But there is no point in the game where you need top dps. Both games can easily be completed with only one character. But if you dislike the play style of the shadowdancer that much why not just roll an assassin.
Damage is not the point, why is everyone so focus on shadowdancer's damage? It is just an extended problem because of HiPS have a new 6s cooldown. Perhaps a game under Core rules can be EASILY completed with one character, but not under Insane.
This isn't World of Warcraft. You don't need to compete with other classes for raid slots, and you don't need to worry about overpowered classes ganking you in PvP. Class balance is NOT AN ESSENTIAL DESIGN GOAL.
Know what's an utterly worthless class that's totally outclassed by similar kits? Vanilla fighters. Don't like them? Don't play them. It's that simple.
Shadowdancers fill a unique niche inside BG that didn't previously exist. If you don't want to play that role, stick with assassins and swashbucklers.
This isn't World of Warcraft. You don't need to compete with other classes for raid slots, and you don't need to worry about overpowered classes ganking you in PvP. Class balance is NOT AN ESSENTIAL DESIGN GOAL.
Know what's an utterly worthless class that's totally outclassed by similar kits? Vanilla fighters. Don't like them? Don't play them. It's that simple.
Shadowdancers fill a unique niche inside BG that didn't previously exist. If you don't want to play that role, stick with assassins and swashbucklers.
Well said. I'd rather have the new kits underpowered than overpowered when compared to the old classed/kits.
But there is no point in the game where you need top dps. Both games can easily be completed with only one character. But if you dislike the play style of the shadowdancer that much why not just roll an assassin.
Damage is not the point, why is everyone so focus on shadowdancer's damage? It is just an extended problem because of HiPS have a new 6s cooldown. Perhaps a game under Core rules can be EASILY completed with one character, but not under Insane.
You are the one one that seems fixated on damage. There are many here that think the SD fills a viable role even though lower stab multiplier and no endless stabbing.
But there is no point in the game where you need top dps. Both games can easily be completed with only one character. But if you dislike the play style of the shadowdancer that much why not just roll an assassin.
Damage is not the point, why is everyone so focus on shadowdancer's damage? It is just an extended problem because of HiPS have a new 6s cooldown. Perhaps a game under Core rules can be EASILY completed with one character, but not under Insane.
You are the one one that seems fixated on damage. There are many here that think the SD fills a viable role even though lower stab multiplier and no endless stabbing.
If you read my topic clearly, you will notice I mentioned backstab multiplier AFTER cooldown, and my firtst reply to you I mentioned the cooldown again.
"a viable role even though lower stab multiplier and no endless stabbing" Great, no damage, no self protection after step out stealth, no endless stabbing, no trap, but a viable role kit, splendid~
This isn't World of Warcraft. You don't need to compete with other classes for raid slots, and you don't need to worry about overpowered classes ganking you in PvP. Class balance is NOT AN ESSENTIAL DESIGN GOAL.
Know what's an utterly worthless class that's totally outclassed by similar kits? Vanilla fighters. Don't like them? Don't play them. It's that simple.
Shadowdancers fill a unique niche inside BG that didn't previously exist. If you don't want to play that role, stick with assassins and swashbucklers.
"Class balance is NOT AN ESSENTIAL DESIGN GOAL." Then why they "balanced" shadowdancer at the first place? Crab invaded?
The thing with no limitation on HiPS is that it wouldn't make the SD op it would make it completely broken. No-detection, attack, hide, attack, hide attack ...
Okay, rather than everyone being negative and telling Emeus he's a bad player, how about people share their Shadowdancer strategies?
A lot of you think that the dissatisfaction with the kit is due to people playing it incorrectly, so let's hear how you make it awesome.
I'd like to experiment with it myself but I don't have the new patch so all I can say is that on paper it looks cute but underwhelming.
That's what I want to hear, some people keep saying the shadowdancer is still fine when comparing with other kits, but have they played shadowdancer in v1.2 or not? For me, I alredy dumped all my teammates and go for solo, shadowdancer has low presence in a team, if you take care all of your teammates, you can play even without shadowdancer, and if you focus on shadowdancer, you don't even need to be in a team.
The thing with no limitation on HiPS is that it wouldn't make the SD op it would make it completely broken. No-detection, attack, hide, attack, hide attack ...
HiPS isn't 100% success, even put 100 skill points into both hide in shadow and move silent the stealth could still fail. In BG2EE there will be monsters that can see through stealth, no-detection won't work on these things, when that time come, other thieves can set traps or fight along, shadowdacer can do nothing but "waaaaaaaagh"xDDD
The thing with no limitation on HiPS is that it wouldn't make the SD op it would make it completely broken. No-detection, attack, hide, attack, hide attack ...
