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The ShadowDancer is broken now.

In the patch 1.2 hide in plain sight has a 6s cooldown after shadowdancer out of stealth, whether it is a success or failure hide, this makes shadowdancer becomes very fragile and the backstab adjustment makes it even worse.

Basically, no damage, no self protection against ranged attack and spells, lack of team contribution, this is over balanced! At least give shadowdancer a normal backstab adjustment like other kit.
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Comments

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Its a more tactically oriented class now than simply being a backstabbing oriented class like the Assassin. That said check this out if you aren't happy with these changes.

    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/22354/tweaking-the-thieves-shadowdancer-assassin-bounty-hunter-and-thief/p1
  • EmeusEmeus Member Posts: 64
    Corvino said:

    It's been said by @LiamEsler that "it is not meant to be a high-damage class in terms of backstabbing. The Shadowdancer is meant to be incredibly mobile, dealing damage and then moving quickly out of range."

    @Dee gave greater detail: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/373649/#Comment_373649

    In short the Shadowdancer is not meant to be a class for dealing lots of high-damage backstabs or going toe-to-toe with tougher monsters. They're all about mobility, scouting and flexibility. You can for example use them to engage archers rapidly using stealth (forcing them to melee) then shadowstep away when your tank arrives to do the real damage. Similarly you can stab an enemy mage with a dagger of venom and then Stealth and run away while the poison does its work.

    There's already a big discussion on this over on the "Road to v1.2" forum.

    The damage of backstab isn't the real point, "They're all about mobility, scouting and flexibility" sounds attractive but in the real gameplay the fact is : shadowdancer hide in plain sight successed, shadowdancer step out of stealth, hide in plain sight goes in 6s cooldown, shadowdancer has nothing to do but run away, shadowdancer has been slain.
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    edited November 2013
    If you want a thief for backstab damage, go Assassin, If you want a thief who can fight normally, go Swashbuckler.

    It's not there to fill in those roles.

    Stealth has always been once per round... And normally you would need to run behind a corner or something to even attempt it.
  • EmeusEmeus Member Posts: 64
    Kaltzor said:

    If you want a thief for backstab damage, go Assassin, If you want a thief who can fight normally, go Swashbuckler.

    It's not there to fill in those roles.

    So you agreed that shadowdancer is not capable of doing backstab damage nor fight normally as well right? And since shadowdancer can not set traps, has less skill points than normal thieves, hide in plain sight got "balanced", what can it do? :(
  • badbromancebadbromance Member Posts: 238
    Oh no not this topic again :(
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    Check the topic on the road to v1.2 forum. All this has been *heavily* discussed with Developers posting there with their reasoning and plans. Going over the same ground is not going to help much.
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    The backstab multipliers are stored in backstab.2da

    One can mod them to whatever they feel appropriate (don't go over 5).
  • MessiMessi Member Posts: 738
    If they gave SD same backstab multiplier as thief there wouldn't much point in playing thief over SD, except for roleplay reasons.
  • Cowled_wizardCowled_wizard Member Posts: 119
    edited November 2013
    6s cooldown does seem a bit too much
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    I'm going to throw it out there: Hide in Plain Sight is one of the best built-in get-out-of-jail-free cards in the game. You can duplicate the effect in some ways, but it can effectively stop a mage from ever being able to cast a spell at you by Stealthing as soon as they start the cast. If your HP drops then Stealth and drink a potion. It arguably makes Shadowdancer the most survivable of all thieves.

    A 6 second cooldown is absolutely fine when you think about how often you can use this very powerful ability.
  • EmeusEmeus Member Posts: 64
    Freche said:

    Emeus said:

    Kaltzor said:

    If you want a thief for backstab damage, go Assassin, If you want a thief who can fight normally, go Swashbuckler.

    It's not there to fill in those roles.

    So you agreed that shadowdancer is not capable of doing backstab damage nor fight normally as well right? And since shadowdancer can not set traps, has less skill points than normal thieves, hide in plain sight got "balanced", what can it do? :(
    Backstab a mage, HiPS, relocate.
    Let team go in, backstab again.

    The fact that you can remove a dangerous enemy from a group and disappear before even starting a fight is incredibly powerful.

    The Shadowdancer isn't supposed to be a one man army.
    The fact in v1.2 are:
    Assassin: backstab a mage, mage simply died, job's done~
    Shadowdancer: backstab a mage, can not HiPS, take a lot of damage or simply died under mage's evil spell in the next 6 seconds, (if it survived)relocate.

