I didn't finshed SoA with Dorn, so i don't know exactly in which terms will his quest end @Shawne, but Dorn from the begin to me sounded as someone that will do whatever to achieve power. His request to Hexxat to embrace him in vampirism was an good example in BG2 EE.
Even in my begin with dorn's quest i can notice that his frustation lies in too low benefits for too much requests from his actual patron.
Read the OP again - Dorn has the choice of staying with his patron, betraying his patron for another patron, or forfeiting his blackguard powers altogether. None of those choices would allow him to petition Demogorgon (or any other demon for that matter).
Read the OP again - Dorn has the choice of staying with his patron, betraying his patron for another patron, or forfeiting his blackguard powers altogether. None of those choices would allow him to petition Demogorgon (or any other demon for that matter).
Hmmm, you got it simple to me, i see now what will happen. Well if he can keep his patron or even betraying his patron for another, what hold him from make this again with Demogorgon? That's my view of things at least, i believe not everyone share my feelings on this issue.
Read the OP again - Dorn has the choice of staying with his patron, betraying his patron for another patron, or forfeiting his blackguard powers altogether. None of those choices would allow him to petition Demogorgon (or any other demon for that matter).
Hmmm, you got it simple to me, i see now what will happen. Well if he can keep his patron or even betraying his patron for another, what hold him from make this again with Demogorgon? That's my view of things at least, i believe not everyone share my feelings on this issue.
The entire quest is made possible by the fact that Azothet and Ur-Gathoz are enemies to begin with. Demogorgon, on the other hand, has no interest in the matter, besides maybe squishing both of them for the lulz (granted, he'd squish Azothet no matter what, what with the Blood War 'n such).
Also, the Blackguard 'pact' isn't something any demon or devil will enter into, since it means an investment of power in someone on another plane of existence. There are two reasons are demon or devil will enter into a pact: 1) The soul (which could be applied to Demogorgon, but read on) 2) A stand-in/puppet/minion in the mortal realm, who could see to whatever interests the contract holder had there.
As a rule, demons and devils actually have a rather hard time (depending on the setting, house rules and so on) getting into the Prime Material Plane (PMP) - especially if they want to do so undetected, and with all their powers intact (which they almost always do, as anything else leaves them somewhat vulnerable). The power part becomes extremely important in cases of very powerful or very known outsiders.
Somehow, Demogorgon had been bound, in a physical form, in the PMP. This was never a good idea.
Now, seeing as he/she/it was already there, and presumably had no plans of returning to the Abyss any time soon, why would it *want* to enter a contract?
Sure, it could lie about it and make promises - but upholding them? Nah. It was always planning on murdering everyone and everything who was even remotely near its prison when it got out.
Besides, it doesn't need extra servants - it has an entire plane of demons it can summon, at will.
It should also be kept in mind the Demogorgon is, what, the most powerful single Demon listed in FR lore (not counting Devils), or is he only the 2nd ranked? I forget.
If a frame of reference is needed, think Mephisto in NWN HotU - silly as that expansion is, it still hit the spot on what exactly a Demon/Devil prince would want to do on the Prime, if somehow it managed to trick its way past every safeguard, deity and adventurer standing guard.
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On the whole, I've always found Watcher's Keep to be somewhat disturbing - was Helm drunk when he decided on the location of the prison, or what? - So rather than doing 'what-ifs' and 'it-could-be-so-awesome-ifs', I've treated the dungeon as an xp and item grind.
I know Charname is badass and stuff, but the only reason I can tolerate the fact that you get the chance to murder-kill Demogorgons avatar, is that 1) you know, going in, that you won't be killing Demogorgon itself. It most likely can't be done on the PMP. And 2) After going through 5 levels of baddies, knowing something nasty was waiting at the end, it better damn well be something I will recognize as being damn nasty, and Demogorgon does that job very well indeed.
EDIT: Also, to Kamuizin: The above isn't meant to denigrate your oppinion on the matter. I'm fairly certain there's a bunch of very good Dm's out there, who'd have let you do the pact in the situation. And taking into account all the other stuff you get to do in ToB, it isn't all that unreasonable to expect a pact with Demogorgon. The above was meant, primarily, as a frame of reference from the point of view of not allowing such a pact.
