Honestly what could be done is make the ending of ToB a side quest or maybe modify it to be a dream sequence, this would make it so the original game was unchanged, but would leave it open to be better via more areas to explore/regions/quests, and maybe even go back to the Amnian regions, baldur's gate, and would give them license to create a 2nd rendition of the zones, but make them their own without even touching the original characters/story.
This is a very intresting idea as the ending of ToB is a dead end. If there ever will be a BG3, this might be a solution to continue the saga.
Oh for God's sake, do we have to have this debate in every damn thread? Someone just has to mention how much they hate gay romances (though this is the first where someone has just out and out said they think gays are sick so at least you're honest I guess). Do you really think about it that much that you have to bring it up in a completely unrelated thread? Do nightmarish visions of a fictional character hitting on you in a video game plague your dreams?
@Communard Yeah I know how you feel, there is only so many times you can see this argument come up before it all starts to look the same. I actually think across Dragon Age, Mass Effect and The Old Republic forums I've seen absolutely every permutation possible of this argument. Every idiotic assumption voiced (from either side), every articulate, well reasoned reply soundly ignored.
These games are RPGs which means they are about choice, if you don't want to experience something, don't choose it. Simple as that. What worries me is narry an eyelid is batted about "evil" choices in games, but pick a love interest of the same gender and suddenly people are up in arms.
What worries me is narry an eyelid is batted about "evil" choices in games, but pick a love interest of the same gender and suddenly people are up in arms.
I like this point I'd like to think that the gay romances in dragon age 2 drew so much ire, not because they were gay, but because the characters read like they were written by a 15 year old yaoi fangirl.
Anyway, this is getting a bit off topic now, people are supposed to be talking about how much they disagree with me
These games are RPGs which means they are about choice, if you don't want to experience something, don't choose it. Simple as that. What worries me is narry an eyelid is batted about "evil" choices in games, but pick a love interest of the same gender and suddenly people are up in arms.
Exactly! Even if you think it's immoral (not an argument for the Baldur's Gate forums), this is a game where you can literally murder children. Morality doesn't enter into it. RPGs should be as free and open as possible.
Hey ppl, lets avoid another gay romance factions, it didn't work well on the last try, a lot of flames, no matter what ppl say it's a sensible point. After all it's off topic here.
Dude you're wrong, but not by choice, maybe it's a cultural issue where you grow up.
To be gay is not an illness, that's stupid, forgive me if this is what the reverend on your church says, but he's just ignorant. Science is here to proof otherwise.
My position is that being gay is common, not natural. Why that? Cos it didn't serve nature or evolution in any way. however sex for pleasure don't direct serve nature in anyway too, so in my way of think, chose to be gay is a discretionary chose that an evolved society is capable of do.
We're not slaves of our instinct, we evolved to a point were we're able to chose what is beautiful and what is not for us.
you have the right of not support a homosexual romance, just like i do, but to call it illness, it's the limit of ignorance dude, don't get upset i'm not here to offend you, serious, but this way of think is a braiwash that some religions do to their faithfuls. You don't need to be dumb to have faith.
I'm straight and after all, in my point of view, for each male gay that i know is 1 less competitor that eventually gonna take another guy from the race, making 2 less competitors at the end.
@ajwz was there anything about ToB that you liked? I remember it fondly but have probably only played it once.
A few things I guess. Watchers keep I thought was "ok". I remember enjoying it on my first playthrough, but it's not exactly the best dungeon in the world, plus it completely unbalances the equipment power levels of SoA.
The wild mage kit was good, but one character kit does not an expansion make.
Tab highlight functionality.
That's about it though. I honestly don't like the gameplay of high level fights and mechanics, but I can do see the point of the people saying that the mechanics are fixable and if they are then we should keep ToB, and as I say in my opening post, I realise the "if you don't like it, don't play it" argument is fine if this was the only problem. However, why I don't want them to do this is the story and the writing. Perhaps I should have put more emphasis into this point. It's really the same argument people (including myself) have with 4th ed. It's ok to write a bad set of rules, I just won't play 4th edition d&d. But you've also permanently screwed up the setting for people, and forced bad or unpopular changes on everyone else for all iterations in the future
@ajwz I really want to play ToB now to remind myself of what it's like! unfortunately it is beyond my grasp.
