@Treyolen you mentioned suits, which also supports my idea of just a simple contract (or even w/o one just per the EULA), where it gives the consumers the right to play the game to their heart's content regardless of the state of the company.
This discussion may not change anyone's mind (but the one who's already changed their mind, heh) but where else would anyone have found such a robust and interesting discussion?! Great ideas here and I'm pleasantly surprised at the creativity and respectful attitude of you people.
I hope Beamdog is keeping a close watch on this thread, if only to use some of these ideas in their future titles.
My 2 cents for Beamdog - A lost sale. I was excited for this and I wanted this, but I will not be buying it. I'm mentioning it here because I will not be pirating it, and since I won't be pirating it you would not know you had a lost sale. So if you have anyone keeping track of purchases and lost sales, please make sure this counts as a lost sale due to DRM and not a lost sale due to piracy. I wish you luck, Baldur's Gate is a great franchise.
I have BG,BG2,IWD,IWD2,PT,NWN on CD releases and from GOG. I have my CDs, installation keys, and GOG downloads, none of which require connection to a third party to install. Witcher 2 released on GOG DRM free and had very good selling numbers, and that game cost a lot more. I own Witcher 1 and Witcher 2 on disk and through GOG, neither require activation. Legend of Grimrock also had a DRM free version on release and sold very well, which I also bought. I mention Grimrock since it's closer in price to BG:EE. I would have not bought those 3 games if they had DRM, unless it was on a ridiculous 75% off Steam sale AFTER the list price had already come down, or the retail version dropped to about 25% of the original price. Even with the summer sale at gamersgate, I won't buy anything that isn't DRM free. There are just way to many clients/accounts to have to deal with. I won't join UPlay, not even for those $1 games they had. I won't buy anything using Origin besides Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3 (I'm hooked on those series). I'm not sure what I will do about Dragon Age 3. Bioware and Blizzard are now off my most wanted list.
This is a remake of an old title selling for $20. I've walked away from games with DRM selling for $5, even $1 on UPlay. DRM does not stop pirating, even Ubisoft is still complaining about it with their draconian DRM. Atari and WotC both have DRM free versions of games on GOG, so I don't buy that it has to have DRM.
For the record, I don't consider CD checks or installation keys DRM because as long as I keep my disks and my installation keys, I will not be prevented from playing my games.
It is an easy step for us to release a DRM free version if we are ever forced to shut down. We will follow through and ensure our purchasers have the rights they paid for.
Sure, as long as you are in a financial and legal position to do so, and that we are able to receive the patch during the time you are still able to provide it. I'll buy into DRM when it's proven to be effective. I'll buy this when the paying customer is trusted and the DRM is removed, or if you are ever forced to shutdown...
@Illydth - This is regarding an older post of yours in this thread. Look into CD Projekt Red. They get it. They aren't concerned about the pirates because they understand DRM does not work, and they are not paying customers. Not every pirated copy is a lost sale. They are concerned about their paying customers and give them a great product that works with no hassles. Of course they don't want their games pirated, but their energy is spent where it matters.
It's also ridiculous how much money is spent on DRM to have it broken in a day. Put that money into the game, not into something that doesn't work.
I still don't understand how Beamdog's instance of authentication is lumped in with Ubisoft and Steam and various other entities using heavy DRM systems. The DRM used here is essentially a receipt, a proof of purchase. It's also a lifetime warranty, and unlike most warranties, it's one that's really easy to use. You have to create an account to purchase the game; all you have to do is log in to your account when you install the game, and that's it.
It's also entirely possible that Beamdog will release their no-DRM patch in a year or two, once the game has had sufficient commercial success that they can afford to do away with it. But I really don't see how authenticating a purchase is a bad thing.
@Aosaw We're only lumping this in with Ubisoft and Steam in so far as it shares the same basic function, Digitally Managing the Rights of someone other than the owner. We get that this is much less restrictive. The idea is to get Beamdog to drop DRM altogether. Authentication servers add cost and complexity to a system that doesn't need it. This is energy that could be used to generate new content.