@Jerrin, while i respect you line of thoughts, i have to say that i don't see the things that way.
1° - Demogorgon is already physically in the prime (yes, it's an avatar of his of course) 2° - He want to get out of that prision. 3° - He would negotiate for this. 4° - Devils and Demons make blackguards to have an active hand in the prime without having to spend a lot of energy going there to do their biddings. Don't take me wrong, any demon would rejoice at any opportunity of get in the prime, but if they can bring havoc from afar, they will surelly do it. 5° - Watcher's keep is meant to be made in ToB, where most of the characters are above level 25, and normally are 28+ when they reach the bottom of Watcher's Keep. An too high blackguard would deserve an true demon lord for patronage 6° - Above 3.000.000 xp, most of the mortals are already reaching a godlike status, any blackguard at this level would be an extremly addition, even to a demon prince. 6° - if not dorn, offer patronage to an blackguard son/daughter of bhaal that will probally become the next lord of murderer is probally an covenant for an very possible middle power deity allied with him, i see no disadvantages for Demogorgon in offer patronage to an main char blackguard and a LOT of opportunities. 7° - While dorn isn't the best choice, it's nonetheless a link to the future lord of murder, an very powerful ally to have in the abyss.
This could be done by fooling Helm. Demogorgon would blur Helm's vision to not know what happened inside the prision, the party would destroy the scroll or give it to Demogorgon that could fake the effects of the scroll from inside.
Demogorgon would get eventually his freedom as long the main char and/or Dorn keep silent and left alive to avoid drag suspictions, would set an history based on truth (after use the first scroll in the vanilla, the prision is still opened enough for main char and the party leave with Demogorgon help).
About Charname being able to kill Demogorgon, i see that as totally possible, charname would be already in godhood patch even without his blood in the level he is.
For any who may run across this in the future here are your options and rewards/outcomes in their simplest form.
1. Summon Ur-Gothoz, kill him, keep Azothet as patron. No extra items.
2. Summon Ur-Gothoz, kill him, kill Azothet, lose Blackguard powers. Get Azothet's scimitar+3. Dorn is "free".
3. Summon Azothet, kill her, kill Ur-Gothoz, lose Blackguard powers. Get Azothet's scimitar+3. Dorn is "free".
4. Summon Azothet, kill her, Ur-Gothoz appears, tell him your deeds, get Azothet scimitar+3 and special Mask/helm from Ur-Gothoz
Additionally, killing Ur-Gothoz makes the Abyssal blade get +5 slashing vs. devils. Killing Azothet gives you +5 vs. demons. Killing both Ur-Gothoz and Azothet gives you both.
Personally I chose option 4 aka "The ol' Triple Cross" but if for RP would probably have chosen to kill them both and let Dorn be freed.
I had him kill both monstrosities and free himself from their grasp. I immedietly regretted it dearly when I realized that his blaggard powers are gone, but I decided to nut up. But when the githyanki in Watcher's Keep dropped that rockin' sword and he was unable to use it, I just swapped him for Sarevok and never looked back, as Dorn essentialy became just a nerfed pure class fighter at this stage, a liability for my team.
Did give up your patrons? As far as I know the fallen paladins are always a one way system. Dorn feels slightly different because he has a patron that gives him the power. So could get his power back?
I chose Ur-Gothoz because the helm is just too damn good
@Jenzafar : it doesn't. But to link it with a wider universe than just SoA/ToB advice you to play BP2 before. I won't spoil you more but his epilogue is linked with one of the BP2 NPC
I had high hopes as soon as i recruited Dorn and he showed signs of being tired of he's patron's non-stopping demands, that I, the almighty slayer and son to the freakin' Lord of murder, could be the new patron. Dissapointed.
If you summon Ur-Gothoz first at the Gorge and kill him, you'll have a chance to keep Dorn's powers...
