Ultimately, your alignment is just two words on a character sheet. What type of character your charname turns out to be is determined by how you play. (And judging from the writing of Black Pits 2, paladins are allowed to lie through their teeth if the situation calls for it). I tend towards lawful good in my playstyle, but that's because the extent of the rep-reducing actions in vanilla BG1 is "lie about being Greywolf" and "be stupid evil."
Also, the rule of thumb for paladins is "value goodness over lawfulness if the two conflict" since you're not powered by the laws of the land, but rather by the rules of your God.
(Now if only I could figure out how to make a Paladin kit called the Templar that's Lawful Neutral and then balance it properly...)
Amoens quest shows, that the cleric seeks knighthood as a stepstone to become a Paladin. What is a knight, if he swears no oath to protect his country and it's laws? He would just be a soldier or mercenary.
Um, so? And who says that Anomen is trying to be a Paladin? What's the relevance here?
But let's return to the "a paladin would never smite the wicked". Tell me again, what quest is given in BG2 from the temple of helm? Something about comfirming wethere there is a new true god, or a false god? What exactly should we do if we find a false god? Shake hands?
Um, who ever said that "A paladin would never smite the wicked"? That is certainly nothing even remotely like what I said. A Paladin wouldn't strike without cause, that is true. A Paladin would need more of a cause than "Walking around while Evil" this is also true. A Paladin would never Pick a totally unwinable fight if there wasn't anything at stake other than "Smiting Evil" to be gained, that is also true. But I never even remotely suggested that a Paladin would never smite the wicked. That's all you.
One final note. It is possible to believe in the necessity of laws and the importance of a just government without liking or supporting the current administration. Not only is that highly possible, it is extremely probable. Particularly if the government is not just or good. A Paladin in a Drow city would think nothing at all of the laws of the land as they are cruel and unjust. The same is true in Rashaman and probably in Calimport, just to name a very few places in Faerun. Thus supporting the argument that although there is a correlation in that a Paladin's order rules may parallel Goodly governments, this is not a requirement.
Heck, if you look at the real world today, you can easily see that the Church, which is a Lawful institution, clashes with local government so often that there has to be a division of Church and state as part of Society.
Plus, if it were true that a Paladin would blindly support laws, what is a paladin to do if they move from one country where something is illegal and steps over the boarder to another country where that same thing is a mandatory legal action? Believing in the rule of law does NOT mean they blindly follow all laws.
Amoens quest shows, that the cleric seeks knighthood as a stepstone to become a Paladin. What is a knight, if he swears no oath to protect his country and it's laws? He would just be a soldier or mercenary.
No, no, no, no. Knighthood is NOT a stepping stone to being a paladin. Anomen will always be a cleric, but knightly orders are not restricted paladins alone. Most of them accept clerics and devout fighters as well. Some accept stranger things, depending on the deity's interests.
Anomen isn't swearing an oath to his country. He's swearing an oath to his ORDER. He isn't beholden to Amn (which is a technicality away from Lawful Evil anyway), but to the Radiant Heart and their gods.
Being a member of a holy order is VERY different than being a soldier or mercenary.
Granted, some paladins will end up swearing oaths and serving their countries instead of a holy order. It happens all the time in Cormyr. I also believe it's required in Tethyr that holy orders need to swear an oath to the crown as well, but they're LG and can get away with that sort of requirement without pissing off the churches.
Ferun is such a nice place, because the book of law actually devides the responsibilities. The temple deal in the devine, the circle of magi deal with the arcane, and the crown with it's soldiers and knights deal with the mudane.
Faerun isn't that nice of a place, really. Half of it is ridiculously despotic.
And these divisions don't really exist either. Knights of holy orders deal with the divine, clerics and paladins of Mystra deal with the arcane as much as mages would, and the Church of Tyr is sure as hell going to be dealing with the mundane.
@the_spyder I wonder if you actually did read your own statement. You seem to disagree, then give an example which actually supports my claim: "The Order of the Radiant Heart is a fraternity of lawful good paladins and clerics that operates throughout Faerûn. Members of the order devote themselves to fighting evil and injustice, maintaining peace and upholding the law. The Order has followers of many goodly deities in its ranks, but the knights of the Order mainly venerate the gods Torm, Tyr and Helm. The Order's motto is: "The courage of one can change the destiny of many" " So what was it again, Amoen doesn't want to be knighted, doesn't want to be a Paladin? Either way, if he wants to join the Order of Radiant Hearts, then he will swear to uphold the law. Bingo a lawful good character who want to join a lawful good organisation. Another example for a lawful-good character was provided in the description of lawful good in the character screen: "a sterm but forthright minister of justice". No Paladin, No Cleric, no Order, no deity involved, and still LG. Funny, huh?
But since you are still telling me, that I misunderstand lawful alignment, why don't you answer my question about a lawful good thief?
I don't mind if you hold your Paladins in high esteem, but please don't make all lawful-good people shallow.
On your sidenote: Which church is a lawful-good organisation? I think there are over 300 churches and cults out there. And virtually every church in medivial times did a lot of things which you would not like in this day and age. For example the Inquisistion, the selling of "indulgentia" or the witchhunts. Didn't you say that a LG organisation would never without a good reason strike the wicked? Apperently all the reason was needed, was someone pointing ans shouting "witch!".
A lawful good Paladin will in my point of view abide the laws of a foreign country, or choose not to set a step into it. I can't picture a Paladin surviving long in places like Luskan, unless he bows to the will of the towers that is.
@Rhaella If my divisions aren't correct, why do the magi of the circle in BG2 tell me not to cast spells in the city - while the soldiers stand around and do nothing? If you follow their advice, you will enter the mudane court, and what will they say who is responsible for a licence to use magic? Why aren't the soldiers interfering with a public execution of a wicked soul? Ready to burn her on the stake, even though building a pyre takes a lot of time. As you can see above, the Order of the Radiant Hearts has sworn to uphold the law, why whould Amoen be an exception? They cleary stated the coexistence of Clerics, Knights and Paladins in the Order, and that should give you a hint that my reasoning isn't too far off. Besides, nobody but Amoen will know what he will do.
A lot of good stuff here. Rhaella excellent points about oaths to Holy Orders; I would add that historically such oaths always include a stipulation that they came before all other vows. The order/church/pope had first allegience.
RazaDelrom you hold much hostility towards the church that is coloring your judgement on this. Like it or not, the local church or religion defines the basis of right and wrong across most of the world, throughout history. Atheist states are a modern invention. It is true of course, that every religion, every church, is a flawed human institution. In a fantasy setting like the Forgotten Realms, the broad variety of faiths actually provide more range than reality does, and there is more legitimacy to evil and chaos than most real world religions would allow. And a big difference is that the deities themselves have a more direct role in their own sects; at the very least because a cleric or paladin must be in good standing with their deity to have any access to divine power. Reality is often more confusing. And that is really the crux of this whole discussion. A LG cleric or paladin would be a paragon of their religion and alignment. And that would always command their first loyalty, their first oaths. Even if one became a knight of the realm, that knighthood is contingent on the lord being worthy of their service. Their deity is always the higher calling. And a LG deity would pointedly NOT allow service to an evil cause, no matter what laws were in force to abet that cause.
I beg to differ. I don't even know which church you are refering to, so how can I be hostile against it? I just refuse to take anything at face value. And that is why you and I have a different mindset. You are so set on proving me wrong, that you are grasping at anything which might make a difference - even a religion which has no connection to the religion in Ferun. I just pointed out that not all light equals good, nor does all black equals evil, what's wrong with that?
Now I wonder, I did ask you and others a few questions. For example did I ask you to read the description of lawful good. You answered ".... good government...", what about the example of a stern but forthright minister of justice? As mentioned before, he might follow a religion, but he is neither cleric, priest, knight, or paladin but still, he is lawful good. Maybe the lawful comes from his profession to uphold the law, since he is the minister of justice? Why do you ignore the points you can't rebuke, can't you at least for the sake of a good arguement consider them?
"And a big difference is that the deities themselves have a more direct role in their own sects; at the very least because a cleric or paladin must be in good standing with their deity to have any access to divine power."
Yes, that is exactly what I said: If said paladin doesn't balance the mudane with the devine, if he favours the mudane in spite of his diety, then he will be cast out. He will be named fallen Paladin and not only will he not be able to rely on his divine power anymore, he might even recieve divine punishment in form of an Order to capture him. So do I take this as indirect nod that you at least partly agree with my assessment?