I should shut myself up until I've replayed. About the tab highlighting I'm of two minds however, doing a mouse-over of a whole room is a chore, granted. But I liked that it was possible to miss stuff, or find things through clues (like in that painting in BG?) I suppose I could just not press tab, but the flesh is weak
@Space_hamster I'm assuming that's directed at me. I don't want to pick the 2 xpacks apart piece by piece, but overall I do feel TotSC was the weaker of the 2. It added absolutely nothing to the story, it simply provided several entertaining diversions, such as DT, and a little lore. As a result, I think ToB surpasses TotSC b/c it extends the main story arc of the game, provides closure to the narrative, and provides entertaining diversions similar to those found in TotSC, i.e. Watcher's Keep. True, ToB had its issues, I am not a fan of the high-level mechanics or linear gameplay, but I don't think it should be altered as the OP suggested.
Well considering that TOB was the end of the saga, I don't think it really ruins the story for what is to come later, do you? Besides, in the end it was ultimately, become a god or don't, right? What's the big deal of effecting the giant story line here? Also I've come to realize that most people probably did import their characters from SOA on their first play through of TOB, which I didn't do. I was having some sort of game crashing issues in SOA so I skipped it for TOB. It's a LOT more rewarding of a game if you try to play it without the overpowered SOA equipment. I like to power-game a lot, so I don't mind importing my stuff from SOA, and some of that stuff is pretty irreplaceable to me. (Like Ring of Gaxx and Bladesinger armor)
Things like the ring of anti-venom you find off that lich in amkatheran become a lot more useful without that anti-poison necklace, or the ring of gaxx. I don't know, I mean a lot of people say they don't like the linear factor of TOB, and a lot of people had issues with the story line, but I think those aren't enough to scrap the project entirely. The gameplay could be a lot of fun, and it's still the part of the game I look forward to most when I play the BG saga. For those of you who haven't tried TOB stand alone, you should give it a shot. You may find that starting at the lower...ish level, without the super godly equipment to be a fun way to play TOB.
These games are RPGs which means they are about choice, if you don't want to experience something, don't choose it. Simple as that. What worries me is narry an eyelid is batted about "evil" choices in games, but pick a love interest of the same gender and suddenly people are up in arms.
Exactly! Even if you think it's immoral (not an argument for the Baldur's Gate forums), this is a game where you can literally murder children. Morality doesn't enter into it. RPGs should be as free and open as possible.
As someone who does personally think it's immoral, I completely agree with you. It's an RPG, they're supposed to be open and free as you said. How many innocent people have I killed in BG? A lot. Have I killed innocent people in real life? Lol, no. How many gay romances have I had in BG? None, but that's only because I download very few mods so I have had no chance to anyway. How many gay romances have I had in real life? Lol none. Chrimeny, it's a game peoplez!
i just don't understand how completely ignorable option can ruin the whole game for you? and by ignorable i mean choosing "dude, go away" or "i'm not interested" options when/if it pops up.
but i guess the whole cults of murderers, thieves, liars and psychopaths, rapist bhaal, genocide, eye gouging and slaughter are just splendid compared to homosexuality? yes, because sex and love between men is the real threat to our well being (lesbians excluded, they are just hot, right?).
OT- in my own sick opinion, tob should not be removed but expanded upon, adding more choices and paths to explore, making it more developed and satisfying experience. perhaps even rethink some of the plot points. hm, now what does that remind me of... -.-
Aaaaaaaanyway, if I am allowed to go back on topic, since it is an interesting one:
There are things I liked and things I really disliked with ToB. Overall, I am happy that it exists, since almost any end to a saga is better than no end at all. That said, it could certainly use some revamping.
-ToB is pretty much a hack n slash game. It is kind of hard to avoid that, since there are only two ways to make the game difficult for a high level character - either you face one opponent who is really strong, or you face a lot of weaker ones. There is at least something from both in ToB, where some fights are really interesting and challenging. This could use some improvement, but is not terrible as is.
