@the_spyder Where is your reference, what is your source? I will not accept yadda yaddy anymore, we are not discussing someones believes (which in a fantasy setting will hold endless possibilities), we want to discuss facts.
Here you find a list of knightly orders, clercy order and support groups for the LG deity Illmater, the broken god. It's somewhat dated, but it's from someone who wrote the rules.
You will also find their 3 vows, their code of conduct:
Not all of their followers even take all 3 vows. Pay special attention to the knightly Order of Companions of the Noble Heart. When they are enraged, they will not only kill everyone from an enemy temple, they will tear the building apart brick by brick (which is quite a feat if you use only your own muscles).
One link and I verified that: - that there are knightly orders as well as clerical groups - that the codex or code of conduct is rather limited in it's expression. How can you work with them, if you do not add local laws? - that not even all followers chose to take all vows
How much more lore must I represent before you agree that I just might be right on the spot?
If you still have seen a mistake, please don't hold back and show me a reference for your observations.
@Teleron - reference? to what? You requested your miss-steps in logic. I reference YOUR posts. I pointed out by taking all of your posts and consolidated. I wasn't referencing anything outside of this thread, so I am really not understanding your request.
Also, with the greatest respect, this is a social and friendly board. We, all of us attempt to play nice and be friendly, focusing on topics and discussions rather than thinly veiled personal attacks. I'd appreciate it if you would consider that before posting something which, however unintentionally, may seem a bit brusk or dismissive. Thanks.
Of course I'd point out, Teleron's link is entirely about the church and its own Holy Orders. There is no mention of a secular connection at all. Clearly the terminology is all jumbled now if WotC is using Knight for both secular and holy orders. Historic Holy Orders went by "Brother", not "Knight" or "Sir". But all this means is a distinction needs to be made between religious or secular authority along with the title. It doesn't suddenly give a knight of a religious order authority (or interest) in local laws.
One link and I verified that: - that there are knightly orders as well as clerical groups - that the codex or code of conduct is rather limited in it's expression. How can you work with them, if you do not add local laws? - that not even all followers chose to take all vows
How much more lore must I represent before you agree that I just might be right on the spot?
If you still have seen a mistake, please don't hold back and show me a reference for your observations.
This is actually more information than you have provided to date. It isn't conclusive or overwhelming like you seem to think, but it is better than what has come before.
However, what you have linked to is a summarization of what one single Deity's religion looks like at say 10,000 feet. I see nothing what so ever about specifics or to say something on the order of 'The codex is spelled out exactly like this'. Nor that it is '10 lines'. Nor the exact wording, nor even a general feel for the wording. Nor that there is only one Codex for all deities. If I so chose, I could sum up the Bible in half a page, or the Koran. That in no way means that I would capture 1/10000th of the flavor.
Additionally, I see nothing at all which even speaks to the role of Paladins with the government. There is a comment about injustices, but what if the government imposes them? Nothing at all. If anything, left to this information, I'd say that Justice is decided by the Deity, not any other agency. In fact, the complete absence of mention of governmental body only reinforces that belief, rather than debunks it. And as such, the worshipers are beholden only to the Deity and have NO allegiances to any local government.
Nor do I see anything at all saying that 'So for this Deity, thus for all deities'. Again, anecdotal and far from conclusive.
Plus it doesn't answer any of the other items I addressed, the fallacy, the failure to understand other points, the attempt to dismiss other examples with no argument. Nor the dismissive attitude thus far.
Sorry for this form, but here you can see a selected few. Feel free to check wether they are secluded, allied or on friendly terms, I can provide another four pages if you don't find what you seek.
Helm Order Companions of the One True Vision Watchers Over the Fallen Everwatch Knights Vigilant Eyes of the God
Ibrandul Order the Shadows of the Night the Knights Fallen Horgardin
Consists Of Clergy & rogues Priests, rogues & warriors Adventurers
Ilmater
Order Companions of the Noble Heart the Holy Warriors of Suffering the Order of the Golden Cup the Order of the Lambent Rose
Disciples of St. Sollars the Twice-Martyred Followers of the Unhindered Path Disciples of St. Morgan the Taciturn Sisters of the St. Jaspers of the Rocks The weeping Friars
Mystra Order the Harpers Children of the Starry Quill Knights of the Mystic Fire Order of the Shooting Star
Consists Of Varied classes Bards Paladins Rangers
One example: Knights of the Mystic Fire (Mystra)
Organization
The Knights of the Mystic Fire were sponsored by the church of Mystra. They were closely allied with, or even a parent organization to, the Order of the Shooting Star. (that was an organization of rangers)
The number of members in the order was at least five hundred. However, they worked in small groups; it was rare to find more than a dozen in any one place.
Activities
The Mystic Fire Knights regularly joined priests of Mystra on missions to find and uncover lost stores of ancient magic. They also served as guardians at large Mystran temples and at magical workshops, usually as leaders of regular defenders.
