that we don't get the new content... I'm not interested in that at all.
In this subject, i guess it sucks to be me, since i was the one that wanted to see new sprites(not HD sprites, mind you) :x
The forums would soon be full of people complaining about the "ugly" old sprites and how Overhaul is being incompetent for not upgrading the entire graphic set.
As Master Yoda would say "Do or do not, there's no try"
Not HD sprites, just new ones in the same resolution, like the new areas.
The resolution might be the same, but since artists today are more experienced with 3D and stuff, it is quite probable that the new sprites would look better than the old ones anyway. People are better at designing armor today than what they were 14 years ago.
As for people that might prefer the old sprites, i think this could be addressed with impementing it as DLC, with selectable download and install, for option one, or allowing some kind of selection on character creation, for option two.
Would restricting any new sprite to the same resolution as the old BG sprites not work for keeping quality of a similar level or at least any difference not be immediately apparent?
As far as art style goes I can see the argument and agree somewhat, but I'd imagine that many fans would enjoy seeing something that is representative of their portraits. People seem to hold most of them in high regard. I think with those as guides it would be easier to strive to be in keeping with BG's art style, something I've felt Beamdog generally tried to do when adding other new content.
Anyone know why on the inventory page the sprites look so much better?