-That which on the other hand is terrible is the role playing part of the game. This is unfortunate, since the basic idea is pretty good: an alliance of the stronger Bhaal spawns trying to kill of everyone else, while creating chaos and mayhem to go along with the prophecy. There are even some bits of it I really like, like the character's own journey inwards, and Balthazar with the plan to kill everyone and then commit suicide (or so he says...). Most of the Bhaal Spawn characters, except for Melissan, are at least interesting. But the way the adventure is done is just pretty horrible, compared to the rest of the games. The basic problem is, as I see it, Melissan. It is just a bad idea to have her act as your ally and then double crossing you, with no way of avoiding anything of what happens. I really felt cheated when playing the game because of that (that is,not cheated by Melissan, but by the writer of the story). I mean, my level fifty-eleven wizard can literally stop the time and imprison foes in other dimensions, but he has to do what this person he just met says? My 20 wisdom 20 level cleric can't tell someone is lying? Really? It is just such an anti-climax...Anything that could be done to change ToB to both fit multiple character types and make the game more interesting for the role player would be much appreciated.
@Tie_Fighter, let's not forget all the hints the game give to us that Melissan is lying or manipulating us, the Gromir speech before we battle for example, Balthazar also make some comments against her when we frist meet him. But the fact we know she's a liar doesn't mean we can avoid her manipulation, so i give points to ToB for that.
IMO, it being transparently obvious that Mellissan is going to betray you and not having the option to even confront her about it is a big negative about ToB.
Yeah, it is pretty obvious, which the writer clearly allowed it to be, which could have been fine if there were some gameplay to it. But there just isn't, it's a straight line from finish to end. That is actually mostly true for the other games as well, but there they often, but not always, solve it cleverly with small choices that the player perceive as big ones. Usually the same thing will happen anyway, but you will feel like it made all the difference in the world. One small example is "Koveras ring" in BG1. It has basicly no effect on the game at all if you take it from Sarevok or not, but when playing an insightful character I can choose to not be fooled, which makes a lot of difference to me. I´ll be framed by Sarevok anyway, which is fine. To add insult to injury here, like I said above, you are in ToB a very high level character, who should be pretty powerful by any standards. It makes even less sense for many of those characters to be so easily fooled by Melissan.
So to sum up my two long posts, this is what I have to say about ToB: They had some good ideas on how to en the saga, but for some reason (likely time and money) they ended up mostly not adding interesting role playing decisions to the game. The question is what could be doen to improve the game, and I believe it wouldn't actually require that much work. But some changes would have to be made.
As I see it, when writing ToB the writer made it way too easy for himself/herself in using Melissan as the only motivator and way to push things forward, when there are so many interesting and exciting things going on! There is an alliance between five powerful Bhaal Spawns, but they don't trust each other for obvious reasons and plot against each other. The player could be thrown into this whole political mess, and have to make a bunch of cunning choices to survive and come out on top. Or he/she could just choose to confront each enemy as they pop up and bash their heads in. Some resources that could be used are:
-There could be possibilities to ally with some, or all, of the other Bhaal Spawns. This would be very logical from some of their perspectives (maybe not Yaga-shura, since he seems like more of the scull-bashing type). Take for instance the first Spawn you encounter in ToB, I forget her name. She simply attacks, and it's a very easy fight. It would be in her interest to pitch the main character against her allies. Then there is Balthazar, who is the only "good" one of the bunch, and the good character could help (I believe there is a mod that does this? Or am I mistaken?).
-An evil main character should be allowed to help Melissan, or someone else, to destroy the weaker Bhaal Spawns. It should be his/her goal anyway, right? It would almost only require a couple of lines of dialogue to complete, since the way to do this would mostly be what actually takes place in the game as it is. But instead of being fooled by Melissan, maybe she approaches the evil main character with her plans.
-I would have loved to have the end fight vary depending on how you played the political game. Maybe you have to end up fighting Balthazar, or maybe you plotted with the drow and killed Melissan, only to have to end up fighting the drow in the last battle. Who knows! Maybe there shouldn't be too many ways this could happen, but it is worth considering.
There are so many ways to make it a fun and exciting game instead of a very linear one, and I really hope the wonderful people who are working to update my favorite games of all time will take this opportunity to make something better out of the weakest part of the series!
You can't rewrite the past. Giving a alternative would be like giving 2 different ending. Deal with it because I don't think it will happen. Just wish an interesting BG3...
Tob is the black sheep of this saga in my opinion, I had truly hard time to finish it in the first run, It was too much IWD style - you finish an area, new area unlocked.
ToB certainly need a Special Care.
It wasn't well written that's for sure, It was the %^&$ it expansion IMO and I really didn't like how your NPCs epilogs were always the same. If you successfully changed someones aliment or had a Romance with them and than $%^&ed off at the end it should change. So Sarevok would have at least 2 Jaheira & Aerie would have 3 and Viconia would have 6.