Powers
Mystra granted divine magic to the paladins of the order. However, they also studied arcane magic, and the paladins could train freely as wizards. They could even double as guild wizards of Waterdeep. As such, the Mystic Fire Knights had a closer affinity with arcane magic, potentially being able to cast arcane spells and having an increased capacity for magic. A Mystic Fire Knight could smite an evil foe and disrupt their ability to use magic, and had an ability called "Spellshatter", in which they could strike a foe and dispel a magical effect on them.
@Teleron - reference? to what? You requested your miss-steps in logic. I reference YOUR posts. I pointed out by taking all of your posts and consolidated. I wasn't referencing anything outside of this thread, so I am really not understanding your request.
Also, with the greatest respect, this is a social and friendly board. We, all of us attempt to play nice and be friendly, focusing on topics and discussions rather than thinly veiled personal attacks. I'd appreciate it if you would consider that before posting something which, however unintentionally, may seem a bit brusk or dismissive. Thanks.
If I did a misstep, then you surely have a source which tells me where I stepped in the wrong direction? I mean, that's not just your toe twitching, is it?
@Teleron - I fear you aren't reading my posts because your request makes no sense.
Also, the quoted data that you provided above makes no reference to Paladins and interaction with government. I don't see any relevance to the topic at hand.
If there is a relevance or connection that I am not seeing, please feel free to point it out. But since there is literally no connection to the legal system, the codex, the way Paladins deal with kinds or government, I can't see how any of the volumes of information you are providing apply.
@Teleron - I fear you aren't reading my posts because your request makes no sense.
Also, the quoted data that you provided above makes no reference to Paladins and interaction with government. I don't see any relevance to the topic at hand.
If there is a relevance or connection that I am not seeing, please feel free to point it out. But since there is literally no connection to the legal system, the codex, the way Paladins deal with kinds or government, I can't see how any of the volumes of information you are providing apply.
Well, the internet is all yours. You told me that every Paladin seeks out to destroy all evil and any unlawful behaviour. The paramount of justice. If you read up on the link you will see, that the Paladins of Illmater are actually only charged to defend when attacked and some will even not defend themselfes, because of the vow of peace (that is why they need another order to guard them). So if a cutpurse or burglar where around, they would only frown and move on.
Every Order has a different mission, and oonce you researched the orders I listed above, you will find Orders, who are sponsored by a church (read: paid), sidearms of a church or temple or are on friendy terms. I can broaden the search with way over 4 pages on Orders of Knights, and you can cross-reference them if they actually are doing what you think all Paladins will do, whereever they come from.
I'm looking forward to your findings, because you both invested so much effort and time in this thread and never seem to have sources to check out. With your powerful help we will know it in no time at all.
AtcDave will provide for his question of secular connection and you will seek out what codex or vows the Orders do have. From there you can asume what their general mission is. And if you really want to, I can even proide you with a list of about 500 Paladins and you can research their history, so that we get details instead of "a 10000ft overview". I personally would find that a little to much work, but if you insist, please speak up.
Teleron there's some really good stuff there about Paladins and their role in the church. That's exciting stuff for role playing paladins! Again, no information about the role of government. But I wouldn't expect there to be any, the two institutions remain separate.
Well, the internet is all yours. You told me that every Paladin seeks out to destroy all evil and any unlawful behaviour. The paramount of justice. If you read up on the link you will see, that the Paladins of Illmater are actually only charged to defend when attacked and some will even not defend themselfes, because of the vow of peace (that is why they need another order to guard them). So if a cutpurse or burglar where around, they would only frown and move on.
I said nothing of the sort. In fact, I have said quite the opposite on several occasions, or if not the exact opposite, certainly quite different (usually words the effect that Paladins don't strike someone merely for "walking around while Evil", or statements like "they stand for justice, not murder"). I would appreciate you pointing out specifically where I said anything like "Paladins seeks out to destroy all evil". Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else?
Every Order has a different mission, and oonce you researched the orders I listed above, you will find Orders, who are sponsored by a church (read: paid), sidearms of a church or temple or are on friendy terms. I can broaden the search with way over 4 pages on Orders of Knights, and you can cross-reference them if they actually are doing what you think all Paladins will do, whereever they come from.
Um, there is an absolute disconnect here. Nothing in the above paragraph is even remotely connected to the topic of discussion or any comment I directly made. Are you sure you are posting on the right forum? In what way does that have any bearing on "Lawfuls and their interaction with Governmental justice systems" or "Paladins following 'the law'"?
AtcDave will provide for his question of secular connection and you will seek out what codex or vows the Orders do have. From there you can asume what their general mission is. And if you really want to, I can even proide you with a list of about 500 Paladins and you can research their history, so that we get details instead of "a 10000ft overview". I personally would find that a little to much work, but if you insist, please speak up.
A win-win for us all.
Again, please help me understand how any of that at all connects with the topic being discussed?
I feel as if, despite numerous attempts to reign this topic back on track and to attempt to respond to your requests for information, you are not reading anything and merely posting whatever comes to mind.
