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It's a great pity *spoiler*

22longZ22longZ Member Posts: 19
When I had a look about the discussion I started whether or not the idea of implementing the option to save Clara I was baffled to see that the discussion was closed. While I do think the mods were a bit to fast do close the discussion because I think the idea is still worth pursuing and some reasonable points were made, this is not the pity I would like to discuss. The pity is that it is not possible for a discussion about Hexxat and Clara to stay open for more than 4 days because people are offended by that fact that Hexxat is black and lesbian while Clara is white. The whole discussion quickly drifted around the topic whether or not the replacement of Clara by Hexxat is something about sexual preferences and the colour of the skin. It reflects bad on the community that a character in a videogame draws so much antipathy because the developers were bold enough to make Hexxat and Clara the way they are.

On my behalf I would like to thank the developers that Hexxat is a black lesbian. In a fantasy world which reflects at least in some way the world we live in, the decision to replace a white girl with a black lesbian shows us where we stand. The great pity is that it seems to be of a great matter to some.

Purudayajankiel
«134

Comments

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Even though I'm usually skeptical of cries of "that's racist," I have to admit that demanding to be able to keep the blank slate white girl instead of being 'forced' to take the strong, independent black lesbian does seem pretty racist.

    zupskyEudaemonium
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    Oh Im just putting those memes in such discussions about

    hexxat and clara


    Because the only thing I thought when you know what happened was

    OMG LOL she did a reverse Michael Jackson

  • DisgruntlerDisgruntler Member Posts: 100
    Hexxat is supposed to be social commentary instead of just a character in a video game, who happens to be black?
    Let's interprete more of her then, not just her skin colour and sexual preference as social commentary. I find the possible implications hilarious.
    So that's why she has no day job

    I could go on, but you get my point. It's not like BG was in particular need of ethnic people. We already had plenty non whites, even more if we include white non humans under ethnic.
    I assume the decision to make Hexxat black had more to do with how overplayed pale, white girls with black hair as vampires are.







  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited November 2013
    The only thing i dislike about Hexxat(besides her ridiculously OP stats, but whatever, i'm OP as well ;p), is her portrait. And no, i'm not talking about her color, but the portrait itself.

    The first portrait you see when creating a new game has this mysterious woman with a cloak and red eyes, and you can SEE she is darker colored behind the cloak, although it's greyish ( and guess what, since she is what she is, it should be a bit more greyish).

    So why do you put the second portrait, where she looks nothing like the first, and nothing like a... what she is.

    IMO, they should use the first hooded portrait, and give it the colors she has, but the quality of the 2 images, is day and night. Or maybe not the quality, but the second one imo doesn't depict her accurately.

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    @Mornmagor: You're aware that the "hooded woman" pic was concept art, right? I mean, Dorn's portrait doesn't look like this either.

  • GoldenEggGoldenEgg Member Posts: 23
    Not being a fan of the romances (any of them) i'm not overly involved in the whole horror / love of Hexxat's sexuality thing filling the forums at the minute. But, I come down on the side of a non-white, non-hetero character being kind of a cool thing ... but, sigh, if only a comment about everyones favourtie NPC were that easy.

    It's not like BG was in particular need of ethnic people. We already had plenty non whites, even more if we include white non humans under ethnic.

    Is that really true? Maybe its just me, but, Valygar excluded, BG is about as white as they come. Anomen, Mazzy, Haer Dalise, Rassad et al, look, to my untrained eye at least, to have been pretty white washed.

    I feel those leaping to defend Hexxat and her progressive sexuality (a good thing) seem to be ignoring the fact that the new, black character is a crazy evil, murderous, thief, the EE Lord Gave, and the EE Lord Hath Taken Away.

  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    edited November 2013
    Viconia is rather black, Dynahair too, and Yoshimo is quite Asian.

    Post edited by Mungri on
    booinyoureyes
  • DisgruntlerDisgruntler Member Posts: 100
    edited November 2013
    Many NPCs aren't even human. You are counting Mazzy and Haer Dalis as caucasian.
    There are how many human NPCs in BG2?
    Minsk, Edwin, Valygar, Anomen, Joshimo, Keldorn, Sarevok, Nalia, Cernd. Of those one is black, one is asian and Nalia gets, if her default portrait is taken, a black woman as far as I know. Plus Valygar is member of Amns nobility and his family has been so for a long time. Cernd...looks pretty native american to me.
    That's pretty good for a pseudo medieval society with a majorly white population.

    Marky
  • AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 694
    edited November 2013
    I'd first point that saying hey, "it's great we've got a black lesbian" is about as racist as saying "Hey, it's great, we've got white straight characters" :D

    Second, yeah, I also have a problem with her portrait. Not that it isn't cool. it's just that's it's woefully cut when you compare it to vanilla portraits, giving it a "Poorly-modded portrait" feeling, IE.: it doesn't blend well with other portraits.

