@Gotural Hey man, i didn't know this thread but i used to post in the no reload threads on the old bioware forum. Learned a lot about the game there, especially Alesia and a couple of other users provided great insight. They showed things i didn't even think were possible.
You made me curious about F/M/T, i never played any thief other than Jan in chapters 2/3, followed by Imoen, so i never really got access to thief HLA's, i read that spike traps are insane though. Do they work on every single boss in the game? Also, how many thief HLA's do you get on average with a 6 man party by the end of the game with this triple class? And is there any major boss in ToB that can be backstabbed?
Alesia is well known even on this forum, he posts sometimes in the no-reload thread I linked above. I never looked the old Bioware forum as I started to play no-reload with the EE, but I know that @Blackraven posts in both forums. It's always a great source of information.
With a vanilla setup (or with SCS) the F/M/T will get his HLAs at 3,000,000 total XP like other characters, with access to the Fighter and Thief pools. At the end of ToB he should have something like 7M XP I guess if you didn't take the EE NPCs but did every quests, which translates into 17 HLAs (6 from Fighter, 7 from Thief and 4 from Mage), enough to have 7 Spike Traps or 7 Time Traps (7 is the maximum amount of traps you can set in a area unmodded as far as I know), at least one Greater Evasion (which is really good because it is undispellable), UAI and a bunch of other abilities.
A Spike Trap deals 20d6 pure magical damage without a save or magic resistance, and pure magic damage resistance is very rare (it's the same kind of damage than Magic Missile or ADHW) so on average it pretty much deals 70 damage to a single opponent. Place 3 of them and you already did 210 damage to someone!
But my favorites are the Time Traps, because you can stack them in the same place and they will all trigger one at a time, so if you put 7 Time Traps somewhere and an enemy walk there, you will gain a 70 seconds Time Stop, which is enough to kill anything. Plus when time is stopped, the duration of buffs will continue to decrease so if an enemy starts with a PfMW prebuff or Contingency and walks in your traps, just wait 24 seconds, then instakill him with Mislead + Backstabs.
Nothing can survive the 70 secs Time Stop (it is the equivalent of 11 rounds and a few more seconds) except those immune to Time Stop a.k.a The Ravager, Demogorgon, Balthazar and Amelyssan.
Interesting, very interesting. I did some tests now and noticed that you can also select any HLA when you level up, irregardless of the class you leveled up with at that moment, very convenient, so you can basically get a truckload of traps. A couple of final questions, what is your backstab weapon of choice? I'm assuming staves? And how many skill points do you place in set traps, is around 150 enough?
100 Set Traps is enough for setting snares without failure. Only if you intend to have Simulacra set snares, will it make sense to go beyond 100. I think you'd have to go up to circa 130.
As to the best backstabbing weapon, I think Staff is the best weapon indeed. Martial Staff in BG1, Staff of Rynn and Staves of Power in Soa, Staff of the Ram in late SoA, ToB.
Most Thief skills are percentage based, so 100 is enough to get 100% success rate with Set Traps but also with Detect Illusions, Find Traps, Pick Locks. The exceptions are Hide in Shadows / Move Silently which can go up to 200 because your score is halved while in the sunlight and Pickpocket because it is an opposed test with the merchant.
For backstabbing, Staves are the best weapon but I don't use them because you can do just fine with most one handed weapons (100+ damage) and also use them to dualwield. So I usually use whatever Scimitar, Long Sword, Katana I have in my main hand.
@Klorox There are so many good weapons that I'm not going to list them but for the rest of your equipment I think:
Boots of Speed Robe of Vecna / Aslyferund Elven chain mail +5 (If someone else in the party can use the Robe of Vecna) Helm of the Balduran / Circlet of Netheril (if no one else can use it) Cloak of Mirroring Belt of Inertial Barrier Ring of Gaxx Ring of Protection +3 Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization / Wondrous Gloves (really great for F/M/T too) Amulet of the Master Harper (great item which gives +3 AC only usable by Bards and Thieves)
I agree with Gotural, it really is a bit subjective and it matters if you solo or who is in your party. I think Gotural listed all of the main gear. I will add that it may be better to use Montollos Cloak instead of the cloak of mirroring if you are dual wielding and you are interested in pushing your APR, thaco, and damage to the max. Depending on how you play and who is with you, you may find the cloak of mirroring more beneficial for one of your other characters or vice versa. For example, Minsc could use montollo's cloak if he is dual wielding.
I really enjoyed using Carsomyr as a FMT because of it's ability to break enemy protections and also protect you from damage while allowing you to seamlessly utilize a crossbow. It's always nice to play a class that can use Carsomyr.
For Dual wielding you have a bunch of options. Some do more damage and some have more passive abilities. All of the end game TOB+5 one handers are solid choices. I like spectral brand for backstabs but you can get a +1 to hit and damage with angurvadal if you are a pure class elf. Foebane does good damage and heals you. The axe of unyielding adds armor and a vorprol hit. I really like Crom Fayer for the 25 strength bonus, auto golem kills and electrical damage that will go through stoneskins and of course speed weapons are always grand. I would keep an eye out for the Scarlet Ninjato if you are planning on using a speed weapon since it is the highest enchantment speed weapon(+3) and it does poison damage that stacks.
