The thing I dislike with damage or even DPS is that I think it is far too easy to come by.
It doesn't matter if you have 7 or 10 APR, that you deal 25 damage on average per hit or 32, in the end every bosses in the game The Ravager excluded will fall in less than a round anyway.
In my last no-reload run, it was my first time ever doing ToB and I thought that Melyssan or Demogorgon were going to be awesome challenges but they weren't, I simply clicked GWW, clicked on them and they literally exploded in 5 seconds.
The thing I dislike with damage or even DPS is that I think it is far too easy to come by.
in the end every bosses in the game The Ravager excluded will fall in less than a round anyway. .
I agree, if my calculation are not wrong a party (with the EE rules and spells) can have up to 160APR, enough to destoy anything before you can begin to enjoy the battle, there is no more fun. I prefer smaller parties, versatily oriented and not dps oriented, their APR potential at max level is like 80-90 (often with 2 stacked bard songs, no mislead clones singing), and even so I never use them that way, unless I am testing their dps potential.
I find very interesting the discussions about the different builds, comparing little diffeences in APR and dmg, but sometime I wander if is so important, a not too PWG party end game can destroy anything very fast, is the early game, if well modded, that is hard to beat.
For me, the CF and scarlet combo come at a time in SOA when my main character still has a 19 strength. While I do use speed weapons in SOA it is UAI that allows the +3 scarlet sword and you gain UAI at the same time you are leaving the underdark with the CF components.
The jump from 19 to 25 strength and the better offhand weapon made a very noticeable difference that I could feel when I equipped it. If you haven't tried this out yet I would recommend it. I feel it really makes a difference and besides, it's fun to push your characters math to the max.
I agree that you can deal enough damage to blow through any one character by the end of TOB within a round as long as their protection is down, but I tend to focus on destroying as many enemies at one time as possible. TOB shifts the fights toward more mass melee so you still benefit from the meat grinder dual wield setup. I also try to push how long I can go without using potions or needing to rest. I don't look at one fight at a time, I usually focus on one map at a time as the challenge.
With improved enemies and absolutely every SCS option maxed out I find Sendai's enclave and Abizigal's lair to still be difficult. Sure the nameless one is a weakling when using SCS but that is only because SCS should be used with Ascension in order to make the five and the nameless one more difficult. Of course the final battle in Ascension is pretty tough as well. Being that Ascension still doesn't work with EE I have not been using it the last few runs. Still the game can challenge me even with a FMT as long as I don't use small parties, allow grand mastery, remove XP cap ect... I push everything to the max with SCS and ascension. I just wish ascension would get here to help make the boss fights more challenging to go along with the mass melee battles in between. Once that happens I think I will be totally satisfied with the difficulty.
Last time I played with everything maxed out on SCS I had a pretty tough time under spellhold prison when I awoke to find all of my gear was gone! SCS allows you to get all nerdy with your OP character and then it changes the rules sometimes and makes the game challenging regardless of what character you have built.
The thing I dislike with damage or even DPS is that I think it is far too easy to come by.
in the end every bosses in the game The Ravager excluded will fall in less than a round anyway. .
I agree, if my calculation are not wrong a party (with the EE rules and spells) can have up to 160APR, enough to destoy anything before you can begin to enjoy the battle, there is no more fun. I prefer smaller parties, versatily oriented and not dps oriented, their APR potential at max level is like 80-90 (often with 2 stacked bard songs, no mislead clones singing), and even so I never use them that way, unless I am testing their dps potential.
APR is Attacks Per Round, unless I missed something. Since it is capped to 10 and you can have max 6 characters, then 10*6=60. Where do the other 100 come from? And btw it MAKES sense to discuss which build is stronger, because there are many people (like me) that after installing SCS, Tactics, Improved Anvil, etc, try to solo them. I personally keep a full party just for banters and quests, scouting and playing only with my main char, but quite often I have to ctrl+j the other 5 away from the fight. That's the price to pay to keep the game challenging without breaking too much my immersion in the story. At that point there are builds that can make it and others that simply lack the versatility to proceed.
Yeah APR means attacks per round. He may be considering things like backstabs and critical strike double damage in his calculations. Personally, I don't think you are that powerful in BG1 or SOA and I think maximizing damage makes a huge difference all the way until TOB. Even then, TOB is slanted toward mass combat so any extra APR is going to allow you to do as much damage as possible before attacking the next character. It's still just as useful. The 6 main boss battles would be the exception and they are not improved in SCS because SCS was meant to be used with Ascension. In Ascension the nameless one has a whole bunch of nasty summons that automatically appear and his hit points are increased and protections are thickened. I remember Abizagal boss battle had you fighting two dragons at once and Yaga had way more enemies which made it feel like you were facing off against and army instead of a party. Of course the final battle with all 5 of them at once is killer as well. Combining the improved boss battles with all of the mass melee battles like Amkanthern and the oasis, Sendai's lair and WK truly makes both max protection and max APR damage useful almost the entirety of TOB in my opinion.
