Your problem is the same that any "expert" on any game: you disregard any ability that is useful for regular players, like, here, all tools that can compensate for a lack of foresight. You know the game so much that you do not "need" anything to save you from ambushes, pitfalls, uncommon spells... you know where they are, and you are prepared for it.
For someone who knows everything, a mage is probably an extremly powerful character. Because he has a lot of tools. So with proper knowledge, you feel you can do everything better with it. But really, understand this: the game is not meant to be played by someone that knows it by heart. So the needs for a "powerfull" character can change with a regular player.
Passive abilities can save a regular player from reloading where spells will not. And it doesn't prevent him to beat the game at all neverless. You disregard them because who you are, failing to take the whole playerbase into account.
Thus, you're not wrong at all, but your evaluation only fits people like you. People who beat the game several times already
You know the game very well, so you could have forget that notion, but you are not truly supposed to play the game knowing what fight is coming, and what you have to protect against, before it even begins. Most players play the game the regular way, and for them, a mage is not -that-powerful at all.
Why? Very simply because a mage is only as powerful as you -know- what is coming at you. So you can prepare your spellbook, buffs, sequensors, accordingly. There is no "high % of success" with when you do not have that prior knowledge. If you keep using all your buffs every 2mn to have them all always ready, you're just going to turn nuts.
It doesn't work like this. On my first (and on Insane + SCS installed) run through Black Pits II with a solo Sorcerer I reloaded just once due to a multiplayer bug. Are they easy fights? Not particularly. Did I know what I was gonna fight? Not at all. Did I had top gear equipment? Not till the very end. I'm pretty sure tho, that with an end-game Sorcerer I can deal with any encounter. Unless we talk about mods that completely change spells behaviours or have scripts specifically designed against spellcasters (which I've never found so far).
For a regular player, i.e., most of players, a 100%MR character, or a berzerker, is a -lot- more powerful than a mage. Simply because it counters almost everything without that prior knowledge.
Call it "noob friendly" if you want, but be "always ready" this is a form of power. Your knowledge as a player compensate for the weaknesses of the mages which is the need of foresight, but it doesn't means they have no weaknesses to start with. Your knowledge of the game only make you forget about it, and from a certain perspective, what is "powerful" here is not the build, but the player.
I'm positive that a solo 100% MR Berserker won't make it in a no-reload even before the end of SoA with just SCS installed, EVEN metagaming. With a Sorcerer is fairly doable tho', and it is also because:
- it can deal Fire, Cold, Magic, Acid, Poison and Electric damage bypassing MR.
- can render itself immune to every physical, elemental and magical damage with literally a couple of spells.
- has the highest damage/round with an infinite loop of Alacrity/Time Stop/deplete spells/Wish.
- has the best 360° defense and is able to tank everything in the game potentially forever.
- has the strongest summons.
- if you're not against the use of exploit he becomes a completely broken God (the fixes of the 2.0 berely scratched the surface)
- it is a single class, which means that it levels-up relatively fast.
- has the largest amount of crowd-control, aoe damage-dealing and debuff spells.
I could go on...
If you add this to game/class knowledge and good strategies you have the answer to this thread.
Your problem is the same that any "expert" on any game: you disregard any ability that is useful for regular players, like, here, all tools that can compensate for a lack of foresight. You know the game so much that you do not "need" anything to save you from ambushes, pitfalls, uncommon spells... you know where they are, and you are prepared for it.
For someone who knows everything, a mage is probably an extremly powerful character. Because he has a lot of tools. So with proper knowledge, you feel you can do everything better with it. But really, understand this: the game is not meant to be played by someone that knows it by heart. So the needs for a "powerfull" character can change with a regular player.
Passive abilities can save a regular player from reloading where spells will not. And it doesn't prevent him to beat the game at all neverless. You disregard them because who you are, failing to take the whole playerbase into account.
Thus, you're not wrong at all, but your evaluation only fits people like you. People who beat the game several times already
You are definitely right here, I'm not sure I understand: why would someone not "expert" puzzle himself about the "best possible character build"? I thought it was a topic for people with a certain knowledge about the game mechanics.
There is a difference between "to have knowledge", and "to think only for people who have knowledge". In my eyes, if it takes an expert to achieve great results with a build, this is not the build which is powerful, but the player.
A powerful build is powerful no matter who plays it. But can you say that someone achieve great results in BG2 using those builds you say "powerful", if he knows nothing of the fights to come? I have my doubt on it.
But can you say that someone achieve great results in BG2 using those builds you say "powerful", if he knows nothing of the fights to come? I have my doubt on it.
With a Sorcerer? Yes, that's what I said. If I see a vampire I know I have to cast a PfMW, or kite it around while using spells. Same goes for a Planetar (The Winged, for example). If it is a Mage I pop-up my Spell Immunities and so. With a beholder a Spell Shield/invisibility depending on the mods settings. And so on. There is a solution for everything.
