I would worry about this specifically for the reasons you stated; it's really easy for the user to alter the host file to trick it into thinking you're online but not connecting to the server.
It's also easy for software to read the file and find the domain name mapped to localhost or some bogus IP, in which case the installer would not continue.
Unless I'm missing something, a user would have to basically set up a custom DNS proxy which rewrites all requests from activation.beamdog.com to somebogusdomain.com. I don't see this happening with most users.
Okay, then let's try something different: A Mutual License Agreement (MLA). Don't forget to cite your sources!
What we're doing here, @Jalister, is trying to come up with a solution that will be amenable to both players and developers alike. If the developer agrees to the Mutual License Agreement, then they'll be bound to follow its precepts. It's those precepts that we're attempting to outline here.
At the moment, there are two "acceptable" solutions (and they mix and mingle, especially in point 3, so that's important):
1) Digital media with one-time authentication at the moment of installation. The developer agrees that in the event that the authentication servers are ever permanently shut down, or at any time before this if the developer so chooses, a patch will be released by the developer (or by a third party if the developer no longer exists in its current form) that will eliminate the requirement for authentication.
2) Physical media with one-time authentication at the moment of installation, where the authentication is handled by a physical device, such as a USB stick. The physical media contains all of the installation files required to install the game, which can then be backed up or copied at the user's discretion. Once copied, the installation must still be authenticated with the physical media.
2a) At any time, the user may register the physical media with the developer's authentication servers. Thereafter, the user may download the product's installation files directly from the developer's distributor, and may also authenticate any and all installations through the developer's authentication servers in the absence of the physical media.
3) If a user has purchased the digital media, the developer may offer to sell the physical media at a discounted price, allowing the user to authenticate future installations without requiring a connection to the developer's authentication servers.
The "escrow" idea has a lot of merit but the argument by those who oppose any type of DRM has been that if their internet is down at the time they wish to install the game, they would not be able to do so. I don't see a lot of compromise on that issue here.
The USB authentication is basically a dongle, which were used back in the day with certain high-priced and sensitive software that required a lot of security because they accessed private data. I don't see that model working because if you have many developers using it, are you going to want to have 10 USB sticks to keep track of and plug in whenever you install your game?
Windows product activation schemas have the capability to identify a specific computer and tie software to it. I'm sure it would be possible to develop an installer which can disable itself automatically after installing and re-enable itself after uninstalling, which would prevent it from being installed in more than one place. This would likely be much more difficult to crack than a product key and it would not require an internet connection. Even if the installer is copied to another computer and tries to run, it would know that it's already been installed and refuse to do so. Then all the developer has to do is restrict a second download unless it can be verified that the first installation has been removed. That does require an internet connection (in cases where the computer crashed or something) Granted this does not work for physical copies but there might be ways around that as well.
I view the USB authentication more as a form of CD check. I just like USB sticks better.
A USB medium allows faster file transfer, which means installation completes more efficiently. This, and having ten USB sticks is still a more compact solution than having ten DVDs (or, worse, ten games with five CDs each!).
I don't like the idea of product activation being tied to specific computers, because I prefer the idea that a user can install a game on multiple computers if he owns multiple computers. Again, the goal is to protect the developer, not to limit the user.
I think we're arguing over the details at this point. I know that the devil resides in there, but if the general idea for an escrow account patch is acceptable I'm sure the details can be worked out. IANAL but I think Aosaw hit the nail on the head. If you enter into a contract with a bank it doesn't matter if you change ownership, the contract is still in place. That's why I like the bank idea. The language could be easily written to protect all parties if the basic idea gains acceptance.
Okay, then let's try something different: A Mutual License Agreement (MLA). Don't forget to cite your sources!
What we're doing here, @Jalister, is trying to come up with a solution that will be amenable to both players and developers alike. If the developer agrees to the Mutual License Agreement, then they'll be bound to follow its precepts. It's those precepts that we're attempting to outline here.
At the moment, there are two "acceptable" solutions (and they mix and mingle, especially in point 3, so that's important):
1) Digital media with one-time authentication at the moment of installation. The developer agrees that in the event that the authentication servers are ever permanently shut down, or at any time before this if the developer so chooses, a patch will be released by the developer (or by a third party if the developer no longer exists in its current form) that will eliminate the requirement for authentication.