I would plot your proficiency points out before you start the game. You only have 10 so you need to make sure your have the weapons you want covered before hand. This can get a bit tricky because end game weapons are only for the endgame so you need to think of weapons that will work throughout the game and also have good end game options. Using Carsomyr (two handed swords) is much easier than dual wielding in this regard.
I love the Ravager but it might be better suited for Serevok if you plan on taking him and you plan to use Carsomyr. If that is the case you could replace the halberd with Katana since Celestial fury has two handed sword base damage and doubles as a backstab weapon with the fantastic stun ability. Celestial Fury is available at a time when you don't have UAI yet for Carsomyr. Also, you may find staffs to be the best backstab weapons thanks to staff of the RAM but sometimes they are better utilized by other party members as well. Jahiera for example, could use the staff of the ram to great effect. These are just idea's off the top of my head based on what I have done in the past. I know from experience that switching out Carsomyr for the Staff of the Ram can get annoying which you will have to do no matter what weapon you choose to backstab with if you intend to keep your crossbow equipped. I wouldn't hog all the best weapons onto one character unless you plan to solo because it will weaken your party and you don't want to waste proficiency points on weapons that other party members would be better off using. Of course these are just min/max ideas, you should really just follow your own interests and have fun. I think you have a pretty good idea of the main options at this point.
Two Handed Swords are indeed very useful for a F/M/T because of Carsomyr, but one could also pick them early on in BG1 for the Spider's Bane as you will be able to cast a few Web spells as a F/M/T, great synergy.
Yeah those are the best for each game. If you don't want to go straight to watchers keep at the start of SOA you could purchase the giant hair crossbow at the adventurers mart as a powerful alternative until you go to WK for firetooth.
Yeah those are the best for each game. If you don't want to go straight to watchers keep at the start of SOA you could purchase the giant hair crossbow at the adventurers mart as a powerful alternative until you go to WK for firetooth.
I usually snag a crossbow of speed until I can get the Firetooth.
I think the crossbow of speed might be better than the Firetooth. Bolts of lightning from a crossbow of speed will do about as much damage as the Firetooth bolts, plus an additional attack per round.
I agree whith Klorox's FMT proficiences, but maybe I'll choose short bow instead xbow for +1APR. and maybe spear instead halbard for Impaler and Ixil. Or a single hand weapon as shield can be useful. Depends on what the rest of the party need. The basic is 2Hsword and staff, good weapons in every stage of the game, slashing and crushing damage, two handed weapon style shared, best backstabbing weapons.
Or DW FMT with belm and later SNT OH. And he is a completely different beast, more APR but less synergic imo. But usually my FMT are 2Handers.
I Agree about how important is the power in all the game and not only in the end. I double agree about how defence is important, an high APR high DPS beast that can slaughter every enemy before he get killed can also die for some crits chained, and reveal his limits when enemy HP is raised. Don't matter if he can win the battle 95% of times in 1 round less. The real winner, the one that has the true power, is the one that can go no reload. He has 100 power, the other only 95. Then we can debate about which of the 100% chance of survive classes is the most powerfull.
I want to expand a little my opinion about defence vs offence in evalutating the power of a build.
let's start with a pure class Kensai on a core rules vanilla. high DPS and very good HP, he can kill every thing in the game in no time and the oppositors can barely scrach him, not because he is hard to hit, no armour, no braciers, no helmet, no shield, they just have not enough time to do it. Seems one of the most powerful classes, but he really is? Go insane, enemies do double damage and he will have a lot less HP, since true insane is also when levelling up, if you slide down levelling is "milded insane". He is still powerful if the party babysit him well, drawing enemy attention on protected or better AC toons. But a part of his power is lost. Now add some mods that make the enemies better protected so he can not unleash his high DPS immediately but have to wait that PFMW is dispelled or some part of it is wasted because they are damage resisant, enemies that can cast on him Dragon Breath, ADHW or 3x Firearrow in a sequencer. Now he can still deliver some good DPS, but even in a well played party his weakness is much more evident. Factor in HOF mode, or how it is called, and then is a problem to keep him alive. And he still have the same DPS then in core vanilla. Pure class Kensai is the best example that I can think about to show how deceptive is to favor offensive power over defence in evalutating the power of a build.
About the power of an arcane caster/something other the point is not that he can IH himself, as in a party others can do it. F/M/T or F/M is so powerful because he can protect himself in a way that no other member of the party can give to him. SS, PFMW, SI and on and over...... On top of Simulacrum for 20APR, TS, 3xADHW in CC and Dragon Breath (9 lev F/M only), they are only added bonuses, the real power is in his defence capability. Other builds, like Berseker/cleric have good but lesser defence capability so are inferior in power but still very pawerful. The more the defence capability decrease the more the power is only apparent, an illusion caused by a too easy environment.