And the possibility that Beamdog will release a patch is just that, a possibility. If Trent is so sure that it will be released, let's see that spelled out in the EULA. But I really doubt the company will be willing to make that level of commitment. It's much easier to renege on a post in a message board than that contract. I doubt they will renege. But as it stands, we as consumers will have no recourse whatsoever if they do change their minds.
@Aosaw sometimes we just got to let it go... His conviction is anti DRM - which is not stupid. What is most questionnable is the good he is doing by not participating in BeamDog success. As you said, the DRM is nowhere near Ubisoft or Valve, and it's a bad call to penalize a company like BD that advocates ligh DRM. It's a minor hindrance. The world is not in black and white, but in thousands of grays. But if it's a minor hindrance he can't take, well, no BGEE for him I suppose =/ It's sad that, in a sense, his actions only serve DRM strong hypothesis. "Since customers hate DRM anyway, those that will buy the game won't be bothered by HEAVY drm !" and that hypothesis I want to prove wrong.
And this DRM won't be "broken" in the sense that BD will add patches and release. Pirates will crack once, twice, maybe five times but won't bother any further. True fans will play the game again and again and won't mind paying and the authentification. I don't think BD will release a no-autentification patch anytime soon
Actually, lets stop calling that DRM. It's just an internet dependant installation. IDI. That's cooler for a name, isn't it ?
@Medillen How am I not participating in Beamdogs success? Does actively participating in their community and trying to offer feedback exclude me? How am I penalizing them? Did I penalize them with my money when I purchased? Did I penalize them when I liked this on Facebook? Did I penalize them when I told my friends about the project?
Seriously, the question isn't facetious. How have I penalized this company? You may be confusing me with the crowd over in the Steam thread that says release it their way or else. I have never said that. I'm just encouraging a company that I want to succeed to do the things that I think will better their chances of success.
@Treyolen i was answearing another post (jalister), not yours hahaha But I took time and you posted before me. You are the very opposing of what I describe. Despite having Anti DRM conviction, you know about compromise
I do believe its worth pointing out that Beamdog went out of their way to make this DRM as minimal as possible. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Beamdog is under contract to have some form of DRM in place, but were given leeway on the amount and type. Its important to place any and all blame for the presence of DRM on the truly responsible party, not Beamdog.
Given the potential for the truly intrusive level of DRM that could have been implemented, and also considering the popularity of the title, I think an opportunity may have emerged for compromise between the pirate and the DRM-happy developer. Even if the presence of DRM isn't ideal, this level of it on such a popular and beloved title is absolutely a major step in the right direction.
Show some solidarity: don't pirate it. Just buy it. Deal with the one time activation and make your voice heard elsewhere. Let the DRM industry know that if they keep their mitts off our stuff, we'll be more amenable to buying it. Beamdog understands this, and I think had they the ability, there would be zero DRM in place.
From Trent's Twitter:
I agree 100% that DRM is never a solution. DRM is a part of the games industry and most business deals have some mention of it in the terms
Personally, I think DRM doesn't work. Either you spend forever developing an ironclad, bad-user experience DRM or you go halfway.
We're still sorting through DRM options, but we're trying for a lightweight system which meets the requirement and doesn't hassle the user.
@Treyolen I get what you're saying about it being fundamentally the same, and I think that trying to convince them to shift that perspective is a good thing. What I don't understand is when people get so upset about it that they refuse to buy and play a game that everyone knows is a good game (because we've played it before ), solely on the basis of Beamdog's minimal level of authentication.
I also get concerned when people start talking about only buying the product after the company has failed and been forced to release the no-DRM patch prior to shutting down their servers. This kind of logic doesn't help the developers, and it doesn't change their minds either. It assumes that the developers are lying, and it also "hopes" for the developers to fail. Both cases rub me the wrong way, and I think you can understand why.