BTW thanks for the link to the beta, I was unaware. I will give it a shot on my next play though.
@SpaceInvader, 6 F/M multi GWW = 60APR 6 simulacra (one each F/M) GWW = 60APR more* 5 summoned spiders IHasted do the rest
*Note: In my not EE setup it works and don't break the rule of only 1 simulacrum at the same time (I intend it 1 for each mage, I don't see the reason why 2 or more mages can not use the same spell). In my setup in not possible to have 2 simulacra of the same character, if I try I waste the spell and on the log screen is told that I can't have more then 1 at the same time. Thing that doesn't happen if a second mage cast it. With other summons, multiple PI, more then 1 planetar or more then 5 summons or 7 traps per area I have to use cheese like cast from PI, use CC because other way the game don't let me do so. With more mages casting 1 sim each no cheese is needed, so in my book is a legal tactic as developers was careful to avoid multiple casts of sim from the same mage and multiple or elsewhere illegal presence of planetars, devas, traps and summons. I don't know if EE nerfed this or if is a legal tactic also there.
It's a totally legit tactic, in EE each character can have his Project Image (which can cast Simulacrum) and his Simulacrum (and the Simulacrum can create another Simulacrum which can create another Simulacrum until the 4th generation, all of them can use Project Image aswell).
There are ways of protect against TS. Anyway I am not talking of multigenerational clones and PI, just a plain simple simulacrum that can be dispelled (if needed can protect himself with SI A) but not TSighted, an can perform physical attacks without shapeshift. Each FM can go with CC(simulacrum, PFMW,other spell as needed) and 5 of them have ready a trigger (spider spawn, IH, other buf for the spyder), the 6th FM a debuffing trigger for the enemies. So a couple of seconds after the battle begin the party have 120APR (splitted in groups of 20, each group with one of the best weapons, 20APR CF, 20APR FoA, 20APR vorpal Halbard.....), at the beginning of round 2 other 40APR from the summons kick in. No time lost in prebuffing or pre summoning. Just go and kill everything. No enemy or group of enemies can resist to such army. And this is the 100% legal version, if we go into the cheesy stuff...... I don't even want to think about it, even my PWGamer stomach can't digest certain things
60 APR max? Are you kidding? I thought we were talking of PWGaming.....
As my good friend often tells: "don't teach my hamster......"
@gorgonzola As I said, I just play solo. It is even possible to achieve 200+ apr if you consider to use sims, summons (side note: spiders aren't reliable either) or PIs. I prefer to use only strategies with 100% success (I hate wild mages, despite being totally op) in no-reload runs. If I cast my sims, PIs and spiders, as you said, I may as well say Bye Bye to them with the first Death Spell that summons automatically trigger. Also, a lot of enemies have PfMW in contingencies and such. The tactic you described isn't that effective vs, let's say, the Twisted Rune with SCS and Tactics installed (totally different from the vanilla version). But still it can be done with a Sorcerer under lvl10. I always address the Sorcerer class because it is hands down the most powerful spellcaster (if we don't consider super lucky wild mages), and spells are the best and most various sources of defense AND offense the game has to offer. Mages are so broken in this game they can even cast what they want in a wild or dead magic zone or after being affected by an Anti-Magic Ray without breaking a sweat. So yeah, there's pretty much nothing that can stop a Sorcerer.
Don't get me wrong, fighters are super funny to play, especially if you don't like to micro your every single action and just want to let your char whack-whack and enjoy the massacre while grinning with your fingers crossed under your chin
@SpaceInvader, I wrote about the 160APR as maximum legal APR (AFAIK) in a context where I was also telling "I prefer smaller parties, versatily oriented and not dps oriented". I explained it in more detail only because you asked about, and I don't consider it the most powerful tactic a party can have, only the maximum legal APR possible. More APR is only possible with cheese. Even without cheese 18 toons can not be effective against something smaller then a Dragon, they just have not enough space. A IH Planetar is more effective then 5 IH spiders and being gated is not killed by Death Spell, also Simulacra is not killed as is not summoned. Spiders, if not killed by Death Spell, can be very effective summons if IHasted and with a berd and his sim singing, high APR and +8 +8 +8 make them pretty good fighters also in late game. They can be very useful against multiple not boss enemies, if you have a bard and that helm.
If you talk about soloing, sorceres and Twisted Rune I can't agree with you anymore then I do now. My last solo sorc, Tactics, not vanilla, has destroied Chateau Irenicus party, has defeated Twisted Rune about the same level then your and long before the end of chapter 2 was a God walking on Amn casting lev 9 spells. Really, you don't have to convince me, I know. And in a party, I say only that my party defeated Eclipse party ( Solaufein mod) in few rounds without taking a single scratch, without the sorc I doubt it had been possible. There was only another reason, all the toons was somehow arcane casters, only exception Jaheira, that the sorcerer had to babysit and make invisible, the only way to have her not blinded and chunked. Only 2 fighters (multi) in the party.
