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Remove ToB from BG2:EE



  • bigdogchrisbigdogchris Member Posts: 1,336
    edited November 2012
    I never finished ToB, I got bored with it. It was so long ago, I do remember specifically that I did not like all of the abilities and 'God like' powers. Maybe it's 2nd Edition not playing well at that level, maybe it was poorly implemented, maybe both - I don't know.

    I definitively don't want it pulled though, as you completely have the option not to play it. I'd like to give it another chance.

  • KirkorKirkor Member Posts: 700
    ToB had many plotholes, it was too linear, too short and too many battles one after another without a break to breathe. It also had very unreal feeling to it - every simple soldier had equipment, that you could only dream of in BG1. I didn't like ToB too much, but it has its own feeling - you can feel, that the final, most epic battle is about to come.
    Still, I wouldn't cut it out completely. Just tweak it, enhance it and add more sidequests and new locations to wonder around.

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,684
    @Kirkor it had to use that kind of equipments, at the end of SoA you can finish immune to normal weapons and +1 weapons, so if you put only crap in the hand of the enemies, you would end losing the little difficult that exist in ToB.

  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    I love the god powers and high level carnage. As bad as the engine may be, it surely handles it a lot better than the Aurora engine in NWN ever could, or whatever engine DDO uses.

  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    ajwz said:

    ToB was a disaster. Gameplay-wise it is so bad as to be unplayable, 2nd edition and infinity just doesn't work at this level, and HLA's just compound this - without exception they are all awful.

    Then that's the 2nd Edition's fault, not the game's. And I don't understand why you think they are awful. You are okay with Disintegrate, Finger of Death, Imprisonment, Maze, Time Stop, Shapechange, etc etc but you don't like the Whirlwind HLA for example? Those are far more DBZ in my opinion. And you don't even need to go in ToB to get them.
    ajwz said:

    Even if you don't dislike the ToB gameplay as strongly as this, I think most people will tell you ToB was by far the weakest part of the BG series.

    The weakest part? Personally, I think that TotSC was weaker. It's not even part of the main storyline. It's basically a DLC pack. Is that a bad thing? Nope. Durlag's Tower was awesome. But at least ToB concludes the story in an epic manner.
    ajwz said:

    Sarevok should never ever have happened - it was just lazy and unjustifiable, and ultimately it was an incredibly disappointing ending to and otherwise great series of games.

    Personally, I think adding Sarevok was one of the best ideas. He is my favorite villain and probably character in the BG games. Yes, even more than Irenicus. Having him in my team and being able to change his alignment was absolute awesome.
    ajwz said:

    So, what I would like to see is the complete retconning of the whole of ToB in BG2:EE and rebuilding high level gameplay and the ending to the Baldur's gate series from scratch by the new team.
    Maybe this is impossible becuase of contract limitations, but then please at lease write an "alternative" (more correct) ending after all these years.

    I think that just adding Ascension, maybe with a few changes and additions would go a LONG way. Suddenly, the battles would become much harder. Especially the one with Ilassera.
    Adding some more dialogue to explain other things would be great also.

  • reedmilfamreedmilfam Member Posts: 2,808
    I'm interested in Acenscion, except for the battles being harder. I must be the worst player to ever complete BG2, as I almost died (or did die and re-load) in just about every scene of TOB. I think my mortality rate in TOB approached Tomb of Horrors epicness.

  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    savail said:

    It's sick and any respecting itself RPG shouldn't contain it.

    ...Seriously? Killing and disintegrating children or innocents is not sick for you? That is some messed up morality right there.
    Guess what, gay people exist *gasp*. Some are born like that and others choose it, just like straight people. Do they hurt you or anyone else? No.

    Personally, I find people that consider child murder, being chunked etc an okay thing but finding nudity and gay people/romances awful, FAR sicker and ignorant. That, is messed up morality.

  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    savail said:

    I don't like games where gay romance is available... It's sick and any respecting itself RPG shouldn't contain it.

    savail said:

    alright, if they're going to continue whole sick game fashion (casual main plot, quests like in MMO, gay romance etc) then I don't really know if I want them to create Baldur's Gate 3. [...] If they're going to create it without disgracing whole saga, better they do it without all modern crap features

    You have disgraced a thread that was already disgracing to begin with. Way to go, sir.