And every class can beat core rules vanilla also in the hands of a player with moderate skills, but we don't assume that every class is powerful for this....... Only when the game get hard the powerful one shines.
I want to expand a little my opinion about defence vs offence in evalutating the power of a build.
let's start with a pure class Kensai on a core rules vanilla. high DPS and very good HP, he can kill every thing in the game in no time and the oppositors can barely scrach him, not because he is hard to hit, no armour, no braciers, no helmet, no shield, they just have not enough time to do it. Seems one of the most powerful classes, but he really is? Go insane, enemies do double damage and he will have a lot less HP, since true insane is also when levelling up, if you slide down levelling is "milded insane". He is still powerful if the party babysit him well, drawing enemy attention on protected or better AC toons. But a part of his power is lost. Now add some mods that make the enemies better protected so he can not unleash his high DPS immediately but have to wait that PFMW is dispelled or some part of it is wasted because they are damage resisant, enemies that can cast on him Dragon Breath, ADHW or 3x Firearrow in a sequencer. Now he can still deliver some good DPS, but even in a well played party his weakness is much more evident. Factor in HOF mode, or how it is called, and then is a problem to keep him alive. And he still have the same DPS then in core vanilla. Pure class Kensai is the best example that I can think about to show how deceptive is to favor offensive power over defence in evalutating the power of a build.
About the power of an arcane caster/something other the point is not that he can IH himself, as in a party others can do it. F/M/T or F/M is so powerful because he can protect himself in a way that no other member of the party can give to him. SS, PFMW, SI and on and over...... On top of Simulacrum for 20APR, TS, 3xADHW in CC and Dragon Breath (9 lev F/M only), they are only added bonuses, the real power is in his defence capability. Other builds, like Berseker/cleric have good but lesser defence capability so are inferior in power but still very pawerful. The more the defence capability decrease the more the power is only apparent, an illusion caused by a too easy environment.
And every class can beat core rules vanilla also in the hands of a player with moderate skills, but we don't assume that every class is powerful for this....... Only when the game get hard the powerful one shines.
I agree with almost everything you have said with one exception and that is what has caused me to argue on and on in the past. I really don't think the magical protection of a FMT or FM is needed in the vanilla game. In fact I know it is not needed even on Insane because I have beaten the game countless times with vanilla fighters and fighter kits with no problem for nearly a decade before I started using SCS.
I could cast stoneskin, mirror image, spirit armor, improved invisibility, spell immunity illusion, and spell immunity abjuration...then walk into battle and attack with a -9 thaco at 18-28 damage per hit until the enemy is dead. Or I could cast nothing and walk into battle with a -14 thaco at 23-33 damage per hit and get the same results in less time with no casting. Sure all of that magic protection would be powerful if you actually needed it but you don't. You are sacrificing 1/3 of your XP and a solid chunk of fighting skill for powerful protections that are not needed.
If you are solo then it is a different story because you have to fight everything by yourself so the fights can last longer and you don't have multiple mages to bring down the enemy defense for you. If you are playing SCS then yes the FMT and FM are king because again, the enemy has more hitpoints and more complex protections which force the fight to go on longer. In this situation the added magic protections truly matter.
On another topic...If we are not talking about the vanilla game but an SCS play though.
I usually use Carsomyr with a FT or a Paladin but I have to admit that the last time I played through as a FMT I found dual wielding Scarlet nijato and Crom Fayer to be much more powerful. The FT and the Paladin gain from Carsomyr's magical protection but a FMT does not. I find that the FMT simply cannot be hit with enemy spells and with the boots of speed, even AOE spells are of little concern. Unless you are solo I find the auto dispel ability of Carsomyr to be much less useful in SCS because you need to crack through enemy protections, they cannot be simply dispelled and your mages will have to focus on breaking enemy protections first and will most likely have the enemy naked before your FMT can run up to them and start swinging. Also the enemy will be able to make a save vs spell in order to negate Carsomyr's dispel effect all togather.
Carsomyr does 22-34 damage a hit, 6 times a round and dual wielding Scarlet and CF does 23-35 damage a hit 10 times a round. You also have a +2 thaco because of the strength bonus from CF and you don't need to waste two HLA's on WW and GWW to get 10 APR. Also you can use critical strike with your natural 10 APR against enemies to do double damage 10 times a round while someone with Carsomyr will have to either use GWW for 10 attacks or Critical Strike for 6 attacks. Carsomyr cannot do both at the same time. This can make a massive damage difference to enemies who do not have helmets. With dual wielding long range attacks are annoying which is a negative but it does make backstabbing much more natural and easy. CF will insta kill golems and it's electrical damage will disrupt casting through stoneskins. Also scarlet's poison will continue to damage and disrupt casting for two rounds and it stacks.