2) Physical media with one-time authentication at the moment of installation, where the authentication is handled by a physical device, such as a USB stick. The physical media contains all of the installation files required to install the game, which can then be backed up or copied at the user's discretion. Once copied, the installation must still be authenticated with the physical media.
2a) At any time, the user may register the physical media with the developer's authentication servers. Thereafter, the user may download the product's installation files directly from the developer's distributor, and may also authenticate any and all installations through the developer's authentication servers in the absence of the physical media.
3) If a user has purchased the digital media, the developer may offer to sell the physical media at a discounted price, allowing the user to authenticate future installations without requiring a connection to the developer's authentication servers.
As a customer, if a developer/publisher can put together an agreement like that, I'd actually feel a lot better towards my purchase. I know Trent has mentioned on this thread about patching the DRM should Beamdog ever cease to operate, but it's all talk without a little something more concrete.
Oh, and I am an anti-DRM guy who doesn't care too much about temporary outages. That is part of the compromise I am willing to make. Online authentication only bothers me in as far as I know the servers will come down at some point permanently. Give me a solution to that problem, not promises, and I will be a happy customer.
@Aosaw - Nothing there can guarantee you will be able to use your game if the company is bought out willingly or due to liquidation. The MLA does not have to be honored by the new company, and they can actually decide to tighten restrictions.
I like it, and I have purchased all of the games they offer. Long story short, if their servers ever go down, their games auto-activate. Read the post, and you can see that it can even be tested now.
My favorite part - "But we know you won’t do that, because we trust you. We depend on you. So go out there and spread the Werd. Puppygames DRM is about your rights as much as ours."
I like it, and I have purchased all of the games they offer. Long story short, if their servers ever go down, their games auto-activate. Read the post, and you can see that it can even be tested now.
If their servers ever go down, their games auto-activate
This is what I've been trying to say.
If the installer doesn't get an activation server response after some handsome timeout (say 5 minutes), or it gets a service unavailable response, let 'em install. That also reassures the crowd who is worried about temporary outages.
If you enter into a contract with a bank it doesn't matter if you change ownership, the contract is still in place.
I've seen a bank sell my contract, effectively changing it. While contracts are more ironclad that EULA, they are still more likely to protect the company than the consumer. Not to mention they can just use their pool of lawyers to bankrupt you in court.
Besides all of this is overkill. It's a $20 game. How much time/money needs to be spent/wasted on attempting to lock it down.
Bioshock at $5 and it still uses DRM. Really? Like it hasn't been out for years and copied millions of times when it was still $50. $5 and I still won't touch it.
If the installer doesn't get an activation server response after some handsome timeout (say 5 minutes), or it gets a service unavailable response, let 'em install. That also reassures the crowd who is worried about temporary outages.
It does go one step further to help protect the developer. It checks in whenever you run it, so if you do trick the install to activate, when it finally checks in it will go back to demo mode if you didn't buy it. I don't mind the phoning in part of it. What do I care if Puppy Games know that I played the game at 4 in the morning. As long as the only information it sends is my email address, which they already have, I'm good with it.
It does go one step further to help protect the developer. It checks in whenever you run it, so if you do trick the install to activate, when it finally checks in it will go back to demo mode if you didn't buy it. I don't mind the phoning in part of it. What do I care if Puppy Games know that I played the game at 4 in the morning. As long as the only information it sends is my email address, which they already have, I'm good with it.
As long as the check-ins follow the same rule as the installations: no check-in server, no stopping the user from accessing their content. And no data mining. That might a solution some people can live with.
That is a great system. What makes it work, though, is the "Demo/Full Version" bit (which is hard for a game that doesn't have a demo yet). But we can probably borrow that "servers down? install anyway" part.
As long as the check-ins follow the same rule as the installations: no check-in server, no stopping the user from accessing their content. And no data mining. That might a solution some people can live with.
I like it as it's described. Also, once I download it, I won't be denied playing regardless of my internet, their servers, or Anonymous taking down GoDaddy. (for the record I'm not saying I 100% believe Anonymous did that, they are just claiming they did)
If BGEE adopted this level of control, I would pre-order now, since I would have no worries about the future of my purchase.
That is a great system. What makes it work, though, is the "Demo/Full Version" bit (which is hard for a game that doesn't have a demo yet). But we can probably borrow that "servers down? install anyway" part.