And I hope that some dev is reading this and find a way to create a challenging encounter.
That's why I'm really looking forward to the Black Pits II continue.
But can you say that someone achieve great results in BG2 using those builds you say "powerful", if he knows nothing of the fights to come? I have my doubt on it.
With a Sorcerer? Yes, that's what I said. If I see a vampire I know I have to cast a PfMW, or kite it around while using spells.(...)
This illustrate perfectly what is the problem with your evaluations: you cannot get past your own case. I speak you of people who doesn't know and have to make up for solutions once they face the real problem, without any fore-planning, and you and answer "I know I have..."
In the hands of someone who doesn't know, which is 90% of the player base, the Sorcerer is bound to a lot of difficulties, because of missed spell picks (what do you do when you DIDN'T pick PfMW, because you didn't know how Stoneskin will fail so badly against those vampires?), because of poorly matching buffs choices before the engagements (that's easy to say "You need to buff with Resist Magic prior the fight" when you know. A regular player will be within the Horrid Withering cloud when he suddently understand what he needs, and casting it will be a LOT more difficult then)
-You- win with a Sorcerer not because of the class, but because you know -what- counter, -when-, and -how- and come prepared for it. You'll do the same with scrolls and potions anyway, or even a fucking Blade, if you cared to try, but it is much more confortable to go with a auto-resupplying provider of those counters like the Sorcerer, if you can fore-plan the spell picks a dozen hours before you truly need them.
The Berzerker, in the other hand, doesn't requier to know everything. It comes already loaded with an ability that solves 90% of the problems, making your failure rate inferior to 10% even if you don't know a shit about what is coming next in the game. You fail a lot more with a Sorcerer if you don't know what you'll have to do before you start the encounter.
In BGI, you'll primarily be cosplaying as Drizzt. He's got the best weapons and armor, and I really only cast invisibility and identify in BGI. You can do well with magic missile against Sarevok, if you so choose.
Level 1: ** scimitar ** two weapon fighting
Level 6: ** flail (I'd buy the +2 one sold in Sorcerous Sundries in case you meet something resistant to slashing)
Note: in BGI, you'd be better off getting *** in TWF, but this way is better in the long run.
Level 12: ** hammer
Level 15: *** two weapon fighting
Level 18: * bastard sword
Your primary weapons will be the Flail of Ages and Crom Faeyr. Your best off-hand weapons are Belm (early game), Scarlet Ninja-to, and the Purifier.
I have to say I find the thread interesting. I am going to play through the game again for the first time in ~14 years, and want the character to continue on to the new expansion and BGII EE.
I never completed BGII, and what I remember from BG1 is incredibly vague. I certainly don't remember spell lists, what works as good counters and so on (I believe I was a Ranger last time I played through).
Part of me is tempted to play through as a Bard as I enjoy the character type in D&D, though they often get a short changed in games. Kensia/Mage sounds tempting but it sounds like it might require fore knowledge to pull off decently (likewise a straight Sorcerer which I also love the idea of).
I want to start BG2:EE for the first time. Ofc i have an experience in BG2 and TOB. I played it 3 times: 4 ppl NPCs party, 3ppl power-build party, and solo as F/M/T. I think i screwed the last game cause my FMT had troubles with ToB bosses
This time i want to pass the game with 2 characters (1 is boring, 3 is already a crowd) : - F/M Gnome multiclass (considering 13ber/ken -> mage dualclass too) - F/T multi or Ber/T or Ken/T duals (dont know yet which variant will be best)
Goals: - Party must be playable from first chapters of SoA, and be absurdly overpowered in ToB. - cheats/mods i will be using : remove XP cap, unlimited bags/stacks (also considering True-Gand-Mastery) - adding one NPC for first chapters is acceptable (in dual class FT variant) but not exactly wanted. For both dualclass variant its a pain that must be accepted.
Questions: - I have no idea where to spend the stars, especially when i choose dualclass variant for 2nd character, cause picking granmastery makes me to choose one weapon type from start. - What is ur suggestion for weapons and gear for both of them? My tought is Flail of Ages + Crom/speed weapon for F/M. Completely no ideas for F/T - Will lack of kleric be problem if there is only one amulet of power in game? Are there any other items to prevent negative energy / levels drain? Or i should just keep on scrolls and potions? - Maybe i should make 1st character 13ken/ber - Mage dualclass aswell? I get more hp, lower thaco, and i loose fighters HLA. Also early game is more frustrating. Is it worth or not? - *NOOBy Question* Really there is NO BENEFIT AT ALL from increasing thief skills above 100points (except hide and move silently)?
@franio I would choose a multiclass Fighter/Illusionist and a multiclass Fighter/Thief above dual-class options as you want to use characters right from the first chapters of SoA.
You'll have plenty of options where to spend your proficiencies - no need to concentrate on one weapon.