I'm all for intelligent discourse on the subject; I think this topic, although it has gone around in circles a dozen times ("DRM is bad!" "You could hardly call this DRM!" "It still obstructs the rights of the consumer!" "Developers have rights too!" "DRM is bad!" and so on), has raised some very good points and, in small ways, changed people's minds on the subject (and I suspect the developers have been listening intently as well). What I'm opposed to is people declaring that they will never buy the game because of a one-time ping to the servers.
@Medillen Than I do most emphatically apologize sir! I often think my skin may be too thin to exist on this internet plane of existence. But this is a subject that I care about and want to be part of the discussion.
@Rythgar I for one do acknowledge the step in the right direction and want to encourage more. Believe me, I know who the DRM proponents are in this equation and I despise them. If I thought Beamdog was part of the problem I would not support them in any way. But I do want to loudly encourage Beamdog to continue to advocate for the consumer. If I could be in those meetings to speak for myself I would! But I'm hoping Trent and his compatriots will continue to serve in our stead and advance the agenda. This was a small victory. But if progress toward our side ends here it will be lost very quickly to the opposing ideology.
@Aosaw I understand your point completely. But I do consider this an ongoing struggle against an ideology and I won't condemn those who take a hard line stand.
@Treyolen I only condemn them as far as they're condemning the developers (with the kind of rhetoric I mentioned above). Everyone has a right to their point of view. I grow weary of it when it starts to sound like an attack.
@Treyolen I think its important to remember that this IS a war of ideology, and one cannot always win those by sticking stubbornly to his guns, regardless of others. If we want to be free of DRM, we have to win hearts and minds, especially the hearts and minds of the developers. We have to make sure that those who want to use excessive and outright insulting levels of DRM understand that they have no friends: not among the buyers or the makers.
If we demonstrate that piracy is unacceptable among our own, then perhaps those who use DRM will finally stop feeling threatened. Probably a pipe dream, as corporations tend to be paranoid, but at least give the game maker a reason to trust us. Too often these same forums give birth to comments like "DRM? F*** that! I'm pirating!" rather than "DRM? Too bad, I won't be buying it." The former comment encourages DRM, the latter scares them silly.
Ubisoft has some of the most invasive and atrocious DRM solutions to date (I don't buy their products because of their DRM). So essentially the CEO is admitting that their DRM has a 5-7% success rate. *two thumbs up*
@Rythgar You make very valid points. My counter to that will sound a little like "Get off my lawn!" But I'll do it anyway I remember when games were made by gamers for gamers. I think that was even a slogan of a developer. I still think most developers are the same. The problem is at the publishers. Publishers, like Bobby Kotick, are not typically gamers and value only the bottom line. This is what makes them so risk averse and distrustful. I in turn do not trust them. They are the problem in the games industry and the real perpetrators of DRM.
I realize that not every developer is on my side and that not every publisher is against me. But those are typically the battle lines. I would love to see Beamdog eventually elevate themselves to the level of a CD Projekt RED where they can be self sufficient and call their own shots. I also realize that the contractual issues surrounding a re-release are antithetical to this goal. But if this experiment succeeds they will acquire more and more clout within the industry and I will continue to encourage them to embrace the community instead of fearing it.
This is all my opinion of course. Now, GET OFF MY LAWN!
@Lediath Please don't bring up Ubisoft. That CEO is a blatant liar and uses statistics in the most dishonest way imaginable. They murdered my absolute favorite franchise, HOMM. Now I've been forced to boycott those releases due to what is truly crippling DRM. Sometimes I cry a little when I think about it and my wife thinks I'm really weird.
@Treyolen yeah... you're weird, but I think we're all a little weird about things which we are passionate about. Allow me to share my tales of woe with Ubisoft.