Well, the internet is all yours. You told me that every Paladin seeks out to destroy all evil and any unlawful behaviour. The paramount of justice. If you read up on the link you will see, that the Paladins of Illmater are actually only charged to defend when attacked and some will even not defend themselfes, because of the vow of peace (that is why they need another order to guard them). So if a cutpurse or burglar where around, they would only frown and move on.
I said nothing of the sort. In fact, I have said quite the opposite on several occasions, or if not the exact opposite, certainly quite different (usually words the effect that Paladins don't strike someone merely for "walking around while Evil", or statements like "they stand for justice, not murder"). I would appreciate you pointing out specifically where I said anything like "Paladins seeks out to destroy all evil". Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else?
Every Order has a different mission, and oonce you researched the orders I listed above, you will find Orders, who are sponsored by a church (read: paid), sidearms of a church or temple or are on friendy terms. I can broaden the search with way over 4 pages on Orders of Knights, and you can cross-reference them if they actually are doing what you think all Paladins will do, whereever they come from.
Um, there is an absolute disconnect here. Nothing in the above paragraph is even remotely connected to the topic of discussion or any comment I directly made. Are you sure you are posting on the right forum? In what way does that have any bearing on "Lawfuls and their interaction with Governmental justice systems" or "Paladins following 'the law'"?
AtcDave will provide for his question of secular connection and you will seek out what codex or vows the Orders do have. From there you can asume what their general mission is. And if you really want to, I can even proide you with a list of about 500 Paladins and you can research their history, so that we get details instead of "a 10000ft overview". I personally would find that a little to much work, but if you insist, please speak up.
A win-win for us all.
Again, please help me understand how any of that at all connects with the topic being discussed?
I feel as if, despite numerous attempts to reign this topic back on track and to attempt to respond to your requests for information, you are not reading anything and merely posting whatever comes to mind.
Your quote: "And I see Paladins very different. For a Paladin, his Codex and his patron God are THE Highest Law. All other concerns are secondary. "If" the teachings of his Deity are in keeping with the legal system, he may appear to follow that legal system, but in truth, he is following his codex, Not the law. They just happen to be parallel. " I followed with showing you a code of conduct, the 3 vows the Illmater Paladins might take and then pointed out that the 3 vows have little implact if they don't also follow the local law. And you followed up that you do not see a connection with the law, that they in fact could also ignore them, even though Amn, for example, only tolerates the religion if they stick to their laws and for me a LG character, wether it's a paladin or not, will seek order and find it in just laws.
So what's wrong if you check for that very connection yourself? To make things easier I provided you with some helpful data, so you can save some time.
Your quote: "And I see Paladins very different. For a Paladin, his Codex and his patron God are THE Highest Law. All other concerns are secondary. "If" the teachings of his Deity are in keeping with the legal system, he may appear to follow that legal system, but in truth, he is following his codex, Not the law. They just happen to be parallel. "
I followed with showing you a code of conduct, the 3 vows the Illmater Paladins might take and then pointed out that the 3 vows have little implact if they don't also follow the local law. And you followed up that you do not see a connection with the law, that they in fact could also ignore them, even though Amn, for example, only tolerates the religion if they stick to their laws and for me a LG character, wether it's a paladin or not, will seek order and find it in just laws.
So what's wrong if you check for that very connection yourself? To make things easier I provided you with some helpful data, so you can save some time.
Ah, now I understand. The answer is simple. I didn't say that Paladins track down and kill evil. You made that up.
And as for the conclusion that “the 3 vows have little implact if they don't also follow the local law” is a bit strange because that isn't the truth. The vow of poverty means that they don't keep or get paid money. Any government, or lack thereof allows for this. The vow of purity means that they don't hold personal connections above that of the common man. Again, this can happen in any state, even the absence of a government. And the vow of peace means they are pacifists. And we know, from Ghandi's example that it is VERY possible to be a Pacifist and against the government, so that's fine. So these vows are clearly very easily implementable with zero influence on, or control by the Government.
I had thought for a minute that I was missing something. Turns out I wasn't. the examples that you were using had nothing what so ever to do with the point. I feel much better now.
That also indicates that the matters of the mortals are of very little interest for the deity (what a surprise, no daily tea party), and the main focus is on the church, which setup the shrines and temples. If I follow up the book, then they can decide wether they use guards (for example Citywatch, but also Mercenaries or an affiliated Order of Knights), or train their own defence. There are Places where there is a state religion, and a church is directly supported, or other combinations, from freedom of religion unless breaking law to restrictions.
@Teleron -- what exactly are you trying to prove with these passages? That orders exist? That countries exist? Most people in this thread already knew and accepted both of those things.