    Swashbuckler: "Enemies!Waaaaaaaagh!"
    Shadowdancer: "Backslap!Waaaaaaaagh!"(run across the map for 6 seconds)

    Bountyhunter: "Let's set up a trap."
    Shadowdancer: 0-0

    I admit there are something shadowdancer can do for its team but it can never provide the same contribution like other kits do, it's ability is extremely valuable when it is exactly a one man army.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited November 2013
    Emeus said:

    Freche said:

    Emeus said:

    Kaltzor said:

    If you want a thief for backstab damage, go Assassin, If you want a thief who can fight normally, go Swashbuckler.

    It's not there to fill in those roles.

    So you agreed that shadowdancer is not capable of doing backstab damage nor fight normally as well right? And since shadowdancer can not set traps, has less skill points than normal thieves, hide in plain sight got "balanced", what can it do? :(
    Backstab a mage, HiPS, relocate.
    Let team go in, backstab again.

    The fact that you can remove a dangerous enemy from a group and disappear before even starting a fight is incredibly powerful.

    The Shadowdancer isn't supposed to be a one man army.
    The fact in v1.2 are:
    Assassin: backstab a mage, mage simply died, job's done~
    Shadowdancer: backstab a mage, can not HiPS, take a lot of damage or simply died under mage's evil spell in the next 6 seconds, (if it survived)relocate.
    More like backstab a mage, use shadowstep, walk away or hide in shadows again. You can use shadowstep immediately after backstabbing.
  • Or my strategy, waltz into a mage's view unstealthed, stealth as soon as he starts casting, back out of view and unstealth, wait for the cooldown, repeat.

    There are few safer ways to deal with a mage who's ready to spit magic missiles at anything he sees.
  • EmeusEmeus Member Posts: 64
    elminster said:

    Emeus said:

    Freche said:

    Emeus said:

    Kaltzor said:

    If you want a thief for backstab damage, go Assassin, If you want a thief who can fight normally, go Swashbuckler.

    It's not there to fill in those roles.

    So you agreed that shadowdancer is not capable of doing backstab damage nor fight normally as well right? And since shadowdancer can not set traps, has less skill points than normal thieves, hide in plain sight got "balanced", what can it do? :(
    Backstab a mage, HiPS, relocate.
    Let team go in, backstab again.

    The fact that you can remove a dangerous enemy from a group and disappear before even starting a fight is incredibly powerful.

    The Shadowdancer isn't supposed to be a one man army.
    The fact in v1.2 are:
    Assassin: backstab a mage, mage simply died, job's done~
    Shadowdancer: backstab a mage, can not HiPS, take a lot of damage or simply died under mage's evil spell in the next 6 seconds, (if it survived)relocate.
    More like backstab a mage, use shadowstep, walk away or hide in shadows again. You can use shadowstep immediately after backstabbing.
    Of course a 5 or higher level shadowdancer can shadowstep away, but in BGEE a shadowdancer can use shadowstep only once per day, even it steps away, then? An assassin can deal triple backstab damage than shadowdancer before level 9, if it can end in one stab, why do it in 3 times, especially there are teammates awaiting.
  • FelspawnFelspawn Member Posts: 161
    amazing how making a class less cheesy and overpowered always seems to "brake it" from the munchkin set
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    They don't backstab hard. Shadowdancers are not Assassins, and were not intended to be.

    They get 2 new tools that no other thief has. Think about what they can do and adapt your playstyle. If you don't like it then maybe playing an assassin with a lot of potions of invisbility would be better for you, it's a legit choice.
  • onanonan Member Posts: 223
    A bit off topic but one does wonder: If Shadowdancer is broken, what is the wizard slayer?
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    I've never been a big fan of HIPs. The implementation in NWN2 was so blatantly abusable that most players used it as unlimited use invisibility. On certain servers, you literally couldn't PvP unless you had 1 level of shadow dancer. And you absolutely had to max out your perception abilities to have any chance at countering it.

    I am not broken up 'If' Shadow dancer can't be abused in that manner anymore. Although, from what I have read thus far in this thread, I suspect that you simply have to have the correct strategy to make it a useful character. I'd suggest that the OP try out different ways of doing things to see what works. But if they are merely looking to replicate the unlimited abuse invisibility of NWN2, I'd say they are kind of out of luck.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,042
    The wizard slayer is just fine; I have one now and the fact that she cannot use magic items is not hindering her at all. In fact, she is doing better than my kensai did. *shrug* Curiously, there are various sets of boots which are still usable by wizard slayers but this is probably an oversight.

    I tried using a Shadowdancer but they just don't appeal to me. Not being able to use Shadowstep or HiPS for a few seconds is not insurmountable and is why I usually give all potions of invisibility to my thief character and run their hiding by script ("if I don't see an enemy and I am not looking for traps then hide" etc). My wife likes Shadowdancers and will probably build one when she finally gets around to trying BGEE but I prefer assassins.
  • EmeusEmeus Member Posts: 64

    I've never been a big fan of HIPs. The implementation in NWN2 was so blatantly abusable that most players used it as unlimited use invisibility. On certain servers, you literally couldn't PvP unless you had 1 level of shadow dancer. And you absolutely had to max out your perception abilities to have any chance at countering it.