Prince of Persia The Sands of Time is my all time favorite reboot. It does so many things right in so many special ways that I fell head over heels for it and finished the game in two sittings. Then came the rehashes and sequels and followups to cash in, none of which could capture the magic of the first in my eyes. After the most recent game (Forgotten Sands) I swore of Ubisoft for good. I actually enjoyed the latest two quite a bit, however the final straw for me was when I was at the final boss in Forgotten Sands.
It was Friday night I was having some trouble tackling him as I was tried so I decided to table the game and finish it when I was fresh over the weekend, uPlay was down for over 48 hours that weekend and I was unable to even boot the game w/o being kicked. I ended up finishing the game on Monday after work, despite the decent gameplay, that bitter taste of "why can't I play my single player game?" stuck w/ me and I couldn't even bring myself to watch the ending cinematic. Ctrl+Alt+Delete and I never looked back...
@Kyon I hate DRM in all forms. But a launch window DRM that gets removed in future patches and an updated installer after a certain period would be a compromise I could definitely get behind.
Ubisoft probably has the most draconian DRM out right now, which they claimed was a success. Now they claim a 95% piracy rate. That's a pretty strong example of how useless DRM is. Of course Ubisoft is too dense to realize that their DRM drove people to piracy. I am not a customer or pirate of Ubisoft games.
I still haven't played Bioshock 1 & 2, Dead Space 1 & 2, Mirror's Edge, Batman Arkham Asylum/City, Assassins Creeds, and many others. Some of those games are very old, and still have online activation or worse, GFWL. I might have bought some of those at $5, but then I think, if this is only $5 why does it still need DRM.
DRM at launch is acceptable? Any idea how many games are cracked within 24 hours? How many games are cracked before release? If the early download of the BG:EE preorders is complete with the authentication servers off, this may be another prerelease crack.
I wish no ill will to Beamdog, and have wished them luck with BG:EE. Any comment about buying the game if they are ever forced to shutdown was a joke. How could I buy the game after they shutdown. The only reason I spoke up is that I do want this to succeed, and I would like to be a part of it. I want them to see my post, and if they are or planning to present a DRM free case, I would be one more vote. If it was DRM free, this would be a first day purchase. Now it will be a no sale, or sale after DRM is removed and priced down at least 30%, or maybe even with DRM in I will buy this on a 75% off sale. This has been my experience over the last several years of buying.
Let me throw a few more cents in. I bought Legend of Grimrock twice. The first was a preorder through GOG since it was going to be DRM free, and Grimrock's site was selling it through Steam. A few days later while still in preorder, they also added a DRM free version through the Humble Store along with the Steam key. I preorder a second copy direct from the developer to support their trust, and I kept my preorder with GOG to support them for getting the game DRM free in the first place. So they got double retail from me.
I wanted Witcher 2 in the box with all the disks, but I chose to buy it through GOG since that was the only place to buy it DRM free. Some time later, I think it was the first patch, they removed DRM from the box version also. Since the box versions of the Witcher games are so well done, they got a second purchase from me also.
Trine 2 still has DRM on the Windows version (Steam), but the OSX and Linux versions are DRM free. DRM free Windows will be added later this year. They did it with Trine, so you can bet they will do what they stated with Trine 2. They provide all OS versions, DRM free, Steam key and Desura key. That is what I call a value.
I just remembered something else. Neverwinter Nights had some premium modules you could buy online. I never bought the last three modules because they all required online connections to run. To this day they still connect online to run, and the modules are no longer being sold due to some license problems between Bioware and Atari or WotC. It looks like I will never play them now, but that's ok.
It's my dollar, I work hard for it, and I have a limited supply of it. I need to start saving it for CD Projekt Red's next game Cyberpunk, Humble Bundles, etc.
It's my time, I can't get more of it. I can't waste it dealing with DRM, and I won't waste it playing pirated games. I have too many games that I have paid for that I need to play. Maybe it will be Chronicles of Riddick Dark Athena GOG release tonight. I've wanted that since it was first released.