Pros and cons. My first run through with a FMT was with Carsomyr and I think it's great and much easier to plot your proficiency points with. It also allows seamless use of a crossbow but if you use the crossbow regularly then is a bit annoying if you want to backstab. Dual wielding can do nearly double the damage per round and the FMT is plenty equipped with magical defense and the ability to bring down enemy protections if the other mages in your party fail for whatever reason. Again I should point out that this is with SCS. In the vanilla game I find Carsomyr to be best because you can simply run up to an enemy and start swinging and the enemy protections will go down in a flash. This not only makes the game easier on the player but In this case your extra mages could use their rounds to stun and damage the enemy instead of bringing down protections.
In the vanilla game I would go with a FT and Carsomyr. Not a pure fighter because I believe the ability to instantly destroy the most powerful enemy caster with a backstab before a fight starts to be very powerful. I also believe the thief HLA's are very powerful and make it worth the effort even in vanilla because ultimately the thief abilities are not about protection they are about more efficient damage. Timestop trap, assassination, UAI, and spike trap combined with X 5 backstab and detect illusions is worth the 1 level lower character progression and even though you give up grand mastery if you are multi instead of dual class you still gain Carsomyr so it all works out for the FT.
In SCS I would go with a FMT and dual wield scarlet and CF. This setup offsets the FMT's combat losses the best by giving you a maxed out APR to compensate for no +1 attack from the lack of grandmastery and it also gives you maxed out strength which helps compensate for damage and thaco loss from lack of grandmastery. Thanks to UAI the FMT can utilize montilo's cloak and the +3 speed weapon scarlet to give him a unique edge that can match a grand mastered fighter in everything but thaco and do it with far less pips spent. Carsomyr's passive abilities are less important for this build and it cannot compare when it comes to dual wield damage. The magic protections from the FMT make the difference in long battles with high damage dealing opponents like the ones that SCS brings to the table. It is worth the extra XP and time to pre-buff and babysit the character because SCS maxed out on insane is truly brutal. This is when the power of magical protections is finally needed and not just a time consuming "peace of mind" with negative combat consequences.
I felt like I should reiterate my standpoint on this argument with these posts since it has been over a year since I posted the bulk of my thoughts in this thread and I have had a few runs through the game with a FMT in the meantime which has given me a new perspective and ultimately changed my thought process about the FMT in some ways.
@the_sextein , I understand your point about vanilla and SCS. The magical protection of a FMT or FM is not needed in the vanilla game, so you say that has not to be relevant in evalutating the power of a class, in that challenge. I still have a different opinion becouse I think that the power of a class is inherent, not depending on the challenge. Also in vanilla if you play on easy or insane the challenge is completely different, on easy you have a lot more hp and the enemies hit for half damage, so even the bonus of having more hp for being a 2class multi and not a 3class multi or a dual FM instead of a multi FM is almost not relevant. If we factor in something not realted to the build but to the enviroment becomes almost impossible to determine wich is the most powerful build, is only possible to determine which build is the best at that specific conditions. So for me the most powerful classes reamin the ones who have the best defence capabilities and also good offensive power, as they are the ones that have most choice to survive and win in every condition you put them. Some other classes can deal more damage at certain conditions, and under those specific conditions are viable and powerful, but if under other conditions they have problem to survive are not the inherently most powerfull ones.
About the 2hander FMT vs the DW one I agree with you. and still use a 2hander FMT. Becouse in my parties I often have a Blade that can make good use of SNT and don't forge CF becouse I prefer to spread the strength enhancing items to the whole party (in my tipical party all the toons sorc excluded must have good mlee power) and I want to have the strength bonus also when ranged (there is a way to have it with all the weapon tipes, at least in notEE). But again those are party dependant factors, condition dependant. So you are right, as absolute power the DW FMT wins.
I do things like that too sometimes. I find it hard to give CF to my main character especially if I am playing a non modded game because I would rather give it to someone who doesn't already have a natural 22+ strength. Sometimes it is worth it. The last time I went through I was using Minsc on an SCS game and he struggles with TOB because he doesn't have the hitpoints or armor class to keep up. I decided to keep CF for my FMT and give him DOE and Foebane thanks to some suggestions on this forum. It allowed Minsc to have more staying power and left CF open for someone else. I tried it with my FMT and found that it fixed a lot of my issues with the FMT and combat. Switching out CF for the +4 version of FOA is also a great thing when it comes to damage especially if you are using scarlet with it. The largest benefit of CF for a FMT is that thaco is one of the largest problems with the FMT and using CF pushes your strength up from 22 to 25 which gives you a +3 thaco and +4 damage bonus to both your main and off hand. It really helps patch the problem for me. If I were interested in pure damage I think FOA would do the trick and with it's slow ability it's hard to complain. If I am using another character other than the FMT I usually don't use CF for my main character. I do assemble it but that is usually for personal satisfaction of making it and the fact that my mages are usually too busy to fight so I don't worry about them too much. I think I give imoen a belt that raises her strength to 19 just so she can carry more. My main 4 fighters all have 20+ strength.