HiPS isn't 100% success, even put 100 skill points into both hide in shadow and move silent the stealth could still fail. In BG2EE there will be monsters that can see through stealth, no-detection won't work on these things, when that time come, other thieves can set traps or fight along, shadowdacer can do nothing but "waaaaaaaagh"xDDD
Your class has a weakness? Oh noes!
Kind of like mages against magic immune enemies, or warriors fighting an enemy that is invulnerable to everything but a weapon type they don't have...
There are six character slots, maybe you could use the other five slots to balance strengths and weaknesses?
Without having played (or planning to play) the new SD, I think it's ok. Previously I think the SD outright sucked until level 5+ (depending on race) because the lack of thief points/level meant it took ages to build up enough for HIPS to be reliable. Once it got over this bump it became more or less unbeatable.
Now it is more balanced (with respect to its previous self, not any other kit) as it gets a stealth bonus and more points per level meaning it can start pulling its weight earlier while the HIPS nerf prevents the game being too easy.
A couple of caveats: - I am slightly disappointed about the backstab nerf however, since it does seem a bit like hiding for the sake of hiding. - It will need something extra late in BG2 - firstly stealth becomes less powerful with enemies that can see through invisibility and enemies immune to backstab. Secondly will they get HLA traps and if not they should get something nice to replace them. It would be good if these things had already been considered by the devs so we don't have to have another rebalancing.
This isn't World of Warcraft. You don't need to compete with other classes for raid slots, and you don't need to worry about overpowered classes ganking you in PvP. Class balance is NOT AN ESSENTIAL DESIGN GOAL.
Know what's an utterly worthless class that's totally outclassed by similar kits? Vanilla fighters. Don't like them? Don't play them. It's that simple.
Shadowdancers fill a unique niche inside BG that didn't previously exist. If you don't want to play that role, stick with assassins and swashbucklers.
"Class balance is NOT AN ESSENTIAL DESIGN GOAL." Then why they "balanced" shadowdancer at the first place? Crab invaded?
For the same reason monsters don't die instantly when you click on them: with all challenge removed, the game isn't fun.
It's worth noting that kits don't normally affect HLAs: shadowdancers will still get regular HLAs, including traps, which can be set whilst shadowstepping.
Be interesting to see what they do with Blackguard HLAs though.
Being able to invis at will is game breaking and think it would be better balanced by taking away his and ms from shadow dancers. Giving a around 30% failure rate that can be effected by gear allowing sd to get around 85% hips and 80 ms with gear restrictions. That is really just for the sake of pure class sd im going sd/cleric so the change wont hurt me at all.
My sd is lv 5 and I am not sure what plans they have for the class current spells: Drain-Shadowstep-cure light wounds I am not sure what their plans for the class in bg2 are but a few more necro spells could be cool Like: Energy Drain, Finger of death, skull trap, horror, contagion
The class has allot of weakness We are not talking about 2 backstabs for a kill we are talking 3-4 back stabs and even more attempts for normal guys. I am sure as the game scales up its going to be pretty crazy with the gear restrictions thieves have. no to little utility in bg Gear restriction for a high % his chance I am lv 5 have all my points in his and ms and still have at least 20% failure rate
The 6s cooldown 6s exposure to battle that will have to be made up with invis potions and it was the reason that people rolled the class because this way they didn't need to burn up potions. So now we get 50% off our potions cost and nothing else. Since people just cheese perma invis with potions there is no reason not to be an assassin once again, at least with the class the way it is there is a chance for failure. Hopefully they will add some more class specific spells and consider the changes I posted at the start of the comment.
I have a level 6 pre-patch Shadowdancer. He is an elf with 19 dex and the shadow armor. I don't know his exact stats for MS and HiS but I have put all points in those. Even in broad daylight he is almost unstoppable. I easily handled the sirens and flesh golems and basilisks by hiding, stabbing and immediately hiding. Even on the rare chance that stealth fails I run out of site and his Dagger of Venom usually does the trick. He accounts for about 75% of the total xp in the party.
I would say that the pre-patch Shadowdancer is way overpowered if used correctly. I am not even using him as mage bait, basically because it is easier to hide and just kill them.
I really like the updates because now I feel like the Assassin gets his spot back as the best backstabber. Assassins were always a favorite kit of mine but it didn't make a lot of sense in BGEE when the Shadowdancer was introduced.