I don't have time to address everything in your post right now, @Jalister, but I'll try to get to it tomorrow. You've made some good points, and they deserve a considerate response.
Having read through most of the discussion and seen legitimate points from both sides, I just wanted to chime in.
This really has nothing to do with subjective morality and everything to do with economic realities. Right now, Beamdog has a fair number of vocal fans on the fence about buying the game because of DRM (and judging by how many have viewed this thread, probably many more lurkers who feel the same way). It is pure speculation to say these reluctant customers will instead go and grab an unauthorized copy of the game. Many will simply decide it's not a wise expense, walk away from the purchase, and continue playing the original Bioware releases. Remember, we're talking about a target audience in their late 20s and early 30s -- original Baldur's Gate fans who are surely more mature and financially independent now than they were in 1998. No doubt many have families and are more discriminating about what they buy, especially in today's economy. And please don't assume that if they don't buy the game, they'll resort to downloading it via other means for free. "Guilty until proven innocent" is a downright wrong attitude to take toward loyal but indecisive fans.
DRM ruins consumer confidence, which affects a company's bottom line. It may not have been Beamdog's choice to include DRM, but it will absolutely dent their sales (to what degree, we can only speculate). Of course they'll lose the nonpayers (they would have anyway). But they also lose the devoted fans whose better judgment tells them DRM-protected software is generally not a good investment due to its well-established history of problems.
Whoever made the BG:EE DRM decision made a business mistake. If that mistake could be corrected, Beamdog could realize more sales even at this moment.
If you don't want to buy a game because it has (a very mild form of) DRM, that's your choice.
But don't try to use the existence of DRM to enoble your piracy.
Late to the discussion. Who said anything about piracy? For example, I have paid for BG, TOSC, SOA, TOB and the 4-1 in my time. I can easily play this game anytime I want, if I could get it to install. I have the turtle shell cases, printed CD's and original manuals to prove it.
On a similar note, it's really not worth arguing with the people who will never accept any DRM under any conditions. In their mind, there is never any justification for it and it is mere robbery. I find the anti-DRM argument a little silly, even if there have been problems with it in the past. It's far better than buying a game and entering a 20-digit code from the back of the manual and, if there is an error, you get to totally re-do it (in my opinion, of course).
I pre-ordered and will be killing rats in a basement on 18 September!
I usually bypass the CD check by ISO-ing the disk and then emulating, to save the physical disk. I also store all the updates on my hard drive.
I also have rare moments when I would wake up in the middle of the night and decide I want to install and play something RIGHT NOW. Not literally "in the middle of the night", but I'm sure you understand the situation, i.e. me sitting in front of my PC with no connection to the rest of universe. And I want a guarantee this process with a heavy odour of nostalgia can't possibly be ruined by online authentication, simple as it may be. I want to own what I have paid for, not to loan it for indefinite time.
The worst part is that I have little choice whether to buy or not, because I need to have access to BGEE data to maintain compatibility with mods.
Comments
I hope Beamdog is keeping a close watch on this thread, if only to use some of these ideas in their future titles.
I have BG,BG2,IWD,IWD2,PT,NWN on CD releases and from GOG. I have my CDs, installation keys, and GOG downloads, none of which require connection to a third party to install. Witcher 2 released on GOG DRM free and had very good selling numbers, and that game cost a lot more. I own Witcher 1 and Witcher 2 on disk and through GOG, neither require activation. Legend of Grimrock also had a DRM free version on release and sold very well, which I also bought. I mention Grimrock since it's closer in price to BG:EE. I would have not bought those 3 games if they had DRM, unless it was on a ridiculous 75% off Steam sale AFTER the list price had already come down, or the retail version dropped to about 25% of the original price. Even with the summer sale at gamersgate, I won't buy anything that isn't DRM free. There are just way to many clients/accounts to have to deal with. I won't join UPlay, not even for those $1 games they had. I won't buy anything using Origin besides Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3 (I'm hooked on those series). I'm not sure what I will do about Dragon Age 3. Bioware and Blizzard are now off my most wanted list.
