Hopefully they will find another way by the time bg2ee comes out I am keeping a save in hope. Until then I am just going duel ranger/cleric that way I know for sure I will be combat efficient.
As a note I think the cd on hips removes the point in having the class at all. I think a thief point cap for ms and his would be the easiest and most effective way to balance sd but then you still have to take potions of perception and gear into account . Maybe a blanket failure rate so you couldn't really cheese it with potions of perception but might bring a proper balance. A wild thief so to speak
I still say, if they're going to bother implementing a 3rd edition class, they should do it right. Give them a small amount of illusion-based shadow magics to play around with, in addition to what they currently have (except an even weaker BS), reduce thief points back to 15. And instead of epic traps, they gain the ability to pick extra uses of shadow step, Shadow double, or Summon shadow. That way they'd trade straight up damage and utility for almost at-will invisibility, and several disabling/defensive spells while still being able to provide thief utility albeit slower.
At higher levels their damage would be less then the other thieves, but since they'd have the innate ability to summon shadows and simulacrums, they could stay out of harm's way while still contributing.
(As mentioned in the other thread, give them Blindness once per day per 4 levels, Mass-Blindness (basically glitterdust but without the sparkles or remove invisibility) once per day every 8 levels. Mirror image once per day per 10 levels. Summon Shadow at 12, and shadow double (Simulacrum) at 21)).
And then implement the vanilla (and ONLY the vanilla) thief's missing ability to cast spells from scrolls at lvl 10.
The thing with no limitation on HiPS is that it wouldn't make the SD op it would make it completely broken. No-detection, attack, hide, attack, hide attack ...
HiPS isn't 100% success, even put 100 skill points into both hide in shadow and move silent the stealth could still fail. In BG2EE there will be monsters that can see through stealth, no-detection won't work on these things, when that time come, other thieves can set traps or fight along, shadowdacer can do nothing but "waaaaaaaagh"xDDD
100 in both MS and HiS would guarantee success during night time. Starting an Elf with 19dex and all points into stealth you can begin the game with a total of 110 points = 55% stealth during night. At level 2 you should have the Stealth Boots and an additional 20points, 165 points in stealth = 82.5% chance to stealth during night (not standing in a light source). If you also buy the Shadow Armor you can reach exactly 200 points in stealth by level 3 = 100% success during night.
And only during night time. Shadowdancer still needs to put points into detect trap, otherwise he or his teammates could still be killed by traps under Insane level, and here comes the problem, shadowdancer needs to put a lot of points into both stealth skill, they can only have free points in late game, which makes shadowdancer's early journey more harder.
Shadowdancers don't NEED to put points into Detect Trap. You are allowed to have more than one Thief in your party.
However, the new version is much better than the old if the only thief in the party. The bonus skill points mean you no longer need to dump so many into stealth, and without a backstab you may as well put points into Detect Trap early on.
My Shadowdancer is an archer at low level, using shadowstep to stay out of melee range and remove traps during battle.
The thing with no limitation on HiPS is that it wouldn't make the SD op it would make it completely broken. No-detection, attack, hide, attack, hide attack ...
HiPS isn't 100% success, even put 100 skill points into both hide in shadow and move silent the stealth could still fail. In BG2EE there will be monsters that can see through stealth, no-detection won't work on these things, when that time come, other thieves can set traps or fight along, shadowdacer can do nothing but "waaaaaaaagh"xDDD
100 in both MS and HiS would guarantee success during night time. Starting an Elf with 19dex and all points into stealth you can begin the game with a total of 110 points = 55% stealth during night. At level 2 you should have the Stealth Boots and an additional 20points, 165 points in stealth = 82.5% chance to stealth during night (not standing in a light source). If you also buy the Shadow Armor you can reach exactly 200 points in stealth by level 3 = 100% success during night.
And only during night time. Shadowdancer still needs to put points into detect trap, otherwise he or his teammates could still be killed by traps under Insane level, and here comes the problem, shadowdancer needs to put a lot of points into both stealth skill, they can only have free points in late game, which makes shadowdancer's early journey more harder.