It's been said by @LiamEsler that "it is not meant to be a high-damage class in terms of backstabbing. The Shadowdancer is meant to be incredibly mobile, dealing damage and then moving quickly out of range."
In short the Shadowdancer is not meant to be a class for dealing lots of high-damage backstabs or going toe-to-toe with tougher monsters. They're all about mobility, scouting and flexibility. You can for example use them to engage archers rapidly using stealth (forcing them to melee) then shadowstep away when your tank arrives to do the real damage. Similarly you can stab an enemy mage with a dagger of venom and then Stealth and run away while the poison does its work.
There's already a big discussion on this over on the "Road to v1.2" forum.
You can already do most of this with a regular thief and an invisibility potion. I keep hearing that the shadowdancer is meant to be "tactical", but we already have plenty of tactics available to the unkitted thief and bounty hunter that pretty much fill this role with the addition of a potion or ring.
What we *don't* have is thief who can use frequent (albeit weaker) backstabs in the midst of combat. Instead of trying to make the shadowdancer fill a role that can already be filled by most other thieves, why not have it fill a stealthy but combat-viable role that doesn't currently exist otherwise?
There's very little benefit to being able to "move tactically" when you can't deal significant damage and you can't take a significant hit.
@+Purudaya I would also like to add no utility. Someone above said that they have 40 more points at lv 5 and they do but the assassin kit doesn't need high ms and his. They only use them out of combat so they can just re-roll on failure and rely on potions after exposure. All in all it comes out around net -120 skill points at lv 8 so we place all of our points in those skills and still must rely on potions. I don't know whats in bg2, but if there are shadow dancer npcs it could have been a AI issue.
Edit:I think a hard cap to his and ms would have been better. Rp - Though everyone keeps there eye on a thief when near shadow dancers demand more attention due to there ability to seemingly vanish into thin air.
I am not saying it didn't need nerfed, but that isn't a good nerf.
The thing with no limitation on HiPS is that it wouldn't make the SD op it would make it completely broken. No-detection, attack, hide, attack, hide attack ...
HiPS isn't 100% success, even put 100 skill points into both hide in shadow and move silent the stealth could still fail. In BG2EE there will be monsters that can see through stealth, no-detection won't work on these things, when that time come, other thieves can set traps or fight along, shadowdacer can do nothing but "waaaaaaaagh"xDDD
100 in both MS and HiS would guarantee success during night time. Starting an Elf with 19dex and all points into stealth you can begin the game with a total of 110 points = 55% stealth during night. At level 2 you should have the Stealth Boots and an additional 20points, 165 points in stealth = 82.5% chance to stealth during night (not standing in a light source). If you also buy the Shadow Armor you can reach exactly 200 points in stealth by level 3 = 100% success during night.
Well yes, the backstab modifier progression change does mean the kit got hit with the nerfhammer hard, as far as BG1 is concerned. No backstab through levels 1-8 is essentially most of the game (and actually all of the game as far as dualclassing from SD is concerned, so this patch essentially killed any point of such builds). I know they did that with BG2EE in mind first and foremost (stretching it all the way to L25), and just backported it into BG1 making less work for themselves, but since this was a patch for BG1, not BG2, it doesn't make much sense. Maybe the original progression was a bit too strong for BG1, but the change is just going full retard in the opposite direction. Most of the combat overpowered-ness came from the no-delay hide&attack chaining, which they rightfully fixed with the cooldown.
On a positive note, the cooldown feels perfect. You actually have to time your actions between HiPS to avoid missiles and targeted spells, rather than being basically immune to them.
One thing I'm noticing, though - is it normal for monsters to follow/gather around you while HiPS? I've been trying out the new shadowdancer build in the black pits and if I'm the only party member left standing, enemies passively follow me while I'm hidden (sometimes encircling me so that I can't move away). Is this intended?
Rage!!! what trash its just a gimped thief and now I have to start the game over. It's a good thing you had your thinking caps on when you made the class just to mush it into the other thief kits.
Edit: I just don't get it did you guys add something that is harder? Why buff bounty hunter, shadow dancer, and, vanilla thief? You guys buffed shadow dancer into vanilla thief minus utility and buffed Bounty hunter and vanilla thief which were balanced for the games already. The only thing that doesn't mind funk me in this is the assassin nerf I can understand it. I was looking at your mod -edit.
This isn't World of Warcraft. You don't need to compete with other classes for raid slots, and you don't need to worry about overpowered classes ganking you in PvP. Class balance is NOT AN ESSENTIAL DESIGN GOAL.