Not to commit threadcromancy, but I would really like to hear this expanded, as I dislike having terrible fighter dorn instead of awesome blackguard dorn.
Not to commit threadcromancy, but I would really like to hear this expanded, as I dislike having terrible fighter dorn instead of awesome blackguard dorn.
Lol, you've committed pretty severe threadromancy!
Nevertheless, since you ask ...
... if you first summon Ur-Gothoz and kill him, then you've still got the choice either to summon and kill Azothet as well (which leaves Dorn "free" but severely nerfed because it permanently strips him of all his Blackguard powers) or to leave Azothet alive and have Dorn accept Azothet as his new patron in place of Ur-Gothoz (which leaves Dorn still a fully-functioning Blackguard).
IMO, the former choice makes no story sense at all, but changing patron is somewhat more credible.
@TheWhitefire : I would just mention a third option:
Summon Azothet, kill her and bind her in your sword. Ur'Gothoz will appear and reward you with a very, very nice helmet, and you will keep your Blackguard powers
Initially I went for the double doublecross but the Fallen status makes Dorn unusable.
As much as it pains me to say it, I went the powergaming option, killed Azothet and stayed with Ur-Gothoz until Dorn can become MY BLACKGUARD WHEN I ASCEND!
Initially I went for the double doublecross but the Fallen status makes Dorn unusable.
As much as it pains me to say it, I went the powergaming option, killed Azothet and stayed with Ur-Gothoz until Dorn can become MY BLACKGUARD WHEN I ASCEND!
Technically speaking, Dorn being Neutral Evil, the powergaming option is also the roleplay option since NE characters want nothing but power.
Actually, that might be a pretty good idea for a mod. You can have Dorn draw dark power from your own Divine Essence instead of relying on some mid-level Fiendish peons.
That would be AWESOME. Also, kinda what I thought might happen if I bound both into the sword. I thought he'd keep his blaggard powers simply by drawing them from the sword itself, or perhaps from my own evilness. Sadly not.
Comments
Even in my begin with dorn's quest i can notice that his frustation lies in too low benefits for too much requests from his actual patron.
Also, the Blackguard 'pact' isn't something any demon or devil will enter into, since it means an investment of power in someone on another plane of existence.
There are two reasons are demon or devil will enter into a pact:
1) The soul (which could be applied to Demogorgon, but read on)
2) A stand-in/puppet/minion in the mortal realm, who could see to whatever interests the contract holder had there.
As a rule, demons and devils actually have a rather hard time (depending on the setting, house rules and so on) getting into the Prime Material Plane (PMP) - especially if they want to do so undetected, and with all their powers intact (which they almost always do, as anything else leaves them somewhat vulnerable). The power part becomes extremely important in cases of very powerful or very known outsiders.
Somehow, Demogorgon had been bound, in a physical form, in the PMP. This was never a good idea.
Now, seeing as he/she/it was already there, and presumably had no plans of returning to the Abyss any time soon, why would it *want* to enter a contract?
Sure, it could lie about it and make promises - but upholding them? Nah. It was always planning on murdering everyone and everything who was even remotely near its prison when it got out.
Besides, it doesn't need extra servants - it has an entire plane of demons it can summon, at will.
It should also be kept in mind the Demogorgon is, what, the most powerful single Demon listed in FR lore (not counting Devils), or is he only the 2nd ranked? I forget.
If a frame of reference is needed, think Mephisto in NWN HotU - silly as that expansion is, it still hit the spot on what exactly a Demon/Devil prince would want to do on the Prime, if somehow it managed to trick its way past every safeguard, deity and adventurer standing guard.
-
On the whole, I've always found Watcher's Keep to be somewhat disturbing - was Helm drunk when he decided on the location of the prison, or what? - So rather than doing 'what-ifs' and 'it-could-be-so-awesome-ifs', I've treated the dungeon as an xp and item grind.
I know Charname is badass and stuff, but the only reason I can tolerate the fact that you get the chance to murder-kill Demogorgons avatar, is that 1) you know, going in, that you won't be killing Demogorgon itself. It most likely can't be done on the PMP. And 2) After going through 5 levels of baddies, knowing something nasty was waiting at the end, it better damn well be something I will recognize as being damn nasty, and Demogorgon does that job very well indeed.