"Reality is often more confusing." hm, then again, which reality are you refering to?
"Their deity is always the higher calling. And a LG deity would pointedly NOT allow service to an evil cause, no matter what laws were in force to abet that cause. "
Well, in that case you would have a zealous Paladin, but then again, you refuse to accept that there a people out there who think that their percieved law of the god(s) is final, and any action against it must be punished on the spot.
As I pointed out, since a Paladin did swear both oaths to follow the mudane law and the codex of the devine, he might not face a conflict at all, since the law he agreed on will, as foundation at least, protect every citizen which is also the whole point in following the codex. As long as he balances both "worlds" out, he will be the force to drive evil away, because he will uphold the law to protect the citizens, and the laws he agreed on would be percieved by him as just. Since the codex, on a fundamental basis, is also been chosen to protect the people, you have both in a close alignment so to speak both law and codex strife for the same goal. Even then we speak of mankind, and no human is by definition without flaw. Even the best laws and the most holy of codex might not help, if the one responsible is blinded by ignorance. So would you please refrain to tag a paladin as unfailable, that he would never do something which might in review been an act of evil?
If my divisions aren't correct, why do the magi of the circle in BG2 tell me not to cast spells in the city - while the soldiers stand around and do nothing? If you follow their advice, you will enter the mudane court, and what will they say who is responsible for a licence to use magic? Why aren't the soldiers interfering with a public execution of a wicked soul? Ready to burn her on the stake, even though building a pyre takes a lot of time. As you can see above, the Order of the Radiant Hearts has sworn to uphold the law, why whould Amoen be an exception? They cleary stated the coexistence of Clerics, Knights and Paladins in the Order, and that should give you a hint that my reasoning isn't too far off. Besides, nobody but Amoen will know what he will do.
@RazaDelrom - You're looking at just one city and saying that it applies to all of Faerun. In Baldur's Gate, there were no mages who were going to stop you from casting spells. In Athkatla it happens because the whole country is terrified of magic and the Cowled Wizards, in the game's lore, have used that fear to place a monopoly upon all magic in the city. It's not an example of things working as they're supposed to--it's an exceptional case. It doesn't happen ANYWHERE outside of Athkatla in game. Granted, there are other places in Faerun where a group of mages more or less control all practitioners (the War Wizards sort of do in Cormyr, the Red Wizards definitely do in Thay, the Cloaks do in Mulmaster, etc.), but it's not something that generally happens outside of very structured and/or oppressive countries.
As for Viconia, those are clerics of a Chaotic Evil deity who are burning her. It's not some sort of divinely sanctioned execution, and I do think that having Keldorn view a Beshaban mob lynching as "justice" was an extremely problematic decision on the writers' part. There's no intervention, presumably not because the government has sanctioned it, but because the soldiers are all horribly corrupt and nobody cares. Athkatla does a terrible job at protecting people who are disenfranchised, and its legal system doesn't work in the first place (see: their inability to do anything about Imoen, the cursory investigation of Saerk, Nalia's problems, etc.). This is NOT an example of a system working as intended.
That said, yes, the Order of the Radiant Heart would generally uphold the law. At least if they thought the laws were just. There's probably a significant amount of debate within the Order as to what is and isn't just, because there's a strong tradition of legal scholarship going on within the Church of Tyr. Actually, the Church of Tyr is a pretty good example of what a Lawful Good paladinic church actually is, because it's really the most lawful good of them all. And it DOESN'T uphold laws just because they're laws. They canonically will not enforce a law that can be shown to be unjust. While they'll uphold unfair laws that are otherwise just, they'll do everything in their power within the system to change the laws.
And this is, of course, the church that most cares about mundane laws, and one of the harshest of the good aligned ones. While all paladins should be following laws that don't actually interfere with their personal belief systems, the ones whose gods aren't as interested in law (those NG religions), probably aren't going to care quite as much.
On your sidenote: Which church is a lawful-good organisation? I think there are over 300 churches and cults out there. And virtually every church in medivial times did a lot of things which you would not like in this day and age. For example the Inquisistion, the selling of "indulgentia" or the witchhunts. Didn't you say that a LG organisation would never without a good reason strike the wicked? Apperently all the reason was needed, was someone pointing ans shouting "witch!".
Actually, he didn't identify any church as lawful good, just that "the church" as a concept is a lawful institution. This is true for all but the most obscure of cults. It's hard to be a religion without some codified set of laws and a definition of what constitutes accepted behavior. The early Christian church, which you are specifically citing, had many evil behaviors, but they were all within the laws of that church.
Going back to the point repeatedly made in this thread - lawful doesn't mean beholden to the laws of a particular country. Most churches have their own set of laws and expect their congregations to follow those laws first, then the law of the land, or even to rebel against the law of the land if it conflicts with the church's teachings. One example of this would be gay marriage, despite being a law of the land in some states or countries, many churches still teach that it is forbidden, and expect their followers to agree.
Amoens quest shows, that the cleric seeks knighthood as a stepstone to become a Paladin. What is a knight, if he swears no oath to protect his country and it's laws? He would just be a soldier or mercenary.
In many D&D settings, there are orders of knights that are not beholden to any nation. They are knights because they are warriors who swore oaths, not because they swore oaths to a lord or king. Take the Knights of the Shield in Forgotten Realms, or the Hellknights in Pathfinder. The Most Noble Order of the Radiant Heart believes in order and civilization, certainly, but they are present in Athkatla not because they serve Amn, but because they work to fight corruption within it and defend its people from brigands and monsters.
@Schneudend Landless knights, sometimes also called rounin? Yes they do exist. Usually knights who lost their land and were forced to leave, or when their lord meet an intimely death. I do agree that these folks don't have any responsibility regarding the land, and therefore the focus for them will be elsewhere. Logical, since they are not bound by any laws for their land they can follow their own devices, which might or might not include a deity. Since they do just that, I can hardly picture a lawful good landless knight, simly because living on the road usually isn't an easy life.
@Time4Tiddy And here is the point where we will not find an agreement. For some people, any agreement between two ore more people automatically becomes a law, or a code of conduct - the "unwritten law". And since it's a law or rule, which isn't in the book of laws, my reasoning must be false, or so you claim.
I can't name a single society which could function without setting up rules first, and these rules become customs and laws. If you follow them, you will be seen as law abiding citizen, and if you break the rules, you will be seen as criminal or outcast. Up to this point no one complains. But as soon as replace law abiding with lawful people, all hell breaks loose in this thread Since atcDave didn't answer, would you be so kind and tell my why a "stern but forthright minister of justice" isn't lawful good? Is it, because he is neither cleric, paladin or knight? Is it because I claim that lawful isn't a profession but a measurement how the society as a whole body sees the action of one who perform an action? The reaction to the action so to speak?
I certainly agree with you that not every single place in ferun has the same laws, I did even name Luskan as one example, where the laws are quite different. But that is exactly the point. I can't picture a paladin walking in peace on the streets of Luskan, I even imagine that their order, and all "the people who like to push people around in the name of good" are at least frowned upon, if not even illegal. Can you really imagine that the shadow government actually allows the order of the radiant hearts to setup a base or temple? If they gain support, that would be less power for the Towers, and they want all the power they can get. The reason why I choose Luskan was to show that alignment is not how oneself or the own peers percieve their actions, it's how the mayority of society percieves them. And the fundation of a society are the laws and customs. Another long and tedious circle is finished.
@Rhaella I really like your insight, but I still fail to see why you can't acknowledge that people who abide the law are lawful people. Does it really have anything to do with paladins or the church or a gnomes idea of undergarnments?
By the way: While playing BG2 I even found a reference about Amoens mentor. It is said, that he guided a lot of knights-to-be. No one else then Keldorn Firecam. Why would a Paladin and Inquisitor to boost mentor a cleric, so he can become a knight, a member of the order of radiant hearts? I still didn't get an answer out of Amoen even though I threatened him to listen to Garrick for 7 days in a row, but I still suspect that he wants to become a knight and then follow in his mentors footsteps.
@Schneudend Landless knights, sometimes also called rounin? Yes they do exist. Usually knights who lost their land and were forced to leave, or when their lord meet an intimely death. I do agree that these folks don't have any responsibility regarding the land, and therefore the focus for them will be elsewhere. Logical, since they are not bound by any laws for their land they can follow their own devices, which might or might not include a deity. Since they do just that, I can hardly picture a lawful good landless knight, simly because living on the road usually isn't an easy life.
