Are the character-specific items meant to override Use Any Item?

Eudaemonium

Hey all,

Basically, I heard they added a new opcode that meant they could actually restrict items to specific characters. Like Valygar's Corthala Family Armour is now only usable by Valygar, Keldorn's Firecam Plate by Keldorn, etc. I just noticed on my Fighter-Thief that this new opcode overrides the Thief's Use Any Item ability. While the items no longer appear 'reddened' and thus appear ostensibly usable, you cannot equip them.

Basically, I'm asking if this is intentional behaviour? If it is intentional behaviour, how do I mod it so it isn't anymore?

ChildofBhaal599

hold on, this doesn't stop a thief using carsomyr, does it?

sorry first time i heard about this

Eudaemonium

I don't think so, since that isn't flagged as usable for a specific character. As far as I am aware it is just items that are supposed to be restricted to specific individuals, so Valygar and Keldorn's unique equipment, presumably Jaheira's Harper Pin, etc.

jackjack

I *think* it's limited to unique, NPC-associated items like the two armors mentioned above.

Mathsorcerer

You are correct--Item Usability, opcode 319. Setting IDS file = 11 allows you to set a script name in the resource field and restrict an item only to creatures which have that exact name. I haven't tested this against the thief high-level ability Use Any Item yet but someone else may already have.

There is an existing opcode, 180 = Can't Use Item, which also may or may not work with UAI. I don't recall anything using it before so maybe is was broken before BG2EE.

Eudaemonium

I can confirm that Valygar's armour cannot be equipped with UAI (this is what prompted the thread, sorry if I was unclear). I was just wondering whether the opcode overriding UAI was the intention or an unintended side-effect, and how one might remove this restriction.

Mungri

In the original game you could equip Valygar or Keldorns armour with UAI. I'd imagine this is a bug.

HandofTyr

Are monks unable to equip Keldorn's armor now too?

Eudaemonium

I would assume so.

Kithrixx

Use Any Item should do exactly what it says on the tin. I know that certain items are "balanced" to be only used by certain characters, but one of the major reasons you'd want to take a Thief class or secondary class is to get access to them.

Mathsorcerer

It was probably unintentional. Resolving the disconnect between opcode 319 and UAI is far beyond my capability but a workaround exists--edit the item to remove 319. *shrug*

smeagolheart

Kithrixx said:

Use Any Item should do exactly what it says on the tin. I know that certain items are "balanced" to be only used by certain characters, but one of the major reasons you'd want to take a Thief class or secondary class is to get access to them.

This.

It's not "Use Any Item except for the one's we want to arbitrarily tie to one individual NPC amongst the millions of NPCs found in the game"

Why isn't Longtooth Dagger (or whatever) only usable by Lord Peter Cornelius Longtooth then? Why isn't Shadow Dragon Armor only usable by a Shadow Dragon?

Eudaemonium

Mathsorcerer said:

It was probably unintentional. Resolving the disconnect between opcode 319 and UAI is far beyond my capability but a workaround exists--edit the item to remove 319. *shrug*

@Mathsorcerer: Can you tell me briefly how to do this? I have some working knowledge of NI and DLTCEP but I cannot see an effect for that specific opcode. I can see 319 in the item file but deleting it, saving the item without it and then consoling it in doesn't seem to change whether I can equip it or not.

Mathsorcerer

DLTCEP is often easier for editing items and spells so I will go there. Load npchan.item for the Corthala Family Armor, head over to the "equipping effects" tab, then scroll down until you see Item Usability (319). Remove that effect, save the item, and exit DLTCEP.
Now...the next part is new. Go to Near Infinity and find item_use.2da. Delete the line item listing for npchan, which also restricts the armor to being used by Valygar only, and save.
At this point in my test, my quickly-built ranger was still unable to use the armor--check the minimum stat flags and I noticed that his dexterity was not high enough.
Corrected that but he still couldn't use the armor. Some other hard coding restriction? *shrug*

I applied the "use any item" to my ranger, though, and now he is wearing the armor.

It was more work than I anticipated but I had never done that before.

update: I thought maybe some steps could be removed and I was correct. You need only remove the 319 opcode from the item, you don't have to worry about item_use.2da at all. I just tested this and a character with UAI can use the item. Well, in this case my test ranger couldn't because he isn't dextrous enough but that is the only restriction now.

So...remove opcode 319 and UAI should work perfectly.

Eudaemonium

@Mathsorcerer: Thank you! That worked like a dream. I didn't realise there was a .2da governing the item equipping.

Troodon80

To answer one of the original questions: this is intentional.

Second question: Yes, it can be modded to allow anyone to use the armour. If there are enough people who want the armour (or other NPC items) made available, then I can mod the whole lot in one go and upload them.

enneract

This really needs to be implemented on certain items like Carsomyr... the UAI justification is that thieves are clever and can figure out how to use anything, but imo that doesn't hold water when dealing with ancient holy artifacts and whatnot.

[Deleted User]

I don't think UAI should let you use the personal gear of your party members. Imagine going up to Keldorn and saying, 'Hey, mind if I borrow your family armor and the sword your deity gave you?' Those items are part of the benefit of having the character along with you, not something for you to twink out your charname. Just my opinion, naturally.