If we're still arguing whether or not paladin orders are always beholden to secular laws (and I really don't know anymore), here's an interesting quote from Champions of Valor, pg105:
Janessar: Defenders of the oppressed and downtrodden in Calimshan, the Janessar waylay slaving caravans and free their illicit cargoes, and stop anyone from being robbed on the road. They have loose ties with the Knights Kuldar of Barakmordin (see below) and often ride across the Calimshan–Tethyr border to evade capture by Tethyrian troops. They travel in small groups of five or six priests, cavaliers, and paladins, and because they are never found in groups of more than twelve, their true numbers are a matter of speculation. They maintain several secret strongholds in the Marching Mountains and are led by a trio of elderly priests who no longer ride or fight (or in some cases, even see). _________________
This is under the greater entry for the Triad, so they're Tyrran, Tormite, or Ilmatari. I would guess mostly Tyrran, since that's the most common in the area. Anyway, obviously Calishite law, where slavery is legal, doesn't apply to these people. It's weird that the Tethyrians are trying to capture them, since Tethyr's pretty LG itself (maybe it's a typo for Calishite troops), but they seem to be religious vigilantes with little concern for local laws.
If I have good intentions and obey traffic rules, does that mean i'm Lawful Good?
You're probably teasing, but this makes it an easy definition of LG. No, you're only LG if you think rules like traffic laws are integral to a good and prosperous society, and you also try to help people in need whenever possible.
@Teleron -- what exactly are you trying to prove with these passages? That orders exist? That countries exist? Most people in this thread already knew and accepted both of those things.
If we're still arguing whether or not paladin orders are always beholden to secular laws (and I really don't know anymore), here's an interesting quote from Champions of Valor, pg105:
Janessar: Defenders of the oppressed and downtrodden in Calimshan, the Janessar waylay slaving caravans and free their illicit cargoes, and stop anyone from being robbed on the road. They have loose ties with the Knights Kuldar of Barakmordin (see below) and often ride across the Calimshan–Tethyr border to evade capture by Tethyrian troops. They travel in small groups of five or six priests, cavaliers, and paladins, and because they are never found in groups of more than twelve, their true numbers are a matter of speculation. They maintain several secret strongholds in the Marching Mountains and are led by a trio of elderly priests who no longer ride or fight (or in some cases, even see). _________________
This is under the greater entry for the Triad, so they're Tyrran, Tormite, or Ilmatari. I would guess mostly Tyrran, since that's the most common in the area. Anyway, obviously Calishite law, where slavery is legal, doesn't apply to these people. It's weird that the Tethyrians are trying to capture them, since Tethyr's pretty LG itself (maybe it's a typo for Calishite troops), but they seem to be religious vigilantes with little concern for local laws.
Interesting that you would asume that they are LG. Like the Tyr has an Order which focuses on the "lawful" part and an Order which focuses on the "good" part, the described secret sociey might have origniated from LG, but now they are raiding Caravans. Since they don't sent in the A-Team, that means a fight and bloodshed, and since slavery is a very lucrative trade, it will be noted by the merchants and other more influent instances who profit from them. Since that will influence the way of life, and disrupts peace, the government will be forced to act. They might persue them, or they might sent city guards to secure the caravans. Once they start fighting with law enforcers who don't even directly benefit from slavery, the very same guards who uphold the order where most of the laws might still be acceptable, they cannot be concidered LG anymore. That's most likely NG, if they acknowledge part of the law, or CG if they disregard all laws of the country.
The driving factor for them is the good part, the first part of the alignment takes a backseat here.
Don't forget that sometimes one's freedom fighter are the other's terrorists.
A LG move would have been to influence the government by good example. Like converting the masses in a temple, which shows that they can benefit more, if they abbadon the old lifestyle (new traderoutes, providing education and other services like charity, healing, prayers, console).
I think I have finished my point of view in the thread. There were some misunderstandings and I believe we now have a better understanding of each other points. Especially the "never"is now playing a much lesser part, and that alone increases the quality of any arguement.
Don't forget that sometimes one's freedom fighter are the other's terrorists.
And yet they both break the law.
Just remember, just because one part of an alignment is dominant, that doesn't mean that the other portion doesn't play a part. Once someone stops acknowledging that other part, they change to 'True'/alignment or 'Neutral'/alignment.
If I have good intentions and obey traffic rules, does that mean i'm Lawful Good?
There is not enough information, so I chose the most likely one: True Neutral.
Now you will certainly say: No way!
Well, let's have a look at it: part 1: moving from point A to point B part 2: having good intentions and part 3: will obey traffic rules
1. Moving might be an intention, but it's as neutral as it gets unless he provides the reason why his absense will do something good, or his presense on point B will do some good deeds.
2. Having good intentions is all nice and shiny, but which one does he refer to? And does he actually act the part?
3. obeying traffic rules might be a lawful behaviour, but it could also mean that he just doesn't want any more speed tickets, or doen't want to draw any attention to him.
If I put my mind to it, I can give a sound reasoning for virtually any alignment combination, even though they are rather unlikely.
so, yes: True Neutral, with a tendency for all alignments, unless we get more information.