Shadowdancers don't NEED to put points into Detect Trap. You are allowed to have more than one Thief in your party.
However, the new version is much better than the old if the only thief in the party. The bonus skill points mean you no longer need to dump so many into stealth, and without a backstab you may as well put points into Detect Trap early on.
My Shadowdancer is an archer at low level, using shadowstep to stay out of melee range and remove traps during battle.
Recruit another thief just for detect traps? Here is the thing, I am building a evil team: Kagain - 20CON fighter, Edwin - 18INT Conjurer with a sweet necklace, Viconia -19DEX cleric with 50 magic resist, Dorn - 19STR halforc blackguard, Baeloth - 19INT sorcerer with a sweet ring, 50 magic resist and more known spells than a normal sorcerer, there is only one slot left for a thief role, so I don't think my slots are enough for this, besides, thief NPCs' state are usually awful, I don't want to recruit them after all.
Speaking about shadowdancer being an archer, I could tell you even at high level it is still wisely to use a bow, due to the 6s cooldown of HiPS, ranged attack is much safer and the dps of x2 backstab is merely a little bit higher than a shortbow. Btw, disarm traps in combat? that's a few things a shadowdancer can have presence is the group
The bonus to hide/move silently, shadow armor and worn whispers allow you to spend more points on find traps an open locks early and still have a decent stealth chance. With the x1 BS mod I just use HiPS to give a +4 bonus to ranged attacks. By the time level 8 hits (plus the dex tome + using DUHM if you get it as a power) you should be fine to disarm/picklocks and have decent stealth to boot. I personally like the kit however a shorter cooldown for HiPS would just be gravy
The logic of some people in this thread seems to be go like this: SD not best at everything = class ruined. Also the no timer thing on HiPS was an obvious bug, and absolutely overpowered.
Yeah, they were always supposed to have the cooldown, they just didn't before because the kit was bugged. The backstab multiplier and skill point adjustment were tweaks done for rebalancing, to be sure, but the stealth cooldown was always meant to be there.
The logic of some people in this thread seems to be go like this: SD not best at everything = class ruined. Also the no timer thing on HiPS was an obvious bug, and absolutely overpowered.
Not at all~ Shadowdancer was never best at everything, not in v1.2 nor previously version, the main topic is the cooldown of HiPS, will shadowdancer become best at everything if HiPS has no cooldown again? I don't think so. I'm not asking to reduce HiPS cooldown back to 0s, but 6s cooldown is quite long in combat, many shadowdancers prefer ranged attack rather than melee in v1.2 proved it, so consider this topic a complain
And if HiPS cooldown is a real bug in previously version, then it is not completely fixed in v1.2 yet, you can still use some little trick to make HiPS no cooldown(similar).and if it fixed, there will extend a lot of new problem.
You're going to have a hard time being the sole thief in the party in BG1; it's doable with potions but if you get another thief to handle even one of open locks or find traps, things become a lot easier to manage. Doing your outdoor questing at night will help a lot as far as stealth goes.
As for tactics, I mentioned my tactic on page one of draining mages of all of their spells by interrupting the casting with hiding. This saves you from a lot of damage and trouble, especially against magic missiles and acid arrows that are difficult to interrupt reliably otherwise. Against melee enemies, a shadowdancer with a bow is a very safe kiter, being able to use HiPS to reposition to longer range for shooting, as well as for separating additional enemies that you might pick up while running around. This is very useful in the early game, before you've picked up a full party to support you. Against archers, you can stealth into melee range (or shadow step if they take you off guard) and hold them until a fighter in your group reaches melee range, at which point you can stealth to shed aggro. The big benefit to HiPS prior to getting a backstab modifier is the ability to limit the risks to your thief in combat by hiding when an enemy decides to attack him (though you can also take advantage of the +4 THAC0 bonus from attacking with stealth without a backstab modifier). Once you have a backstab modifier, the 6 second cooldown makes sure you cannot attack with impunity; since you only get one attack per round, it doesn't have much impact on your ability to chain backstabs, but ensures that you cannot immediately disappear after backstabbing to avoid potentially being attacked.