Ronin are samurai that had a lord they served but, for whatever reason, no longer have such a master. That's not what I was describing at all. Groups like the Knights of the Shield and Hellknights never served a lord to begin with. They aren't landless. The Knights of the Shield is a secret society with bases all over the place. The Hellknights have forts in their home nation of Cheliax (where they were founded, they don't serve Cheliax's government directly) as well as within the borders of many others. They swore oaths to a cause, to principles, rather than men or nations.
Those two aren't necessarily LG organizations, but the Order of the Radiant Heart is. They aren't landless, either. Their headquarters is a big, fortified building you can literally visit in-game.
Am I the only one that doesn't like how this thread turned into debating real life religion?
THIS IS A VIDEO GAME, NOT REAL LIFE!!!
Stop talking about Christianity and go back to talking about alignments in the D&D lore.
The narrow alignment definitions in D&D wouldn't even apply to real life because most humans probably change their behaviour every hour.
Actually, people don't change, generally, not enough that their alignment would change at least. Alignment is cosmic. No one decision immediately changes something so significant, unless you went from being a kindly philanthropist to a serial killer in the span of a day or something.
Lawful people are generally prudes and in some cases justify their lawful side to be downright hostile to unlawful types. Keldorn for example has a bone to pick with both Viconia and Edwin, and will outright declare that he'll kill them both for being evil, even though they really didn't care much for him one way or the other.
Another example is how Anomen, being lawful neutral, is just a general jerk and prude through and through, and is outright verbally abusive towards other party members, to the point of yelling insults.
Edwin, being Lawful Evil, is kind of a jerk, but the funny kind of jerk. Honestly, I don't even consider him lawful, though he's a lot more of the "subtly follow than lead" type, and generally talks more than he delivers on any threats (his threats are mostly in retaliation to begin with, excluding the bits he has where he gets annoyed and swears that he'll wait until the group is sleeping and then "BLAM! Fireball!").
So yeah, lawful people are jerks, and Lawful Good people are "holier than thou" jerks. I mostly RP Neutral Good, that way I'm not labeled a prude.
@GamingFreak Being rude has nothing to do with alignment. Kivan is Chaotic Good, and he's a total asshole. Viconia's a complete bitch to just about everybody Korgan tells everybody to shut up. None of them are Lawful.
@Schneudend Landless knights, sometimes also called rounin? Yes they do exist. Usually knights who lost their land and were forced to leave, or when their lord meet an intimely death. I do agree that these folks don't have any responsibility regarding the land, and therefore the focus for them will be elsewhere. Logical, since they are not bound by any laws for their land they can follow their own devices, which might or might not include a deity. Since they do just that, I can hardly picture a lawful good landless knight, simly because living on the road usually isn't an easy life.
Ronin are samurai that had a lord they served but, for whatever reason, no longer have such a master. That's not what I was describing at all. Groups like the Knights of the Shield and Hellknights never served a lord to begin with. They aren't landless. The Knights of the Shield is a secret society with bases all over the place. The Hellknights have forts in their home nation of Cheliax (where they were founded, they don't serve Cheliax's government directly) as well as within the borders of many others. They swore oaths to a cause, to principles, rather than men or nations.
Those two aren't necessarily LG organizations, but the Order of the Radiant Heart is. They aren't landless, either. Their headquarters is a big, fortified building you can literally visit in-game.
Never heard of them, maybe because they are a secret society? But that's beside the point. Why are they a secret society? Are they forbidden to move openly? Are they in conflict with the law, and since you already included it: If they are not an lawful good organization, why are they in this thread?
Instead of bringing in even more and more different groups, why not simply try to answer one of the questions you like to ignore?
Is it so difficult to answer why a "stern but forthright minister of justice" is, in your eyes, not one of the lawful good people?
Is it so difficult to answer why a "stern but forthright minister of justice" is, in your eyes, not one of the lawful good people?
I haven't ignored any questions. This is the first I've been asked. I never suggested a forthright minister of justice could not be Lawful Good.
So, allow me to answer the question. I would say that a "stern but forthright minister of justice" is Lawful Good. Though, this isn't necessarily because his job is based on the law so much as he has chosen to use the law, which is at its core a code of conduct or structure, to help others, and believes that structure and order are integral parts of a Good and prosperous society.
@Rhaella I really like your insight, but I still fail to see why you can't acknowledge that people who abide the law are lawful people. Does it really have anything to do with paladins or the church or a gnomes idea of undergarnments?
By the way: While playing BG2 I even found a reference about Amoens mentor. It is said, that he guided a lot of knights-to-be. No one else then Keldorn Firecam. Why would a Paladin and Inquisitor to boost mentor a cleric, so he can become a knight, a member of the order of radiant hearts? I still didn't get an answer out of Amoen even though I threatened him to listen to Garrick for 7 days in a row, but I still suspect that he wants to become a knight and then follow in his mentors footsteps.
@RazaDelrom - I never said that people who abide the law aren't lawful people. (Though you can be chaotic and still be law-abiding.) I'm saying that a Lawful Good person isn't going to blindly follow a law just because it's a law. Pretty sure a paladin ending up in Thay or Zhentil Keep isn't going to fall in line just because they're lawful societies.
Keldorn isn't Anomen's mentor. He's Ajantis's mentor. I believe Ryan Trawl was Anomen's, or as close to a mentor as he got. Though I'm not sure where the confusion would be even if Keldorn *were* his mentor. Keldorn is a knight of the Radiant Heart. Anomen is a squire of the Radiant Heart. The Radiant Heart includes both paladins and clerics of Torm, Tyr, and Helm. There's no reason a paladin wouldn't be able to mentor a cleric if he wanted to.
@Schneidend Thank you, I was beginning to think that people stop reading after they reached line 5 (too much ... text, head hurts ... Enemy spell, draw weapons!).
@Rhaella Wow, we reached an agreement before we knew it! We both are aware that not only a paladin, but most people can have something called a moral conflict. Even though they abided the law up to this point, they might not report this one ruffian because there is more to his/her story, then meets the eye. But if the character generally has to decide wether to follow the laws or not, then I think he is more of a neutral sort, or even chaotic (which you might picture as free souls who always use their own moral compass to guide them). If he has to be convinced first, while they already begin to drag them to the guard station, then they are more LG (even though they might just let it slide, too - because of extraordinary circumstances).
I got this from an online source regarding Keldorn:
"His long service has made him an experienced, wise character and he may act as a father figure. He has guided many knights-to-be, including Ajantis Ilvarstarr and he is currently guiding Anomen Delryn.
In general, he can get along with good aligned and neutral aligned characters, with the exception for Nalia de'Arnise. At the start, his relations with Anomen Delryn are strained, but if he manages to get knighted, he and Keldorn get more cordial. His relations with evil aligned characters are rather hostile, he may even come to blows with some of them. "
Since he is a character who is only found in game lore, it's difficult to verify, unlike for example Drizzt (regrettfully, I only read 3 books so far).
@the_spyder I wonder if you actually did read your own statement. You seem to disagree, then give an example which actually supports my claim: "The Order of the Radiant Heart is a fraternity of lawful good paladins and clerics that operates throughout Faerûn. Members of the order devote themselves to fighting evil and injustice, maintaining peace and upholding the law. The Order has followers of many goodly deities in its ranks, but the knights of the Order mainly venerate the gods Torm, Tyr and Helm. The Order's motto is: "The courage of one can change the destiny of many" " So what was it again, Amoen doesn't want to be knighted, doesn't want to be a Paladin? Either way, if he wants to join the Order of Radiant Hearts, then he will swear to uphold the law. Bingo a lawful good character who want to join a lawful good organisation.
So to start off with, I never said Anomen didn't want to be a knight. I asked YOU where you thought it said he did. But even if he does, (a) that is one single example, and one outlier does not prove the entire argument. and (b) There may be many, MANY paths towards a given goal.
Finally, (c) The Radiant heart may be interested in following 'The law', but Who's law? Keldorn is not a deputized member of the city watch. he himself will speak out openly against the Cowled wizards (an offense with clearly breaks the law) and he hunts down and kills citizens of the city without judge or jury and plays executioner with no legal authority to do so. According to your way of seeing things, he is not a Lawful good, nor could he possibly be a Paladin or a member of The Radiant heart. Yet clearly he is and should be. Interesting how the Radiant heart flaunts 'The law', isn't it?