As you see I am not the most fighter oriented person (my love go to thieves as fun to play them, arcane casters as power) even if i appreciate them, they can kill stuff fast and without micromanagement.
@gorgonzola Yep, I agree with everything. But I meant that a lvl9 Sorc can do that. And ofc I never allow party members to cast a single spell or attack So, therefore, to stay on topic: Sorcerer is the most powerful "build", imo.
Ah I see, I wasn't thinking of making a party of 6 F/M. I also had the FMT in mind who doesn't get simulacrum unless he grinds at the end of TOB in a 6 person party. (My way of playing the game.) I usually don't consider summons to be included in my party APR though I have nothing against it but that explains why we were confused. I understand what you meant now, thanks for the explanation.
All these discussions, did anyone tried a run lately based on core rules and unmodded (core game files BG2EE with latest patch). Did anyone noticed some enemy spell casting cannot be disrupted? And some enemies now seemed to cast spells "at will" especially certain demons etc (you only hear a sound effect, no spell casting sound + no indication of what is being cast).
The point of my hypothetical 6 F/M multi party, that I had tested but never run trough the real game, was only the legal max APR. But imho there is an important lesson that we can learn from it.
Every FM, don't matter if multi or dual, kitted or unkitted, in the late game is much more powerful then any other fighter.
Don't matter if the other fighter is a R/C, a pure kensai, a berseker/C or what you want. The FM will have the best protections, both from magic (SI, ST, Globes and so on) and physical (Stoneskin, M images, PFMW, Mantles and so on), protections that can only be casted on self. And he will have very good APR (GM + IH for dual, GWW for multi) doubled with Simulacrum for 18-20APR. He will also have his arcane offensive and debuffing power, that he can use with sequencers, trigger and CC, so he steals a very little time to his physical combat. And on top he will duplicate the effect of one OP weapon, 20APR vorpal, or stat draining or slowing....
The FM is the ultimate combat machine in this game, no other fighter class can mach his physical attack capability (well the helm let other classes do it, but only for 1 toon, 1 time x rest), his defence capability, his debuffing capability. And only pure casters can outperform him dealing damage with magic.
One more thing about Really high party APR, the enemy mage often simply doesn't have time to cast his debuffing and damaging spells. Even with contingiences. He will never cast that Death Spell to kill your summons, that DM to debuff you, that CC 3xADHW to kill you. Think of a mage protected with Stoneskin, elemental protections and PFMW, if targeted with 80 or 100 APR ranged with unenchanted ammunition, how long he lasts? Often he dies before his CC trigger. I am not telling that really high party APR is the way to go, just that when you go that way strange things begin to happen....
The Fighter Mage doesn't have backstab and he doesn't have UAI, assassination, spike trap, and while he can cast time stop he can't chain multiple time stop traps combined with mislead for 10X quintuple damage backstabs that do critical strike double damage. If you were to set 7 time stop traps that would give 11.5 rounds of time stop. Being that a FMT can do 10X attacks per round and he could use mislead to not only set the traps but backstab 10 X 11.5 times at quintuple damage that would be the equivalent of about 575 attacks and double the damage on the first 50 attacks if you use critical strike HLA. It would be the equivalent of about 625 normal attacks from your FMT before the enemy can react. I would subtract about 75 attacks from that figure since you can't actually backstab with your off hand 2 times a round but you can still hit for double damage. So (roughly) 550 attacks lol. I also think having the ability to detect illusions permanently while you are fighting is much better than having to cast it multiple times in battles at the right time while you are trying to fight. Spike trap can be used on bosses that are immune to backstab and time stop.
In my mind the more APR and damage you do the better, no matter how you are playing the game. The faster you kill one enemy the more time you have to kill others in the same round. It's always beneficial to max it out to the fullest. Protection on the other hand is not so important in a 6 person party without mods. Also the more casting your fighter does the less fighting he does so it's optimal to scout ahead which is easier with thief abilities and then pre-buff and leave all of the casting to your casters and leave the fighting to your maxed out DPS FMT and support fighter NPC's like Serevok.
I do agree that a multi Fighter Mage has slightly better character progression and the benefit of level 9 spells but it's not worth the sacrifice of thief abilities in my opinion. I wouldn't want my fighter wasting time casting spells anyway so BBOD is probably the only real benefit that the Fighter mage is getting in combat.