I wonder if it's better to just dual class to fighter then, after getting a high stealth score. You keep all the utility and your damage as a shadowdancer will never be great, so just go nuts in BG2 with dual wielding.
I don't understand why they use 3rd edition prestige classes as BGEE kits when there's a plethora of 2nd edition ones to choose from. Of course there's gonna be balance and compatibility issues.
I wonder if it's better to just dual class to fighter then, after getting a high stealth score. You keep all the utility and your damage as a shadowdancer will never be great, so just go nuts in BG2 with dual wielding.
Or you can become a very safe mage.
The ability to fire off a spell and immediately hide is tempting, especially since the stealth cooldown doesn't interfere with ability use, and the cloak of non-detection makes it better than invisibility. Fighter is a tempting choice too, though, for allowing you to bounce in and out of combat easily.
With a 6s cd, x3 multiplier, little armor,no utility, and low proffs your worthless no matter how you look at it. You do very little melee dmg even when you hit, you can't stay in melee range cause your squishy, you will not have enough shadow steps to support running out of combat after a backstab ever and even in doing so your making hips pointless. You get to shoot one poor arrow shot instead of going 5 yards more to re-stealth for a much higher multiplier backstab.
There is no point in trying to reason with people who can't admit that the no delay HIPS literally was a cheat button, so I'm not gonna even bother, but I must say, all this crying about the cooldown is pretty funny.
6s cd, omg is broke! all my leet tactic of clicking it over and over is useless now! QQ
As a point of comparison: World of Warcraft has a rogue ability called Vanish which is essentially the same as HiPS. It had a cooldown of 3 minutes when I played because it was so very useful. The cooldown may actually have been longer than that when I started playing, it was a long time ago.
WoW rogues do a bit more damage than their BG:EE counterparts but are just as squishy, moreso when facing bosses that will splat you in 1 hit.
Did you play one that you didn't build with shadow keeper? My human sd has all his points in move silently and hide in shadows the boots and chest of stealth and still has a worse than 30% failure rate rng willing(better at night). Riiiggght there are allot of broken mechanics in these games the diff is the other kits were not built on them. Maybe you could try being productive instead of just trolling the thread but there is no point in trying to reason with people that have no interest in progression. While I realize that it can be abused not everyone cheeses through games. Intended or not the cd was a poor way to bring balance to a mechanic that a kit is reliant on it for combat ability. The reason I suggested a blanket failure rate or thief skill cap for the kit If you read the thread you would have seen that and that way the kit has a chance to be op at times and crap at others depending on rng.
@Chaotic_Good Thieves in second edition AD&D are not a class designed for the cut and thrust of combat. They can backstab but to do so exposes a squishy party member to the enemy. Most thieves tend to sit at the back with bows. In 2e there were utility classes that didn't bring much to combat, but you needed one in your party because traps/locks/scouting was something no-one else could do as well. Shadowdancers are arguably a lot *better* at combat than most other thieves because while they won't do as much damage they're less likely to be splattered all over the scenery. As the saying goes: "A dead rogue does 0 DPS".
Considering that most abilities in the Baldur's Gate game are limited to a couple of times a day, having a 6 second cooldown seems alright to me. Having a less than 6 second cooldown on HiPS is basically an *I win* button that makes you completely immune to reprisals when attacking from stealth. Having a cooldown of less than 6 seconds and using it regularly IS cheesing through the game.
As for random chance - it's a D&D game. There are "dice" rolled behind the scene for everything. Everything has a chance of failure, just be glad a DM isn't enforcing critical failures on you. If you want to be able to HiPS 100% of the time in bright sunlight then you're going to need extraordinarily high stealth skills (An average of 200 in both Move Silently and Hide in Shadows), or make sure you're fighting at night or in the shadows and actually roleplay it a bit. Changing a game mechanic that works fine for every other class just because it mildly inconveniences Shadowdancers is a lot of work for a tiny payout.