Interesting that you would asume that they are LG. Like the Tyr has an Order which focuses on the "lawful" part and an Order which focuses on the "good" part, the described secret sociey might have origniated from LG, but now they are raiding Caravans. Since they don't sent in the A-Team, that means a fight and bloodshed, and since slavery is a very lucrative trade, it will be noted by the merchants and other more influent instances who profit from them. Since that will influence the way of life, and disrupts peace, the government will be forced to act. They might persue them, or they might sent city guards to secure the caravans. Once they start fighting with law enforcers who don't even directly benefit from slavery, the very same guards who uphold the order where most of the laws might still be acceptable, they cannot be concidered LG anymore. That's most likely NG, if they acknowledge part of the law, or CG if they disregard all laws of the country.
I agree with you - this was my point very early on in this thread. Lawful good is more likely to try to change the laws and change the government, not openly defy it and/or overthrow it. Once you move to vigilante action you have definitely gone over into Chaotic - isn't heroic vigilante (aka Batman) often used as the epitome of Chaotic Good?
One other thing we haven't really discussed. Most of the deities in DnD allow for a range of followers. A lawful good deity often has followers who are chaotic good as well as followers who are lawful neutral, depending on their portfolio. When designing a character who is a "Lawful Good" paladin, you can choose from several deities who are either good or lawful (non-evil), but not necessarily both. For example, Kelemvor is a Lawful Neutral god whose paladins are focused on destroying undead. Mystra's (lawful neutral) Mystic Fire Knights are paladins devoted to recovering and protecting arcane secrets.
Interesting that you would asume that they are LG. Like the Tyr has an Order which focuses on the "lawful" part and an Order which focuses on the "good" part, the described secret sociey might have origniated from LG, but now they are raiding Caravans..
@Teleron - I don't assume they're all LG. Elements within them would have to be, though, because it specifically says that "they travel in small groups of five or six priests, cavaliers, and paladins." This is from a 3e book, so those paladins would have to be LG. This isn't an assumption; these are the rules. Obviously they are not particularly focused on the lawful aspect of the Triad's doctrines, but these are still lawful churches.
And they're only raiding slaving caravans. They're protecting honest caravans. Big difference. And I'm pretty sure you don't suddenly cease to be lawful because an evil government is sending troops after you. If that were the case, no paladin would ever be able to take on Red Wizards or Zhentarim. That makes no sense. Rescuing victims of an evil government does not make you unlawful. Trying to topple the government might, but that ISN'T what's going on here. A paladin isn't expected to lie down and die just because he's being attacked by soldiers of a legitimate government. Hunting down those soldiers if they're uninvolved would be problematic, sure, but again, that's not what's going on.
These people are *not* CG, though. I agree that this behavior would be more in line with CG, but these priests wouldn't be able to get spells from their gods if they CG. The normal priests could be NG, certainly, but that doesn't account for that paladins that are with them.
Obviously we don't know exactly how they're conducting their freedom fighting activities--maybe they do use force as a last resort, always accept surrenders, etc., but it's pretty clear that in countries where the law is in direct opposition to what a Tyrran considers justice (i.e., slaving countries), the Tyrran concept of justice wins out over the local laws. A Tyrran will try to work within a system to effect change if the system is otherwise functional, but where it isn't... yeah, things apparently change. They strive to lead by example within functional governments, sure, but legitimized evil is still evil, and they're duty-bound to not sit back and condone things like slavery.
So did anyone notice they changed the NPC breaking points? Neutral characters are now happy at 20 reputation and only break at 1, though that's still not accurate because:
LNs wouldn't break if they have sworn allegiance to the group even at 1 reputation.
TNs shouldn't be bothered much by reputation and should just be neutral at 5-20, unhappy 2-4, break at 1.
CNs should break a lot sooner if the party is damaging their personal reputation (5 or less break), and get mad everytime the reputation lowers, and happy when it increases only for their own selfish ego.
Agreed. We need look no further than that graphic to settle all this nonsense about LG characters blindly following laws. The Jedi, probably the most iconic Lawful Good organization in all of fiction, tried to arrest and later openly rebelled against the newly-crowned supreme dictator of their quickly-turning-from-democracy-to-tyranny society.
Has anyone came across any alignment charts for The Walking Dead? I saw one before, based on season one, but never any others. It's one of my favorite shows.
Has anyone came across any alignment charts for The Walking Dead? I saw one before, based on season one, but never any others. It's one of my favorite shows.
I'd absolutely buy The Governor as Lawful Evil, particularly after the most recent episodes this season. I think that Shane got LE merely because they needed a face for the box. He is more NE or CE although there are better choices for those two slots.
Comments
Where is your reference, what is your source? I will not accept yadda yaddy anymore, we are not discussing someones believes (which in a fantasy setting will hold endless possibilities), we want to discuss facts.
I give you an example:
http://dnd.eizzn.com/detail/ilmater/
Here you find a list of knightly orders, clercy order and support groups for the LG deity Illmater, the broken god. It's somewhat dated, but it's from someone who wrote the rules.
You will also find their 3 vows, their code of conduct:
- Purity (chastity)
- Poverty
- Peace (no violence unless attacked first)
Not all of their followers even take all 3 vows. Pay special attention to the knightly Order of Companions of the Noble Heart. When they are enraged, they will not only kill everyone from an enemy temple, they will tear the building apart brick by brick (which is quite a feat if you use only your own muscles).