With SCS I don't see how anything can come close to the FMT in terms of overall protection and damage. A fighter can do solid damage with no protection and a FM can do the same damage as a fighter WITH magic protection and level 9 spells but a FMT does more damage than both thanks to the thief skills and he still has the protection of a mage. Unless you don't have dedicated mages in your party that already have level 9 spells, then I don't really see a benefit to the FM other than slightly faster character progression. He is a little better caster but for me at least, I don't use my FMT to cast outside of pre-buffs or to bring down enemy protections during a time stop trap so it's of little significance. The Fighter and fighter mage can do a little more DPR if you don't utilize the FMT's 10 attacks per a round but the FMT will still do more damage either way if he utilizes his thief skills properly. If you do utilize his thief skills and 10 APR then he will do more damage than any character in the game by a significant amount other than the F/T. The FT can only use mislead with scrolls and in SCS the loss of magic protection so there is that. The FMT does suffer noticeable from a thaco loss during the mid section of the trilogy and the FM and FT do gain an advantage to hit during that time. At the end game though I haven't noticed any problems with the FMT in combat at all. He will end the game with a -12 thaco if you use CF and a -10 thaco if you use Carsomyr.
Dual class does have slightly better damage and thaco per hit due to grand mastery but I don't know that it really matters if you don't have thief abilities as well. They have inferior HLA options and do less damage overall without the thief abilities and cannot utilize all of the equipment in the game like a UAI based character. Also dual classing is pretty annoying and makes little sense RP wise fore most people.
All these discussions, did anyone tried a run lately based on core rules and unmodded (core game files BG2EE with latest patch). Did anyone noticed some enemy spell casting cannot be disrupted? And some enemies now seemed to cast spells "at will" especially certain demons etc (you only hear a sound effect, no spell casting sound + no indication of what is being cast).
I have noticed this but I figured SCS was the culprit. Your saying you have this problem without mods? I don't know if it's intentional or not. It definitely adds to the challenge!
@the_sextein , when I was talking about FM, don't matter if multi or dual, kitted or unkitted as the ultimate combat machine in this game I was talking of each character that combine fighter and mage. FMT is one of them, as FMC is. They add something to the mix, at a price, slower leveling and no 9lev spells, but still have simulacrum, contingency, trigger and sequencers to cast fast wihout loosing mlee time and the only on self protections. I forgot to name them but in the context of my post is evident that they are among the FM as ultimate combat machines.
And I love FMT, and never tried FMC until now, but I will..... I love also scouting, I never go without a real thief, and be prepared.....
@the_sextein A F>M can have infinite Time Stops through Wish spell. EDIT: Plus, to place your traps there must be no enemy in sight, which is not always possible. Examples: not enough time enough to place all the traps before the fight starts, chased by a hasted melee enemy (high SCS mages that summon Planetar anyone?), narrow places, etc.
True but no backstab and no UAI and no thief HLA's and it's pretty easy to place a bunch of traps just out of out of range and lure an enemy in. The idea is to do as much damage as possible as fast as possible. At least for me it is. I am so used to playing plain old fighter types that I am a bit freakish about that because it reduces damage when you are a fighter. In general that is my goal though with any character because you have other NPC's in your party that don't have as much protection. For you, playing solo I can see where it wouldn't be as important. I usually relate the amount of power I have by how quickly I can destroy the enemy.
The idea is to do as much damage as possible as fast as possible. At least for me it is. I am so used to playing plain old fighter types that I am a bit freakish about that because it reduces damage when you are a fighter. In general that is my goal though with any character because you have other NPC's in your party that don't have as much protection.
The fact that other NPC's in the party don't have much protection is a clue of their weakness, not of the plain fighter power, and, as he rely only on HP and AC for protection, is a clue of his own weakness, even if he can easily beat the game, unmodded and also with most of the mods. but a fighter/mage/eventually T or C doesn't have reduced damage when fighting, as he double his damage output using simulacrum, no plain fighter can mach his mlee damage output ( I already told before of the helm thing ), and no clever dual like Berseker/C or Kensai/T can.
@SpaceInvader pointed some of the advantages of the dual and 2 class-multi, @the_sextein, some of the ones of the 3 class version and there is still much more to tell about. But from a certain point of the game, when he get lev 8 spells, the fighter/mage/eventually T or C is the best physical damage dealer, in plain fight, without accounting spike traps, backstabs and assassination (FMT), damaging spells in CC (dual and 2 classes multi), harm (FMC) or other. Just he, his self casted IH or GWW and his simmi.
I wasn't trying to say a fighter is a power player. Just that I used them a lot when I first started playing the game. I understand that the NPC's in the game have weaknesses and are not as good as rolling your own party but I like working with what the game has to offer on it's own because it makes the game more interesting to me to use them over a party that I have made on my own.
Personaly, I don't see the "best character build" as the one who does the most DPS. What defines for me "the best" is how many clicks the build requiers to win battles: The less, the better.