I don't think HiPS is bad per se, but even regular thieves can stealth once every 6 seconds in the middle of combat with the assistance of speed boots. The real power of the old shadowdancer is not being able to hide in plain sight but rather being able to hide more often. Now, I agree that being able to hide infinitely often is overdoing it, but I'd be interested in trying a mod that lowers the cooldown to 3s or so.
Can't test it myself ATM, but if this CD uses the same mechanic as stealth failure CD, being hasted should reduce it in half. So there you go, me being productive.
Of course, that won't stop the tears, because apparently any duration is too much to bear when you want the godmode button back :P
And I liked how "not everyone cheeses through games" yet at the same time "kit is reliant on it (i.e. no CD) for combat ability"
I am not sure if guys are reading my posts or If I am not making my points clear.
@Corvino None of the thief kits play like a trap monkey they all have combat ability/utility balance
Having a static failure rate is a cd but one that is left up to a roll instead of assuring one win for one failure at a huge point cost. With sd because of the low multiplier and cd you can do be more effective dmgwith a vanilla thief.
What abilities are we talking about crazy op skills like poison weapon and abilities that get progressively better with more uses through out the game.
There is no roll on a 6s cd and no other class has hips unless you count sanctuary and that is pretty much 100%.
@doomdoomdoom It is because of the low multiple 2 attempts 2x the failure chance 2x the time for the same amount of dmg or less = around 2/3 the dps of a vanilla thief in bg. Increasing the multiplier is just as poor of a fix as the cd though. In bg2 with the abundant invis items the dps will not even compaire. Even though you don't seem to understand what I am saying a skill point cap and/or a blanket failure rate is a cd.
It has no utility so its obviously not a utility class, It has no combat effectiveness so its not a combat class and it doesn't buff so its not a support class.
Kits are about flavor and roleplaying, nothing else.
If you like the flavor of a kit, you play it, otherwise you play a F/M multi-class, because nothing is better overall.
Keep in mind, the NWN version of HiPS should not have existed, since it left out the main requirement for hiding in plain sight....you needed to be within 5ft of a shadow large enough to hold your character. So technically HiPS should actually require the character to be shadowed or in a dark area (such as at night) in order to hide while observed.
And even in 3rd edition, you cannot hide immediately after an attack, since attacking and hiding are both standard actions. Hence the 6 second CD is actually fully legit in both systems.
That said, the shadow dancer is still in the same boat as the wizard slayer. They're missing basically all their actual perks, while having most of their penalties. HiPS is icing on the cake, and is simply a fringe benefit of their ability to manipulate shadows in various ways.
As has been said, if flavor and rp are all that matter, why bother downgrading the class in the first place? There is obviously some level of concern for balance in some- not insignificant- portion of the player base and/or with the developers.
That said, I haven't played the class and thus have only a vague idea of how it performed before the nerf or performs now. Just from reading the features it does seem that it's basically really good at hiding to no real purpose. I agree that the class should be moved into a shadow themed debuff/utility role with new powers.
@ZanathKariashi Dude are you kidding? We are adding abilities to to classes in a earlier edition and turning a prestige class into a kit... fully legit in both systems? What systems are those? It's crazy how I got so few of the abilities I was meant to get as a shadow dancer?? odd it must have been bad rng...
Here you go kids: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Hide_In_Plain_Sight_(DnD_Hide_Skill_Use) Hide in plain sight Hide You can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as you are within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, you can hide yourself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. You cannot, however, hide in your own shadow. You must take a -40 penalty to your hide check to do this. If you take a -80 penalty to your hide check you may use the Hide skill even while being observed regardless of your environment.
Edit: Sniping http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Hide_Skill If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.
