Isn't it bad for him to lose his powers? ARen't you gonna get just a nerfed character that is almost useless to the sake of roleplaying? No sane (especially if evil) charname would make him lose his power if there is no payoff.
@Arthas this is what you'd say knowing what will happen if you seal them both. When I first played this I just sealed them both, went on for a while and then noticed he no longer had any blackguard powers. I first thought my rep was too high (since he was tagged "Fallen" much like Rangers and Paladins), then I realised why it was thus. Of course, an Evil character that actually knows what will happen if he seals both would not seal both, but a clueless Evil character might take this path and it makes perfect sense roleplay-wise, however frustrating it can be.
For the record, I ditched him after realising that. My Evil PC would not tolerate a weakling.
@Arthas this is what you'd say knowing what will happen if you seal them both. When I first played this I just sealed them both, went on for a while and then noticed he no longer had any blackguard powers. I first thought my rep was too high (since he was tagged "Fallen" much like Rangers and Paladins), then I realised why it was thus. Of course, an Evil character that actually knows what will happen if he seals both would not seal both, but a clueless Evil character might take this path and it makes perfect sense roleplay-wise, however frustrating it can be.
For the record, I ditched him after realising that. My Evil PC would not tolerate a weakling.
Ok, a metagaming would not seal.
Normal play would seal, see that dorn became a pussy and drop him for another character, thus killing the prupose of his existence as an NPC.
I understand the devs on this, but fallen blackguard sucks, they should at least change the character to a barbarian class, or improve the story so in chapter 4 foward Dorn get special items, receive special powers or boosts in his stats only if he's fallen blackguard.
Still, again i say, he should be able to cut a deal with Demogorgon and become his Blackguard on ToB (or after a specific level).
@Arthas this is what you'd say knowing what will happen if you seal them both. When I first played this I just sealed them both, went on for a while and then noticed he no longer had any blackguard powers. I first thought my rep was too high (since he was tagged "Fallen" much like Rangers and Paladins), then I realised why it was thus. Of course, an Evil character that actually knows what will happen if he seals both would not seal both, but a clueless Evil character might take this path and it makes perfect sense roleplay-wise, however frustrating it can be.
For the record, I ditched him after realising that. My Evil PC would not tolerate a weakling.
Ok, a metagaming would not seal.
Normal play would seal, see that dorn became a pussy and drop him for another character, thus killing the prupose of his existence as an NPC.
I understand the devs on this, but fallen blackguard sucks, they should at least change the character to a barbarian class, or improve the story so in chapter 4 foward Dorn get special items, receive special powers or boosts in his stats only if he's fallen blackguard.
Still, again i say, he should be able to cut a deal with Demogorgon and become his Blackguard on ToB (or after a specific level).
The "normal" play would not necessarily be sealing both and ditching Dorn. A LE character would not seal both, and if he does, he would not ditch Dorn.
As for what could have been done, well, many games lack some developments that would have been good, but luckily enough BG2 is moddable and this can be solved.
Haven't gotten this far with Dorn, but it seems like giving up Blackguard powers for a slight boost in power against some enemies is not worth it. At least give the man grandmastery with two-handed swords for his trouble. At that point he would be Serevok 2.0 but still.
I like @kamuizin 's idea of at least switching him to a barbarian to get some use out of him at that stage in the game. I like the ability for him to forsake his Blackguard powers in terms of RPing, but he's got to have some gain to keep him viable through TOB.
At least give the man grandmastery with two-handed swords for his trouble. At that point he would be Serevok 2.0 but still.
I like @kamuizin 's idea of at least switching him to a barbarian to get some use out of him at that stage in the game.
It seems to me that he is enough OP like he is and is supposed to be the evil version of a paladin. Paladins don't get GM or the d12 and other advantages of a barbarian if they fall, why should he? I am not 100% sure as my pallies never fall, but I think that a paladin falling loose the ability of using the paladin only sword, Dorn gets a new sword for free falling.
If you fail to see the usefulness of an NPC with his stats (with the machine of Lum and 2 items can have 20/18/18 for 8 hours each day, without even touching a str enhancing item) probably you fail to see the usefulness of almost all the other NPCs, as they don't get gamebreaking illegal things. Excluding Edvin, with his amulet that grants 18 spells on top of the 9 he have as kitted, Hexxat, with her 20str and uber stats total, Viconia with her MR and Sarewok, with his uber stats and special attack. All evil NPCs. People was lamenting that in the original game "evil" players had few choices, that the game was too "good" player oriented, Now, with the old and new evil NPCs and the freedom to chose what you want in the hell trials we have to wander why to play a good oriented Charname. And you want even more.