Also they should of added at least 1 other God ending. If you were Chaotic Neutral/Good Bhaals essence could drive you mad and you become some crazed god of Vengeance/Chaos or something.
ToB may be not as good as the rest of the saga. Hell, it can be even considered especially bad, but still... To put it bluntly, it's the most stupid and selfish request on this forum so far.
Even more than removing Diseased Gibberlings? Sweet! :P
After reading some of these other posts, it seems like I may be a minority here, but I actually like ToB more than I like BG1.
I think the PC should have more options in certain situations and that the game should continue beyond where it left off, but I still like the basic idea of ToB.
Comments
These games are RPGs which means they are about choice, if you don't want to experience something, don't choose it. Simple as that. What worries me is narry an eyelid is batted about "evil" choices in games, but pick a love interest of the same gender and suddenly people are up in arms.
I'd like to think that the gay romances in dragon age 2 drew so much ire, not because they were gay, but because the characters read like they were written by a 15 year old yaoi fangirl.
Anyway, this is getting a bit off topic now, people are supposed to be talking about how much they disagree with me
P.S my apologies to those rationally attempting to put us back on track.
To be gay is not an illness, that's stupid, forgive me if this is what the reverend on your church says, but he's just ignorant. Science is here to proof otherwise.
My position is that being gay is common, not natural. Why that? Cos it didn't serve nature or evolution in any way. however sex for pleasure don't direct serve nature in anyway too, so in my way of think, chose to be gay is a discretionary chose that an evolved society is capable of do.
We're not slaves of our instinct, we evolved to a point were we're able to chose what is beautiful and what is not for us.
you have the right of not support a homosexual romance, just like i do, but to call it illness, it's the limit of ignorance dude, don't get upset i'm not here to offend you, serious, but this way of think is a braiwash that some religions do to their faithfuls. You don't need to be dumb to have faith.
I'm straight and after all, in my point of view, for each male gay that i know is 1 less competitor that eventually gonna take another guy from the race, making 2 less competitors at the end.
Watchers keep I thought was "ok". I remember enjoying it on my first playthrough, but it's not exactly the best dungeon in the world, plus it completely unbalances the equipment power levels of SoA.
The wild mage kit was good, but one character kit does not an expansion make.
Tab highlight functionality.
That's about it though. I honestly don't like the gameplay of high level fights and mechanics, but I can do see the point of the people saying that the mechanics are fixable and if they are then we should keep ToB, and as I say in my opening post, I realise the "if you don't like it, don't play it" argument is fine if this was the only problem.
However, why I don't want them to do this is the story and the writing. Perhaps I should have put more emphasis into this point.
It's really the same argument people (including myself) have with 4th ed. It's ok to write a bad set of rules, I just won't play 4th edition d&d. But you've also permanently screwed up the setting for people, and forced bad or unpopular changes on everyone else for all iterations in the future
I should shut myself up until I've replayed. About the tab highlighting I'm of two minds however, doing a mouse-over of a whole room is a chore, granted. But I liked that it was possible to miss stuff, or find things through clues (like in that painting in BG?) I suppose I could just not press tab, but the flesh is weak
Things like the ring of anti-venom you find off that lich in amkatheran become a lot more useful without that anti-poison necklace, or the ring of gaxx. I don't know, I mean a lot of people say they don't like the linear factor of TOB, and a lot of people had issues with the story line, but I think those aren't enough to scrap the project entirely. The gameplay could be a lot of fun, and it's still the part of the game I look forward to most when I play the BG saga. For those of you who haven't tried TOB stand alone, you should give it a shot. You may find that starting at the lower...ish level, without the super godly equipment to be a fun way to play TOB.
i just don't understand how completely ignorable option can ruin the whole game for you? and by ignorable i mean choosing "dude, go away" or "i'm not interested" options when/if it pops up.
but i guess the whole cults of murderers, thieves, liars and psychopaths, rapist bhaal, genocide, eye gouging and slaughter are just splendid compared to homosexuality? yes, because sex and love between men is the real threat to our well being (lesbians excluded, they are just hot, right?).