  • DjonneDjonne Member Posts: 71
    edited November 2012
    Hmm, I didn't see this thread before creting mine, but I think it is quite related.

    To me the major concern of tob, more than being too short for the third part of a trilogy :o is that when installing tob the end of soa becomes too easy.
    I would like them to add an xp cap for the transition from soa to tob, so that Irenicus is a bit more of a challenge again. That way people who don't like tob can play the original soa like with BG2 classic.
    What do you guys think?

    Post edited by Djonne on
  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    @Djonne IIRC, in BG2 you had a 10% boost to experience gained at all times and that was removed from the engine for BG:EE. If they stick with that for BG2, it would probably help with the issue you described.

  • DjonneDjonne Member Posts: 71
    Is it 10% for everything?

  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    There is a thread in the Bug Fixes category here saying it was only for the protagonist, but I was pretty sure it was for every party member.

  • DogmatixDogmatix Member Posts: 25
    I have to say I disagree with original poster like most people on this chain. I don't see Throne of Bhaal as something which should be removed. But the whole experience could be enhanced a great deal.

    Some people like @Tie_Fighter said the main story feels pretty linear. This might be remedied like @kamuizin said, by for example making the player stronghold more integral part of the game. Also by making some additional story lines where one might make meaningful decisions could remedy the feeling of linear story (a side story in ToB for a party member etc.). Also, it would be great if there were some new ties into the story of BG1-2 plot (an easiest example would be a courier bringing news from Athkatla or Baldur's gate).

    A few people mentioned the bugs of ToB, they should be squashed of course.

    I personally thought that playing with ToB set of rules was awesome. It was really enjoyable to find loopholes in mage spells which extended the mage's power (to the extent of cheating). Maybe the ToB was easy on many occasions, but that's why there are more difficulty levels than just one and various difficulty mods.

  • ChromeChrome Member Posts: 4
    Honestly, i rather liked ToB. If i had to choose a 'worst' Baldur's Gate it would be the first because of it's (initially) incredibly slow pace.

    The entire story of Baldur's Gate is that the player character is the child of a god, or rather, an incarnation. I don't see why 'absurd' powerlevels would be out of the question at the end of the story given that's what it's always been heading towards.

    And i'm saying this as a person who usually likes more low-powered settings.

  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    ToB is to the Baldur's Gate saga as Return of the Jedi is to the Star Wars trilogy - it's the weakest link, and it has shortcomings, but still a worthwhile experience. And just like suggesting someone to ignore RotJ, proposing doing away with ToB is a ludicrous suggestion.

  • DefKnoLDefKnoL Member Posts: 3
    I am looking forward to playing ToB again after I have developed my character in the previous games. I ejoyed it the first time and am sure that I will enjoy it in the Enhanced edition as well.

  • Raistlin82Raistlin82 Member Posts: 256
    I got an idea.
    You know how you can better enjoy the game, if you dislike ToB?
    How about... you just STOP PLAYING after you finish BG2 (and avoid going to Watcher's Keep)?
    This way, it's like ToB was never in the game to begin with.

    Much much easier, and you and the others who dislike ToB don't need to start requests or petitions to SPOIL EVERYONE ELSE'S FUN. ;)

  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    To be honest, i was disappointed by ToB (the game content). But ToB (the engine) is great.
    Some improvements could be done to the content, but cutting it is unrealistic.

    Ascension's dialog improvements would be good to have.

  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862

    I got an idea.
    You know how you can better enjoy the game, if you dislike ToB?
    How about... you just STOP PLAYING after you finish BG2 (and avoid going to Watcher's Keep)?
    This way, it's like ToB was never in the game to begin with.

    Much much easier, and you and the others who dislike ToB don't need to start requests or petitions to SPOIL EVERYONE ELSE'S FUN. ;)

    You misunderstood the OP. He would like to play ToB, but not this current version.