Even a wimp build can clear most battlefield with a huge micromanagement work and a cunning strategy. There are videos of people having killed the lich for its ring at level 1... but a true ultimate character would destroy ennemies without even requiering you to actualy look at the screen: It would just break the game just by existing.
For this reason, the best character is actualy best sought within the builds featuring an anti-magic protection: Monks, Berzerkers, and Wizard Slayer/Thieves... and Viconia for NPCs
The best build starts with the best defense, not the best offense. Offense comes in second, because if you need to cast a ton of spells to protect you, or a ton of spells to damage fast enough so nothing is cast your way, you're already doing in a complex way what a Berzerker does in 1 click and a monk or WS only by leveling and equipping 2 items.
For this very reason, the Blade sounds also something underestimated class for a CHARNAME.
Hear'dalis is really poor exemple of what the class can do due to crappy endurance, race and several other problems... but a nicely built Blade can wear The Purifier and the Armor of Flesh at the same time, and with other MR items reach 100% MR and still have an insane AC due to Defensive Spin and 8 APR due to Improved Haste. With 2 clicks, the blade turn into a true tank able to dish out a really decent DPS. Not the best DPS, yes, but when you have one of the lowest AC of the game and 100% MR, you can take your time.
The monk at epic level does the same but cannot use level 7 mage spells.
Actually no, it doesn't matter if with a Sorcerer I have to cast many spells to get my immunities. I have improved alacrity and contingencies to buff up everything in less than a round.
The most powerful build has nothing to do with micromanaging or clicks. It is the one able to deal with the largest number of situations (possibly all) with the highest % of success.
And sorry, but Aerie, Jan and Edwin (even Haer'Dalis pre-song nerf) are on a totally different league compared to Viconia.
The most powerful build has nothing to do with micromanaging or clicks. It is the one able to deal with the largest number of situations (possibly all) with the highest % of success.
This is your definition of "powerful". I don't share it.
"Powerful" is a subjective notion. What is "power"? I explained what is the "ultimate power" for me: It's winning without having to lift a finger. Not winning having to cast 10 buffs, no matter how fast you can cast them. Your definition of "power" is different, correct too, but not automaticly something others have to agree upon.
You know the game very well, so you could have forget that notion, but you are not truly supposed to play the game knowing what fight is coming, and what you have to protect against, before it even begins. Most players play the game the regular way, and for them, a mage is not -that-powerful at all.
Why? Very simply because a mage is only as powerful as you -know- what is coming at you. So you can prepare your spellbook, buffs, sequensors, accordingly. There is no "high % of success" with when you do not have that prior knowledge. If you keep using all your buffs every 2mn to have them all always ready, you're just going to turn nuts.
For a regular player, i.e., most of players, a 100%MR character, or a berzerker, is a -lot- more powerful than a mage. Simply because it counters almost everything without that prior knowledge.
Call it "noob friendly" if you want, but be "always ready" this is a form of power. Your knowledge as a player compensate for the weaknesses of the mages which is the need of foresight, but it doesn't means they have no weaknesses to start with. Your knowledge of the game only make you forget about it, and from a certain perspective, what is "powerful" here is not the build, but the player.
a true ultimate character would destroy ennemies without even requiering you to actualy look at the screen: It would just break the game just by existing.
And after that you mention Viconia as best NPC. I mean, with statements like this we are bound to not understand each other
Comments
It doesn't matter if you have 7 or 10 APR, that you deal 25 damage on average per hit or 32, in the end every bosses in the game The Ravager excluded will fall in less than a round anyway.
In my last no-reload run, it was my first time ever doing ToB and I thought that Melyssan or Demogorgon were going to be awesome challenges but they weren't, I simply clicked GWW, clicked on them and they literally exploded in 5 seconds.
I prefer smaller parties, versatily oriented and not dps oriented, their APR potential at max level is like 80-90 (often with 2 stacked bard songs, no mislead clones singing), and even so I never use them that way, unless I am testing their dps potential.
I find very interesting the discussions about the different builds, comparing little diffeences in APR and dmg, but sometime I wander if is so important, a not too PWG party end game can destroy anything very fast, is the early game, if well modded, that is hard to beat.
The jump from 19 to 25 strength and the better offhand weapon made a very noticeable difference that I could feel when I equipped it. If you haven't tried this out yet I would recommend it. I feel it really makes a difference and besides, it's fun to push your characters math to the max.
I agree that you can deal enough damage to blow through any one character by the end of TOB within a round as long as their protection is down, but I tend to focus on destroying as many enemies at one time as possible. TOB shifts the fights toward more mass melee so you still benefit from the meat grinder dual wield setup. I also try to push how long I can go without using potions or needing to rest. I don't look at one fight at a time, I usually focus on one map at a time as the challenge.