    I am not broken up 'If' Shadow dancer can't be abused in that manner anymore. Although, from what I have read thus far in this thread, I suspect that you simply have to have the correct strategy to make it a useful character. I'd suggest that the OP try out different ways of doing things to see what works. But if they are merely looking to replicate the unlimited abuse invisibility of NWN2, I'd say they are kind of out of luck.

    There is nothing to worry about that, in NWN2 shadowdancer is a prestige class and all other core class can unlock it, that is why it is abused. However in BGEE shadowdancer is just a standard Thief class,you won't hit by a bigby's forceful sneak hand I am ensure xD
  • HandofTyrHandofTyr Member Posts: 106
    It's been a while since I've played a thief in BG2, but I don't remember ever having problems chunking a wizard with my F/M/T or Assassin. Will the shadowdancer's lower backstab be enough to incapacitate wizards in that game?

    My suggestion generally for the class would be to add shadow themed debuffing powers, as in stat and level drain powers. Maybe all just rolled into one "shadow strike" or some-such. This would give the class a different design space from the other thief kits. Assassins for backstabbing, swashbucklers for frontline support, bounty hunters for trapping, and shadowdancer for debilitating.

    Depending on the nature of the debuffs it could also make the shadowdancer play a little differently from other steath and backstab styles. While mages are most likely always going to be the primary target, a properly set up debuff suite might make targeting enemy warriors more tempting for the shadowdancers. Basically attack the equation at the other end- instead of waxing the mage and cleaning up the warriors, make the warrior(s) feeble to allow your party to ignore them and mob the wizard.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited November 2013
    Emeus said:

    elminster said:

    Emeus said:

    Freche said:

    Emeus said:

    Kaltzor said:

    If you want a thief for backstab damage, go Assassin, If you want a thief who can fight normally, go Swashbuckler.

    It's not there to fill in those roles.

    So you agreed that shadowdancer is not capable of doing backstab damage nor fight normally as well right? And since shadowdancer can not set traps, has less skill points than normal thieves, hide in plain sight got "balanced", what can it do? :(
    Backstab a mage, HiPS, relocate.
    Let team go in, backstab again.

    The fact that you can remove a dangerous enemy from a group and disappear before even starting a fight is incredibly powerful.

    The Shadowdancer isn't supposed to be a one man army.
    The fact in v1.2 are:
    Assassin: backstab a mage, mage simply died, job's done~
    Shadowdancer: backstab a mage, can not HiPS, take a lot of damage or simply died under mage's evil spell in the next 6 seconds, (if it survived)relocate.
    More like backstab a mage, use shadowstep, walk away or hide in shadows again. You can use shadowstep immediately after backstabbing.
    Of course a 5 or higher level shadowdancer can shadowstep away, but in BGEE a shadowdancer can use shadowstep only once per day, even it steps away, then? An assassin can deal triple backstab damage than shadowdancer before level 9, if it can end in one stab, why do it in 3 times, especially there are teammates awaiting.
    If you really want to get technical you can actually use it twice a day but only at level 10.

    Once the assassin kills his one target whats he going to do? Run away from any other enemies ? Engage them? A shadowdancer has 40 more skill points than an assassin by level 4 and 70 by level 10. Not only are you going to have to worry less about standing around waiting for your shadowdancer's stealth to even work initially before combat (compared to an assassin) but in general you can get more utility out of the kit.

    For combat a shadowdancer is going to be better at distracting enemies while your other party members for instance attack with ranged weapons and spells.

    Theres actually currently (and I say currently because I'm sure somebody will report this hehe) a way you can use to get the shadowdancer to be able to immediately hide in shadows again after attacking. When you are in stealth and are about to attack just switch weapons (and switch back) in the main (non-inventory) screen. You'll start leaving stealth but you'll stay invisible for a time (depends on your HiS/MS). You will still be able to backstab in this state, but the timer for when you can next use stealth will start (you can also get this by attacking and missing but its less controllable). So you can backstab a target (or normal damage a target) and then hide immediately (if timed right).
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Emeus said:

    There is nothing to worry about that, in NWN2 shadowdancer is a prestige class and all other core class can unlock it, that is why it is abused. However in BGEE shadowdancer is just a standard Thief class,you won't hit by a bigby's forceful sneak hand I am ensure xD

    How about taking things in a different direction. Instead of trying to make your Shadowdancer 'On par' combat wise with the fighters of the group, are there alternate ways you can use the shadowdancer skills that add value to the group?

    Not every class is intended to be 'Balanced' such that they can PvP against any other class and have a fair chance. Is it possible that a shadowdancer's abilities lend themselves more to another strategy and thus a different role in the group than combat? Just a thought.