I don't think the demo part makes it work, I think it's a nice bonus feature. Without the demo part, either the game finds the server with a legit account and runs, doesn't find a server and runs, or finds a server without an account and doesn't run. If it finds the server without an account, it could even direct you to a purchase page.
Alright, I drafted a letter to Cam summarizing a lot of what we've said here. I wouldn't expect anything to come of it, at least not for a while--he's pretty solidly buried in code at the moment--but we can all rest assured that the issue has at least been brought to their attention, even if they haven't been following along for the entire twenty-two pages of this thread's history.
That is a very nice DRM compromise. There are many ways to skin this cat that don't affect us negatively. It's awesome to see some people constructively put forward ideas instead of just dismissing all of our concerns without thought. I like my escrow idea, but this one looks even better! Hopefully we're not done yet with the great ideas.
Another system I like is Slysoft's. When you make a purchase, it creates a license file with your name and key in it. You can buy a license that expires, or pay more for a lifetime license. The license will work for any release of that program, until the expiration date. I waited for an excellent sale and purchased a lifetime license. Now I never have to worry about being able to use my software. If the company vanishes, I know I will still be able to use what I paid good money for, though the program may slowly get out of date. Of course I need to protect my installer and license, but I do that now already.
For those that decide to look into Slysoft, I use the program to better my viewing experience of my purchased DVDs and Blu Rays, not for copying. One of my favorite features is that it unlocks the sections of the disk that you normally can't skip. In some cases it also skips that FBI warning that I have now seen hundreds of times since VHS was invented. That goes back to the link I sent about watching Matrix on DVD some posts ago.
It's not exactly on topic, but the video warnings on movies that I purchase are about to get worse. It really doesn't make any sense. People that buy know this, and the people that pirate will never see this message. So once again the paying customer is inconvenienced while the pirate gets a better experience.
See, I knew some smart people somewhere would come up with a DRM that works well enough to satisfy the vast majority of people. Good on you chaps, PuppyGames.
I think that any time you're dealing with digital media, it's hard to discuss "used" products, because the primary distinction is that when a consumer buys a used product they're buying a product that is damaged in some way. Not always in an overt sense of the word, but it's clearly not pristine.
With digital media, the product is always clean. Even if you show a water-mark like an email address, the product is in exactly the same condition it was in when the original consumer purchased it.
The best solution for digital media is allowing refunds, which is something that PuppyGames does rather nicely. If you decide you don't want the game anymore, you can return it and get your money back. That's a better return that you'd get on a used game, and it also keeps most of the sale's profits in the hands of the developer, which is a good thing.
When it comes to physical media used games, I personally don't like it. At the same time I don't think that option should be taken away from the consumer either. My reason for not liking used media are that I just don't like buying used media, buying used gives all the profit to the store and not the developer, and I believe it encourages stores to not carry so many new copies so they can push used copies. I can't blame publishers for wanting to stifle used sales, I'm not just sure they have the right to do so.
So many times I have had to resort to mail order because the local Gamestops are somehow sold out of a popular title they know sells well.
As for digital media, that is a trickier subject. It would be a lot harder to track who owns the current license. Also, in theory being digital should mean that used software is clean, but that is not always the case. I have had executable files go corrupt, and they can get viruses imbedded into the files.
There is one digital game distributor that either has, will have, or wants (can't remember which), an option to sell your games back to the publisher at a reduced cost. The system does need DRM similar to Steam to work.
The entire D&D collection at GOG is up to 65% off right now. If there is room in the budget after picking up BGEE, you may want to take a look over there. I figured I would spread the word since I already own them all.
The entire D&D collection at GOG is up to 65% off right now. If there is room in the budget after picking up BGEE, you may want to take a look over there. I figured I would spread the word since I already own them all.
Thanks for the info. Oh my God, there's so much to spend, so few cash. I wonder if they're being deliberate, putting all these games on sale when they know BG:EE is coming in few days.
Piracy It has been over a year since we even thought about piracy. With sales as good as above we cannot really see this as an issue worth more than two lines in this post, so screw it.
Comments
Unless I'm missing something, a user would have to basically set up a custom DNS proxy which rewrites all requests from activation.beamdog.com to somebogusdomain.com. I don't see this happening with most users.