Eudaemonium

Well, I never use Valygar. I just murder him and take his stuff.

sunset00

Hm..the whole interest of UAI is precisely to be able to use normally not usable items;
i really hope they will not touch that..or would be totally stupid (totally nerfing UAI for thieves/bards).

Now..i could test a little that bug with an old BG2 save full of nice items..
i can confirm my old bard blade with UIA can't use Keldorn/Valygar armor (at first, say stats are not the same dex, con or cha.. but later, even after a EEKeeper modification to match the minimal stats of Keldorn/Valyfar..just say 'not compatible'^) , etc....especially the Valygar one was apparently nice for him att hat time, 'cause that's the one he was wearing on that save..but no more working now..

I can confirm, on the other hand, he can always perfectly use items like Helm of Balduran (very useful for him even then), Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization (mainly for fighters apparently - +1/2ATT, etc, extremely useful..even better than the bards special wondrous gloves..that have no +1/2ATT..), Carsomyr (LG paladin only - though pointless on him, dualH mainly..), Scarlet Ninja-to (monk only - always useful +1ATT +3 scimetar..with Crom Faeyr in the other hand^), etc.

On the other hand... can't use either Valygar blade (Valygar only too..), other NPCs special weapons (Haer'Dalis, etc), etc... now, Mazzys weapons (Arvoreen bow/short sword - halflings only normally) seem to be ok...

i just don't get the limitation on those NPCs armors/weapons though (was OK in original BG2 too.. of course).. makes no sense..especially on the weapons (a bow is a bow, a sword is a sword..though of course, those ones becomes clearly obsolete at the end of SoA and in ToB.. but yet).

Would be even dumber to extend the limitation of UAI on other items though.. as such, seems more like a bug than anything else anyway.. another one so.. (sigh) ....

Ryofu

Troodon80 said:

To answer one of the original questions: this is intentional.

Second question: Yes, it can be modded to allow anyone to use the armour. If there are enough people who want the armour (or other NPC items) made available, then I can mod the whole lot in one go and upload them.

Yes pls

a mod like that would be greatly appreciated

sunset00

@Ryofu agreed..though that should not even be a mod.. but the default behaviour with UAI -like the original - no need to touch that here - 'when ain't broken, don't fix it', they say../^).

ps;
@Eudaemonium well.. high levels Valygar seems to be a great 2handed dude actually/.. in my old save, looked pretty bad ass with Celestial fury & i don't know what..plus insect plague spells possible too, etc.. plus stealth/backstabsx7 with np/etc.. looked good..even with another armor..*/^^

Eudaemonium

Oh, I don't doubt that Valygar is a good NPC. I plan to use him on a future run, its just I have always murdered him, taken his stuff and thrown his lifeless body at a door.

Also: backstabx7? i think you mean x3.

sunset00

@Eudaemonium nope nope, lv19, ~3500000xp, he had/has x7 apparently (just reverified right now) -! Though.. reading now the kit stats, should be x4 indeed..hm, not sure if another bug or a problem with the old save conversion..who knows now with the new ee versions.. O_o -!?

Mathsorcerer

From a role-playing point of view neither good- nor neutral-aligned characters would murder Anomen for his shield or Nalia for her ring. Evil parties...well, they suffer from no such limitation--you can cut down Keldorn in the Government district in front of both his house and city guards and no one so much as blinks.

From a technical and game-playing point of view, this was merely an exercise to discover why UAI doesn't work like it used to and now we know--opcode 319.

*Can* you get the NPC equipment for yourself? Yes, easily. *Should* you get the NPC equipment for yourself? *shrug* That is entirely up to the individual player.

Mungri

If this was intentional then it is wrong. Look up what the word 'any' means and the description for UAI and fix it.

nsr

Mungri said:

If this was intentional then it is wrong. Look up what the word 'any' means and the description for UAI and fix it.

You're right. The fix for this must be to update the name of the HLA to be "Use Almost Any Item"

[Deleted User]

nsr said:

Mungri said:

If this was intentional then it is wrong. Look up what the word 'any' means and the description for UAI and fix it.

You're right. The fix for this must be to update the name of the HLA to be "Use Almost Any Item"

How about 'Use Any Item That Won't Cause A Deity To Come Down A Celestial Stairway And Turn You Into A Stain On The Floor'?

Sharn

Rasaad's boots or Keldorn's armor for example are hardly epic relics imbued by a diety and delivered directly to the hands of said individual. Besides, deities in the FR setting aren't really worthy of their title, there are some mortals who would become weaker by becoming deities.

[Deleted User]

Sharn said:

Rasaad's boots or Keldorn's armor for example are hardly epic relics imbued by a diety and delivered directly to the hands of said individual. Besides, deities in the FR setting aren't really worthy of their title, there are some mortals who would become weaker by becoming deities.

I hear what you're saying, but it just sounds like 'blah blah people want to use this special item in a way that wasn't intended blah blah'. It's obvious that the game designers don't want other people using those character-specific items, especially since the EE has new and improved code to prevent it, even more stringently than vanilla.

Mungri

Actually the game designers did want people to be able to use any item with use any item.

That is the original developers, not Beamdog. They also wanted the game to be saveable while enraged or under Spirit Armour, but beamdog thought it better to prevent you from saving for two hours because you might die from a little tiny damage.