EDIT: Also, to Kamuizin: The above isn't meant to denigrate your oppinion on the matter. I'm fairly certain there's a bunch of very good Dm's out there, who'd have let you do the pact in the situation. And taking into account all the other stuff you get to do in ToB, it isn't all that unreasonable to expect a pact with Demogorgon.
The above was meant, primarily, as a frame of reference from the point of view of not allowing such a pact.
1° - Demogorgon is already physically in the prime (yes, it's an avatar of his of course)
2° - He want to get out of that prision.
3° - He would negotiate for this.
4° - Devils and Demons make blackguards to have an active hand in the prime without having to spend a lot of energy going there to do their biddings. Don't take me wrong, any demon would rejoice at any opportunity of get in the prime, but if they can bring havoc from afar, they will surelly do it.
5° - Watcher's keep is meant to be made in ToB, where most of the characters are above level 25, and normally are 28+ when they reach the bottom of Watcher's Keep. An too high blackguard would deserve an true demon lord for patronage
6° - Above 3.000.000 xp, most of the mortals are already reaching a godlike status, any blackguard at this level would be an extremly addition, even to a demon prince.
6° - if not dorn, offer patronage to an blackguard son/daughter of bhaal that will probally become the next lord of murderer is probally an covenant for an very possible middle power deity allied with him, i see no disadvantages for Demogorgon in offer patronage to an main char blackguard and a LOT of opportunities.
7° - While dorn isn't the best choice, it's nonetheless a link to the future lord of murder, an very powerful ally to have in the abyss.
This could be done by fooling Helm. Demogorgon would blur Helm's vision to not know what happened inside the prision, the party would destroy the scroll or give it to Demogorgon that could fake the effects of the scroll from inside.
Demogorgon would get eventually his freedom as long the main char and/or Dorn keep silent and left alive to avoid drag suspictions, would set an history based on truth (after use the first scroll in the vanilla, the prision is still opened enough for main char and the party leave with Demogorgon help).
About Charname being able to kill Demogorgon, i see that as totally possible, charname would be already in godhood patch even without his blood in the level he is.
1. Summon Ur-Gothoz, kill him, keep Azothet as patron. No extra items.
2. Summon Ur-Gothoz, kill him, kill Azothet, lose Blackguard powers. Get Azothet's scimitar+3. Dorn is "free".
3. Summon Azothet, kill her, kill Ur-Gothoz, lose Blackguard powers. Get Azothet's scimitar+3. Dorn is "free".
4. Summon Azothet, kill her, Ur-Gothoz appears, tell him your deeds, get Azothet scimitar+3 and special Mask/helm from Ur-Gothoz
Additionally, killing Ur-Gothoz makes the Abyssal blade get +5 slashing vs. devils. Killing Azothet gives you +5 vs. demons. Killing both Ur-Gothoz and Azothet gives you both.
Personally I chose option 4 aka "The ol' Triple Cross" but if for RP would probably have chosen to kill them both and let Dorn be freed.
they acquire the paladin stronghold by killing firkraag or perform all the paladin stronghold subquests
Havent seen anyone post +5 good aligned, maybe because that is base on the sword.
Does he behave differently/say different things (like how Anomen is a bit different if he passes/fails his test?)
@Jenzafar : it doesn't. But to link it with a wider universe than just SoA/ToB advice you to play BP2 before. I won't spoil you more but his epilogue is linked with one of the BP2 NPC
Nevertheless, since you ask ...
IMO, the former choice makes no story sense at all, but changing patron is somewhat more credible.
Summon Azothet, kill her and bind her in your sword. Ur'Gothoz will appear and reward you with a very, very nice helmet, and you will keep your Blackguard powers
As much as it pains me to say it, I went the powergaming option, killed Azothet and stayed with Ur-Gothoz until Dorn can become MY BLACKGUARD WHEN I ASCEND!
I still would love to have demogorgon to give an lvl 20+ dorn patronage.