One link and I verified that:
- that there are knightly orders as well as clerical groups
- that the codex or code of conduct is rather limited in it's expression. How can you work with them, if you do not add local laws?
- that not even all followers chose to take all vows
How much more lore must I represent before you agree that I just might be right on the spot?
If you still have seen a mistake, please don't hold back and show me a reference for your observations.
Also, with the greatest respect, this is a social and friendly board. We, all of us attempt to play nice and be friendly, focusing on topics and discussions rather than thinly veiled personal attacks. I'd appreciate it if you would consider that before posting something which, however unintentionally, may seem a bit brusk or dismissive. Thanks.
Clearly the terminology is all jumbled now if WotC is using Knight for both secular and holy orders. Historic Holy Orders went by "Brother", not "Knight" or "Sir".
But all this means is a distinction needs to be made between religious or secular authority along with the title. It doesn't suddenly give a knight of a religious order authority (or interest) in local laws.
However, what you have linked to is a summarization of what one single Deity's religion looks like at say 10,000 feet. I see nothing what so ever about specifics or to say something on the order of 'The codex is spelled out exactly like this'. Nor that it is '10 lines'. Nor the exact wording, nor even a general feel for the wording. Nor that there is only one Codex for all deities. If I so chose, I could sum up the Bible in half a page, or the Koran. That in no way means that I would capture 1/10000th of the flavor.
Additionally, I see nothing at all which even speaks to the role of Paladins with the government. There is a comment about injustices, but what if the government imposes them? Nothing at all. If anything, left to this information, I'd say that Justice is decided by the Deity, not any other agency. In fact, the complete absence of mention of governmental body only reinforces that belief, rather than debunks it. And as such, the worshipers are beholden only to the Deity and have NO allegiances to any local government.
Nor do I see anything at all saying that 'So for this Deity, thus for all deities'. Again, anecdotal and far from conclusive.
Plus it doesn't answer any of the other items I addressed, the fallacy, the failure to understand other points, the attempt to dismiss other examples with no argument. Nor the dismissive attitude thus far.
Sorry for this form, but here you can see a selected few. Feel free to check wether they are secluded, allied or on friendly terms, I can provide another four pages if you don't find what you seek.
Helm
Order
Companions of the One True Vision
Watchers Over the Fallen
Everwatch Knights
Vigilant Eyes of the God
Consists Of
Clerics, fighters & crusaders
Battlefield healers
Clerics & fighters
Paladins
Ibrandul
Order
the Shadows of the Night
the Knights Fallen
Horgardin
Consists Of
Clergy & rogues
Priests, rogues & warriors
Adventurers
Ilmater
Order
Companions of the Noble Heart
the Holy Warriors of Suffering
the Order of the Golden Cup
the Order of the Lambent Rose
Disciples of St. Sollars the Twice-Martyred
Followers of the Unhindered Path
Disciples of St. Morgan the Taciturn
Sisters of the St. Jaspers of the Rocks
The weeping Friars
Consists Of
Paladins & warriors
Paladins & warriors
Paladins & warriors
Paladins & warriors
Monks
Monks
Monks
Monks (female)
Monks
Mystra
Order
the Harpers
Children of the Starry Quill
Knights of the Mystic Fire
Order of the Shooting Star
Consists Of
Varied classes
Bards
Paladins
Rangers
One example:
Knights of the Mystic Fire (Mystra)
Organization
The Knights of the Mystic Fire were sponsored by the church of Mystra. They were closely allied with, or even a parent organization to, the Order of the Shooting Star. (that was an organization of rangers)
The number of members in the order was at least five hundred. However, they worked in small groups; it was rare to find more than a dozen in any one place.
Activities
The Mystic Fire Knights regularly joined priests of Mystra on missions to find and uncover lost stores of ancient magic. They also served as guardians at large Mystran temples and at magical workshops, usually as leaders of regular defenders.
Powers
Mystra granted divine magic to the paladins of the order. However, they also studied arcane magic, and the paladins could train freely as wizards. They could even double as guild wizards of Waterdeep. As such, the Mystic Fire Knights had a closer affinity with arcane magic, potentially being able to cast arcane spells and having an increased capacity for magic. A Mystic Fire Knight could smite an evil foe and disrupt their ability to use magic, and had an ability called "Spellshatter", in which they could strike a foe and dispel a magical effect on them.
Also, the quoted data that you provided above makes no reference to Paladins and interaction with government. I don't see any relevance to the topic at hand.
If there is a relevance or connection that I am not seeing, please feel free to point it out. But since there is literally no connection to the legal system, the codex, the way Paladins deal with kinds or government, I can't see how any of the volumes of information you are providing apply.
Every Order has a different mission, and oonce you researched the orders I listed above, you will find Orders, who are sponsored by a church (read: paid), sidearms of a church or temple or are on friendy terms. I can broaden the search with way over 4 pages on Orders of Knights, and you can cross-reference them if they actually are doing what you think all Paladins will do, whereever they come from.