  • TalonfireTalonfire Member Posts: 17
    edited November 2012
    I don't think a major retcon is necessary. I personally found Throne of Bhaal to be an excellent and satisfying conclusion to the Bhaalspawn saga despite enjoying Baldur's Gate and Shadows of Amn more, the storyline wasn't as bad as some people make it out to be. This is not to say that it couldn't be improved, I'd like to see David Gaider's Ascension dialogue implemented into the game to offer more extensive role playing opportunities during the storyline without the ridiculously frustrating boss battles. I'm well aware that this is unlikely to happen due to Overhaul's contract, however.

    Something that could be done though is fleshing out the existing experience through additional side quests. The lack of side quests is probably Throne of Bhaal's biggest weakness as currently the entire experience is just following the rather brief storyline which just takes you through a series of hack and slash dungeon crawls. Having some additional "adventures" and smaller distractions in Tethyr would go a long way in making ToB an experience more on par with its predecessors, especially if there's more to the new content then simply fighting your way through a dungeon.

  • CactusCactus Member Posts: 152
    Agree with @Talonfire: Give ToB a number of sidequests to make the experience less linear, and more "role playable". Overhaul's contract seems to prevent them changing the game, but allows adding new content, right?

  • RedGuardRedGuard Member Posts: 672
    Cactus said:

    Agree with @Talonfire: Give ToB a number of sidequests to make the experience less linear, and more "role playable". Overhaul's contract seems to prevent them changing the game, but allows adding new content, right?

    Yeah, I think they can get away with adding new areas and npc's (they have the Black Pits for BG:EE). They could possibly add some new areas to the map and offer more exploration and questing for the ToB section of BG2:EE theoretically.

  • Sese79Sese79 Member Posts: 478
    No. Do not remove it. It was a great conclusion for the storyline.

  • AADA7AAADA7A Member Posts: 32
    Do not remove it. But I won't play it without ascension, no sir! Looking forward to the new content for BG2:EE though.

  • ego1steego1ste Member Posts: 88
    BG1 > BG2 .... TOB. If i remember correctly they rushed it and removed some stuff.

  • ALIENALIEN Member Posts: 1,164
    edited November 2012
    I'm sorry for you if you wasn't able to appreciate ToB as I do. I loved it and it was an ending to the great journey that i started a long time ago. It's been over 10 years and i still want to play it again and again. Again with different NPS's, different mods(Ascension and Longest Journey it's just ... OMG!) and with different main characters.

    If you really want to take away all of those great moments from young cRPG fans you are completely out of you mind.

  • FoerthanFoerthan Member Posts: 23
    Pretty much the only complaint I have about ToB is that it's too short, and to an extent, too linear (although I think the feeling of being rushed fits well in ToB).

    The best thing that Overhaul could do is add multiple large sidequests to add additional content to the expansion and to extend the game time. I had to wait a *lot* to finish all the NPC interactions (romances, etc.) because the main quest was simply too short.

    But really, remove the expansion? I'd never pay for anything Overhaul did afterwards.

  • etaglocetagloc Member Posts: 349
    TOB was decent... removeing it would be stupid IMHO

  • LifatLifat Member Posts: 353
    ... Are you seriously calling TOB the "third BG"?
    You may want to take a look at this:'s_Gate_III:_The_Black_Hound
    TOB was always meant as an expansion for bg2 just like TOTSC was an expansion for bg1.

    Tbh whether or not TOB was good or not is irrelevant. The contracts Overhaul signed prohibits them from doing it, or at least that is my understanding.
    Even if they were allowed to scrap TOB completely I'd feel cheated and in all honesty I wouldn't buy BG2:EE without TOB.

    As others have mentioned, no one is forcing you to play the TOB expansion. You can easily skip it if you want to so why should all the people who want to play it not be allowed to? One of BG's greatest strength's is that it is heavily moddable meaning that people can play the game the way they want to.

    I don't understand why people are trying to force people to play games the way they deem the right way. If it isn't interfering with the way you play the game then why do you care how people play the game?

    Furthermore... "it is universally agreed that TOB was the worst installment of BG series"... HUH? This is the first I've heard of it. I think TOB was and is GREAT.

  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    I think that ToB just needs better pacing. Add more exploration, more sidequests and more interesting diversions, and I think it'll be fine. However, I do think that enemy equipment should be downgraded and AI upgraded. Smart enemies are more plausible than every henchman coming with his very own +2 weapon at the least. If this means replacing the weapon immunity with another bonus, so be it.

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