With improved enemies and absolutely every SCS option maxed out I find Sendai's enclave and Abizigal's lair to still be difficult. Sure the nameless one is a weakling when using SCS but that is only because SCS should be used with Ascension in order to make the five and the nameless one more difficult. Of course the final battle in Ascension is pretty tough as well. Being that Ascension still doesn't work with EE I have not been using it the last few runs. Still the game can challenge me even with a FMT as long as I don't use small parties, allow grand mastery, remove XP cap ect... I push everything to the max with SCS and ascension. I just wish ascension would get here to help make the boss fights more challenging to go along with the mass melee battles in between. Once that happens I think I will be totally satisfied with the difficulty.
Last time I played with everything maxed out on SCS I had a pretty tough time under spellhold prison when I awoke to find all of my gear was gone! SCS allows you to get all nerdy with your OP character and then it changes the rules sometimes and makes the game challenging regardless of what character you have built.
Where do the other 100 come from?
And btw it MAKES sense to discuss which build is stronger, because there are many people (like me) that after installing SCS, Tactics, Improved Anvil, etc, try to solo them.
I personally keep a full party just for banters and quests, scouting and playing only with my main char, but quite often I have to ctrl+j the other 5 away from the fight. That's the price to pay to keep the game challenging without breaking too much my immersion in the story.
At that point there are builds that can make it and others that simply lack the versatility to proceed.
Here: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/45563/ascension-v1-5-beta-enhanced-edition-release-updated-1-20-2016/p1
BTW thanks for the link to the beta, I was unaware. I will give it a shot on my next play though.
6 F/M multi GWW = 60APR
6 simulacra (one each F/M) GWW = 60APR more*
5 summoned spiders IHasted do the rest
*Note:
In my not EE setup it works and don't break the rule of only 1 simulacrum at the same time (I intend it 1 for each mage, I don't see the reason why 2 or more mages can not use the same spell). In my setup in not possible to have 2 simulacra of the same character, if I try I waste the spell and on the log screen is told that I can't have more then 1 at the same time. Thing that doesn't happen if a second mage cast it. With other summons, multiple PI, more then 1 planetar or more then 5 summons or 7 traps per area I have to use cheese like cast from PI, use CC because other way the game don't let me do so. With more mages casting 1 sim each no cheese is needed, so in my book is a legal tactic as developers was careful to avoid multiple casts of sim from the same mage and multiple or elsewhere illegal presence of planetars, devas, traps and summons. I don't know if EE nerfed this or if is a legal tactic also there.
But this tactic is not reliable, since with some mods every damn spellcaster hast a True Sight.
Anyway I am not talking of multigenerational clones and PI, just a plain simple simulacrum that can be dispelled (if needed can protect himself with SI A) but not TSighted, an can perform physical attacks without shapeshift.
Each FM can go with CC(simulacrum, PFMW,other spell as needed) and 5 of them have ready a trigger (spider spawn, IH, other buf for the spyder), the 6th FM a debuffing trigger for the enemies.
So a couple of seconds after the battle begin the party have 120APR (splitted in groups of 20, each group with one of the best weapons, 20APR CF, 20APR FoA, 20APR vorpal Halbard.....), at the beginning of round 2 other 40APR from the summons kick in. No time lost in prebuffing or pre summoning. Just go and kill everything.
No enemy or group of enemies can resist to such army.
And this is the 100% legal version, if we go into the cheesy stuff...... I don't even want to think about it, even my PWGamer stomach can't digest certain things
60 APR max? Are you kidding?
I thought we were talking of PWGaming.....
As my good friend often tells: "don't teach my hamster......"
As I said, I just play solo.
It is even possible to achieve 200+ apr if you consider to use sims, summons (side note: spiders aren't reliable either) or PIs.
I prefer to use only strategies with 100% success (I hate wild mages, despite being totally op) in no-reload runs.
If I cast my sims, PIs and spiders, as you said, I may as well say Bye Bye to them with the first Death Spell that summons automatically trigger.
Also, a lot of enemies have PfMW in contingencies and such.
The tactic you described isn't that effective vs, let's say, the Twisted Rune with SCS and Tactics installed (totally different from the vanilla version). But still it can be done with a Sorcerer under lvl10.
I always address the Sorcerer class because it is hands down the most powerful spellcaster (if we don't consider super lucky wild mages), and spells are the best and most various sources of defense AND offense the game has to offer.
Mages are so broken in this game they can even cast what they want in a wild or dead magic zone or after being affected by an Anti-Magic Ray without breaking a sweat.
So yeah, there's pretty much nothing that can stop a Sorcerer.
Don't get me wrong, fighters are super funny to play, especially if you don't like to micro your every single action and just want to let your char whack-whack and enjoy the massacre while grinning with your fingers crossed under your chin
I explained it in more detail only because you asked about, and I don't consider it the most powerful tactic a party can have, only the maximum legal APR possible. More APR is only possible with cheese. Even without cheese 18 toons can not be effective against something smaller then a Dragon, they just have not enough space.