For a Fighter/Thief I'd take staff, two-handed weapons, two-handed swords, halberds
For a Figter/Illusionist I'd take flails, two-weapon fighting, scimitars and longswords
A lack of a cleric can be counteracted with items, but there's only one amulet of power. So your Figter/Illusionist can tank vampires while your Fighter/Thief backstabs them and run away, to go invisible again and return for the next backstab.
There's no benefit for increasing thieving skills above 100, yes, except for HiS and MS and Pickpocketing (but you have potions for increasing you PP skill).
Of course, in vanilla version if you not install mod with XP cap removed, you can't reach some high level spell (level 9 i suppose and no HLA i think), but what i want to know if with SoD, xp cap has been increased or not. If not, i think i continue to use xp cap removal xD.
I didn't read after the topic devolved into an argument over what experienced players know vs. what is strong for a new player. This is not irrelevant, but not what was asked in the OP.
The answer is absolutely, bar none, in no other terms, a Sorcerer. Sorcs are stupid OP due to the iffy way they were implemented into BG2's 2nd Ed ruleset. They require no ability scores to do anything (unless you count casting from scrolls) and are not penalized for having low scores. Since magic does everything for them physical ability scores cease to matter like STR, DEX, CON and are only for the sake of convenience for giving you slightly better performance when you CHOOSE to melee, used ranged or get hit (and believe me, it's your choice).
In any scenario (party or solo) a Sorcerer cannot be stopped except in the anti-magic rooms in Watcher's Keep (which you can just run through, using items to kill the Baatezu that you HAVE to kill). Sorcs can cast their entire spell book minus level 7 for free up to 6 times by abusing Project Image, Wish to be restored as if rested, and do it all over again. In battle, if they so choose. Nothing can stand up to your onslaught of infinite spells, and physical combat is never really going to be needed except when soloing BG1. In BG1 or BG2 you have the option of a party, and if you solo BG2 you'll quickly level to a level where you can get decent summons. Resting between every fight in the early stages is always on the table too, so it's not like your spells are going to be exhausted that easily.
Surely a Mage that can cast lvl 9 spells is comparable, or better, no? Not really. Even the original, nerfed tables that vanilla BG2 uses the sorc cast as a specialist wizard with no school restrictions, 6 castings per level (unnerfed tables they get 9 per level; 8 lvl 9 casting by the level cap at 31!). A multiclassed or normal Mage only gets 5. A specialist Mage can also get 6 slots a level, but at the cost of a school (arguably Divination loss as a Conjurerer isn't bad, until you try to solo one and can't dispel Mislead off nasty things like Liches!) This is only half the argument though. A sorcerer can cast ANY COMBINATION of their spells on that level up 6 times, on the fly, with no prep. This kind of reactionary capability far outweighs the Mage's preparatory flexibility, as while Mage could handle any situation too, they could not cast these chosen spells more times than they prepped even if they needed to.
The ultimate conclusion is that the sorceror, *with proper spell picks*, is the strongest Mage in the game due to the "mana-like" way they cast their spells instead of prepping. And since magic is so stupidly powerful in the game (and D&D in general), that makes them by far the best character choice in the right hands. Even if you knew exactly what you'd need for every encounter in the game with a Mage, the Sorc's ability to react to the battle as need be and change plans on the fly puts them above, not just the "any combination of spell casting per level" thing.. With a Mage if your battle plan doesn't work and you don't have enough fallback planned into your spell prep well...you're boned :P Power Word: Reload and try again.
Multiclasses and duals are admirable. Indeed, most duals and every multi except the triples can reach the unmodded caster level cap (20) and cast lvl 9 spells. But they will always have less overall castings, and more strain will be placed on their ability distributions depending on their classes than a Sorc. A sorcerer is easy mode: go 18 INT, 18 WIS so you can abuse Wish when you gain access to it and ignore the rest. Pick the same spells that are commonly used for a mage and cast them more often, etc. The biggest proponent of Multiclasses that makes them seem "better" is that they can fight if need, but this sidesteps the issue that once magic is powerful, it is ALL POWERFUL and you never even need to fight again if you understand the magic system. So the strongest magic users become the undisputed best characters at that point...cue Sorcerer.
just a few other things: -Kensai/mage dualled at 21/22 is patently better than 13/28. Low duals are MUCH more suited to a Berserker instead. The extra mage slots aren't as important when you have to prep them, you'll be able to cast lvl 9 and without Spell50, you hit the caster cap too (lvl 20). We aren't arguing experience amounts/ in-game viability here, it's about pure strength. And for a solo that's irrelevant anyway, if you were playing that way. If you want to argue in-game viability, the point is moot already because not only is EVERYTHING viable in-game because of the items provided (lvl 1/1/1 F/M/T games have been done), the game also provides a veritable rogue's gallery of passable excuse characters that can easily function in a party setting to cover everything the game throws at you.