Not that it matters since its a not the edition we are playing in.
Shadow dancers have nothing to do with that part of post.
It refers ONLY to hiding, which is the same in both editions. There isn't enough time in a round to attack and attempt to hide, HiPS only allows you to do so while observed, it doesn't in anyway grant you the ability to hide more often.
In the individual initiative system (which BG uses), the round doesn't begin until you initiate an action, in this case, acknowledging you wish to attack. Aside from movement (if you only attack once), you can do NOTHING else that round. Technically speaking, if you used a 7-10 speed weapon, you could technically attempt to hide immediately after since your attack wouldn't occur till the end of the round, at which point the new round would begin 1 or 2 seconds later and you could then hide. Though lower weapon speed would result you revealing yourself sooner in the round and having to wait longer before the attempt.
Pretiege classes can be converted to base-classes (kits is a misnomer since all kits are technically base-classes, just variants of existing classes whose changes can be minor or monumental relative to "base" class they're a variant of), it's simply a matter of ensuring that their level of power is balanced for their level. Most prestige classes require at least lvl 5 and most cap at 15, so their abilities should be roughly appropriate for lvl 5 or 15 respectively.
Converting to a base class requires spreading those benefits out over double the period of time.
In this case my idea for the shadow-dancer would be.
1d6, 30 skill points at creation, 15 skill per level. Cannot set traps
You're going to have a hard time being the sole thief in the party in BG1; it's doable with potions but if you get another thief to handle even one of open locks or find traps, things become a lot easier to manage. Doing your outdoor questing at night will help a lot as far as stealth goes.
As for tactics, I mentioned my tactic on page one of draining mages of all of their spells by interrupting the casting with hiding. This saves you from a lot of damage and trouble, especially against magic missiles and acid arrows that are difficult to interrupt reliably otherwise. Against melee enemies, a shadowdancer with a bow is a very safe kiter, being able to use HiPS to reposition to longer range for shooting, as well as for separating additional enemies that you might pick up while running around. This is very useful in the early game, before you've picked up a full party to support you. Against archers, you can stealth into melee range (or shadow step if they take you off guard) and hold them until a fighter in your group reaches melee range, at which point you can stealth to shed aggro. The big benefit to HiPS prior to getting a backstab modifier is the ability to limit the risks to your thief in combat by hiding when an enemy decides to attack him (though you can also take advantage of the +4 THAC0 bonus from attacking with stealth without a backstab modifier). Once you have a backstab modifier, the 6 second cooldown makes sure you cannot attack with impunity; since you only get one attack per round, it doesn't have much impact on your ability to chain backstabs, but ensures that you cannot immediately disappear after backstabbing to avoid potentially being attacked.
It is good to see comments from a real shadowdancer player, in your tactics shadowdancer is still better when solo, since you can not draining a mage's spell while your party is with you, a mage could simply cast spells on your party, and by the way, some of aoe spells won't be interrupt by HiPS, such as fireball. And also it is hard to kite enemies while your teammates are around.
For me, when I got the Worn Whispers I just dumped all my teammates and head to the area that north from Friendly arm Inn, you can use HiPS to slain Ankheg for fast leveling up to 6 if you bring the right gears. When you reach a high level, things will getting easier.
It is good to see comments from a real shadowdancer player, in your tactics shadowdancer is still better when solo, since you can not draining a mage's spell while your party is with you, a mage could simply cast spells on your party, and by the way, some of aoe spells won't be interrupt by HiPS, such as fireball. And also it is hard to kite enemies while your teammates are around.
For me, when I got the Worn Whispers I just dumped all my teammates and head to the area that north from Friendly arm Inn, you can use HiPS to slain Ankheg for fast leveling up to 6 if you bring the right gears. When you reach a high level, things will getting easier.