A IH Planetar is more effective then 5 IH spiders and being gated is not killed by Death Spell, also Simulacra is not killed as is not summoned. Spiders, if not killed by Death Spell, can be very effective summons if IHasted and with a berd and his sim singing, high APR and +8 +8 +8 make them pretty good fighters also in late game. They can be very useful against multiple not boss enemies, if you have a bard and that helm.
If you talk about soloing, sorceres and Twisted Rune I can't agree with you anymore then I do now.
My last solo sorc, Tactics, not vanilla, has destroied Chateau Irenicus party, has defeated Twisted Rune about the same level then your and long before the end of chapter 2 was a God walking on Amn casting lev 9 spells. Really, you don't have to convince me, I know.
And in a party, I say only that my party defeated Eclipse party ( Solaufein mod) in few rounds without taking a single scratch, without the sorc I doubt it had been possible. There was only another reason, all the toons was somehow arcane casters, only exception Jaheira, that the sorcerer had to babysit and make invisible, the only way to have her not blinded and chunked. Only 2 fighters (multi) in the party.
As you see I am not the most fighter oriented person (my love go to thieves as fun to play them, arcane casters as power) even if i appreciate them, they can kill stuff fast and without micromanagement.
Yep, I agree with everything. But I meant that a lvl9 Sorc can do that.
And ofc I never allow party members to cast a single spell or attack
So, therefore, to stay on topic: Sorcerer is the most powerful "build", imo.
But imho there is an important lesson that we can learn from it.
Every FM, don't matter if multi or dual, kitted or unkitted, in the late game is much more powerful then any other fighter.
Don't matter if the other fighter is a R/C, a pure kensai, a berseker/C or what you want. The FM will have the best protections, both from magic (SI, ST, Globes and so on) and physical (Stoneskin, M images, PFMW, Mantles and so on), protections that can only be casted on self. And he will have very good APR (GM + IH for dual, GWW for multi) doubled with Simulacrum for 18-20APR. He will also have his arcane offensive and debuffing power, that he can use with sequencers, trigger and CC, so he steals a very little time to his physical combat.
And on top he will duplicate the effect of one OP weapon, 20APR vorpal, or stat draining or slowing....
The FM is the ultimate combat machine in this game, no other fighter class can mach his physical attack capability (well the helm let other classes do it, but only for 1 toon, 1 time x rest), his defence capability, his debuffing capability.
And only pure casters can outperform him dealing damage with magic.
Think of a mage protected with Stoneskin, elemental protections and PFMW, if targeted with 80 or 100 APR ranged with unenchanted ammunition, how long he lasts? Often he dies before his CC trigger.
I am not telling that really high party APR is the way to go, just that when you go that way strange things begin to happen....
In my mind the more APR and damage you do the better, no matter how you are playing the game. The faster you kill one enemy the more time you have to kill others in the same round. It's always beneficial to max it out to the fullest. Protection on the other hand is not so important in a 6 person party without mods. Also the more casting your fighter does the less fighting he does so it's optimal to scout ahead which is easier with thief abilities and then pre-buff and leave all of the casting to your casters and leave the fighting to your maxed out DPS FMT and support fighter NPC's like Serevok.
I do agree that a multi Fighter Mage has slightly better character progression and the benefit of level 9 spells but it's not worth the sacrifice of thief abilities in my opinion. I wouldn't want my fighter wasting time casting spells anyway so BBOD is probably the only real benefit that the Fighter mage is getting in combat.
With SCS I don't see how anything can come close to the FMT in terms of overall protection and damage. A fighter can do solid damage with no protection and a FM can do the same damage as a fighter WITH magic protection and level 9 spells but a FMT does more damage than both thanks to the thief skills and he still has the protection of a mage. Unless you don't have dedicated mages in your party that already have level 9 spells, then I don't really see a benefit to the FM other than slightly faster character progression. He is a little better caster but for me at least, I don't use my FMT to cast outside of pre-buffs or to bring down enemy protections during a time stop trap so it's of little significance. The Fighter and fighter mage can do a little more DPR if you don't utilize the FMT's 10 attacks per a round but the FMT will still do more damage either way if he utilizes his thief skills properly. If you do utilize his thief skills and 10 APR then he will do more damage than any character in the game by a significant amount other than the F/T. The FT can only use mislead with scrolls and in SCS the loss of magic protection so there is that. The FMT does suffer noticeable from a thaco loss during the mid section of the trilogy and the FM and FT do gain an advantage to hit during that time. At the end game though I haven't noticed any problems with the FMT in combat at all. He will end the game with a -12 thaco if you use CF and a -10 thaco if you use Carsomyr.