    I guess I'll just wait for her PaintBG portraits to be available...

    booinyoureyes
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 2,725
    Far too many people are taking the races and romances of the NPCs far too seriously as of late. Why is that? Those are relatively unimportant aspects of the game. If, however, you feel they are important then they are all things which can be resolved relatively easily. If you dislike a portrait then change it. If you want to romance an NPC then edit the variables to make it possible. If you don't want to romance an NPC then don't do it.

    Quartzjankiel
  • DarkDoggDarkDogg Member Posts: 598
    edited November 2013
    Mungri said:

    Viconia is rather black

    Vicky isn't black, she's dark blue :D
    She's definately a caucasian - aryian race type, eastern ethnicity. Could be even iranian.

  • AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 694
    DarkDogg said:

    Mungri said:

    Viconia is rather black

    Vicky isn't black, she's dark blue :D
    Just what I needed for my smurf fetish

    Basillicumbooinyoureyes
  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited November 2013
    shawne said:

    @Mornmagor: You're aware that the "hooded woman" pic was concept art, right? I mean, Dorn's portrait doesn't look like this either.

    @shawne

    Check out the "concept art" closely.

    You can see her neckwear, that appears in the portrait as well. It's her, the portrait was based on the concept art.

    Also, Dorn's concept art has the same armor that his portrait uses. It's just that he doesn't have his helmet on.

  • DarkDoggDarkDogg Member Posts: 598

    Many NPCs aren't even human. You are counting Mazzy and Haer Dalis as caucasian.
    There are how many human NPCs in BG2?
    Minsk, Edwin, Valygar, Anomen, Joshimo, Keldorn, Sarevok, Nalia, Cernd. Of those one is black, one is asian and Nalia gets, if her default portrait is taken, a black woman as far as I know. Plus Valygar is member of Amns nobility and his family has been so for a long time. Cernd...looks pretty native american to me.
    That's pretty good for a pseudo medieval society with a majorly white population.

    Mazzy is 100% colored. Like Halle Berry

  • marcerormarceror Member Posts: 577

    Even though I'm usually skeptical of cries of "that's racist," I have to admit that demanding to be able to keep the blank slate white girl instead of being 'forced' to take the strong, independent black lesbian does seem pretty racist.

    I love Hexxat in my evil party, but I could see wanting to save Clara. In my mind this has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with preventing a murder, particularly if your PC is good aligned/inclined.

    I'm not sure why anyone is talking about race at all? What does that have to do with anything?

    Markybooinyoureyes
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    edited November 2013
    Yea my first reaction to that was 'OMG YOU MONSTER .... DESTROY HEXXAT!!!!!11111' ...

    0 EXP given. Oh well, fuck that then, reload and keep her.

    Like the true Chaotic Neutral that I am. I only save people for my own benefit. If it wasnt for that lady in that tavern offering me a reward for saving some enthralled tiefling I found, I'd just stand there and ROFL at him, and maybe throw a few stones at him for amusement.

  • DarkDoggDarkDogg Member Posts: 598
    I haven't seen such dicsussions about Dynaheir and her race...

    Mermidionbooinyoureyes
  • marcerormarceror Member Posts: 577
    DarkDogg said:

    Mungri said:

    Viconia is rather black

    Vicky isn't black, she's dark blue :D
    She's definately a caucasian - aryian race type, eastern ethnicity. Could be even iranian.
    She's drow, and that means skin black as night. Even though her concept art is wrong in this regard, as a drow her skin should be darker than even Hexxat's.

    booinyoureyes
  • DisgruntlerDisgruntler Member Posts: 100
    edited November 2013
    DarkDogg said:

    I haven't seen such dicsussions about Dynaheir and her race...

    Because Dynaheir was put into the game before social justice was a thing on the internet.

    Post edited by Disgruntler on
    QuartzjankielFhtbtbooinyoureyes
  • MermidionMermidion Member Posts: 69
    Okay just to add my thoughts to this:
    Saying people don't like the new Hexxat and want to keep the clara-Hexxat just for Racistig/homophope reasons is just.....Dumb.

    I don't like the new Hexxat. Not because she is black.Its because i like Claras look more.i have nothing against black people but everytime i see hexxat she reminds me of a Giraffe.really long neck.
    Not-my-thing. I think everyone has the right to choose what he personally likes without being labeled a "racist"

    And about her being a lesbian. Meh.....i could not care less. For all i care Clara could also be bi or Gay if she was saveable.
    Since we have Dorn who is also a possibility for gay romance,i find it only fair that Female main chars get one too. You could take her or let her be.its all about having a choice.

    And speaking of such.I still think Clara should be saveable if they like her more. Because it would give People an actual choice to play with the NPC that they Prefer.
    I mean after all BG2EE while having a Multiplayer mode is still mostly a single Player game.Should not any Player play the game the way they like it without being forced to things they like not?
    i guess this is one of the main reasons why the modding community is so well liked.

    booinyoureyes
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    Mermidion said:

    I don't like the new Hexxat. Not because she is black.Its because i like Claras look more.i have nothing against black people but everytime i see hexxat she reminds me of a Giraffe.really long neck.