It's true that the Shadowdancer has a lot to recommend it for solo play, and the strategy of leveling up before recruiting other party members is a good one to help you solidify your stealth skills quickly. I often use the basilisk garden for that purpose, as Korax often makes clearing that map trivial, and HiPS makes separating and kiting the adventurer party viable for a single character (if a bit slow). While kiting loses its utility in a large party, the shadowdancer can still kite very effectively with HiPS while operating in a duo, which can be handy if you're taking Imoen along as a backup thief or plan on taking an NPC that you want to control the proficiencies of (such as Shar-Teel). Incidentally, if you like dual-classing Imoen to Mage, she'll dual-class right around the time your shadowdancer has solidified their stealth skills (depending on your race/Dex), meaning you can branch out into find traps/open locks to cover that need while she's earning her levels back.
You can still drain a mage's spells while you are in a party; you just have to leave the rest of the party outside the mage's field of vision so he doesn't attempt to target anyone else. Mages with AoE spells not targeted directly at the shadowdancer might be a problem. I'm not sure exactly what falls into that category. I know I've canceled lightning bolts by hiding. In that case, you may still be able to avoid the spell by using Shadow Step and retreating to a safe distance.
Lol I don't really think it can be thought of as a strategy cause its not like your not going to hips for any reason other than you failed your roll rushing the troops in after that's the strategy. My sd is a human at lv 5-6 I still fail 1/3 of the time with boots and chest of stealth, prolly the reason some other players don't understand the balance that failing rolls bring, but It was still a lil op.
Comments
As a note I think the cd on hips removes the point in having the class at all. I think a thief point cap for ms and his would be the easiest and most effective way to balance sd but then you still have to take potions of perception and gear into account . Maybe a blanket failure rate so you couldn't really cheese it with potions of perception but might bring a proper balance. A wild thief so to speak
At higher levels their damage would be less then the other thieves, but since they'd have the innate ability to summon shadows and simulacrums, they could stay out of harm's way while still contributing.
(As mentioned in the other thread, give them Blindness once per day per 4 levels, Mass-Blindness (basically glitterdust but without the sparkles or remove invisibility) once per day every 8 levels. Mirror image once per day per 10 levels. Summon Shadow at 12, and shadow double (Simulacrum) at 21)).
And then implement the vanilla (and ONLY the vanilla) thief's missing ability to cast spells from scrolls at lvl 10.
Shadowdancers don't NEED to put points into Detect Trap. You are allowed to have more than one Thief in your party.
However, the new version is much better than the old if the only thief in the party. The bonus skill points mean you no longer need to dump so many into stealth, and without a backstab you may as well put points into Detect Trap early on.
My Shadowdancer is an archer at low level, using shadowstep to stay out of melee range and remove traps during battle.
Speaking about shadowdancer being an archer, I could tell you even at high level it is still wisely to use a bow, due to the 6s cooldown of HiPS, ranged attack is much safer and the dps of x2 backstab is merely a little bit higher than a shortbow. Btw, disarm traps in combat? that's a few things a shadowdancer can have presence is the group
With the x1 BS mod I just use HiPS to give a +4 bonus to ranged attacks. By the time level 8 hits (plus the dex tome + using DUHM if you get it as a power) you should be fine to disarm/picklocks and have decent stealth to boot.
I personally like the kit however a shorter cooldown for HiPS would just be gravy
Edit: This is all purely my opinion.
And if HiPS cooldown is a real bug in previously version, then it is not completely fixed in v1.2 yet, you can still use some little trick to make HiPS no cooldown(similar).and if it fixed, there will extend a lot of new problem.
You're going to have a hard time being the sole thief in the party in BG1; it's doable with potions but if you get another thief to handle even one of open locks or find traps, things become a lot easier to manage. Doing your outdoor questing at night will help a lot as far as stealth goes.