  • EmeusEmeus Member Posts: 64
    elminster said:

    Emeus said:

    elminster said:

    Emeus said:

    Freche said:

    Emeus said:

    Kaltzor said:

    If you want a thief for backstab damage, go Assassin, If you want a thief who can fight normally, go Swashbuckler.

    It's not there to fill in those roles.

    So you agreed that shadowdancer is not capable of doing backstab damage nor fight normally as well right? And since shadowdancer can not set traps, has less skill points than normal thieves, hide in plain sight got "balanced", what can it do? :(
    Backstab a mage, HiPS, relocate.
    Let team go in, backstab again.

    The fact that you can remove a dangerous enemy from a group and disappear before even starting a fight is incredibly powerful.

    The Shadowdancer isn't supposed to be a one man army.
    The fact in v1.2 are:
    Assassin: backstab a mage, mage simply died, job's done~
    Shadowdancer: backstab a mage, can not HiPS, take a lot of damage or simply died under mage's evil spell in the next 6 seconds, (if it survived)relocate.
    More like backstab a mage, use shadowstep, walk away or hide in shadows again. You can use shadowstep immediately after backstabbing.
    Of course a 5 or higher level shadowdancer can shadowstep away, but in BGEE a shadowdancer can use shadowstep only once per day, even it steps away, then? An assassin can deal triple backstab damage than shadowdancer before level 9, if it can end in one stab, why do it in 3 times, especially there are teammates awaiting.
    If you really want to get technical you can actually use it twice a day but only at level 10.

    Once the assassin kills his one target whats he going to do? Run away from any other enemies ? Engage them? A shadowdancer has 40 more skill points than an assassin by level 4 and 70 by level 10. Not only are you going to have to worry less about standing around waiting for your shadowdancer's stealth to even work initially before combat (compared to an assassin) but in general you can get more utility out of the kit.

    For combat a shadowdancer is going to be better at distracting enemies while your other party members for instance attack with ranged weapons and spells.

    Theres actually currently (and I say currently because I'm sure somebody will report this hehe) a way you can use to get the shadowdancer to be able to immediately hide in shadows again after attacking. When you are in stealth and are about to attack just switch weapons (and switch back) in the main (non-inventory) screen. You'll start leaving stealth but you'll stay invisible for a time (depends on your HiS/MS). You will still be able to backstab in this state, but the timer for when you can next use stealth will start (you can also get this by attacking and missing but its less controllable). So you can backstab a target (or normal damage a target) and then hide immediately (if timed right).
    I think my shadowdancer can only reach level 10 in the blackpits:P

    Once the assassin kills his one target, he doesn't need to do anything more, his purpose is to disposal powerful enemy so his teammates can fight straight away after the assassinate. This is not a role play problem, like I said before, "There are something shadowdancer can do for its team but it can never provide the same contribution like other kits do". If there are some ways to make shadowdancer glowing again I think it is in the solo way,not in the group anymore.

    By the way, I've noticed the little trick since I played shadowdancer in v1.2,but still thanks xD
  • ghostowlghostowl Member Posts: 171
    I think the 6 sec cooldown is still a lot...even after all the points mentioned in this thread
  • EmeusEmeus Member Posts: 64

    Emeus said:

    There is nothing to worry about that, in NWN2 shadowdancer is a prestige class and all other core class can unlock it, that is why it is abused. However in BGEE shadowdancer is just a standard Thief class,you won't hit by a bigby's forceful sneak hand I am ensure xD

    How about taking things in a different direction. Instead of trying to make your Shadowdancer 'On par' combat wise with the fighters of the group, are there alternate ways you can use the shadowdancer skills that add value to the group?

    Not every class is intended to be 'Balanced' such that they can PvP against any other class and have a fair chance. Is it possible that a shadowdancer's abilities lend themselves more to another strategy and thus a different role in the group than combat? Just a thought.

    Shadowdancer can be cute in the role, but in a real game it still needs to fight, and if it's a team fight, must I repeat it over and over again?
  • FrecheFreche Member Posts: 473
    But there is no point in the game where you need top dps. Both games can easily be completed with only one character.
    But if you dislike the play style of the shadowdancer that much why not just roll an assassin.
  • mylegbigmylegbig Member Posts: 292
    Shadowdancer seems fine at higher levels, but for most of BG1 it looks weaker than the vanilla thief, which is already weaker than every other thief kit. What's the point of stealth when you don't have a backstab multiplier? Sure, you can scout, but every other thief kit (and rangers and monks) can do that already. Being able to "cancel" a mage's spell doesn't seem particularly useful since the mage would have to be casting a single target spell AND targeting the PC.

    I think having it start out with a x2 bs and end with either x3 or x4 would be fine.
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