This is a remake of an old title selling for $20. I've walked away from games with DRM selling for $5, even $1 on UPlay. DRM does not stop pirating, even Ubisoft is still complaining about it with their draconian DRM. Atari and WotC both have DRM free versions of games on GOG, so I don't buy that it has to have DRM.
For the record, I don't consider CD checks or installation keys DRM because as long as I keep my disks and my installation keys, I will not be prevented from playing my games. Sure, as long as you are in a financial and legal position to do so, and that we are able to receive the patch during the time you are still able to provide it. I'll buy into DRM when it's proven to be effective. I'll buy this when the paying customer is trusted and the DRM is removed, or if you are ever forced to shutdown...
It's also ridiculous how much money is spent on DRM to have it broken in a day. Put that money into the game, not into something that doesn't work.
It's also entirely possible that Beamdog will release their no-DRM patch in a year or two, once the game has had sufficient commercial success that they can afford to do away with it. But I really don't see how authenticating a purchase is a bad thing.
And the possibility that Beamdog will release a patch is just that, a possibility. If Trent is so sure that it will be released, let's see that spelled out in the EULA. But I really doubt the company will be willing to make that level of commitment. It's much easier to renege on a post in a message board than that contract. I doubt they will renege. But as it stands, we as consumers will have no recourse whatsoever if they do change their minds.
And this DRM won't be "broken" in the sense that BD will add patches and release. Pirates will crack once, twice, maybe five times but won't bother any further. True fans will play the game again and again and won't mind paying and the authentification. I don't think BD will release a no-autentification patch anytime soon
Actually, lets stop calling that DRM. It's just an internet dependant installation. IDI. That's cooler for a name, isn't it ?
Seriously, the question isn't facetious. How have I penalized this company? You may be confusing me with the crowd over in the Steam thread that says release it their way or else. I have never said that. I'm just encouraging a company that I want to succeed to do the things that I think will better their chances of success.
Given the potential for the truly intrusive level of DRM that could have been implemented, and also considering the popularity of the title, I think an opportunity may have emerged for compromise between the pirate and the DRM-happy developer. Even if the presence of DRM isn't ideal, this level of it on such a popular and beloved title is absolutely a major step in the right direction.
Show some solidarity: don't pirate it. Just buy it. Deal with the one time activation and make your voice heard elsewhere. Let the DRM industry know that if they keep their mitts off our stuff, we'll be more amenable to buying it. Beamdog understands this, and I think had they the ability, there would be zero DRM in place.
From Trent's Twitter:
I agree 100% that DRM is never a solution. DRM is a part of the games industry and most business deals have some mention of it in the terms
Personally, I think DRM doesn't work. Either you spend forever developing an ironclad, bad-user experience DRM or you go halfway.
We're still sorting through DRM options, but we're trying for a lightweight system which meets the requirement and doesn't hassle the user.
I also get concerned when people start talking about only buying the product after the company has failed and been forced to release the no-DRM patch prior to shutting down their servers. This kind of logic doesn't help the developers, and it doesn't change their minds either. It assumes that the developers are lying, and it also "hopes" for the developers to fail. Both cases rub me the wrong way, and I think you can understand why.
I'm all for intelligent discourse on the subject; I think this topic, although it has gone around in circles a dozen times ("DRM is bad!" "You could hardly call this DRM!" "It still obstructs the rights of the consumer!" "Developers have rights too!" "DRM is bad!" and so on), has raised some very good points and, in small ways, changed people's minds on the subject (and I suspect the developers have been listening intently as well). What I'm opposed to is people declaring that they will never buy the game because of a one-time ping to the servers.