Imo mod it, take EEkeeper and give to Dorn both GM and Barbarian HP and bonuses. You will be happy, I will be happy and everyone will be happy, as long as we allow to the other players to enjoy their game the way they like. And you can even do it without him falling, but upgrading the sword, as has been told.
At least give the man grandmastery with two-handed swords for his trouble. At that point he would be Serevok 2.0 but still.
I like @kamuizin 's idea of at least switching him to a barbarian to get some use out of him at that stage in the game.
It seems to me that he is enough OP like he is and is supposed to be the evil version of a paladin. Paladins don't get GM or the d12 and other advantages of a barbarian if they fall, why should he? I am not 100% sure as my pallies never fall, but I think that a paladin falling loose the ability of using the paladin only sword, Dorn gets a new sword for free falling.
This is a good POV that I did not consider. If Keldorn or Charname were to fall from being a Paladin they would not be able to get Grandmastery or another class kit. Point well made.
At least give the man grandmastery with two-handed swords for his trouble. At that point he would be Serevok 2.0 but still.
I like @kamuizin 's idea of at least switching him to a barbarian to get some use out of him at that stage in the game.
It seems to me that he is enough OP like he is and is supposed to be the evil version of a paladin. Paladins don't get GM or the d12 and other advantages of a barbarian if they fall, why should he? I am not 100% sure as my pallies never fall, but I think that a paladin falling loose the ability of using the paladin only sword, Dorn gets a new sword for free falling.
If you fail to see the usefulness of an NPC with his stats (with the machine of Lum and 2 items can have 20/18/18 for 8 hours each day, without even touching a str enhancing item) probably you fail to see the usefulness of almost all the other NPCs, as they don't get gamebreaking illegal things. Excluding Edvin, with his amulet that grants 18 spells on top of the 9 he have as kitted, Hexxat, with her 20str and uber stats total, Viconia with her MR and Sarewok, with his uber stats and special attack. All evil NPCs. People was lamenting that in the original game "evil" players had few choices, that the game was too "good" player oriented, Now, with the old and new evil NPCs and the freedom to chose what you want in the hell trials we have to wander why to play a good oriented Charname. And you want even more.
Imo mod it, take EEkeeper and give to Dorn both GM and Barbarian HP and bonuses. You will be happy, I will be happy and everyone will be happy, as long as we allow to the other players to enjoy their game the way they like. And you can even do it without him falling, but upgrading the sword, as has been told.
The fail of most paladins are penalties of misbehaviors, a lack of attention to your good alignment (LG for paladins, any good for rangers).
Dorn fallen status is linked to a quest choice and appears as the better choice storywise. If BG game was made in the PnP table, dorn triple cross would be very fun to deal and many opportunities would probally become avaliable laters, based on the GM will.
In BG computer game you end with an crippled blackguard, someone that has no advantages anymore but is less than a Warrior. If you reach ToB with a full party, guess who's out for Sarevok come in? That amount of trouble in the quest to become less is just not worth it.
To end, most of the characters are crazy overpowered in BG, and that's a good thing. This game goes until you choose to become a god or no. No way a peasant status group will reach this feat. This is much more realistic than the crazy high level you get in IWD with a random group that meet inside an esthavan tavern for the first time.
@kamuizin Dorn fallen status is linked to a quest choice, and a very tricky one, Imo to make pacts with demons/devils, to accept their patronage to seek personal power, and eventually to betray them, is not supposed to be an easy thing. You can succeed, and with the correct choices he can maintain Blackguard status and have the sword improved. But there are also great chances to fail, to loose instead of winning. And seeing with who He is making pacts I would say that being alive at the end is success, not a loose... That for the RP aspect.
As in game balance, if such a thing is important: Not all the characters are crazy overpowered in BG, most of the people is happy to drop Valygar, a kitted ranger, or Minsc, a ranger with an illegal rage ability, to take Sarewok. Some players are also happy to drop Keldorn, with his sword and dispel ability, or Korgan, a proper fighter with shorty bonuses and kit. Sarewok is OP, with his stats and special attack, that is the reason, the others are just not as OP as him.