-If Grandmastery isn't "fixed" back to BG1/PnP (I don't know what changes are in EE), mutliclass Fighters/other warrior classes are better than duals because of their massive amount of HLAs. Kensai duals are roughly equivalent with nerfed GM, and still powerful enough to merit using. I never understood why Bioware took away the 2nd Ed Fighter's only real advantage over the other warrior classes...Rangers and Pallys cast MAGIC for pete's sake, and they all get the same HLAs! More levels doesn't offset MAGIC after THAC0 tables max anyway. You get a whopping +1 hit, +2 damage and some speed factor but no attacks over Specialization with nerfed Grandmastery, and up to 21 HLAS instead of 17. Whoo...
-Berserker/Mage and Berserker/Cleric are fantastic choices for low duals (13 or 9). The combo of Berserk immunities and magic makes them nearly unkillable, easier to use than pure caster because they can just beat things into submission while being immune. B/Cs will still be able to GM two weapons and max their THACO at 0 even without spells! Much better with fixed GM. Not the best (Kensai/anything is better than Berserker/anything with fixed GM) but very user friendly and powerful.
-If we're talking what's the most powerful newbie friendly class, Cleric/Ranger Multi is pretty much the best example. It gets EVERY priest spell, fights and tanks well, can super-buff itself in ways that a K/M wishes it could, has access to stealth for scouting/hit and fades/dicking over magic users, and eventually gets tons of HLAs. Even soloing, you can hit for max damage at 25 STR for long time while having 65% resistance to all physical damage that manage to get past your maxed (-24) AC and Ironskins, be immune to all elemental damage except acid, and then still use GWW or Critical Strike on top of that at Fighter THAC0. Oh yeah and you can summon with the best of them, interrupt casters en masse with Insect Plague even if they're invisible by casting it on self, heal yourself fully in one spell, remove any status effect, and become immune to targeted magic including imprisonment for at least 2 castings With Shield of the Archons (Spell Trap lite). You even get Nature's Beauty, which can PERMANENTLY blind dangerous enemies like Demi-Liches with no save. I never tried that on Demogorgon but as I assume he has a Heal script (hell, most dragons do) it doesn't seem like it would stick anyway.
-Probably the only thing that rivals Sorcerer in overall power is Cleric/Mage. Specifically, Gnome Cleric/Illusionist. The massive flexibility of the class and sheer number of spells it has through access to an entire other class' casting ability. Gnome gives you bonus saves, extra specialist mage slot per level, and higher INT (more spells and better learning %, if you didn't fix that garbage with a tweak pack already) at the cost of one bonus priest spell (17 WIS max) and Skull Trap, Spirit Armor, and Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting. You can still cast Animate Dead and Finger of Death from your Cleric side, there's Barkskin and Defensive Harmony for Spirit Armor (if you care about AC at all) so the only real loss is some direct damage from ST and ADHW, which sucks, but is an easy trade for all the buffing potential and extra mage slots.
Agreed, let's hear your sorcerer spell picks. I'm thinking about playing the EE's for the first time, and I figure it'll be as a sorc (though not solo).
I might've tried for a fun wild mage, but they nerfed its exploitables quite a bit, I read lol. Sorc was always better anyway, though.
I played the first game a ton, but I've only ever gone through the whole series contiguously as a fighter/illusionist; by the end of the game, though I could melee like a god or w/e, it was obvious to me that arcane spellcasting is way more powerful, and more elaborate, than any other character path. It's kind of a shame, really, that everything else is so bare and boring.
Start at BG1 in Legacy of Bhaal mode and you'll find that your Totemic Druid and his Spirit Bear are much, much stronger than any sorcerer. Start in ToB and the situation reverses.
Play a no-reload run and saving throws and immunities become more important than almost anything. Your dwarven Fighter/Thief will shrug off a lot of spells that prove fatal to your Blade. But if you're playing a speedrun, the Blade is just plain faster.
Your monk can absorb 20 Horrid Wilting spells. But it doesn't have the saving throws to resist Demon Fear, Psionic Blast, or Psionic Maze, which all bypass magic resistance.
Play a restless run, and spellcasters are nearly useless compared to fighters and thieves.
Play with SCS, and Inquisitors and druids suddenly get far weaker than they normally would be.
Play Improved Anvil, and Vagrants, Riskbreakers, and good-aligned Necromancers outclass almost everything, because the mod was designed that way.
Play without pausing, and thieves and spellcasters can barely function.
Play with Spell Revisions, and a sorcerer's limited spell picks make them weaker than normal mages, as the best spells are weakened and other spells are strengthened.
Play with Scales of Balance or Faith and Powers or Item Revisions or Rogue Rebalancing or any number of other mods, and everything changes.
Ultimately, the best strategy depends on which game you're playing.