I'm looking forward to your findings, because you both invested so much effort and time in this thread and never seem to have sources to check out. With your powerful help we will know it in no time at all.
AtcDave will provide for his question of secular connection and you will seek out what codex or vows the Orders do have. From there you can asume what their general mission is. And if you really want to, I can even proide you with a list of about 500 Paladins and you can research their history, so that we get details instead of "a 10000ft overview". I personally would find that a little to much work, but if you insist, please speak up.
A win-win for us all.
Again, no information about the role of government. But I wouldn't expect there to be any, the two institutions remain separate.
Afyal
Aglarond
Ajayib
Akanûl
Almraiven
Athalantar
B
Baldur's Gate
Barakuir
Baz
C
Calimshan
Chessenta
Cormanthyr
Cormyr
Corwell
D
Damara
Dambrath
Darastriverthicha
Delimbiyran
Dhalnada
Dihliz
E
Earthfast
Erlkazar
Esparin
Evermeet
F
Fahhas
G
Gana
Gazal
Gontal
Grunfesting
Guge
H
Hafayah
Halwa
Hayyat
Helligheim
High Imaskar
Hilm
History of Cormanthyr
Hiyal
Hudid
Huzuz
I
I'tiraf
Iltkazar
Impiltur
Island Kingdoms
J
Jaqal
Jumlat
K
Kadar
Kadarasto
Kingdom of Nix
Kozakura
L
Liham
M
Mahabba
Many-Arrows
Mithral Hall
Mordulkin
Mulhorand
Muluk
Murghôm
N
Najara
Nedeheim
N cont.
Nimr
Nog
O
Orva
P
Phalorm
Purple Rocks
Q
Qadib
Qudra
R
Rog'osto
Roldilar
S
Samarach
Sarifal
Selmalyr
Shou Lung
Siremun
Steaming Isles
Sunn
T
Tajar
Talab
Tethyr
Tharkrixghontix
Threskel
Trisk
U
Ulgarth
Umara
United Moonshae Isles
Utaqa
Utheraal
V
Vastar
W
Wasat
Z
Zakhara
I tried only to include monarchys, since the feudal system usually indicates a close resemble to the medivial (feudal) governments.
I feel as if, despite numerous attempts to reign this topic back on track and to attempt to respond to your requests for information, you are not reading anything and merely posting whatever comes to mind.
"And I see Paladins very different. For a Paladin, his Codex and his patron God are THE Highest Law. All other concerns are secondary. "If" the teachings of his Deity are in keeping with the legal system, he may appear to follow that legal system, but in truth, he is following his codex, Not the law. They just happen to be parallel. "
I followed with showing you a code of conduct, the 3 vows the Illmater Paladins might take and then pointed out that the 3 vows have little implact if they don't also follow the local law. And you followed up that you do not see a connection with the law, that they in fact could also ignore them, even though Amn, for example, only tolerates the religion if they stick to their laws and for me a LG character, wether it's a paladin or not, will seek order and find it in just laws.
So what's wrong if you check for that very connection yourself? To make things easier I provided you with some helpful data, so you can save some time.
And as for the conclusion that “the 3 vows have little implact if they don't also follow the local law” is a bit strange because that isn't the truth. The vow of poverty means that they don't keep or get paid money. Any government, or lack thereof allows for this. The vow of purity means that they don't hold personal connections above that of the common man. Again, this can happen in any state, even the absence of a government. And the vow of peace means they are pacifists. And we know, from Ghandi's example that it is VERY possible to be a Pacifist and against the government, so that's fine. So these vows are clearly very easily implementable with zero influence on, or control by the Government.
I had thought for a minute that I was missing something. Turns out I wasn't. the examples that you were using had nothing what so ever to do with the point. I feel much better now.
In that case only the secular question is left.
Just for a sidenote,
except Faith and Pantheon page 5
The true focus on religious(...)
That also indicates that the matters of the mortals are of very little interest for the deity (what a surprise, no daily tea party), and the main focus is on the church, which setup the shrines and temples. If I follow up the book, then they can decide wether they use guards (for example Citywatch, but also Mercenaries or an affiliated Order of Knights), or train their own defence. There are Places where there is a state religion, and a church is directly supported, or other combinations, from freedom of religion unless breaking law to restrictions.
Hopefully @actDave can provide more
If we're still arguing whether or not paladin orders are always beholden to secular laws (and I really don't know anymore), here's an interesting quote from Champions of Valor, pg105:
Janessar: Defenders of the oppressed and downtrodden in Calimshan, the Janessar waylay slaving caravans and free their illicit cargoes, and stop anyone from being robbed on the road. They have loose ties with the Knights Kuldar of Barakmordin (see below) and often ride across the Calimshan–Tethyr border to evade capture by Tethyrian troops. They travel in small groups of five or six priests, cavaliers, and paladins, and because they are never found in groups of more than twelve, their true numbers are a matter of speculation. They maintain several secret strongholds in the Marching Mountains and are led by a trio of elderly priests who no longer ride or fight (or in some cases, even see).