@Rythgar I for one do acknowledge the step in the right direction and want to encourage more. Believe me, I know who the DRM proponents are in this equation and I despise them. If I thought Beamdog was part of the problem I would not support them in any way. But I do want to loudly encourage Beamdog to continue to advocate for the consumer. If I could be in those meetings to speak for myself I would! But I'm hoping Trent and his compatriots will continue to serve in our stead and advance the agenda. This was a small victory. But if progress toward our side ends here it will be lost very quickly to the opposing ideology.
If we demonstrate that piracy is unacceptable among our own, then perhaps those who use DRM will finally stop feeling threatened. Probably a pipe dream, as corporations tend to be paranoid, but at least give the game maker a reason to trust us. Too often these same forums give birth to comments like "DRM? F*** that! I'm pirating!" rather than "DRM? Too bad, I won't be buying it." The former comment encourages DRM, the latter scares them silly.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/08/22/ubisoft-ceo-yves-guillemot-pc-gaming-piracy-levels-up-at-95/
Ubisoft has some of the most invasive and atrocious DRM solutions to date (I don't buy their products because of their DRM). So essentially the CEO is admitting that their DRM has a 5-7% success rate. *two thumbs up*
I realize that not every developer is on my side and that not every publisher is against me. But those are typically the battle lines. I would love to see Beamdog eventually elevate themselves to the level of a CD Projekt RED where they can be self sufficient and call their own shots. I also realize that the contractual issues surrounding a re-release are antithetical to this goal. But if this experiment succeeds they will acquire more and more clout within the industry and I will continue to encourage them to embrace the community instead of fearing it.
This is all my opinion of course. Now, GET OFF MY LAWN!
How about MW3? Approximately 372,000 copies sold on the PC (based on old data); that means that there are 7,440,000 people playing it.
I love made up statistics.
Yeah, that sounds about right.
Prince of Persia The Sands of Time is my all time favorite reboot. It does so many things right in so many special ways that I fell head over heels for it and finished the game in two sittings. Then came the rehashes and sequels and followups to cash in, none of which could capture the magic of the first in my eyes. After the most recent game (Forgotten Sands) I swore of Ubisoft for good. I actually enjoyed the latest two quite a bit, however the final straw for me was when I was at the final boss in Forgotten Sands.
It was Friday night I was having some trouble tackling him as I was tried so I decided to table the game and finish it when I was fresh over the weekend, uPlay was down for over 48 hours that weekend and I was unable to even boot the game w/o being kicked. I ended up finishing the game on Monday after work, despite the decent gameplay, that bitter taste of "why can't I play my single player game?" stuck w/ me and I couldn't even bring myself to watch the ending cinematic. Ctrl+Alt+Delete and I never looked back...
I still haven't played Bioshock 1 & 2, Dead Space 1 & 2, Mirror's Edge, Batman Arkham Asylum/City, Assassins Creeds, and many others. Some of those games are very old, and still have online activation or worse, GFWL. I might have bought some of those at $5, but then I think, if this is only $5 why does it still need DRM.
DRM at launch is acceptable? Any idea how many games are cracked within 24 hours? How many games are cracked before release? If the early download of the BG:EE preorders is complete with the authentication servers off, this may be another prerelease crack.
I wish no ill will to Beamdog, and have wished them luck with BG:EE. Any comment about buying the game if they are ever forced to shutdown was a joke. How could I buy the game after they shutdown. The only reason I spoke up is that I do want this to succeed, and I would like to be a part of it. I want them to see my post, and if they are or planning to present a DRM free case, I would be one more vote. If it was DRM free, this would be a first day purchase. Now it will be a no sale, or sale after DRM is removed and priced down at least 30%, or maybe even with DRM in I will buy this on a 75% off sale. This has been my experience over the last several years of buying.
Let me throw a few more cents in. I bought Legend of Grimrock twice. The first was a preorder through GOG since it was going to be DRM free, and Grimrock's site was selling it through Steam. A few days later while still in preorder, they also added a DRM free version through the Humble Store along with the Steam key. I preorder a second copy direct from the developer to support their trust, and I kept my preorder with GOG to support them for getting the game DRM free in the first place. So they got double retail from me.