I must say, regardless of mod combination(s), be it SCS-SR-IR-Anvil or whatever, there is one single class I cannot play the game w/o - Sorcerer. All others fall behind it. Is it the *best build* I don't know - but it's the most flexible character you can get.
I must say, regardless of mod combination(s), be it SCS-SR-IR-Anvil or whatever, there is one single class I cannot play the game w/o - Sorcerer. All others fall behind it. Is it the *best build* I don't know - but it's the most flexible character you can get.
This just proves everyone is different. I used sorcs in the past but now I can't stand them anymore, regardless of mod list - amusingly because they are way too inflexible for my tastes.
There are 2 schools of thinking when talking about the "best" character. The first extreme thinks their character is the best if they can adapt and come with the best tactic for each situation. The second extreme thinks their character is the best if he doesn't need to adapt and can use a single tactic that works for all situations.
The first requires of course meta gaming knowledge and careful planning. The second makes the game trivial and requires no thinking. Of course these are the extremes and all builds require a little bit of both. Casters are closer to the first extreme, while fighters are closer to the second.
We know many classes/combos can solo the game with less or more micromanagement or meta gaming knowledge, but it would be interesting which builds are considered the closest to the 2 extremes, considering the entire journey, not only the end game...
Why would a sorc be better than a M/C? At least on LoB the M/C is stronger because of the insane saving throws of enemies. Only a M/C has Doom-Malison-Chant and can for example turn Belhifet into a squirrel. (Big B has -1 saves vs wand on LoB and goes Imp Invis) Ofc if you play on Insane this might not make an impact, since you can just AC tank enemies and kill them whichever way you please. Also LoB makes stuff like Sleep and Turn Undead almost irrelevant because of higher enemy HD.
If you disable the XP-Cap you just plain cheat yourself of any challenge and get HLAs in SoD. Any char wrecks the game free and if you also disable level cap F/M/C and F/M/T just straight outperform sorc by miles.
Sorc do have an edge over fmt, they don't need to pick each spell, so if they find they need 4 PFMWs, they can do that, while a fmt is stuck with what he thought he'd need. Also, they'll hit higher level spells MUCH sooner, even with the cap removed.
I think Sorc isn't strictly worse than a fmt or fmc.
Comments
Your problem is the same that any "expert" on any game: you disregard any ability that is useful for regular players, like, here, all tools that can compensate for a lack of foresight.
You know the game so much that you do not "need" anything to save you from ambushes, pitfalls, uncommon spells... you know where they are, and you are prepared for it.
For someone who knows everything, a mage is probably an extremly powerful character. Because he has a lot of tools. So with proper knowledge, you feel you can do everything better with it.
But really, understand this: the game is not meant to be played by someone that knows it by heart. So the needs for a "powerfull" character can change with a regular player.
Passive abilities can save a regular player from reloading where spells will not. And it doesn't prevent him to beat the game at all neverless.
You disregard them because who you are, failing to take the whole playerbase into account.
Thus, you're not wrong at all, but your evaluation only fits people like you. People who beat the game several times already
On my first (and on Insane + SCS installed) run through Black Pits II with a solo Sorcerer I reloaded just once due to a multiplayer bug.
Are they easy fights? Not particularly.
Did I know what I was gonna fight? Not at all.
Did I had top gear equipment? Not till the very end.
I'm pretty sure tho, that with an end-game Sorcerer I can deal with any encounter.
Unless we talk about mods that completely change spells behaviours or have scripts specifically designed against spellcasters (which I've never found so far). I'm positive that a solo 100% MR Berserker won't make it in a no-reload even before the end of SoA with just SCS installed, EVEN metagaming. With a Sorcerer is fairly doable tho', and it is also because:
- it can deal Fire, Cold, Magic, Acid, Poison and Electric damage bypassing MR.
- can render itself immune to every physical, elemental and magical damage with literally a couple of spells.
- has the highest damage/round with an infinite loop of Alacrity/Time Stop/deplete spells/Wish.
- has the best 360° defense and is able to tank everything in the game potentially forever.
- has the strongest summons.
- if you're not against the use of exploit he becomes a completely broken God (the fixes of the 2.0 berely scratched the surface)
- it is a single class, which means that it levels-up relatively fast.
- has the largest amount of crowd-control, aoe damage-dealing and debuff spells.
I could go on...
If you add this to game/class knowledge and good strategies you have the answer to this thread. You are definitely right here, I'm not sure I understand:
why would someone not "expert" puzzle himself about the "best possible character build"?
I thought it was a topic for people with a certain knowledge about the game mechanics.
In my eyes, if it takes an expert to achieve great results with a build, this is not the build which is powerful, but the player.
A powerful build is powerful no matter who plays it. But can you say that someone achieve great results in BG2 using those builds you say "powerful", if he knows nothing of the fights to come?
I have my doubt on it.