As for tactics, I mentioned my tactic on page one of draining mages of all of their spells by interrupting the casting with hiding. This saves you from a lot of damage and trouble, especially against magic missiles and acid arrows that are difficult to interrupt reliably otherwise. Against melee enemies, a shadowdancer with a bow is a very safe kiter, being able to use HiPS to reposition to longer range for shooting, as well as for separating additional enemies that you might pick up while running around. This is very useful in the early game, before you've picked up a full party to support you. Against archers, you can stealth into melee range (or shadow step if they take you off guard) and hold them until a fighter in your group reaches melee range, at which point you can stealth to shed aggro. The big benefit to HiPS prior to getting a backstab modifier is the ability to limit the risks to your thief in combat by hiding when an enemy decides to attack him (though you can also take advantage of the +4 THAC0 bonus from attacking with stealth without a backstab modifier). Once you have a backstab modifier, the 6 second cooldown makes sure you cannot attack with impunity; since you only get one attack per round, it doesn't have much impact on your ability to chain backstabs, but ensures that you cannot immediately disappear after backstabbing to avoid potentially being attacked.
Or you can become a very safe mage.
6s cd, omg is broke! all my leet tactic of clicking it over and over is useless now! QQ
WoW rogues do a bit more damage than their BG:EE counterparts but are just as squishy, moreso when facing bosses that will splat you in 1 hit.
Considering that most abilities in the Baldur's Gate game are limited to a couple of times a day, having a 6 second cooldown seems alright to me. Having a less than 6 second cooldown on HiPS is basically an *I win* button that makes you completely immune to reprisals when attacking from stealth. Having a cooldown of less than 6 seconds and using it regularly IS cheesing through the game.
As for random chance - it's a D&D game. There are "dice" rolled behind the scene for everything. Everything has a chance of failure, just be glad a DM isn't enforcing critical failures on you. If you want to be able to HiPS 100% of the time in bright sunlight then you're going to need extraordinarily high stealth skills (An average of 200 in both Move Silently and Hide in Shadows), or make sure you're fighting at night or in the shadows and actually roleplay it a bit. Changing a game mechanic that works fine for every other class just because it mildly inconveniences Shadowdancers is a lot of work for a tiny payout.
Of course, that won't stop the tears, because apparently any duration is too much to bear when you want the godmode button back :P
And I liked how "not everyone cheeses through games" yet at the same time "kit is reliant on it (i.e. no CD) for combat ability"
@Corvino
None of the thief kits play like a trap monkey they all have combat ability/utility balance
Having a static failure rate is a cd but one that is left up to a roll instead of assuring one win for one failure at a huge point cost. With sd because of the low multiplier and cd you can do be more effective dmgwith a vanilla thief.
What abilities are we talking about crazy op skills like poison weapon and abilities that get progressively better with more uses through out the game.
There is no roll on a 6s cd and no other class has hips unless you count sanctuary and that is pretty much 100%.
@doomdoomdoom
It is because of the low multiple 2 attempts 2x the failure chance 2x the time for the same amount of dmg or less = around 2/3 the dps of a vanilla thief in bg. Increasing the multiplier is just as poor of a fix as the cd though. In bg2 with the abundant invis items the dps will not even compaire. Even though you don't seem to understand what I am saying a skill point cap and/or a blanket failure rate is a cd.
It has no utility so its obviously not a utility class, It has no combat effectiveness so its not a combat class and it doesn't buff so its not a support class.
Kits are about flavor and roleplaying, nothing else.
If you like the flavor of a kit, you play it, otherwise you play a F/M multi-class, because nothing is better overall.
Keep in mind, the NWN version of HiPS should not have existed, since it left out the main requirement for hiding in plain sight....you needed to be within 5ft of a shadow large enough to hold your character. So technically HiPS should actually require the character to be shadowed or in a dark area (such as at night) in order to hide while observed.
And even in 3rd edition, you cannot hide immediately after an attack, since attacking and hiding are both standard actions. Hence the 6 second CD is actually fully legit in both systems.
That said, the shadow dancer is still in the same boat as the wizard slayer. They're missing basically all their actual perks, while having most of their penalties. HiPS is icing on the cake, and is simply a fringe benefit of their ability to manipulate shadows in various ways.