I never had a chaname with more then 19 natural, 18 at the start of BG2, and often he has less then it as I don't play BG1 so no tome and I often play elves and don't play evil or like to optimize too much stats or overroll them. A FM or FMT with 16 or 17 STR before WK is not so uncommon in my runs. And as the strength enhancers are limited in the game I like to spread them.
I usually start Bg1 and go all the way though the trilogy. I also get the +2 strength bonus from the evil path in hell and the machine of lum the mad also gives you another strength bonus. Depending on the class of the character you can get another one from the deck of many things. As a FMT I end the game with a 22 strength.
I agree with your opinion that the power of a class is inherent but I also believe that if it serves no purpose and it causes you to sacrifice things that do serve a purpose within the rules of the game then there is no point in having that extra power and you are in fact weaker overall.
For example. If each character could only do one point of damage per a round then it wouldn't matter if you had a 25 strength with 10 attacks a round vs an 18 strength with 1 attack a round. The 25 strength character would have more inherent power but it wouldn't mean anything in the game. The guy with the better equipment and protection would win.
The same is true for the FMT regarding the protective spells. He has a way more powerful magical protection but the fight ends faster for characters that can do more damage and those characters that do more damage have no problems surviving without magical protection and winning fights faster. You change the rules of the game with SCS and those more efficient damage dealers start to have problems surviving and now those protections are worth the combat sacrifices.
I am not saying the fighter thief is the best character or that there are not exceptions. I am saying that I think the FT has the best balance of power and progression using the original rule set and playing with the cannon party using my tactics. If I were to play a game with 5 beast masters in my party maybe my opinion would change to suit that ridiculous party. There is no definitive best character or most powerful character to suit all scenarios, battles, tactics ect. I do agree that a pure class Kensai does not perform as well as a FT in the vanilla game despite his ability to do more damage because his lack of armor, helmets, and baracers cause him to not have enough protection against insane double damage enemies. More damage is not always the answer.
Balance is the key that I am looking at when I think of my most powerful character. Not too much protection and not too little, while keeping damage per round in mind. When I first started posting in here last year I had no experience with the FMT and I had never pushed SCS to the absolute hardest settings. My mindset was more focused on pure damage because I could see the clear benefit of beating enemies faster. However after thinking about it some more and taking suggestions from the community I have realized that there is more to the equation than just damage but I do think some inherent power is not worth the sacrifice to gain under certain circumstances and game rules.
I agree with everithing you told in the last post. And it seems that we both agree that what make one character the most powerful is condition dependant as the damaging power of the enemies and their defence capability factor in in the equation. So we have 4 variables in the equation, offence and defence for both character and enemy, two of them (the enemy's ones) have to be left undeterminated if we want to find out the power of a class without setting conditions (IE unmodded vanilla or SCS).
The big mainframe crunck the equation's data for hours and then on the little screen appear "SOLUTION IMPOSSIBLE-INSUFFICIENT DATA". The scientist grabs Crom Faeyr and hits the mainframe.
I am right telling that the most powerful is the one who can perform better in the hardest conditions. You are right telling that as he have to sacrifice offence to rise defence is not the best performing in milder conditions. Using a tank is not the most efficient way to drive in a city, and using a city car in a battlefield is not so wise.
Best possible character build? No answer, lack of data. Dps is all in the (BG) life? Most of us agree that is not so, and reading old posts on this board and elsewere, where only dps was factored in determining the power of a class I tink that this long topic in the end is still useful.
Comments
You made me curious about F/M/T, i never played any thief other than Jan in chapters 2/3, followed by Imoen, so i never really got access to thief HLA's, i read that spike traps are insane though. Do they work on every single boss in the game? Also, how many thief HLA's do you get on average with a 6 man party by the end of the game with this triple class? And is there any major boss in ToB that can be backstabbed?
Cheers
I never looked the old Bioware forum as I started to play no-reload with the EE, but I know that @Blackraven posts in both forums. It's always a great source of information.
With a vanilla setup (or with SCS) the F/M/T will get his HLAs at 3,000,000 total XP like other characters, with access to the Fighter and Thief pools. At the end of ToB he should have something like 7M XP I guess if you didn't take the EE NPCs but did every quests, which translates into 17 HLAs (6 from Fighter, 7 from Thief and 4 from Mage), enough to have 7 Spike Traps or 7 Time Traps (7 is the maximum amount of traps you can set in a area unmodded as far as I know), at least one Greater Evasion (which is really good because it is undispellable), UAI and a bunch of other abilities.
A Spike Trap deals 20d6 pure magical damage without a save or magic resistance, and pure magic damage resistance is very rare (it's the same kind of damage than Magic Missile or ADHW) so on average it pretty much deals 70 damage to a single opponent.
Place 3 of them and you already did 210 damage to someone!
But my favorites are the Time Traps, because you can stack them in the same place and they will all trigger one at a time, so if you put 7 Time Traps somewhere and an enemy walk there, you will gain a 70 seconds Time Stop, which is enough to kill anything. Plus when time is stopped, the duration of buffs will continue to decrease so if an enemy starts with a PfMW prebuff or Contingency and walks in your traps, just wait 24 seconds, then instakill him with Mislead + Backstabs.