If I see a vampire I know I have to cast a PfMW, or kite it around while using spells. Same goes for a Planetar (The Winged, for example). If it is a Mage I pop-up my Spell Immunities and so. With a beholder a Spell Shield/invisibility depending on the mods settings. And so on.
There is a solution for everything.
And I hope that some dev is reading this and find a way to create a challenging encounter.
That's why I'm really looking forward to the Black Pits II continue.
I speak you of people who doesn't know and have to make up for solutions once they face the real problem, without any fore-planning, and you and answer "I know I have..."
In the hands of someone who doesn't know, which is 90% of the player base, the Sorcerer is bound to a lot of difficulties, because of missed spell picks (what do you do when you DIDN'T pick PfMW, because you didn't know how Stoneskin will fail so badly against those vampires?), because of poorly matching buffs choices before the engagements (that's easy to say "You need to buff with Resist Magic prior the fight" when you know. A regular player will be within the Horrid Withering cloud when he suddently understand what he needs, and casting it will be a LOT more difficult then)
-You- win with a Sorcerer not because of the class, but because you know -what- counter, -when-, and -how- and come prepared for it. You'll do the same with scrolls and potions anyway, or even a fucking Blade, if you cared to try, but it is much more confortable to go with a auto-resupplying provider of those counters like the Sorcerer, if you can fore-plan the spell picks a dozen hours before you truly need them.
The Berzerker, in the other hand, doesn't requier to know everything. It comes already loaded with an ability that solves 90% of the problems, making your failure rate inferior to 10% even if you don't know a shit about what is coming next in the game. You fail a lot more with a Sorcerer if you don't know what you'll have to do before you start the encounter.
That discussion doesn't seems to progress much...
In BGI, you'll primarily be cosplaying as Drizzt. He's got the best weapons and armor, and I really only cast invisibility and identify in BGI. You can do well with magic missile against Sarevok, if you so choose.
Level 1:
** scimitar
** two weapon fighting
Level 6:
** flail (I'd buy the +2 one sold in Sorcerous Sundries in case you meet something resistant to slashing)
Note: in BGI, you'd be better off getting *** in TWF, but this way is better in the long run.
Level 12:
** hammer
Level 15:
*** two weapon fighting
Level 18:
* bastard sword
Your primary weapons will be the Flail of Ages and Crom Faeyr. Your best off-hand weapons are Belm (early game), Scarlet Ninja-to, and the Purifier.
I never completed BGII, and what I remember from BG1 is incredibly vague. I certainly don't remember spell lists, what works as good counters and so on (I believe I was a Ranger last time I played through).
Part of me is tempted to play through as a Bard as I enjoy the character type in D&D, though they often get a short changed in games. Kensia/Mage sounds tempting but it sounds like it might require fore knowledge to pull off decently (likewise a straight Sorcerer which I also love the idea of).
This time i want to pass the game with 2 characters (1 is boring, 3 is already a crowd) :
- F/M Gnome multiclass (considering 13ber/ken -> mage dualclass too)
- F/T multi or Ber/T or Ken/T duals (dont know yet which variant will be best)
Goals:
- Party must be playable from first chapters of SoA, and be absurdly overpowered in ToB.
- cheats/mods i will be using : remove XP cap, unlimited bags/stacks (also considering True-Gand-Mastery)
- adding one NPC for first chapters is acceptable (in dual class FT variant) but not exactly wanted. For both dualclass variant its a pain that must be accepted.
Questions:
- I have no idea where to spend the stars, especially when i choose dualclass variant for 2nd character, cause picking granmastery makes me to choose one weapon type from start.
- What is ur suggestion for weapons and gear for both of them? My tought is Flail of Ages + Crom/speed weapon for F/M. Completely no ideas for F/T
- Will lack of kleric be problem if there is only one amulet of power in game? Are there any other items to prevent negative energy / levels drain? Or i should just keep on scrolls and potions?
- Maybe i should make 1st character 13ken/ber - Mage dualclass aswell? I get more hp, lower thaco, and i loose fighters HLA. Also early game is more frustrating. Is it worth or not?
- *NOOBy Question* Really there is NO BENEFIT AT ALL from increasing thief skills above 100points (except hide and move silently)?
Looking for ur suggestions.
You'll have plenty of options where to spend your proficiencies - no need to concentrate on one weapon.
For a Fighter/Thief I'd take staff, two-handed weapons, two-handed swords, halberds
For a Figter/Illusionist I'd take flails, two-weapon fighting, scimitars and longswords
A lack of a cleric can be counteracted with items, but there's only one amulet of power. So your Figter/Illusionist can tank vampires while your Fighter/Thief backstabs them and run away, to go invisible again and return for the next backstab.
There's no benefit for increasing thieving skills above 100, yes, except for HiS and MS and Pickpocketing (but you have potions for increasing you PP skill).