In short, No. Not every member of the Radiant Heart are aspiring Paladins. And just because the Radiant Heart are a Moral institution who support and uphold a system of Laws, these are not "Necessarily" the laws of the land or the city. Anomen's personal quest does not prove that all Paladins follow his path (nor even most). And his own personal ethics speak not to the creation of a Paladin, but the evolution of a single individual character.
Another example for a lawful-good character was provided in the description of lawful good in the character screen: "a sterm but forthright minister of justice". No Paladin, No Cleric, no Order, no deity involved, and still LG. Funny, huh?
I don't understand your example here at all. Again, please see my comment above. Someone can EASILY be a proponent of Justice and law and not in any way support the Current administration. Also, one can have a code of rules (read "Laws") and justice implemented by their order or by their Deity which directly contravenes the laws of the land.
Also, I don't have my 2E books anymore, but I know for a fact that Clerics are required to worship a Deity (or Deities) in order to cast spells. I also know that, although it isn't 'Required' that all paladins follow a Deity, I want to say that it is heavily implied in various rule books that 99% of them do. And I know that it does say in the rules that they MUST be devoted to a cause, usually a religion, Deity or Order. That is where their power comes from. So, yeah. Funny that they actually have to be part of some form of organized organization with it's own rules and laws.
But since you are still telling me, that I misunderstand lawful alignment, why don't you answer my question about a lawful good thief?
I don't mind if you hold your Paladins in high esteem, but please don't make all lawful-good people shallow.
I am not sure what example you are using about a Lawful good thief? According to the rules, you can't play a lawful good thief. It is a prohibited alignment.
However, a Lawful Neutral thief, or better yet a Lawful Evil thief, will easily ignore or break any law they so choose. As will a Lawful evil Blackguard in the service of some Deity who personifies murder or theft or other 'Evil' spheres. There is no conflict. These "Lawful" beings will follow the code of their order. They don't give a whit about 'The law' yet still remain lawful in alignment.
On your sidenote: Which church is a lawful-good organisation? I think there are over 300 churches and cults out there. And virtually every church in medivial times did a lot of things which you would not like in this day and age. For example the Inquisistion, the selling of "indulgentia" or the witchhunts. Didn't you say that a LG organisation would never without a good reason strike the wicked? Apperently all the reason was needed, was someone pointing ans shouting "witch!".
The problem with using real life examples (of which I admit to being guilty) is that the absolutes of good and evil do not exist as much in real life as they do in the game world. People, individuals and circumstances all can lead to less than 'good' choices in otherwise good people and organizations. I am not going to defend any one given religion as "Good" but there is no way you can argue that they aren't Lawful institutions. And further that they will often times have "Laws" which directly contravene the laws of the land.
A lawful good Paladin will in my point of view abide the laws of a foreign country, or choose not to set a step into it. I can't picture a Paladin surviving long in places like Luskan, unless he bows to the will of the towers that is.
which is basically the underlying flaw in your way of seeing a Paladin. You want to put them in some paper thin, shallow, cartoonish single way of seeing the world. Paladins can't afford to compromise their ideals based on the whim of changing governments. They can't 'Not' go somewhere merely because the laws of the land are not convenient or to their liking, nor would they violate their oaths based on those arbitrary rules. Heck, even governments can change. What then? What if the new King decided that Slavery was all of the sudden legal? I'd be interested in your argument wherein a Paladin would all of the sudden own slaves.
@the_spyder I wonder if you actually did read your own statement. You seem to disagree, then give an example which actually supports my claim: "The Order of the Radiant Heart is a fraternity of lawful good paladins and clerics that operates throughout Faerûn. Members of the order devote themselves to fighting evil and injustice, maintaining peace and upholding the law. The Order has followers of many goodly deities in its ranks, but the knights of the Order mainly venerate the gods Torm, Tyr and Helm. The Order's motto is: "The courage of one can change the destiny of many" " So what was it again, Amoen doesn't want to be knighted, doesn't want to be a Paladin? Either way, if he wants to join the Order of Radiant Hearts, then he will swear to uphold the law. Bingo a lawful good character who want to join a lawful good organisation.
So to start off with, I never said Anomen didn't want to be a knight. I asked YOU where you thought it said he did. But even if he does, (a) that is one single example, and one outlier does not prove the entire argument. and (b) There may be many, MANY paths towards a given goal.
Finally, (c) The Radiant heart may be interested in following 'The law', but Who's law? Keldorn is not a deputized member of the city watch. he himself will speak out openly against the Cowled wizards (an offense with clearly breaks the law) and he hunts down and kills citizens of the city without judge or jury and plays executioner with no legal authority to do so. According to your way of seeing things, he is not a Lawful good, nor could he possibly be a Paladin or a member of The Radiant heart. Yet clearly he is and should be. Interesting how the Radiant heart flaunts 'The law', isn't it?
In short, No. Not every member of the Radiant Heart are aspiring Paladins. And just because the Radiant Heart are a Moral institution who support and uphold a system of Laws, these are not "Necessarily" the laws of the land or the city. Anomen's personal quest does not prove that all Paladins follow his path (nor even most). And his own personal ethics speak not to the creation of a Paladin, but the evolution of a single individual character.
Another example for a lawful-good character was provided in the description of lawful good in the character screen: "a sterm but forthright minister of justice". No Paladin, No Cleric, no Order, no deity involved, and still LG. Funny, huh?
I don't understand your example here at all. Again, please see my comment above. Someone can EASILY be a proponent of Justice and law and not in any way support the Current administration. Also, one can have a code of rules (read "Laws") and justice implemented by their order or by their Deity which directly contravenes the laws of the land.
Also, I don't have my 2E books anymore, but I know for a fact that Clerics are required to worship a Deity (or Deities) in order to cast spells. I also know that, although it isn't 'Required' that all paladins follow a Deity, I want to say that it is heavily implied in various rule books that 99% of them do. And I know that it does say in the rules that they MUST be devoted to a cause, usually a religion, Deity or Order. That is where their power comes from. So, yeah. Funny that they actually have to be part of some form of organized organization with it's own rules and laws.
But since you are still telling me, that I misunderstand lawful alignment, why don't you answer my question about a lawful good thief?
I don't mind if you hold your Paladins in high esteem, but please don't make all lawful-good people shallow.
I am not sure what example you are using about a Lawful good thief? According to the rules, you can't play a lawful good thief. It is a prohibited alignment.
However, a Lawful Neutral thief, or better yet a Lawful Evil thief, will easily ignore or break any law they so choose. As will a Lawful evil Blackguard in the service of some Deity who personifies murder or theft or other 'Evil' spheres. There is no conflict. These "Lawful" beings will follow the code of their order. They don't give a whit about 'The law' yet still remain lawful in alignment.
On your sidenote: Which church is a lawful-good organisation? I think there are over 300 churches and cults out there. And virtually every church in medivial times did a lot of things which you would not like in this day and age. For example the Inquisistion, the selling of "indulgentia" or the witchhunts. Didn't you say that a LG organisation would never without a good reason strike the wicked? Apperently all the reason was needed, was someone pointing ans shouting "witch!".
The problem with using real life examples (of which I admit to being guilty) is that the absolutes of good and evil do not exist as much in real life as they do in the game world. People, individuals and circumstances all can lead to less than 'good' choices in otherwise good people and organizations. I am not going to defend any one given religion as "Good" but there is no way you can argue that they aren't Lawful institutions. And further that they will often times have "Laws" which directly contravene the laws of the land.
A lawful good Paladin will in my point of view abide the laws of a foreign country, or choose not to set a step into it. I can't picture a Paladin surviving long in places like Luskan, unless he bows to the will of the towers that is.
which is basically the underlying flaw in your way of seeing a Paladin. You want to put them in some paper thin, shallow, cartoonish single way of seeing the world. Paladins can't afford to compromise their ideals based on the whim of changing governments. They can't 'Not' go somewhere merely because the laws of the land are not convenient or to their liking, nor would they violate their oaths based on those arbitrary rules. Heck, even governments can change. What then? What if the new King decided that Slavery was all of the sudden legal? I'd be interested in your argument wherein a Paladin would all of the sudden own slaves.