Nothing can survive the 70 secs Time Stop (it is the equivalent of 11 rounds and a few more seconds) except those immune to Time Stop a.k.a The Ravager, Demogorgon, Balthazar and Amelyssan.
As to the best backstabbing weapon, I think Staff is the best weapon indeed. Martial Staff in BG1, Staff of Rynn and Staves of Power in Soa, Staff of the Ram in late SoA, ToB.
For backstabbing, Staves are the best weapon but I don't use them because you can do just fine with most one handed weapons (100+ damage) and also use them to dualwield.
So I usually use whatever Scimitar, Long Sword, Katana I have in my main hand.
@Gotural
How would you optimally equip the FMT end game?
I'm thinking of running one through BGEE->BG2EE/TOB.
There are so many good weapons that I'm not going to list them but for the rest of your equipment I think:
Boots of Speed
Robe of Vecna / Aslyferund Elven chain mail +5 (If someone else in the party can use the Robe of Vecna)
Helm of the Balduran / Circlet of Netheril (if no one else can use it)
Cloak of Mirroring
Belt of Inertial Barrier
Ring of Gaxx
Ring of Protection +3
Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization / Wondrous Gloves (really great for F/M/T too)
Amulet of the Master Harper (great item which gives +3 AC only usable by Bards and Thieves)
I really enjoyed using Carsomyr as a FMT because of it's ability to break enemy protections and also protect you from damage while allowing you to seamlessly utilize a crossbow. It's always nice to play a class that can use Carsomyr.
For Dual wielding you have a bunch of options. Some do more damage and some have more passive abilities. All of the end game TOB+5 one handers are solid choices. I like spectral brand for backstabs but you can get a +1 to hit and damage with angurvadal if you are a pure class elf. Foebane does good damage and heals you. The axe of unyielding adds armor and a vorprol hit. I really like Crom Fayer for the 25 strength bonus, auto golem kills and electrical damage that will go through stoneskins and of course speed weapons are always grand. I would keep an eye out for the Scarlet Ninjato if you are planning on using a speed weapon since it is the highest enchantment speed weapon(+3) and it does poison damage that stacks.
I would plot your proficiency points out before you start the game. You only have 10 so you need to make sure your have the weapons you want covered before hand. This can get a bit tricky because end game weapons are only for the endgame so you need to think of weapons that will work throughout the game and also have good end game options. Using Carsomyr (two handed swords) is much easier than dual wielding in this regard.
In BG1, two handed swords are great, quarterstaves are great, and pick your missile weapon (crossbow or longbow).
In BG2, Carsomyr and the Ravager are some of the best weapons in the game.
Thank you for confirming my thoughts.
As for the 10 proficiencies, I'm thinking:
** staff
** crossbow
** two handed sword
** halberd
** two handed weapon style
I don't like Sarevok much, so I'm okay there.
and maybe spear instead halbard for Impaler and Ixil. Or a single hand weapon as shield can be useful.
Depends on what the rest of the party need.
The basic is 2Hsword and staff, good weapons in every stage of the game, slashing and crushing damage, two handed weapon style shared, best backstabbing weapons.
Or DW FMT with belm and later SNT OH. And he is a completely different beast, more APR but less synergic imo.
But usually my FMT are 2Handers.
I Agree about how important is the power in all the game and not only in the end.
I double agree about how defence is important, an high APR high DPS beast that can slaughter every enemy before he get killed can also die for some crits chained, and reveal his limits when enemy HP is raised. Don't matter if he can win the battle 95% of times in 1 round less.
The real winner, the one that has the true power, is the one that can go no reload. He has 100 power, the other only 95. Then we can debate about which of the 100% chance of survive classes is the most powerfull.
let's start with a pure class Kensai on a core rules vanilla. high DPS and very good HP, he can kill every thing in the game in no time and the oppositors can barely scrach him, not because he is hard to hit, no armour, no braciers, no helmet, no shield, they just have not enough time to do it. Seems one of the most powerful classes, but he really is?
Go insane, enemies do double damage and he will have a lot less HP, since true insane is also when levelling up, if you slide down levelling is "milded insane". He is still powerful if the party babysit him well, drawing enemy attention on protected or better AC toons. But a part of his power is lost.
Now add some mods that make the enemies better protected so he can not unleash his high DPS immediately but have to wait that PFMW is dispelled or some part of it is wasted because they are damage resisant, enemies that can cast on him Dragon Breath, ADHW or 3x Firearrow in a sequencer. Now he can still deliver some good DPS, but even in a well played party his weakness is much more evident.
Factor in HOF mode, or how it is called, and then is a problem to keep him alive. And he still have the same DPS then in core vanilla.
Pure class Kensai is the best example that I can think about to show how deceptive is to favor offensive power over defence in evalutating the power of a build.