FMT & FMC
The answer is absolutely, bar none, in no other terms, a Sorcerer. Sorcs are stupid OP due to the iffy way they were implemented into BG2's 2nd Ed ruleset. They require no ability scores to do anything (unless you count casting from scrolls) and are not penalized for having low scores. Since magic does everything for them physical ability scores cease to matter like STR, DEX, CON and are only for the sake of convenience for giving you slightly better performance when you CHOOSE to melee, used ranged or get hit (and believe me, it's your choice).
In any scenario (party or solo) a Sorcerer cannot be stopped except in the anti-magic rooms in Watcher's Keep (which you can just run through, using items to kill the Baatezu that you HAVE to kill). Sorcs can cast their entire spell book minus level 7 for free up to 6 times by abusing Project Image, Wish to be restored as if rested, and do it all over again. In battle, if they so choose. Nothing can stand up to your onslaught of infinite spells, and physical combat is never really going to be needed except when soloing BG1. In BG1 or BG2 you have the option of a party, and if you solo BG2 you'll quickly level to a level where you can get decent summons. Resting between every fight in the early stages is always on the table too, so it's not like your spells are going to be exhausted that easily.
Surely a Mage that can cast lvl 9 spells is comparable, or better, no? Not really. Even the original, nerfed tables that vanilla BG2 uses the sorc cast as a specialist wizard with no school restrictions, 6 castings per level (unnerfed tables they get 9 per level; 8 lvl 9 casting by the level cap at 31!). A multiclassed or normal Mage only gets 5. A specialist Mage can also get 6 slots a level, but at the cost of a school (arguably Divination loss as a Conjurerer isn't bad, until you try to solo one and can't dispel Mislead off nasty things like Liches!) This is only half the argument though. A sorcerer can cast ANY COMBINATION of their spells on that level up 6 times, on the fly, with no prep. This kind of reactionary capability far outweighs the Mage's preparatory flexibility, as while Mage could handle any situation too, they could not cast these chosen spells more times than they prepped even if they needed to.
The ultimate conclusion is that the sorceror, *with proper spell picks*, is the strongest Mage in the game due to the "mana-like" way they cast their spells instead of prepping. And since magic is so stupidly powerful in the game (and D&D in general), that makes them by far the best character choice in the right hands. Even if you knew exactly what you'd need for every encounter in the game with a Mage, the Sorc's ability to react to the battle as need be and change plans on the fly puts them above, not just the "any combination of spell casting per level" thing.. With a Mage if your battle plan doesn't work and you don't have enough fallback planned into your spell prep well...you're boned :P Power Word: Reload and try again.
Multiclasses and duals are admirable. Indeed, most duals and every multi except the triples can reach the unmodded caster level cap (20) and cast lvl 9 spells. But they will always have less overall castings, and more strain will be placed on their ability distributions depending on their classes than a Sorc. A sorcerer is easy mode: go 18 INT, 18 WIS so you can abuse Wish when you gain access to it and ignore the rest. Pick the same spells that are commonly used for a mage and cast them more often, etc. The biggest proponent of Multiclasses that makes them seem "better" is that they can fight if need, but this sidesteps the issue that once magic is powerful, it is ALL POWERFUL and you never even need to fight again if you understand the magic system. So the strongest magic users become the undisputed best characters at that point...cue Sorcerer.
just a few other things:
-Kensai/mage dualled at 21/22 is patently better than 13/28. Low duals are MUCH more suited to a Berserker instead. The extra mage slots aren't as important when you have to prep them, you'll be able to cast lvl 9 and without Spell50, you hit the caster cap too (lvl 20). We aren't arguing experience amounts/ in-game viability here, it's about pure strength. And for a solo that's irrelevant anyway, if you were playing that way. If you want to argue in-game viability, the point is moot already because not only is EVERYTHING viable in-game because of the items provided (lvl 1/1/1 F/M/T games have been done), the game also provides a veritable rogue's gallery of passable excuse characters that can easily function in a party setting to cover everything the game throws at you.
-If Grandmastery isn't "fixed" back to BG1/PnP (I don't know what changes are in EE), mutliclass Fighters/other warrior classes are better than duals because of their massive amount of HLAs. Kensai duals are roughly equivalent with nerfed GM, and still powerful enough to merit using. I never understood why Bioware took away the 2nd Ed Fighter's only real advantage over the other warrior classes...Rangers and Pallys cast MAGIC for pete's sake, and they all get the same HLAs! More levels doesn't offset MAGIC after THAC0 tables max anyway. You get a whopping +1 hit, +2 damage and some speed factor but no attacks over Specialization with nerfed Grandmastery, and up to 21 HLAS instead of 17. Whoo...
-Berserker/Mage and Berserker/Cleric are fantastic choices for low duals (13 or 9). The combo of Berserk immunities and magic makes them nearly unkillable, easier to use than pure caster because they can just beat things into submission while being immune. B/Cs will still be able to GM two weapons and max their THACO at 0 even without spells! Much better with fixed GM. Not the best (Kensai/anything is better than Berserker/anything with fixed GM) but very user friendly and powerful.