What we're doing here, @Jalister, is trying to come up with a solution that will be amenable to both players and developers alike. If the developer agrees to the Mutual License Agreement, then they'll be bound to follow its precepts. It's those precepts that we're attempting to outline here.
At the moment, there are two "acceptable" solutions (and they mix and mingle, especially in point 3, so that's important):
1) Digital media with one-time authentication at the moment of installation. The developer agrees that in the event that the authentication servers are ever permanently shut down, or at any time before this if the developer so chooses, a patch will be released by the developer (or by a third party if the developer no longer exists in its current form) that will eliminate the requirement for authentication.
2) Physical media with one-time authentication at the moment of installation, where the authentication is handled by a physical device, such as a USB stick. The physical media contains all of the installation files required to install the game, which can then be backed up or copied at the user's discretion. Once copied, the installation must still be authenticated with the physical media.
2a) At any time, the user may register the physical media with the developer's authentication servers. Thereafter, the user may download the product's installation files directly from the developer's distributor, and may also authenticate any and all installations through the developer's authentication servers in the absence of the physical media.
3) If a user has purchased the digital media, the developer may offer to sell the physical media at a discounted price, allowing the user to authenticate future installations without requiring a connection to the developer's authentication servers.
A USB medium allows faster file transfer, which means installation completes more efficiently. This, and having ten USB sticks is still a more compact solution than having ten DVDs (or, worse, ten games with five CDs each!).
I don't like the idea of product activation being tied to specific computers, because I prefer the idea that a user can install a game on multiple computers if he owns multiple computers. Again, the goal is to protect the developer, not to limit the user.
I did just think of a DRM scheme I don't have a problem with. Scroll down to "What’s all this about DRM?"
http://www.puppygames.net/blog/?p=574
I like it, and I have purchased all of the games they offer. Long story short, if their servers ever go down, their games auto-activate. Read the post, and you can see that it can even be tested now.
My favorite part - "But we know you won’t do that, because we trust you. We depend on you. So go out there and spread the Werd. Puppygames DRM is about your rights as much as ours."
If the installer doesn't get an activation server response after some handsome timeout (say 5 minutes), or it gets a service unavailable response, let 'em install. That also reassures the crowd who is worried about temporary outages.
Besides all of this is overkill. It's a $20 game. How much time/money needs to be spent/wasted on attempting to lock it down.
Bioshock at $5 and it still uses DRM. Really? Like it hasn't been out for years and copied millions of times when it was still $50. $5 and I still won't touch it.
If BGEE adopted this level of control, I would pre-order now, since I would have no worries about the future of my purchase.
For those that decide to look into Slysoft, I use the program to better my viewing experience of my purchased DVDs and Blu Rays, not for copying. One of my favorite features is that it unlocks the sections of the disk that you normally can't skip. In some cases it also skips that FBI warning that I have now seen hundreds of times since VHS was invented. That goes back to the link I sent about watching Matrix on DVD some posts ago.
It's not exactly on topic, but the video warnings on movies that I purchase are about to get worse. It really doesn't make any sense. People that buy know this, and the people that pirate will never see this message. So once again the paying customer is inconvenienced while the pirate gets a better experience.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/05/dvds-and-blu-rays-will-now-carry-two-unskippable-government-warnings/
The Puppy Games method ties your license to your email address. I'm not sure if that can be changed, but I'm planning to check on that.
The Slysoft method keeps your name in the license file.
With digital media, the product is always clean. Even if you show a water-mark like an email address, the product is in exactly the same condition it was in when the original consumer purchased it.
The best solution for digital media is allowing refunds, which is something that PuppyGames does rather nicely. If you decide you don't want the game anymore, you can return it and get your money back. That's a better return that you'd get on a used game, and it also keeps most of the sale's profits in the hands of the developer, which is a good thing.
So many times I have had to resort to mail order because the local Gamestops are somehow sold out of a popular title they know sells well.
As for digital media, that is a trickier subject. It would be a lot harder to track who owns the current license. Also, in theory being digital should mean that used software is clean, but that is not always the case. I have had executable files go corrupt, and they can get viruses imbedded into the files.
There is one digital game distributor that either has, will have, or wants (can't remember which), an option to sell your games back to the publisher at a reduced cost. The system does need DRM similar to Steam to work.
Piracy
It has been over a year since we even thought about piracy. With sales as good as above we cannot really see this as an issue worth more than two lines in this post, so screw it.