About the power of an arcane caster/something other the point is not that he can IH himself, as in a party others can do it. F/M/T or F/M is so powerful because he can protect himself in a way that no other member of the party can give to him. SS, PFMW, SI and on and over......
On top of Simulacrum for 20APR, TS, 3xADHW in CC and Dragon Breath (9 lev F/M only), they are only added bonuses, the real power is in his defence capability.
Other builds, like Berseker/cleric have good but lesser defence capability so are inferior in power but still very pawerful. The more the defence capability decrease the more the power is only apparent, an illusion caused by a too easy environment.
And every class can beat core rules vanilla also in the hands of a player with moderate skills, but we don't assume that every class is powerful for this.......
Only when the game get hard the powerful one shines.
I'm still pretty sure Sorcerer is the most powerful character, though.
Infinite fire, acid, poison, cold and magic damage that bypass any magic resistance is pretty sweet.
Not to talk about the fact that, at higher lvl, no warrior comes even close to the dps released by a mage in 1 round.
PS: As regards the WoL, you can also release 18 Sunfires at the same time, this is roughly 800 damage with successful saves xD
I could cast stoneskin, mirror image, spirit armor, improved invisibility, spell immunity illusion, and spell immunity abjuration...then walk into battle and attack with a -9 thaco at 18-28 damage per hit until the enemy is dead. Or I could cast nothing and walk into battle with a -14 thaco at 23-33 damage per hit and get the same results in less time with no casting. Sure all of that magic protection would be powerful if you actually needed it but you don't. You are sacrificing 1/3 of your XP and a solid chunk of fighting skill for powerful protections that are not needed.
If you are solo then it is a different story because you have to fight everything by yourself so the fights can last longer and you don't have multiple mages to bring down the enemy defense for you. If you are playing SCS then yes the FMT and FM are king because again, the enemy has more hitpoints and more complex protections which force the fight to go on longer. In this situation the added magic protections truly matter.
I usually use Carsomyr with a FT or a Paladin but I have to admit that the last time I played through as a FMT I found dual wielding Scarlet nijato and Crom Fayer to be much more powerful. The FT and the Paladin gain from Carsomyr's magical protection but a FMT does not. I find that the FMT simply cannot be hit with enemy spells and with the boots of speed, even AOE spells are of little concern. Unless you are solo I find the auto dispel ability of Carsomyr to be much less useful in SCS because you need to crack through enemy protections, they cannot be simply dispelled and your mages will have to focus on breaking enemy protections first and will most likely have the enemy naked before your FMT can run up to them and start swinging. Also the enemy will be able to make a save vs spell in order to negate Carsomyr's dispel effect all togather.
Carsomyr does 22-34 damage a hit, 6 times a round and dual wielding Scarlet and CF does 23-35 damage a hit 10 times a round. You also have a +2 thaco because of the strength bonus from CF and you don't need to waste two HLA's on WW and GWW to get 10 APR. Also you can use critical strike with your natural 10 APR against enemies to do double damage 10 times a round while someone with Carsomyr will have to either use GWW for 10 attacks or Critical Strike for 6 attacks. Carsomyr cannot do both at the same time. This can make a massive damage difference to enemies who do not have helmets. With dual wielding long range attacks are annoying which is a negative but it does make backstabbing much more natural and easy. CF will insta kill golems and it's electrical damage will disrupt casting through stoneskins. Also scarlet's poison will continue to damage and disrupt casting for two rounds and it stacks.
Pros and cons. My first run through with a FMT was with Carsomyr and I think it's great and much easier to plot your proficiency points with. It also allows seamless use of a crossbow but if you use the crossbow regularly then is a bit annoying if you want to backstab. Dual wielding can do nearly double the damage per round and the FMT is plenty equipped with magical defense and the ability to bring down enemy protections if the other mages in your party fail for whatever reason. Again I should point out that this is with SCS. In the vanilla game I find Carsomyr to be best because you can simply run up to an enemy and start swinging and the enemy protections will go down in a flash. This not only makes the game easier on the player but In this case your extra mages could use their rounds to stun and damage the enemy instead of bringing down protections.
In the vanilla game I would go with a FT and Carsomyr. Not a pure fighter because I believe the ability to instantly destroy the most powerful enemy caster with a backstab before a fight starts to be very powerful. I also believe the thief HLA's are very powerful and make it worth the effort even in vanilla because ultimately the thief abilities are not about protection they are about more efficient damage. Timestop trap, assassination, UAI, and spike trap combined with X 5 backstab and detect illusions is worth the 1 level lower character progression and even though you give up grand mastery if you are multi instead of dual class you still gain Carsomyr so it all works out for the FT.