I will make it short: I. You fail to understand that lawful good is not patented by paladins. Even someone without a deity or profession can be lawful good.
II. There are countless references that the order of the radiant hearts upholds the law in the places where they setup a temple. Refusing to accept something because you don't want to see it is well within your right.
III. Which paladin is shallow? the one who just follows the handful rules of conduct(and ignore anything which might bother him, or strike them down in the name of their god), or the one who plays part in the local government by upholding the laws, respecting the customs and still concluding the mission without neglecting his deity?
You fail to understand that the local government has a standing army and can, by law, draft countless more into a force which no single order can withstand. What would they achieve be oposing the government? Being sent to the afterlife sooner? What is the point in more bloodshed? Is that truly what your LG paladins desire?
No government will just give anyone free reign on their land. They might tolerate them to some extent (if they at least follow the local law), or show wisdom and integrate them by setting additional laws accordingly. Or worst case, send them packing.
A wise paladin will see when the cause is lost, a zealous paladin will not.
I will make it short: I. You fail to understand that lawful good is not patented by paladins. Even someone without a deity or profession can be lawful good.
No one at all is saying it is patented to Paladins.
II. There are countless references that the order of the radiant hearts upholds the law in the places where they setup a temple. Refusing to exept something because you don't want to see it is well within your right.
Wait, what? I asked "Who's" law? I never said they don't uphold the laws. I was saying "They uphold their OWN laws, not necessarily the laws of the land." And do you have any idea who is in charge of Athkatla? They are not Exactly 'Lawful Good types".
III. Which paladin is shallow? the one who just follows the handful rules of conduct(and ignore anything which might bother him, or strike them down in the name of their god), or the one who plays part in the local government by upholding the laws, respecting the customs and still concluding the mission without neglecting his deity?
the paladin that falls every time a new Leader moves into power. The one that refuses to go somewhere because the laws there might be different and not comfortable for them to follow. The ones that follow the letter of the law regardless of if there is justice or fairness involved. That is the paper thin "Lawful good".
You fail to understand that the local government has a standing army and can, by law, draft countless more into a force which no single order can withstand. Why would they achieve be oposing the government? Being sent to the afterlife sooner? What whould that archieve, beside more bloodshed? Is that truly what your LG paladins desire?
Wait, what? Weren't you the one saying that a Paladin in the Underdark would attack the city outright?
Besides, No one is saying that is the way a Paladin, or any Lawful good, would act. Quite the contrary. the example I gave was that Firecam violates the law of the land all the time. How do you reconcile that with your shallow "I will follow the law in all it's forms, regardless of how smart or just that is, BECAUSE i AM LAWFUL!"
No government will just give anyone free reign on their land. They might tolerate them to some extent (if they at least follow the local law), or show wisdom and integrate them by setting additional laws accordingly. Or worst case, send them packing.
Have you EVER read anything about the Roman Catholic Church? or about the Muslim Church? Or The KKK? Or the LGB community? Or the United States of America? All examples that directly contradict the above statement. All communities that have in some way caused, or been caused to, change and modify their approach, not because they bowed to the law, but because they had a different approach and caused the government (or were caused AS the government) to alter their approach. I make no value judgement about any of the organizations, merely that they directly contradict your comment.
@the_spyder I refuse to further discuss this issue with you. If you actually had read the thread carefully, you would already have seen the agreement of everybody in here not to drag our wordly religion in it. Besides, you already have your answers, just readup.
III. Which paladin is shallow? the one who just follows the handful rules of conduct(and ignore anything which might bother him, or strike them down in the name of their god), or the one who plays part in the local government by upholding the laws, respecting the customs and still concluding the mission without neglecting his deity?
I just wanted to touch base on this again. Who says that the Paladin (or indeed any Lawful Good) code of conduct is "A handful of rules of conduct". Not to fall victim of 'Irl' examples again, but have you ever read The Bible? Or the Koran? These are hardly "A handful of rules of conduct". Or how about the Knights of Columbus with 1.8 million members and 15,000 councils?
And 'Plays a part in local government?' You mean Like Darth Vader? That's it. Darth Vader is a Paladin. Let's see. He upholds the law. He provides "Order" to the galaxy. He is very important to the Government. He must be a Paladin.
Wow, this is a long thread for such a small question. I don't even understand the need to use a Paladin here at all, but w/e.
While I read through all of this, maybe we should start with the rulebook?
"Most paladins serve actual gods, though a few act as champions of a primordial, demon, or devil though in the latter two cases they must commit atrocities such as the sacrifice of sapients in order to retain their powers. All paladins, regardless of whom they serve and how they act, are expected to serve as sworn defenders of the faithful, smiting the unholy."
Reference: Player's Handbook 4th edition, p. 90. Wizards of the Coast. ISBN 0-7869-4867-1
So yes, the Paladin comes in all forms and, different from the rules applied in BG, in all alignments. The only limitation is that the Paladin has the exact alignment of it's deity. And not all of them are LG.
I don't know where you come from, but down here we have a hard time believing that someone who is bound by a rigid codex to smite the unholy is not a zealot, especially if the deity decides for her, who the unholy creature is. Actually the Chaotic Good Paladins are the moderate ones, the ones you would like to have in the neighborhood.
Am I the only one that doesn't like how this thread turned into debating real life religion?
THIS IS A VIDEO GAME, NOT REAL LIFE!!!
Stop talking about Christianity and go back to talking about alignments in the D&D lore.
The narrow alignment definitions in D&D wouldn't even apply to real life because most humans probably change their behaviour every hour.
The problem is, AD&D is inspired by medieval European history, mythology and folklore. Throw in some classic mythology, some Tolkien and a few other more modern sources. But it starts with medieval European. Which means much of the precedent we can site is going to come from that era. Its a little tough to discuss Paladins in particular without Arthurian, Carolingian and Holy Orders (Templars, Hospitalars, and Teutons) being a part of the discussion.
Now I do, in principle, agree that Christianity should have no place in a magical fantasy discussion. Too many conflicts, and too much potential for causing offence (both from adherents and detractors!). That's why, when I DM in my very historically themed setting, I use Classic Greco-Roman Mythology as the starting point for belief systems and morals. But even so, in talking about things with a medieval European style or atmosphere; you can't avoid the actual medieval inspirations entirely!
BTW, Spyder, just an excellent job making your case. If I remember correctly, you rarely actually play LG yourself? So I'm doubly impressed.
Am I the only one that doesn't like how this thread turned into debating real life religion?
THIS IS A VIDEO GAME, NOT REAL LIFE!!!
Stop talking about Christianity and go back to talking about alignments in the D&D lore.
The narrow alignment definitions in D&D wouldn't even apply to real life because most humans probably change their behaviour every hour.
The problem is, AD&D is inspired by medieval European history, mythology and folklore. Throw in some classic mythology, some Tolkien and a few other more modern sources. But it starts with medieval European. Which means much of the precedent we can site is going to come from that era. Its a little tough to discuss Paladins in particular without Arthurian, Carolingian and Holy Orders (Templars, Hospitalars, and Teutons) being a part of the discussion.
Now I do, in principle, agree that Christianity should have no place in a magical fantasy discussion. Too many conflicts, and too much potential for causing offence (both from adherents and detractors!). That's why, when I DM in my very historically themed setting, I use Classic Greco-Roman Mythology as the starting point for belief systems and morals. But even so, in talking about things with a medieval European style or atmosphere; you can't avoid the actual medieval inspirations entirely!
BTW, Spyder, just an excellent job making your case. If I remember correctly, you rarely actually play LG yourself? So I'm doubly impressed.
Do you honesty believe we should discuss the KKK in this thread?
And since you are so impressed, please tell us what point that was.
@Teleron - The discussion was primarily around Lawful Good. The inclusion of 'Paladin' as an example, merely a focal point and nothing more. It is a shame that so many of these types of discussions fall back on the that archetype when just about any LG character should have some leanings. but it does end up being the character class that most associate with the alignment.
Yes, as I understand it 4E opened the doors for non goodly aligned Paladins. I kind of get the reasons why, so that every military-focused Deity would have their own special warrior. "For me", I hold on to the classic Advanced - 2E Paladins that are required to be Lawful good, on the rare occasion when I have reason to consider or indeed play one. But it is good to know that, regardless of alignment, they are still held to some form of Order. That at least keeps "Me" in my comfort zone.