OT- in my own sick opinion, tob should not be removed but expanded upon, adding more choices and paths to explore, making it more developed and satisfying experience. perhaps even rethink some of the plot points. hm, now what does that remind me of... -.-
There are things I liked and things I really disliked with ToB. Overall, I am happy that it exists, since almost any end to a saga is better than no end at all. That said, it could certainly use some revamping.
-ToB is pretty much a hack n slash game. It is kind of hard to avoid that, since there are only two ways to make the game difficult for a high level character - either you face one opponent who is really strong, or you face a lot of weaker ones. There is at least something from both in ToB, where some fights are really interesting and challenging. This could use some improvement, but is not terrible as is.
-That which on the other hand is terrible is the role playing part of the game. This is unfortunate, since the basic idea is pretty good: an alliance of the stronger Bhaal spawns trying to kill of everyone else, while creating chaos and mayhem to go along with the prophecy. There are even some bits of it I really like, like the character's own journey inwards, and Balthazar with the plan to kill everyone and then commit suicide (or so he says...). Most of the Bhaal Spawn characters, except for Melissan, are at least interesting. But the way the adventure is done is just pretty horrible, compared to the rest of the games. The basic problem is, as I see it, Melissan. It is just a bad idea to have her act as your ally and then double crossing you, with no way of avoiding anything of what happens. I really felt cheated when playing the game because of that (that is,not cheated by Melissan, but by the writer of the story). I mean, my level fifty-eleven wizard can literally stop the time and imprison foes in other dimensions, but he has to do what this person he just met says? My 20 wisdom 20 level cleric can't tell someone is lying? Really? It is just such an anti-climax...Anything that could be done to change ToB to both fit multiple character types and make the game more interesting for the role player would be much appreciated.
Well, good job. Your patience certainly surpasses mine. If their voices weren't so annoying I probably would too.
So to sum up my two long posts, this is what I have to say about ToB: They had some good ideas on how to en the saga, but for some reason (likely time and money) they ended up mostly not adding interesting role playing decisions to the game. The question is what could be doen to improve the game, and I believe it wouldn't actually require that much work. But some changes would have to be made.
As I see it, when writing ToB the writer made it way too easy for himself/herself in using Melissan as the only motivator and way to push things forward, when there are so many interesting and exciting things going on! There is an alliance between five powerful Bhaal Spawns, but they don't trust each other for obvious reasons and plot against each other. The player could be thrown into this whole political mess, and have to make a bunch of cunning choices to survive and come out on top. Or he/she could just choose to confront each enemy as they pop up and bash their heads in. Some resources that could be used are:
-There could be possibilities to ally with some, or all, of the other Bhaal Spawns. This would be very logical from some of their perspectives (maybe not Yaga-shura, since he seems like more of the scull-bashing type). Take for instance the first Spawn you encounter in ToB, I forget her name. She simply attacks, and it's a very easy fight. It would be in her interest to pitch the main character against her allies. Then there is Balthazar, who is the only "good" one of the bunch, and the good character could help (I believe there is a mod that does this? Or am I mistaken?).
-An evil main character should be allowed to help Melissan, or someone else, to destroy the weaker Bhaal Spawns. It should be his/her goal anyway, right? It would almost only require a couple of lines of dialogue to complete, since the way to do this would mostly be what actually takes place in the game as it is. But instead of being fooled by Melissan, maybe she approaches the evil main character with her plans.
-I would have loved to have the end fight vary depending on how you played the political game. Maybe you have to end up fighting Balthazar, or maybe you plotted with the drow and killed Melissan, only to have to end up fighting the drow in the last battle. Who knows! Maybe there shouldn't be too many ways this could happen, but it is worth considering.
There are so many ways to make it a fun and exciting game instead of a very linear one, and I really hope the wonderful people who are working to update my favorite games of all time will take this opportunity to make something better out of the weakest part of the series!
It wasn't well written that's for sure, It was the %^&$ it expansion IMO and I really didn't like how your NPCs epilogs were always the same. If you successfully changed someones aliment or had a Romance with them and than $%^&ed off at the end it should change. So Sarevok would have at least 2 Jaheira & Aerie would have 3 and Viconia would have 6.
Also they should of added at least 1 other God ending. If you were Chaotic Neutral/Good Bhaals essence could drive you mad and you become some crazed god of Vengeance/Chaos or something.
I think the PC should have more options in certain situations and that the game should continue beyond where it left off, but I still like the basic idea of ToB.