_________________
This is under the greater entry for the Triad, so they're Tyrran, Tormite, or Ilmatari. I would guess mostly Tyrran, since that's the most common in the area. Anyway, obviously Calishite law, where slavery is legal, doesn't apply to these people. It's weird that the Tethyrians are trying to capture them, since Tethyr's pretty LG itself (maybe it's a typo for Calishite troops), but they seem to be religious vigilantes with little concern for local laws.
Since they don't sent in the A-Team, that means a fight and bloodshed, and since slavery is a very lucrative trade, it will be noted by the merchants and other more influent instances who profit from them. Since that will influence the way of life, and disrupts peace, the government will be forced to act. They might persue them, or they might sent city guards to secure the caravans. Once they start fighting with law enforcers who don't even directly benefit from slavery, the very same guards who uphold the order where most of the laws might still be acceptable, they cannot be concidered LG anymore. That's most likely NG, if they acknowledge part of the law, or CG if they disregard all laws of the country.
The driving factor for them is the good part, the first part of the alignment takes a backseat here.
Don't forget that sometimes one's freedom fighter are the other's terrorists.
A LG move would have been to influence the government by good example. Like converting the masses in a temple, which shows that they can benefit more, if they abbadon the old lifestyle (new traderoutes, providing education and other services like charity, healing, prayers, console).
I think I have finished my point of view in the thread. There were some misunderstandings and I believe we now have a better understanding of each other points. Especially the "never"is now playing a much lesser part, and that alone increases the quality of any arguement.
Just remember, just because one part of an alignment is dominant, that doesn't mean that the other portion doesn't play a part. Once someone stops acknowledging that other part, they change to 'True'/alignment or 'Neutral'/alignment.
Now you will certainly say: No way!
Well, let's have a look at it:
part 1: moving from point A to point B
part 2: having good intentions and
part 3: will obey traffic rules
1. Moving might be an intention, but it's as neutral as it gets unless he provides the reason why his absense will do something good, or his presense on point B will do some good deeds.
2. Having good intentions is all nice and shiny, but which one does he refer to? And does he actually act the part?
3. obeying traffic rules might be a lawful behaviour, but it could also mean that he just doesn't want any more speed tickets, or doen't want to draw any attention to him.
If I put my mind to it, I can give a sound reasoning for virtually any alignment combination, even though they are rather unlikely.
so, yes: True Neutral, with a tendency for all alignments, unless we get more information.
One other thing we haven't really discussed. Most of the deities in DnD allow for a range of followers. A lawful good deity often has followers who are chaotic good as well as followers who are lawful neutral, depending on their portfolio. When designing a character who is a "Lawful Good" paladin, you can choose from several deities who are either good or lawful (non-evil), but not necessarily both. For example, Kelemvor is a Lawful Neutral god whose paladins are focused on destroying undead. Mystra's (lawful neutral) Mystic Fire Knights are paladins devoted to recovering and protecting arcane secrets.
And they're only raiding slaving caravans. They're protecting honest caravans. Big difference. And I'm pretty sure you don't suddenly cease to be lawful because an evil government is sending troops after you. If that were the case, no paladin would ever be able to take on Red Wizards or Zhentarim. That makes no sense. Rescuing victims of an evil government does not make you unlawful. Trying to topple the government might, but that ISN'T what's going on here. A paladin isn't expected to lie down and die just because he's being attacked by soldiers of a legitimate government. Hunting down those soldiers if they're uninvolved would be problematic, sure, but again, that's not what's going on.
These people are *not* CG, though. I agree that this behavior would be more in line with CG, but these priests wouldn't be able to get spells from their gods if they CG. The normal priests could be NG, certainly, but that doesn't account for that paladins that are with them.
Obviously we don't know exactly how they're conducting their freedom fighting activities--maybe they do use force as a last resort, always accept surrenders, etc., but it's pretty clear that in countries where the law is in direct opposition to what a Tyrran considers justice (i.e., slaving countries), the Tyrran concept of justice wins out over the local laws. A Tyrran will try to work within a system to effect change if the system is otherwise functional, but where it isn't... yeah, things apparently change. They strive to lead by example within functional governments, sure, but legitimized evil is still evil, and they're duty-bound to not sit back and condone things like slavery.
http://www.overthinkingit.com/2013/11/21/lawful-good-defense/
LNs wouldn't break if they have sworn allegiance to the group even at 1 reputation.
TNs shouldn't be bothered much by reputation and should just be neutral at 5-20, unhappy 2-4, break at 1.
CNs should break a lot sooner if the party is damaging their personal reputation (5 or less break), and get mad everytime the reputation lowers, and happy when it increases only for their own selfish ego.
But they all get lumped as the same.
Here are two versions:
http://seganomics.deviantart.com/art/Walking-Dead-Alignment-270093587
http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/420429-alignment
Personally I think the second one is more accurate.