-If we're talking what's the most powerful newbie friendly class, Cleric/Ranger Multi is pretty much the best example. It gets EVERY priest spell, fights and tanks well, can super-buff itself in ways that a K/M wishes it could, has access to stealth for scouting/hit and fades/dicking over magic users, and eventually gets tons of HLAs. Even soloing, you can hit for max damage at 25 STR for long time while having 65% resistance to all physical damage that manage to get past your maxed (-24) AC and Ironskins, be immune to all elemental damage except acid, and then still use GWW or Critical Strike on top of that at Fighter THAC0. Oh yeah and you can summon with the best of them, interrupt casters en masse with Insect Plague even if they're invisible by casting it on self, heal yourself fully in one spell, remove any status effect, and become immune to targeted magic including imprisonment for at least 2 castings With Shield of the Archons (Spell Trap lite). You even get Nature's Beauty, which can PERMANENTLY blind dangerous enemies like Demi-Liches with no save. I never tried that on Demogorgon but as I assume he has a Heal script (hell, most dragons do) it doesn't seem like it would stick anyway.
-Probably the only thing that rivals Sorcerer in overall power is Cleric/Mage. Specifically, Gnome Cleric/Illusionist. The massive flexibility of the class and sheer number of spells it has through access to an entire other class' casting ability. Gnome gives you bonus saves, extra specialist mage slot per level, and higher INT (more spells and better learning %, if you didn't fix that garbage with a tweak pack already) at the cost of one bonus priest spell (17 WIS max) and Skull Trap, Spirit Armor, and Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting. You can still cast Animate Dead and Finger of Death from your Cleric side, there's Barkskin and Defensive Harmony for Spirit Armor (if you care about AC at all) so the only real loss is some direct damage from ST and ADHW, which sucks, but is an easy trade for all the buffing potential and extra mage slots.
I might've tried for a fun wild mage, but they nerfed its exploitables quite a bit, I read lol. Sorc was always better anyway, though.
I played the first game a ton, but I've only ever gone through the whole series contiguously as a fighter/illusionist; by the end of the game, though I could melee like a god or w/e, it was obvious to me that arcane spellcasting is way more powerful, and more elaborate, than any other character path. It's kind of a shame, really, that everything else is so bare and boring.
Start at BG1 in Legacy of Bhaal mode and you'll find that your Totemic Druid and his Spirit Bear are much, much stronger than any sorcerer. Start in ToB and the situation reverses.
Play a no-reload run and saving throws and immunities become more important than almost anything. Your dwarven Fighter/Thief will shrug off a lot of spells that prove fatal to your Blade. But if you're playing a speedrun, the Blade is just plain faster.
Your monk can absorb 20 Horrid Wilting spells. But it doesn't have the saving throws to resist Demon Fear, Psionic Blast, or Psionic Maze, which all bypass magic resistance.
Play a restless run, and spellcasters are nearly useless compared to fighters and thieves.
Play with SCS, and Inquisitors and druids suddenly get far weaker than they normally would be.
Play Improved Anvil, and Vagrants, Riskbreakers, and good-aligned Necromancers outclass almost everything, because the mod was designed that way.
Play without pausing, and thieves and spellcasters can barely function.
Play with Spell Revisions, and a sorcerer's limited spell picks make them weaker than normal mages, as the best spells are weakened and other spells are strengthened.
Play with Scales of Balance or Faith and Powers or Item Revisions or Rogue Rebalancing or any number of other mods, and everything changes.
Ultimately, the best strategy depends on which game you're playing.
Level 50/50/50 Tarrasque Kensai/Sorcerer/Shadowdancer! With a mustache!
The first requires of course meta gaming knowledge and careful planning. The second makes the game trivial and requires no thinking. Of course these are the extremes and all builds require a little bit of both. Casters are closer to the first extreme, while fighters are closer to the second.
We know many classes/combos can solo the game with less or more micromanagement or meta gaming knowledge, but it would be interesting which builds are considered the closest to the 2 extremes, considering the entire journey, not only the end game...
At least on LoB the M/C is stronger because of the insane saving throws of enemies.
Only a M/C has Doom-Malison-Chant and can for example turn Belhifet into a squirrel. (Big B has -1 saves vs wand on LoB and goes Imp Invis)
Ofc if you play on Insane this might not make an impact, since you can just AC tank enemies and kill them whichever way you please.
Also LoB makes stuff like Sleep and Turn Undead almost irrelevant because of higher enemy HD.
If you disable the XP-Cap you just plain cheat yourself of any challenge and get HLAs in SoD.
Any char wrecks the game free and if you also disable level cap F/M/C and F/M/T just straight outperform sorc by miles.
I think Sorc isn't strictly worse than a fmt or fmc.