Dual class does have slightly better damage and thaco per hit due to grand mastery but I don't know that it really matters if you don't have thief abilities as well. They have inferior HLA options and do less damage overall without the thief abilities and cannot utilize all of the equipment in the game like a UAI based character. Also dual classing is pretty annoying and makes little sense RP wise fore most people.
when I was talking about FM, don't matter if multi or dual, kitted or unkitted as the ultimate combat machine in this game I was talking of each character that combine fighter and mage.
FMT is one of them, as FMC is.
They add something to the mix, at a price, slower leveling and no 9lev spells, but still have simulacrum, contingency, trigger and sequencers to cast fast wihout loosing mlee time and the only on self protections.
I forgot to name them but in the context of my post is evident that they are among the FM as ultimate combat machines.
And I love FMT, and never tried FMC until now, but I will.....
I love also scouting, I never go without a real thief, and be prepared.....
A F>M can have infinite Time Stops through Wish spell.
EDIT: Plus, to place your traps there must be no enemy in sight, which is not always possible.
Examples: not enough time enough to place all the traps before the fight starts, chased by a hasted melee enemy (high SCS mages that summon Planetar anyone?), narrow places, etc.
but a fighter/mage/eventually T or C doesn't have reduced damage when fighting, as he double his damage output using simulacrum, no plain fighter can mach his mlee damage output ( I already told before of the helm thing ), and no clever dual like Berseker/C or Kensai/T can.
@SpaceInvader pointed some of the advantages of the dual and 2 class-multi, @the_sextein, some of the ones of the 3 class version and there is still much more to tell about. But from a certain point of the game, when he get lev 8 spells, the fighter/mage/eventually T or C is the best physical damage dealer, in plain fight, without accounting spike traps, backstabs and assassination (FMT), damaging spells in CC (dual and 2 classes multi), harm (FMC) or other. Just he, his self casted IH or GWW and his simmi.
What defines for me "the best" is how many clicks the build requiers to win battles: The less, the better.
Even a wimp build can clear most battlefield with a huge micromanagement work and a cunning strategy. There are videos of people having killed the lich for its ring at level 1... but a true ultimate character would destroy ennemies without even requiering you to actualy look at the screen: It would just break the game just by existing.
For this reason, the best character is actualy best sought within the builds featuring an anti-magic protection: Monks, Berzerkers, and Wizard Slayer/Thieves... and Viconia for NPCs
The best build starts with the best defense, not the best offense. Offense comes in second, because if you need to cast a ton of spells to protect you, or a ton of spells to damage fast enough so nothing is cast your way, you're already doing in a complex way what a Berzerker does in 1 click and a monk or WS only by leveling and equipping 2 items.
For this very reason, the Blade sounds also something underestimated class for a CHARNAME.
Hear'dalis is really poor exemple of what the class can do due to crappy endurance, race and several other problems... but a nicely built Blade can wear The Purifier and the Armor of Flesh at the same time, and with other MR items reach 100% MR and still have an insane AC due to Defensive Spin and 8 APR due to Improved Haste.
With 2 clicks, the blade turn into a true tank able to dish out a really decent DPS. Not the best DPS, yes, but when you have one of the lowest AC of the game and 100% MR, you can take your time.
The monk at epic level does the same but cannot use level 7 mage spells.
The most powerful build has nothing to do with micromanaging or clicks.
It is the one able to deal with the largest number of situations (possibly all) with the highest % of success.
And sorry, but Aerie, Jan and Edwin (even Haer'Dalis pre-song nerf) are on a totally different league compared to Viconia.
"Powerful" is a subjective notion. What is "power"?
I explained what is the "ultimate power" for me: It's winning without having to lift a finger. Not winning having to cast 10 buffs, no matter how fast you can cast them.
Your definition of "power" is different, correct too, but not automaticly something others have to agree upon.
You know the game very well, so you could have forget that notion, but you are not truly supposed to play the game knowing what fight is coming, and what you have to protect against, before it even begins.
Most players play the game the regular way, and for them, a mage is not -that-powerful at all.
Why? Very simply because a mage is only as powerful as you -know- what is coming at you. So you can prepare your spellbook, buffs, sequensors, accordingly.
There is no "high % of success" with when you do not have that prior knowledge. If you keep using all your buffs every 2mn to have them all always ready, you're just going to turn nuts.
For a regular player, i.e., most of players, a 100%MR character, or a berzerker, is a -lot- more powerful than a mage. Simply because it counters almost everything without that prior knowledge.
Call it "noob friendly" if you want, but be "always ready" this is a form of power. Your knowledge as a player compensate for the weaknesses of the mages which is the need of foresight, but it doesn't means they have no weaknesses to start with. Your knowledge of the game only make you forget about it, and from a certain perspective, what is "powerful" here is not the build, but the player.
You said that And after that you mention Viconia as best NPC.
I mean, with statements like this we are bound to not understand each other