I wanted Witcher 2 in the box with all the disks, but I chose to buy it through GOG since that was the only place to buy it DRM free. Some time later, I think it was the first patch, they removed DRM from the box version also. Since the box versions of the Witcher games are so well done, they got a second purchase from me also.
Trine 2 still has DRM on the Windows version (Steam), but the OSX and Linux versions are DRM free. DRM free Windows will be added later this year. They did it with Trine, so you can bet they will do what they stated with Trine 2. They provide all OS versions, DRM free, Steam key and Desura key. That is what I call a value.
I just remembered something else. Neverwinter Nights had some premium modules you could buy online. I never bought the last three modules because they all required online connections to run. To this day they still connect online to run, and the modules are no longer being sold due to some license problems between Bioware and Atari or WotC. It looks like I will never play them now, but that's ok.
It's my dollar, I work hard for it, and I have a limited supply of it. I need to start saving it for CD Projekt Red's next game Cyberpunk, Humble Bundles, etc.
It's my time, I can't get more of it. I can't waste it dealing with DRM, and I won't waste it playing pirated games. I have too many games that I have paid for that I need to play. Maybe it will be Chronicles of Riddick Dark Athena GOG release tonight. I've wanted that since it was first released.
I don't have time to address everything in your post right now, @Jalister, but I'll try to get to it tomorrow. You've made some good points, and they deserve a considerate response.
This really has nothing to do with subjective morality and everything to do with economic realities. Right now, Beamdog has a fair number of vocal fans on the fence about buying the game because of DRM (and judging by how many have viewed this thread, probably many more lurkers who feel the same way). It is pure speculation to say these reluctant customers will instead go and grab an unauthorized copy of the game. Many will simply decide it's not a wise expense, walk away from the purchase, and continue playing the original Bioware releases. Remember, we're talking about a target audience in their
late 20s and early 30s -- original Baldur's Gate fans who are surely more mature and financially independent now than they were in 1998. No doubt many have families and are more discriminating about what they buy, especially in today's economy. And please don't assume that if they don't buy the game, they'll resort to downloading it via other means for free. "Guilty until proven innocent" is a downright wrong attitude to take toward loyal but indecisive fans.
DRM ruins consumer confidence, which affects a company's bottom line. It may not have been Beamdog's
choice to include DRM, but it will absolutely dent their sales (to what degree, we can only speculate). Of course they'll lose the nonpayers (they would have anyway). But they also lose the devoted fans whose better judgment tells them DRM-protected software is generally not a good investment due to its well-established history of problems.
Whoever made the BG:EE DRM decision made a business mistake. If that mistake could be corrected, Beamdog could realize more sales even at this moment.
The original Baldur's Gate had DRM too (you needed the CD to play) but people didn't have a problem in buying the game then.
Now a one-time online activation for each installation (which is arguably a more soft version of DRM) is suddenly a motive to not buy the game.
On a similar note, it's really not worth arguing with the people who will never accept any DRM under any conditions. In their mind, there is never any justification for it and it is mere robbery. I find the anti-DRM argument a little silly, even if there have been problems with it in the past. It's far better than buying a game and entering a 20-digit code from the back of the manual and, if there is an error, you get to totally re-do it (in my opinion, of course).
I pre-ordered and will be killing rats in a basement on 18 September!
I also store all the updates on my hard drive.
I also have rare moments when I would wake up in the middle of the night and decide I want to install and play something RIGHT NOW. Not literally "in the middle of the night", but I'm sure you understand the situation, i.e. me sitting in front of my PC with no connection to the rest of universe. And I want a guarantee this process with a heavy odour of nostalgia can't possibly be ruined by online authentication, simple as it may be. I want to own what I have paid for, not to loan it for indefinite time.
The worst part is that I have little choice whether to buy or not, because I need to have access to BGEE data to maintain compatibility with mods.