@atcDave. Thanks very much. And you are right. I don't generally play a Paladin, or indeed a Goodly type. But I do enjoy the challenge of the discussion. I just hope and try to keep things topic specific and not personal. I did try and avoid falling a-foul of Godwin's law as I so often do.
Wow, this is a long thread for such a small question. I don't even understand the need to use a Paladin here at all, but w/e.
While I read through all of this, maybe we should start with the rulebook?
"Most paladins serve actual gods, though a few act as champions of a primordial, demon, or devil though in the latter two cases they must commit atrocities such as the sacrifice of sapients in order to retain their powers. All paladins, regardless of whom they serve and how they act, are expected to serve as sworn defenders of the faithful, smiting the unholy."
Reference: Player's Handbook 4th edition, p. 90. Wizards of the Coast. ISBN 0-7869-4867-1
So yes, the Paladin comes in all forms and, different from the rules applied in BG, in all alignments. The only limitation is that the Paladin has the exact alignment of it's deity. And not all of them are LG.
I don't know where you come from, but down here we have a hard time believing that someone who is bound by a rigid codex to smite the unholy is not a zealot, especially if the deity decides for her, who the unholy creature is. Actually the Chaotic Good Paladins are the moderate ones, the ones you would like to have in the neighborhood.
Paladin was made more general when it came to alignment in 4E for the sake of simplicity and making the class more attractive to more players, because 4E wasn't going to have the prestige classes and alternative base classes and such that 3E did to model the religious champions of other alignments. In most instances, per a given setting a 4E Paladin is not actually a Paladin in the game world, he'd be called something else if he were Unaligned, Evil, or especially Chaotic Evil. I think that's an important distinction.
And, no, I don't see a Chaotic Good Paladin as any less zealous than LG. In fact, the CG Paladin scares me more because he's not beholden to any sort of system beyond his deity. No chivalry, no going through proper government channels, just violence against Evil as soon as they identify it. To me, somebody with elite martial training, holy powers, and no accountability to any code of conduct is dangerous. Give me an LG Paladin order in my community any day. Less risk of a gang war between the gung-ho CGs and the local gangs spilling into the streets.
Comments
Also, the rule of thumb for paladins is "value goodness over lawfulness if the two conflict" since you're not powered by the laws of the land, but rather by the rules of your God.
(Now if only I could figure out how to make a Paladin kit called the Templar that's Lawful Neutral and then balance it properly...)
One final note. It is possible to believe in the necessity of laws and the importance of a just government without liking or supporting the current administration. Not only is that highly possible, it is extremely probable. Particularly if the government is not just or good. A Paladin in a Drow city would think nothing at all of the laws of the land as they are cruel and unjust. The same is true in Rashaman and probably in Calimport, just to name a very few places in Faerun. Thus supporting the argument that although there is a correlation in that a Paladin's order rules may parallel Goodly governments, this is not a requirement.
Heck, if you look at the real world today, you can easily see that the Church, which is a Lawful institution, clashes with local government so often that there has to be a division of Church and state as part of Society.
Plus, if it were true that a Paladin would blindly support laws, what is a paladin to do if they move from one country where something is illegal and steps over the boarder to another country where that same thing is a mandatory legal action? Believing in the rule of law does NOT mean they blindly follow all laws.
Anomen isn't swearing an oath to his country. He's swearing an oath to his ORDER. He isn't beholden to Amn (which is a technicality away from Lawful Evil anyway), but to the Radiant Heart and their gods.
Being a member of a holy order is VERY different than being a soldier or mercenary.
Granted, some paladins will end up swearing oaths and serving their countries instead of a holy order. It happens all the time in Cormyr. I also believe it's required in Tethyr that holy orders need to swear an oath to the crown as well, but they're LG and can get away with that sort of requirement without pissing off the churches. Faerun isn't that nice of a place, really. Half of it is ridiculously despotic.
And these divisions don't really exist either. Knights of holy orders deal with the divine, clerics and paladins of Mystra deal with the arcane as much as mages would, and the Church of Tyr is sure as hell going to be dealing with the mundane.
I wonder if you actually did read your own statement. You seem to disagree, then give an example which actually supports my claim:
"The Order of the Radiant Heart is a fraternity of lawful good paladins and clerics that operates throughout Faerûn. Members of the order devote themselves to fighting evil and injustice, maintaining peace and upholding the law. The Order has followers of many goodly deities in its ranks, but the knights of the Order mainly venerate the gods Torm, Tyr and Helm. The Order's motto is: "The courage of one can change the destiny of many" "
So what was it again, Amoen doesn't want to be knighted, doesn't want to be a Paladin? Either way, if he wants to join the Order of Radiant Hearts, then he will swear to uphold the law. Bingo a lawful good character who want to join a lawful good organisation.
Another example for a lawful-good character was provided in the description of lawful good in the character screen: "a sterm but forthright minister of justice". No Paladin, No Cleric, no Order, no deity involved, and still LG. Funny, huh?
But since you are still telling me, that I misunderstand lawful alignment, why don't you answer my question about a lawful good thief?
I don't mind if you hold your Paladins in high esteem, but please don't make all lawful-good people shallow.
On your sidenote: Which church is a lawful-good organisation? I think there are over 300 churches and cults out there. And virtually every church in medivial times did a lot of things which you would not like in this day and age. For example the Inquisistion, the selling of "indulgentia" or the witchhunts. Didn't you say that a LG organisation would never without a good reason strike the wicked? Apperently all the reason was needed, was someone pointing ans shouting "witch!".
A lawful good Paladin will in my point of view abide the laws of a foreign country, or choose not to set a step into it. I can't picture a Paladin surviving long in places like Luskan, unless he bows to the will of the towers that is.
@Rhaella
If my divisions aren't correct, why do the magi of the circle in BG2 tell me not to cast spells in the city - while the soldiers stand around and do nothing? If you follow their advice, you will enter the mudane court, and what will they say who is responsible for a licence to use magic? Why aren't the soldiers interfering with a public execution of a wicked soul? Ready to burn her on the stake, even though building a pyre takes a lot of time.
As you can see above, the Order of the Radiant Hearts has sworn to uphold the law, why whould Amoen be an exception? They cleary stated the coexistence of Clerics, Knights and Paladins in the Order, and that should give you a hint that my reasoning isn't too far off. Besides, nobody but Amoen will know what he will do.
RazaDelrom you hold much hostility towards the church that is coloring your judgement on this. Like it or not, the local church or religion defines the basis of right and wrong across most of the world, throughout history. Atheist states are a modern invention.
It is true of course, that every religion, every church, is a flawed human institution. In a fantasy setting like the Forgotten Realms, the broad variety of faiths actually provide more range than reality does, and there is more legitimacy to evil and chaos than most real world religions would allow. And a big difference is that the deities themselves have a more direct role in their own sects; at the very least because a cleric or paladin must be in good standing with their deity to have any access to divine power. Reality is often more confusing.
And that is really the crux of this whole discussion. A LG cleric or paladin would be a paragon of their religion and alignment. And that would always command their first loyalty, their first oaths. Even if one became a knight of the realm, that knighthood is contingent on the lord being worthy of their service. Their deity is always the higher calling. And a LG deity would pointedly NOT allow service to an evil cause, no matter what laws were in force to abet that cause.
I beg to differ. I don't even know which church you are refering to, so how can I be hostile against it? I just refuse to take anything at face value. And that is why you and I have a different mindset. You are so set on proving me wrong, that you are grasping at anything which might make a difference - even a religion which has no connection to the religion in Ferun. I just pointed out that not all light equals good, nor does all black equals evil, what's wrong with that?
Now I wonder, I did ask you and others a few questions. For example did I ask you to read the description of lawful good. You answered ".... good government...", what about the example of a stern but forthright minister of justice? As mentioned before, he might follow a religion, but he is neither cleric, priest, knight, or paladin but still, he is lawful good. Maybe the lawful comes from his profession to uphold the law, since he is the minister of justice? Why do you ignore the points you can't rebuke, can't you at least for the sake of a good arguement consider them?
"And a big difference is that the deities themselves have a more direct role in their own sects; at the very least because a cleric or paladin must be in good standing with their deity to have any access to divine power."