Know what's an utterly worthless class that's totally outclassed by similar kits? Vanilla fighters. Don't like them? Don't play them. It's that simple.
Shadowdancers fill a unique niche inside BG that didn't previously exist. If you don't want to play that role, stick with assassins and swashbucklers.
"Class balance is NOT AN ESSENTIAL DESIGN GOAL." Then why they "balanced" shadowdancer at the first place? Crab invaded?
Balanced versus what the game has to offer, not versus other classes.
The thing with no limitation on HiPS is that it wouldn't make the SD op it would make it completely broken. No-detection, attack, hide, attack, hide attack ...
HiPS isn't 100% success, even put 100 skill points into both hide in shadow and move silent the stealth could still fail. In BG2EE there will be monsters that can see through stealth, no-detection won't work on these things, when that time come, other thieves can set traps or fight along, shadowdacer can do nothing but "waaaaaaaagh"xDDD
Your class has a weakness? Oh noes!
Kind of like mages against magic immune enemies, or warriors fighting an enemy that is invulnerable to everything but a weapon type they don't have...
There are six character slots, maybe you could use the other five slots to balance strengths and weaknesses?
Of course you can use your teammates to fill your weakness, but I am simply comparing shadowdancer with other THIEF KITS~ And if the shadowdancer is in a team, need I to repeat it over again?
Btw, I don't really think mages and sorcerers have weakness when they reach a high level.
The thing with no limitation on HiPS is that it wouldn't make the SD op it would make it completely broken. No-detection, attack, hide, attack, hide attack ...
HiPS isn't 100% success, even put 100 skill points into both hide in shadow and move silent the stealth could still fail. In BG2EE there will be monsters that can see through stealth, no-detection won't work on these things, when that time come, other thieves can set traps or fight along, shadowdacer can do nothing but "waaaaaaaagh"xDDD
100 in both MS and HiS would guarantee success during night time. Starting an Elf with 19dex and all points into stealth you can begin the game with a total of 110 points = 55% stealth during night. At level 2 you should have the Stealth Boots and an additional 20points, 165 points in stealth = 82.5% chance to stealth during night (not standing in a light source). If you also buy the Shadow Armor you can reach exactly 200 points in stealth by level 3 = 100% success during night.
And only during night time. Shadowdancer still needs to put points into detect trap, otherwise he or his teammates could still be killed by traps under Insane level, and here comes the problem, shadowdancer needs to put a lot of points into both stealth skill, they can only have free points in late game, which makes shadowdancer's early journey more harder.
This isn't World of Warcraft. You don't need to compete with other classes for raid slots, and you don't need to worry about overpowered classes ganking you in PvP. Class balance is NOT AN ESSENTIAL DESIGN GOAL.
Know what's an utterly worthless class that's totally outclassed by similar kits? Vanilla fighters. Don't like them? Don't play them. It's that simple.
Shadowdancers fill a unique niche inside BG that didn't previously exist. If you don't want to play that role, stick with assassins and swashbucklers.
"Class balance is NOT AN ESSENTIAL DESIGN GOAL." Then why they "balanced" shadowdancer at the first place? Crab invaded?
Balanced versus what the game has to offer, not versus other classes.
If you don't like it, mod it.
I will be appreciate if you can tell me how to mod the cooldown of HiPS
Comments
Know what's an utterly worthless class that's totally outclassed by similar kits? Vanilla fighters. Don't like them? Don't play them. It's that simple.
Shadowdancers fill a unique niche inside BG that didn't previously exist. If you don't want to play that role, stick with assassins and swashbucklers.
A lot of you think that the dissatisfaction with the kit is due to people playing it incorrectly, so let's hear how you make it awesome.
I'd like to experiment with it myself but I don't have the new patch so all I can say is that on paper it looks cute but underwhelming.
"a viable role even though lower stab multiplier and no endless stabbing"
Great, no damage, no self protection after step out stealth, no endless stabbing, no trap, but a viable role kit, splendid~
Then why they "balanced" shadowdancer at the first place? Crab invaded?
No-detection, attack, hide, attack, hide attack ...
Kind of like mages against magic immune enemies, or warriors fighting an enemy that is invulnerable to everything but a weapon type they don't have...
There are six character slots, maybe you could use the other five slots to balance strengths and weaknesses?
Now it is more balanced (with respect to its previous self, not any other kit) as it gets a stealth bonus and more points per level meaning it can start pulling its weight earlier while the HIPS nerf prevents the game being too easy.