    If this is something that bothers you, you can always override her portrait. The filenames are OHHEXXL, OHHEXXM, and OHHEXXS.

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190


    Because Dynaheir was put into the game, before social justice was a thing on the internet.

    That, and nobody ever demanded Dynaheir be white-washed, or killed and replaced with a white chick.The implications for people demanding that of Hexxat are...unpleasant.
    GoldenEgg said:


    I feel those leaping to defend Hexxat and her progressive sexuality (a good thing) seem to be ignoring the fact that the new, black character is a crazy evil, murderous, thief, the EE Lord Gave, and the EE Lord Hath Taken Away.

    Well, she's not really crazy, I would say. She seems to know exactly what she's doing and has no difficulty discerning what is and is not reality. Thief is just a class. She's actually a treasure hunter by profession. Murderous? Well, you've got me there, though the line between murder and simply eating gets a bit blurred when you literally need to drink the blood of sentients to live. Valygar is also in the game, so we have the heroic character to balance out the wicked one.

  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    edited November 2013
    Okay, wait. I like Hexxat, the real Hexxat. But even I was disappointed when she joined (and I had let myself be spoiled, so I knew that the first one we meet wasn't real).

    It's not automatically racism or bigotry just because some folks were disappointed. For me, the problem was we saw that image from the trailer, where Clara was adventuring with the party. I drew my own conclusions about what that meant, what kind of person she would be, what her voice would sound like, what her ability scores would be, what weapons she would use, etc.. I would have been disappointed if I didn't like her personality, too. But the shock of finding out the NPC I thought was joining wasn't even real, it just felt WEIRD! My own fault? Absolutely. But I've stuck with Hexxat and I dig her. I think it's awesome that she's a lesbian. I like her personality so far. I don't love her voice set, but it's fine. We'll see how that develops, but she's grown on me.

    I think it perhaps would have been better for Overhaul to hide her complete. Kept her out of the trailer. When they released her portrait, it would have been better (in my opinion!) if they used a blank square or some kind of mysterious portrait. That way no one would have had any expectations beyond "Evil, pure thief." Then it would have really been a shock to get her. "What a weird voice set." Then find out Clara wasn't really Hexxat. There would have been less time between reveal and shock, less time to grow "attached" to her. Sure, folks would still want to save her, but I don't think as many people would feel disappointed.

    TL;DR - Disappointment is because we made assumptions about her and grew attached to her since we saw her portrait. Would have been less impactful if we never saw it.

    Quartz
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    @rdarken
    I'm not saying disappointment is bigotry. I'm disappointed she's female-exclusive given that my Evil CHARNAME is male. The demand to change the quest, on the other hand, is a step above disappointment, and seems pretty bigoted against one or more aspects of the character. Would there be as many demands for Clara if Clara was also Maztican/black and Hexxat was straight or bi? I submit that there would not.

  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    edited November 2013
    I do not disagree with you that the demand would decrease- not at all. I was just saying I can understand the disappointment to a degree. I definitely do not think you are wrong. I just don't think it's the case for all people.

    I don't know if I would use Clara (though they could take her in a direction we might not expect, like a different class - maybe her int or wis was suppressed because Hexxat was controlling her, which could also explain her thieving abilities), but even I wouldn't say no to a new NPC. I want LOTS OF NPCs!!

  • 22longZ22longZ Member Posts: 19
    In all honesty your comments @Schneidend tell us more about you than about anyone else. It seems to me the colour of the skin is of great importance to you. Quite bigotry, nah?

    booinyoureyes
  • MermidionMermidion Member Posts: 69

    @rdarken
    Would there be as many demands for Clara if Clara was also Maztican/black and Hexxat was straight or bi? I submit that there would not.

    i also have dorn in the party,which is basicly a black male.And Viconia who is also not white.I like them both and i think many others do too.
    Hey if you take the Clara Picture and changed her skin color to black i would still prefer over Hexxat,cause clara doesnt have such a ridiculous long neck



    If this is something that bothers you, you can always override her portrait. The filenames are OHHEXXL, OHHEXXM, and OHHEXXS.

    Thanks for the help.maybe i try swapping the pictures with clara.Hope that works with an aleady existing save.

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited November 2013

    I'm disappointed she's female-exclusive given that my Evil CHARNAME is male.

    1. Just because your evil CHARNAME is male doesn't mean you can't have the same kind of relationship with her that you'd have with, say, Korgan or Edwin.

    2. If you want to experience the romance, why not create an evil female CHARNAME for your next run? Take an all-women Evil/Neutral group with Jaheira, Neera, Hexxat, Viconia and Imoen, and play the story out a different way. :)

    The demand to change the quest, on the other hand, is a step above disappointment, and seems pretty bigoted against one or more aspects of the character. Would there be as many demands for Clara if Clara was also Maztican/black and Hexxat was straight or bi? I submit that there would not.

    Probably not. Really, it's just been an absolute flood of bigotry on all possible levels. Unfortunate, but sadly not unexpected.

    BTW: I thought Hexxat was Chultan? Or is that just her amulet?

This discussion has been closed.