Yes, that is exactly what I said: If said paladin doesn't balance the mudane with the devine, if he favours the mudane in spite of his diety, then he will be cast out. He will be named fallen Paladin and not only will he not be able to rely on his divine power anymore, he might even recieve divine punishment in form of an Order to capture him. So do I take this as indirect nod that you at least partly agree with my assessment?
"Reality is often more confusing." hm, then again, which reality are you refering to?
"Their deity is always the higher calling. And a LG deity would pointedly NOT allow service to an evil cause, no matter what laws were in force to abet that cause. "
Well, in that case you would have a zealous Paladin, but then again, you refuse to accept that there a people out there who think that their percieved law of the god(s) is final, and any action against it must be punished on the spot.
As I pointed out, since a Paladin did swear both oaths to follow the mudane law and the codex of the devine, he might not face a conflict at all, since the law he agreed on will, as foundation at least, protect every citizen which is also the whole point in following the codex. As long as he balances both "worlds" out, he will be the force to drive evil away, because he will uphold the law to protect the citizens, and the laws he agreed on would be percieved by him as just. Since the codex, on a fundamental basis, is also been chosen to protect the people, you have both in a close alignment so to speak both law and codex strife for the same goal.
Even then we speak of mankind, and no human is by definition without flaw. Even the best laws and the most holy of codex might not help, if the one responsible is blinded by ignorance. So would you please refrain to tag a paladin as unfailable, that he would never do something which might in review been an act of evil?
As for Viconia, those are clerics of a Chaotic Evil deity who are burning her. It's not some sort of divinely sanctioned execution, and I do think that having Keldorn view a Beshaban mob lynching as "justice" was an extremely problematic decision on the writers' part. There's no intervention, presumably not because the government has sanctioned it, but because the soldiers are all horribly corrupt and nobody cares. Athkatla does a terrible job at protecting people who are disenfranchised, and its legal system doesn't work in the first place (see: their inability to do anything about Imoen, the cursory investigation of Saerk, Nalia's problems, etc.). This is NOT an example of a system working as intended.
That said, yes, the Order of the Radiant Heart would generally uphold the law. At least if they thought the laws were just. There's probably a significant amount of debate within the Order as to what is and isn't just, because there's a strong tradition of legal scholarship going on within the Church of Tyr. Actually, the Church of Tyr is a pretty good example of what a Lawful Good paladinic church actually is, because it's really the most lawful good of them all. And it DOESN'T uphold laws just because they're laws. They canonically will not enforce a law that can be shown to be unjust. While they'll uphold unfair laws that are otherwise just, they'll do everything in their power within the system to change the laws.
And this is, of course, the church that most cares about mundane laws, and one of the harshest of the good aligned ones. While all paladins should be following laws that don't actually interfere with their personal belief systems, the ones whose gods aren't as interested in law (those NG religions), probably aren't going to care quite as much.
Going back to the point repeatedly made in this thread - lawful doesn't mean beholden to the laws of a particular country. Most churches have their own set of laws and expect their congregations to follow those laws first, then the law of the land, or even to rebel against the law of the land if it conflicts with the church's teachings. One example of this would be gay marriage, despite being a law of the land in some states or countries, many churches still teach that it is forbidden, and expect their followers to agree.
Landless knights, sometimes also called rounin? Yes they do exist. Usually knights who lost their land and were forced to leave, or when their lord meet an intimely death. I do agree that these folks don't have any responsibility regarding the land, and therefore the focus for them will be elsewhere. Logical, since they are not bound by any laws for their land they can follow their own devices, which might or might not include a deity. Since they do just that, I can hardly picture a lawful good landless knight, simly because living on the road usually isn't an easy life.
@Time4Tiddy
And here is the point where we will not find an agreement. For some people, any agreement between two ore more people automatically becomes a law, or a code of conduct - the "unwritten law". And since it's a law or rule, which isn't in the book of laws, my reasoning must be false, or so you claim.
I can't name a single society which could function without setting up rules first, and these rules become customs and laws. If you follow them, you will be seen as law abiding citizen, and if you break the rules, you will be seen as criminal or outcast. Up to this point no one complains. But as soon as replace law abiding with lawful people, all hell breaks loose in this thread Since atcDave didn't answer, would you be so kind and tell my why a "stern but forthright minister of justice" isn't lawful good? Is it, because he is neither cleric, paladin or knight? Is it because I claim that lawful isn't a profession but a measurement how the society as a whole body sees the action of one who perform an action? The reaction to the action so to speak?
I certainly agree with you that not every single place in ferun has the same laws, I did even name Luskan as one example, where the laws are quite different. But that is exactly the point. I can't picture a paladin walking in peace on the streets of Luskan, I even imagine that their order, and all "the people who like to push people around in the name of good" are at least frowned upon, if not even illegal. Can you really imagine that the shadow government actually allows the order of the radiant hearts to setup a base or temple? If they gain support, that would be less power for the Towers, and they want all the power they can get.
The reason why I choose Luskan was to show that alignment is not how oneself or the own peers percieve their actions, it's how the mayority of society percieves them. And the fundation of a society are the laws and customs. Another long and tedious circle is finished.
@Rhaella
I really like your insight, but I still fail to see why you can't acknowledge that people who abide the law are lawful people. Does it really have anything to do with paladins or the church or a gnomes idea of undergarnments?
By the way:
While playing BG2 I even found a reference about Amoens mentor. It is said, that he guided a lot of knights-to-be. No one else then Keldorn Firecam. Why would a Paladin and Inquisitor to boost mentor a cleric, so he can become a knight, a member of the order of radiant hearts? I still didn't get an answer out of Amoen even though I threatened him to listen to Garrick for 7 days in a row, but I still suspect that he wants to become a knight and then follow in his mentors footsteps.
Those two aren't necessarily LG organizations, but the Order of the Radiant Heart is. They aren't landless, either. Their headquarters is a big, fortified building you can literally visit in-game.
THIS IS A VIDEO GAME, NOT REAL LIFE!!!
Stop talking about Christianity and go back to talking about alignments in the D&D lore.
The narrow alignment definitions in D&D wouldn't even apply to real life because most humans probably change their behaviour every hour.
Another example is how Anomen, being lawful neutral, is just a general jerk and prude through and through, and is outright verbally abusive towards other party members, to the point of yelling insults.
Edwin, being Lawful Evil, is kind of a jerk, but the funny kind of jerk. Honestly, I don't even consider him lawful, though he's a lot more of the "subtly follow than lead" type, and generally talks more than he delivers on any threats (his threats are mostly in retaliation to begin with, excluding the bits he has where he gets annoyed and swears that he'll wait until the group is sleeping and then "BLAM! Fireball!").
So yeah, lawful people are jerks, and Lawful Good people are "holier than thou" jerks. I mostly RP Neutral Good, that way I'm not labeled a prude.
Being rude has nothing to do with alignment. Kivan is Chaotic Good, and he's a total asshole. Viconia's a complete bitch to just about everybody Korgan tells everybody to shut up. None of them are Lawful.
Instead of bringing in even more and more different groups, why not simply try to answer one of the questions you like to ignore?
Is it so difficult to answer why a "stern but forthright minister of justice" is, in your eyes, not one of the lawful good people?
So, allow me to answer the question. I would say that a "stern but forthright minister of justice" is Lawful Good. Though, this isn't necessarily because his job is based on the law so much as he has chosen to use the law, which is at its core a code of conduct or structure, to help others, and believes that structure and order are integral parts of a Good and prosperous society.
Keldorn isn't Anomen's mentor. He's Ajantis's mentor. I believe Ryan Trawl was Anomen's, or as close to a mentor as he got. Though I'm not sure where the confusion would be even if Keldorn *were* his mentor. Keldorn is a knight of the Radiant Heart. Anomen is a squire of the Radiant Heart. The Radiant Heart includes both paladins and clerics of Torm, Tyr, and Helm. There's no reason a paladin wouldn't be able to mentor a cleric if he wanted to.
Thank you, I was beginning to think that people stop reading after they reached line 5 (too much ... text, head hurts ... Enemy spell, draw weapons!).
@Rhaella
Wow, we reached an agreement before we knew it!
We both are aware that not only a paladin, but most people can have something called a moral conflict. Even though they abided the law up to this point, they might not report this one ruffian because there is more to his/her story, then meets the eye. But if the character generally has to decide wether to follow the laws or not, then I think he is more of a neutral sort, or even chaotic (which you might picture as free souls who always use their own moral compass to guide them). If he has to be convinced first, while they already begin to drag them to the guard station, then they are more LG (even though they might just let it slide, too - because of extraordinary circumstances).
