Shadowdancer Dual Question.

Ascerion

Hey guys, quick question about dual-classing. I wasn't sure if the weapon proficiencies for dualling were still required to be the same for both classes, or not. For example:

I want to start my dual class as a level 9 Shadowdancer, with pips in either clubs, or quarterstaves. The idea is to get the x2 backstab multiplyer, and dual to either fighter or cleric to self-buff the damage to a higher amount.

I really want to make a *different* dual-class, something that hasn't been done, or documented, regardless if it works well, haha.

My question is, if I dual to cleric, does that open up flails and warhammers and such? Or do I have to stick with clubs and staves? Same with fighter, since I could then use scimitars, long swords, and short swords.

Since I could backstab more often, albeit for a lower amount, I was hoping to come up with something that synergizes well. I've run a "Backstaffer" before, and it's kind-of boring, though.

Thanks!

*Note* The Play-it-Hardcore pages are a God-send. However, this passage under Thief/Cleric confused me.

"If you plan to utilize backstabbing, quarterstaves are your best bet. Slings are your only option for ranged weaponry so invest. If you are going the swashbuckler route, Flails are my personal favorite as they have a wide variety of useful off-hand weapons should you chose to dual-wield."

This does not pertain to backstabbing, I know.

So, after dualling, and you regain your thief levels, do you get to keep Long Sword/Scimitar...etc?

Thanks again, everyone.

~Ascerion

Fardragon

You can only do backstab damage with official thief weapons, regardless of what your second class allows you to use.

Ascerion

Yeah, I worded it really badly. I guess even if dualling to Cleric let you use those weapons, it wouldn't matter, since you can't backstab with them. So, I have to pick fighter for a stronger weapon. Damn.

I wish Thieves could backstab with a mace right about now, heh. Especially with The Stupifier. Looks like if I go the Cleric route, I have to use staves to be anywhere around decent.

Ascerion

Alright, decided I'm going Shadowdancer/Fighter at level 9, and going to put points into Longswords and 2-Weapon Fighting to try and get that x2 Backstab up a bit. Thanks.

Ascerion

Sorry for the triple-post, but I had to add this information from Humanoid_Taifun who seems really knowledgeable.

"FMT is a really great backstabbing option because they can use Mislead (and Improved Haste) to do 10 backstabs in a single round. Use warrior HLAs to improve the damage further if you really need to, I myself tend to run out of enemies after a couple of seconds."

Old 3 year old post, but I'm sure the mechanics are still solid. I wonder if I could dual to mage, and get improved invisibility as a contingency and backstab over and over...but then I'd have to use daggers or staves...hmmm.

God this game has amazing re-play value. So many possibilities!

HandofTyr

If you dual to mage you can still use any thief weapon to shank. Clerics are odd because they are specifically denied certain options, so it carries over in dual/multi situations, while other classes simply can't gain proficiency (which in BG means you can't equip).

I'm not sure on the usefulness of shadowdancer ->mage. In my mind the biggest perk of shadowdancer is HiPS (at least until HLAs kick in); a wizard dual has a number of invisibility tricks that make the shadowdancer's main strength seem less useful. Put another way, from a pure power perspective, it seems like you're giving useful things away- thief points and a larger backstab- for redundant abilities.

Obviously, go SD->Mage if you like, but I think a SD->fighter or cleric gains more from the combination.

Mungri

SD > Mage isn't a good choice, because plain Thief > Mage gets a higher backstab, and you get plenty of invisibility spells.

You do get a couple of weaker time stops thrown in, but you cant attack anything with those, and HIPS isn't a great choice compared to shadow door and mislead.

Pure thief, or swashbuckler if you don't bother with backstabs are better for dualing to mages, Shadowdancer should be kept pure, or if you want to dual then go with fighter.

GamingFreak

well, honestly I'd say that SD's abilities, if anything, make it so that when you turn Mage, you don't have to memorize invisibility spells to help with your stealth, and since HiPS is almost instant, using that in the middle of a fight means that your SD/mage can't be targeted since he's undetectable, in theory, and you didn't have to suffer the downtime of spellcasting or waste a contingency to go invisible.

Tenser's Transformation, the level 6 spell, also helps with another problem the class combo has: thac0. If you want to go this route for dual-classing, I'd advise dualling either at 8 or 9, though dualling at 8 means you get that last proficiency point before it's ideal to dual over, whereas waiting until level 9 means you get a x3 Backstab multiplier.

I wanna say right now that this isn't really a good option for backstabbing. If you want a healthy backstabber with tools to hide easier, go Mage/Thief multi-class instead with casts of invisibility. That way you get more levels to thief and get a higher backstab multiplier, as well as Thief HLAs.

The main reason for this option at all will be HiPS, which unless you are willing to just make a "quick hide" mage, really has no great features to it, since your thieving skills will be dedicated mostly towards Move Silently or Hide in Shadows (or both, though Move Silently is ideal).

Also if you do this go Quarterstaff for that sweet Staff of the Magi (Staff of Magi backstabs!)

Mungri

But HIPS doesn't give you a reason to not have mislead / improved invisibility on a mage dual, because its nowhere near as good.

Ascerion

It's worth it to be a Shadowdancer just to HiPS when being approached by Noober in Nashkel.

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semiticgoddess

I've found that the Shadowdancer kit's greatest advantage is defensive, not offensive. A double damage backstab every round is basically just one extra attack per round with +4 THAC0. If you want to maximize damage, you're better off dualing from a fighter, not a Shadowdancer. It will give you better THAC0, better damage, more HP, and more proficiency points. It also doesn't require a high Charisma score to dual-class.

The true value of Hide in Plain Sight is the ability to escape danger. A mage can always cast Invisibility, and anyone can drink a Potion of Invisibility if they want to get out of a bad situation. But not if their aura is clouded. A Shadowdancer can use a spell or potion and disappear in the same round. It's extremely difficult to kill a dual-classed Shadowdancer, because if they get hurt, they can vanish instantly, even if their aura is clouded for the next 6 seconds and they're boxed in from all sides.

One of my no-reload runs had a Shadowdancer/Cleric Charname. Even when things were at their worst, she was always able to stay safe.

Pteran

@semiticgod I had no idea you could perform an action and HIPS during the same round. That sounds a lot more exciting.