A fallen Dorn is not underpowered compared to a Minsc or Valygar, even to Keldorn. Good stats, better than average NPC, well allocated. He is much powerful than a fallen Keldorn. And less powerful than Sarewok or Korgan, but there is a good reason for that, they are Warriors, he is a (fallen) Paladin. And as fallen is not supposed to have bonuses for falling. No other NPC have them.
And the Blackguard kit is OP, poison weapon and all the other things, a charname with Sarewok's stats and Blackguard kit can be crazy powerful. But this don't make a fallen Dorn underpowered, is only no more OP like he was before, no more OP compared to the other NPCs that have fighting capability without being fighters (so without GM), but also not underpowered.
@gorgonzola, the old BG game had a singular rule, evil characters were made to be overpower.
That's because the Old BG never wished you to play evil. To do evil quests was a failure on the old times. The point on those times were to take an evil character inside a good party with the penalty of never let reputation bypass 18 (or the evil character leaves).
This changed on EE now days (a bit at least), but the remnants of the old time are still there: Every evil character is overpowered.
Edwin has an amulet of cheat cheese that give him +2 spell slots for every spell level (i mean, EVERY spell level, including 9° circle).
Viconia is a cleric with 19 Dex, 18 Wis and 65% basic magic resistance
Korgan was a killing machine, the best fighter of SoA, and pretty equivalent to Sarevok, that on old BG, was the last and, again, stupidy powerful evil joinable character.
Among these evil characters, Dorn is normal, and fallen blackguard dorn can't keep his ground, just that.
You forget one, Charname, that is OP as he can chose what he want in the hell trials with no consequence. And also the other new evil NPC, Hexxat, with her natural STR and super stats, goes in the same pool of OP characters. But in the past you could have evil characters in good party with few incompatibility problems, like Viky and Keldorn, and almost no evil NPC quest was a problem. Now the Dorn and Hexxat quests are quite problematic for a good Charname, is really difficult to RP them. And in all the quests a reason is given to play evil, money. You have almost every time the choice to ask money, and doing it you loose only a little XP. You are free to be hired by Nalia, for money, save her castle, get the loot and xp, and then slaughter her, the aunt, the captain and the majordomo. Or to save Haer Dalis, for money, then follow him in the planar prison, for adventure and possible loot, and then if you want kill him, but as he is neutral you don't have to. You are RPing an evil one with no problem or real disadvantage. Now you can have the OP evil characters, with Dorn that is a good replacement for Keldorn in the role of paladin, and RP evil may be better than as you can RP good. You loose only the chance to have Aerie, that can be very strong, but you have Viky for the role. Is true that fallen blackguard dorn can't keep his ground, but the reason why he fall is not like the ones that can make fall Keldorn or fail Anomen. Keldorn falls if he RP evil, if the rep goes too low. Dorn succeed or fail being evil, he falls because is not enough smart to take the right evil choice. It has nothing to do with RP good or evil. He is evil and overpower, has the chance to become more powerful being evil, and to loose the kit if is not enough smart. If you are not smart you pay for it, only the strong and smart ones deserve a bonus, the weak and stupid deserve a punishment. That is the evil way. Why you want to forgive him, if he fails in his goals, and give him a consolation, like an illegal GM or barbarian bonuses? that would be a good way, the good ones forgive. Let him fail, and then kill him "you really disappointed me Dorn, with all that talking of getting more power you dare to come here fallen? Now you will feel what the power is, DIE WEAK ONE!".
Comments
Of course, an Evil character that actually knows what will happen if he seals both would not seal both, but a clueless Evil character might take this path and it makes perfect sense roleplay-wise, however frustrating it can be.
For the record, I ditched him after realising that. My Evil PC would not tolerate a weakling.
Normal play would seal, see that dorn became a pussy and drop him for another character, thus killing the prupose of his existence as an NPC.
I understand the devs on this, but fallen blackguard sucks, they should at least change the character to a barbarian class, or improve the story so in chapter 4 foward Dorn get special items, receive special powers or boosts in his stats only if he's fallen blackguard.
Still, again i say, he should be able to cut a deal with Demogorgon and become his Blackguard on ToB (or after a specific level).
As for what could have been done, well, many games lack some developments that would have been good, but luckily enough BG2 is moddable and this can be solved.