I got this from an online source regarding Keldorn:
"His long service has made him an experienced, wise character and he may act as a father figure. He has guided many knights-to-be, including Ajantis Ilvarstarr and he is currently guiding Anomen Delryn.
In general, he can get along with good aligned and neutral aligned characters, with the exception for Nalia de'Arnise. At the start, his relations with Anomen Delryn are strained, but if he manages to get knighted, he and Keldorn get more cordial. His relations with evil aligned characters are rather hostile, he may even come to blows with some of them. "
Since he is a character who is only found in game lore, it's difficult to verify, unlike for example Drizzt (regrettfully, I only read 3 books so far).
Finally, (c) The Radiant heart may be interested in following 'The law', but Who's law? Keldorn is not a deputized member of the city watch. he himself will speak out openly against the Cowled wizards (an offense with clearly breaks the law) and he hunts down and kills citizens of the city without judge or jury and plays executioner with no legal authority to do so. According to your way of seeing things, he is not a Lawful good, nor could he possibly be a Paladin or a member of The Radiant heart. Yet clearly he is and should be. Interesting how the Radiant heart flaunts 'The law', isn't it?
In short, No. Not every member of the Radiant Heart are aspiring Paladins. And just because the Radiant Heart are a Moral institution who support and uphold a system of Laws, these are not "Necessarily" the laws of the land or the city. Anomen's personal quest does not prove that all Paladins follow his path (nor even most). And his own personal ethics speak not to the creation of a Paladin, but the evolution of a single individual character. I don't understand your example here at all. Again, please see my comment above. Someone can EASILY be a proponent of Justice and law and not in any way support the Current administration. Also, one can have a code of rules (read "Laws") and justice implemented by their order or by their Deity which directly contravenes the laws of the land.
Also, I don't have my 2E books anymore, but I know for a fact that Clerics are required to worship a Deity (or Deities) in order to cast spells. I also know that, although it isn't 'Required' that all paladins follow a Deity, I want to say that it is heavily implied in various rule books that 99% of them do. And I know that it does say in the rules that they MUST be devoted to a cause, usually a religion, Deity or Order. That is where their power comes from. So, yeah. Funny that they actually have to be part of some form of organized organization with it's own rules and laws. I am not sure what example you are using about a Lawful good thief? According to the rules, you can't play a lawful good thief. It is a prohibited alignment.
However, a Lawful Neutral thief, or better yet a Lawful Evil thief, will easily ignore or break any law they so choose. As will a Lawful evil Blackguard in the service of some Deity who personifies murder or theft or other 'Evil' spheres. There is no conflict. These "Lawful" beings will follow the code of their order. They don't give a whit about 'The law' yet still remain lawful in alignment. The problem with using real life examples (of which I admit to being guilty) is that the absolutes of good and evil do not exist as much in real life as they do in the game world. People, individuals and circumstances all can lead to less than 'good' choices in otherwise good people and organizations. I am not going to defend any one given religion as "Good" but there is no way you can argue that they aren't Lawful institutions. And further that they will often times have "Laws" which directly contravene the laws of the land. which is basically the underlying flaw in your way of seeing a Paladin. You want to put them in some paper thin, shallow, cartoonish single way of seeing the world. Paladins can't afford to compromise their ideals based on the whim of changing governments. They can't 'Not' go somewhere merely because the laws of the land are not convenient or to their liking, nor would they violate their oaths based on those arbitrary rules. Heck, even governments can change. What then? What if the new King decided that Slavery was all of the sudden legal? I'd be interested in your argument wherein a Paladin would all of the sudden own slaves.
I. You fail to understand that lawful good is not patented by paladins. Even someone without a deity or profession can be lawful good.
II. There are countless references that the order of the radiant hearts upholds the law in the places where they setup a temple. Refusing to accept something because you don't want to see it is well within your right.
III. Which paladin is shallow? the one who just follows the handful rules of conduct(and ignore anything which might bother him, or strike them down in the name of their god), or the one who plays part in the local government by upholding the laws, respecting the customs and still concluding the mission without neglecting his deity?
You fail to understand that the local government has a standing army and can, by law, draft countless more into a force which no single order can withstand. What would they achieve be oposing the government? Being sent to the afterlife sooner? What is the point in more bloodshed? Is that truly what your LG paladins desire?
No government will just give anyone free reign on their land. They might tolerate them to some extent (if they at least follow the local law), or show wisdom and integrate them by setting additional laws accordingly. Or worst case, send them packing.
A wise paladin will see when the cause is lost, a zealous paladin will not.
Besides, No one is saying that is the way a Paladin, or any Lawful good, would act. Quite the contrary. the example I gave was that Firecam violates the law of the land all the time. How do you reconcile that with your shallow "I will follow the law in all it's forms, regardless of how smart or just that is, BECAUSE i AM LAWFUL!" Have you EVER read anything about the Roman Catholic Church? or about the Muslim Church? Or The KKK? Or the LGB community? Or the United States of America? All examples that directly contradict the above statement. All communities that have in some way caused, or been caused to, change and modify their approach, not because they bowed to the law, but because they had a different approach and caused the government (or were caused AS the government) to alter their approach. I make no value judgement about any of the organizations, merely that they directly contradict your comment.
I refuse to further discuss this issue with you. If you actually had read the thread carefully, you would already have seen the agreement of everybody in here not to drag our wordly religion in it. Besides, you already have your answers, just readup.
And 'Plays a part in local government?' You mean Like Darth Vader? That's it. Darth Vader is a Paladin. Let's see. He upholds the law. He provides "Order" to the galaxy. He is very important to the Government. He must be a Paladin. There is no such thing as a zealous paladin. Please see above.
While I read through all of this, maybe we should start with the rulebook?
"Most paladins serve actual gods, though a few act as champions of a primordial, demon, or devil though in the latter two cases they must commit atrocities such as the sacrifice of sapients in order to retain their powers. All paladins, regardless of whom they serve and how they act, are expected to serve as sworn defenders of the faithful, smiting the unholy."
Reference: Player's Handbook 4th edition, p. 90. Wizards of the Coast. ISBN 0-7869-4867-1
So yes, the Paladin comes in all forms and, different from the rules applied in BG, in all alignments. The only limitation is that the Paladin has the exact alignment of it's deity. And not all of them are LG.
I don't know where you come from, but down here we have a hard time believing that someone who is bound by a rigid codex to smite the unholy is not a zealot, especially if the deity decides for her, who the unholy creature is. Actually the Chaotic Good Paladins are the moderate ones, the ones you would like to have in the neighborhood.
Now I do, in principle, agree that Christianity should have no place in a magical fantasy discussion. Too many conflicts, and too much potential for causing offence (both from adherents and detractors!). That's why, when I DM in my very historically themed setting, I use Classic Greco-Roman Mythology as the starting point for belief systems and morals. But even so, in talking about things with a medieval European style or atmosphere; you can't avoid the actual medieval inspirations entirely!
BTW, Spyder, just an excellent job making your case. If I remember correctly, you rarely actually play LG yourself? So I'm doubly impressed.
And since you are so impressed, please tell us what point that was.
Yes, as I understand it 4E opened the doors for non goodly aligned Paladins. I kind of get the reasons why, so that every military-focused Deity would have their own special warrior. "For me", I hold on to the classic Advanced - 2E Paladins that are required to be Lawful good, on the rare occasion when I have reason to consider or indeed play one. But it is good to know that, regardless of alignment, they are still held to some form of Order. That at least keeps "Me" in my comfort zone.
@atcDave. Thanks very much. And you are right. I don't generally play a Paladin, or indeed a Goodly type. But I do enjoy the challenge of the discussion. I just hope and try to keep things topic specific and not personal. I did try and avoid falling a-foul of Godwin's law as I so often do.
And, no, I don't see a Chaotic Good Paladin as any less zealous than LG. In fact, the CG Paladin scares me more because he's not beholden to any sort of system beyond his deity. No chivalry, no going through proper government channels, just violence against Evil as soon as they identify it. To me, somebody with elite martial training, holy powers, and no accountability to any code of conduct is dangerous. Give me an LG Paladin order in my community any day. Less risk of a gang war between the gung-ho CGs and the local gangs spilling into the streets.