That said, I haven't played the class and thus have only a vague idea of how it performed before the nerf or performs now. Just from reading the features it does seem that it's basically really good at hiding to no real purpose. I agree that the class should be moved into a shadow themed debuff/utility role with new powers.
Dude are you kidding? We are adding abilities to to classes in a earlier edition and turning a prestige class into a kit... fully legit in both systems? What systems are those? It's crazy how I got so few of the abilities I was meant to get as a shadow dancer?? odd it must have been bad rng...
Here you go kids:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Hide_In_Plain_Sight_(DnD_Hide_Skill_Use)
Hide in plain sight
Hide
You can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as you are within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, you can hide yourself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. You cannot, however, hide in your own shadow. You must take a -40 penalty to your hide check to do this. If you take a -80 penalty to your hide check you may use the Hide skill even while being observed regardless of your environment.
Edit: Sniping http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Hide_Skill
If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.
Not that it matters since its a not the edition we are playing in.
It refers ONLY to hiding, which is the same in both editions. There isn't enough time in a round to attack and attempt to hide, HiPS only allows you to do so while observed, it doesn't in anyway grant you the ability to hide more often.
In the individual initiative system (which BG uses), the round doesn't begin until you initiate an action, in this case, acknowledging you wish to attack. Aside from movement (if you only attack once), you can do NOTHING else that round. Technically speaking, if you used a 7-10 speed weapon, you could technically attempt to hide immediately after since your attack wouldn't occur till the end of the round, at which point the new round would begin 1 or 2 seconds later and you could then hide. Though lower weapon speed would result you revealing yourself sooner in the round and having to wait longer before the attempt.
Pretiege classes can be converted to base-classes (kits is a misnomer since all kits are technically base-classes, just variants of existing classes whose changes can be minor or monumental relative to "base" class they're a variant of), it's simply a matter of ensuring that their level of power is balanced for their level. Most prestige classes require at least lvl 5 and most cap at 15, so their abilities should be roughly appropriate for lvl 5 or 15 respectively.
Converting to a base class requires spreading those benefits out over double the period of time.
In this case my idea for the shadow-dancer would be.
1d6, 30 skill points at creation, 15 skill per level. Cannot set traps
Lvl 1: HiPS (as current), +20 MS/Hide, +10 DI, x1 BS
lvl 4: Shadow Blindness x1 (lasts 2 rounds, -1 save per 4 levels), additional uses per 4 levels.
lvl 5: Shadow Step x1, additional uses per 5 levels.
lvl 8: Mass Blindness x1 (lasts 4 rounds, save), additional uses per 8 levels.
Lvl 9: x2 BS, +4 saves vs enchantment spells
10: Mirror Image x1, additional uses per 10 levels.
12: Summon Shadow x1 (has 1 HD for every 3 class levels, drains 1 str on hit, undead immunties)
17: x3 BS (final), Permanent Non-Detection
21: Shadow Double x1
23: Immunity to Charm/Dom
HLA-
Instead of HLA traps, can get additional uses of Summon Shadow, Shadow Double, and Shadow Step.
All abilities except Summon Shadow and Shadow Double cast at speed 1.
For me, when I got the Worn Whispers I just dumped all my teammates and head to the area that north from Friendly arm Inn, you can use HiPS to slain Ankheg for fast leveling up to 6 if you bring the right gears. When you reach a high level, things will getting easier.
And I recommend you go to get this ring, http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/23009/here-is-a-little-tool-that-perfect-combine-with-shadowdancer#latest , it is a precious to shadowdancer xD
You can still drain a mage's spells while you are in a party; you just have to leave the rest of the party outside the mage's field of vision so he doesn't attempt to target anyone else. Mages with AoE spells not targeted directly at the shadowdancer might be a problem. I'm not sure exactly what falls into that category. I know I've canceled lightning bolts by hiding. In that case, you may still be able to avoid the spell by using Shadow Step and retreating to a safe distance.