In SCS I would go with a FMT and dual wield scarlet and CF. This setup offsets the FMT's combat losses the best by giving you a maxed out APR to compensate for no +1 attack from the lack of grandmastery and it also gives you maxed out strength which helps compensate for damage and thaco loss from lack of grandmastery. Thanks to UAI the FMT can utilize montilo's cloak and the +3 speed weapon scarlet to give him a unique edge that can match a grand mastered fighter in everything but thaco and do it with far less pips spent. Carsomyr's passive abilities are less important for this build and it cannot compare when it comes to dual wield damage. The magic protections from the FMT make the difference in long battles with high damage dealing opponents like the ones that SCS brings to the table. It is worth the extra XP and time to pre-buff and babysit the character because SCS maxed out on insane is truly brutal. This is when the power of magical protections is finally needed and not just a time consuming "peace of mind" with negative combat consequences.
I felt like I should reiterate my standpoint on this argument with these posts since it has been over a year since I posted the bulk of my thoughts in this thread and I have had a few runs through the game with a FMT in the meantime which has given me a new perspective and ultimately changed my thought process about the FMT in some ways.
I understand your point about vanilla and SCS. The magical protection of a FMT or FM is not needed in the vanilla game, so you say that has not to be relevant in evalutating the power of a class, in that challenge. I still have a different opinion becouse I think that the power of a class is inherent, not depending on the challenge. Also in vanilla if you play on easy or insane the challenge is completely different, on easy you have a lot more hp and the enemies hit for half damage, so even the bonus of having more hp for being a 2class multi and not a 3class multi or a dual FM instead of a multi FM is almost not relevant.
If we factor in something not realted to the build but to the enviroment becomes almost impossible to determine wich is the most powerful build, is only possible to determine which build is the best at that specific conditions.
So for me the most powerful classes reamin the ones who have the best defence capabilities and also good offensive power, as they are the ones that have most choice to survive and win in every condition you put them. Some other classes can deal more damage at certain conditions, and under those specific conditions are viable and powerful, but if under other conditions they have problem to survive are not the inherently most powerfull ones.
About the 2hander FMT vs the DW one I agree with you. and still use a 2hander FMT.
Becouse in my parties I often have a Blade that can make good use of SNT and don't forge CF becouse I prefer to spread the strength enhancing items to the whole party (in my tipical party all the toons sorc excluded must have good mlee power) and I want to have the strength bonus also when ranged (there is a way to have it with all the weapon tipes, at least in notEE).
But again those are party dependant factors, condition dependant.
So you are right, as absolute power the DW FMT wins.
I agree with your opinion that the power of a class is inherent but I also believe that if it serves no purpose and it causes you to sacrifice things that do serve a purpose within the rules of the game then there is no point in having that extra power and you are in fact weaker overall.
For example. If each character could only do one point of damage per a round then it wouldn't matter if you had a 25 strength with 10 attacks a round vs an 18 strength with 1 attack a round. The 25 strength character would have more inherent power but it wouldn't mean anything in the game. The guy with the better equipment and protection would win.
The same is true for the FMT regarding the protective spells. He has a way more powerful magical protection but the fight ends faster for characters that can do more damage and those characters that do more damage have no problems surviving without magical protection and winning fights faster. You change the rules of the game with SCS and those more efficient damage dealers start to have problems surviving and now those protections are worth the combat sacrifices.
I am not saying the fighter thief is the best character or that there are not exceptions. I am saying that I think the FT has the best balance of power and progression using the original rule set and playing with the cannon party using my tactics. If I were to play a game with 5 beast masters in my party maybe my opinion would change to suit that ridiculous party. There is no definitive best character or most powerful character to suit all scenarios, battles, tactics ect. I do agree that a pure class Kensai does not perform as well as a FT in the vanilla game despite his ability to do more damage because his lack of armor, helmets, and baracers cause him to not have enough protection against insane double damage enemies. More damage is not always the answer.
Balance is the key that I am looking at when I think of my most powerful character. Not too much protection and not too little, while keeping damage per round in mind. When I first started posting in here last year I had no experience with the FMT and I had never pushed SCS to the absolute hardest settings. My mindset was more focused on pure damage because I could see the clear benefit of beating enemies faster. However after thinking about it some more and taking suggestions from the community I have realized that there is more to the equation than just damage but I do think some inherent power is not worth the sacrifice to gain under certain circumstances and game rules.
And it seems that we both agree that what make one character the most powerful is condition dependant as the damaging power of the enemies and their defence capability factor in in the equation.
So we have 4 variables in the equation, offence and defence for both character and enemy, two of them (the enemy's ones) have to be left undeterminated if we want to find out the power of a class without setting conditions (IE unmodded vanilla or SCS).
The big mainframe crunck the equation's data for hours and then on the little screen appear "SOLUTION IMPOSSIBLE-INSUFFICIENT DATA".
The scientist grabs Crom Faeyr and hits the mainframe.
I am right telling that the most powerful is the one who can perform better in the hardest conditions.
You are right telling that as he have to sacrifice offence to rise defence is not the best performing in milder conditions. Using a tank is not the most efficient way to drive in a city, and using a city car in a battlefield is not so wise.
Best possible character build? No answer, lack of data.
Dps is all in the (BG) life? Most of us agree that is not so, and reading old posts on this board and elsewere, where only dps was factored in determining the power of a class I tink that this long topic in the end is still useful.