A couple of caveats:
- I am slightly disappointed about the backstab nerf however, since it does seem a bit like hiding for the sake of hiding.
- It will need something extra late in BG2 - firstly stealth becomes less powerful with enemies that can see through invisibility and enemies immune to backstab. Secondly will they get HLA traps and if not they should get something nice to replace them. It would be good if these things had already been considered by the devs so we don't have to have another rebalancing.
Be interesting to see what they do with Blackguard HLAs though.
My sd is lv 5 and I am not sure what plans they have for the class
current spells: Drain-Shadowstep-cure light wounds
I am not sure what their plans for the class in bg2 are but a few more necro spells could be cool
Like: Energy Drain, Finger of death, skull trap, horror, contagion
The class has allot of weakness
We are not talking about 2 backstabs for a kill we are talking 3-4 back stabs and even more attempts for normal guys. I am sure as the game scales up its going to be pretty crazy with the gear restrictions thieves have.
no to little utility in bg
Gear restriction for a high % his chance
I am lv 5 have all my points in his and ms and still have at least 20% failure rate
The 6s cooldown
6s exposure to battle that will have to be made up with invis potions and it was the reason that people rolled the class because this way they didn't need to burn up potions. So now we get 50% off our potions cost and nothing else. Since people just cheese perma invis with potions there is no reason not to be an assassin once again, at least with the class the way it is there is a chance for failure. Hopefully they will add some more class specific spells and consider the changes I posted at the start of the comment.
I would say that the pre-patch Shadowdancer is way overpowered if used correctly. I am not even using him as mage bait, basically because it is easier to hide and just kill them.
I really like the updates because now I feel like the Assassin gets his spot back as the best backstabber. Assassins were always a favorite kit of mine but it didn't make a lot of sense in BGEE when the Shadowdancer was introduced.
What we *don't* have is thief who can use frequent (albeit weaker) backstabs in the midst of combat. Instead of trying to make the shadowdancer fill a role that can already be filled by most other thieves, why not have it fill a stealthy but combat-viable role that doesn't currently exist otherwise?
There's very little benefit to being able to "move tactically" when you can't deal significant damage and you can't take a significant hit.
I would also like to add no utility. Someone above said that they have 40 more points at lv 5 and they do but the assassin kit doesn't need high ms and his. They only use them out of combat so they can just re-roll on failure and rely on potions after exposure. All in all it comes out around net -120 skill points at lv 8 so we place all of our points in those skills and still must rely on potions. I don't know whats in bg2, but if there are shadow dancer npcs it could have been a AI issue.
Edit:I think a hard cap to his and ms would have been better. Rp - Though everyone keeps there eye on a thief when near shadow dancers demand more attention due to there ability to seemingly vanish into thin air.
I am not saying it didn't need nerfed, but that isn't a good nerf.
Starting an Elf with 19dex and all points into stealth you can begin the game with a total of 110 points = 55% stealth during night.
At level 2 you should have the Stealth Boots and an additional 20points, 165 points in stealth = 82.5% chance to stealth during night (not standing in a light source). If you also buy the Shadow Armor you can reach exactly 200 points in stealth by level 3 = 100% success during night.
No backstab through levels 1-8 is essentially most of the game (and actually all of the game as far as dualclassing from SD is concerned, so this patch essentially killed any point of such builds).
I know they did that with BG2EE in mind first and foremost (stretching it all the way to L25), and just backported it into BG1 making less work for themselves, but since this was a patch for BG1, not BG2, it doesn't make much sense.
Maybe the original progression was a bit too strong for BG1, but the change is just going full retard in the opposite direction. Most of the combat overpowered-ness came from the no-delay hide&attack chaining, which they rightfully fixed with the cooldown.
One thing I'm noticing, though - is it normal for monsters to follow/gather around you while HiPS? I've been trying out the new shadowdancer build in the black pits and if I'm the only party member left standing, enemies passively follow me while I'm hidden (sometimes encircling me so that I can't move away). Is this intended?
High points in Move Silently, btw.
Edit: I just don't get it did you guys add something that is harder? Why buff bounty hunter, shadow dancer, and, vanilla thief? You guys buffed shadow dancer into vanilla thief minus utility and buffed Bounty hunter and vanilla thief which were balanced for the games already. The only thing that doesn't mind funk me in this is the assassin nerf I can understand it. I was looking at your mod
If you don't like it, mod it.
Btw, I don't really think mages and sorcerers have weakness when they reach a high level.