I like @kamuizin 's idea of at least switching him to a barbarian to get some use out of him at that stage in the game. I like the ability for him to forsake his Blackguard powers in terms of RPing, but he's got to have some gain to keep him viable through TOB.
Sometimes you need to win to lose. Or lose to win.
That's what Dorn's quest is about. He was a slave of his power and needed to get rid of it to be free.
Paladins don't get GM or the d12 and other advantages of a barbarian if they fall, why should he?
I am not 100% sure as my pallies never fall, but I think that a paladin falling loose the ability of using the paladin only sword, Dorn gets a new sword for free falling.
If you fail to see the usefulness of an NPC with his stats (with the machine of Lum and 2 items can have 20/18/18 for 8 hours each day, without even touching a str enhancing item) probably you fail to see the usefulness of almost all the other NPCs, as they don't get gamebreaking illegal things. Excluding Edvin, with his amulet that grants 18 spells on top of the 9 he have as kitted, Hexxat, with her 20str and uber stats total, Viconia with her MR and Sarewok, with his uber stats and special attack. All evil NPCs. People was lamenting that in the original game "evil" players had few choices, that the game was too "good" player oriented, Now, with the old and new evil NPCs and the freedom to chose what you want in the hell trials we have to wander why to play a good oriented Charname. And you want even more.
Imo mod it, take EEkeeper and give to Dorn both GM and Barbarian HP and bonuses. You will be happy, I will be happy and everyone will be happy, as long as we allow to the other players to enjoy their game the way they like. And you can even do it without him falling, but upgrading the sword, as has been told.
Dorn fallen status is linked to a quest choice and appears as the better choice storywise. If BG game was made in the PnP table, dorn triple cross would be very fun to deal and many opportunities would probally become avaliable laters, based on the GM will.
In BG computer game you end with an crippled blackguard, someone that has no advantages anymore but is less than a Warrior. If you reach ToB with a full party, guess who's out for Sarevok come in? That amount of trouble in the quest to become less is just not worth it.
To end, most of the characters are crazy overpowered in BG, and that's a good thing. This game goes until you choose to become a god or no. No way a peasant status group will reach this feat. This is much more realistic than the crazy high level you get in IWD with a random group that meet inside an esthavan tavern for the first time.
Dorn fallen status is linked to a quest choice, and a very tricky one, Imo to make pacts with demons/devils, to accept their patronage to seek personal power, and eventually to betray them, is not supposed to be an easy thing. You can succeed, and with the correct choices he can maintain Blackguard status and have the sword improved. But there are also great chances to fail, to loose instead of winning. And seeing with who He is making pacts I would say that being alive at the end is success, not a loose...
That for the RP aspect.
As in game balance, if such a thing is important:
Not all the characters are crazy overpowered in BG, most of the people is happy to drop Valygar, a kitted ranger, or Minsc, a ranger with an illegal rage ability, to take Sarewok. Some players are also happy to drop Keldorn, with his sword and dispel ability, or Korgan, a proper fighter with shorty bonuses and kit.
Sarewok is OP, with his stats and special attack, that is the reason, the others are just not as OP as him.
A fallen Dorn is not underpowered compared to a Minsc or Valygar, even to Keldorn. Good stats, better than average NPC, well allocated. He is much powerful than a fallen Keldorn. And less powerful than Sarewok or Korgan, but there is a good reason for that, they are Warriors, he is a (fallen) Paladin. And as fallen is not supposed to have bonuses for falling. No other NPC have them.
And the Blackguard kit is OP, poison weapon and all the other things, a charname with Sarewok's stats and Blackguard kit can be crazy powerful. But this don't make a fallen Dorn underpowered, is only no more OP like he was before, no more OP compared to the other NPCs that have fighting capability without being fighters (so without GM), but also not underpowered.
That's because the Old BG never wished you to play evil. To do evil quests was a failure on the old times. The point on those times were to take an evil character inside a good party with the penalty of never let reputation bypass 18 (or the evil character leaves).
This changed on EE now days (a bit at least), but the remnants of the old time are still there: Every evil character is overpowered.
Edwin has an amulet of cheat cheese that give him +2 spell slots for every spell level (i mean, EVERY spell level, including 9° circle).
Viconia is a cleric with 19 Dex, 18 Wis and 65% basic magic resistance
Korgan was a killing machine, the best fighter of SoA, and pretty equivalent to Sarevok, that on old BG, was the last and, again, stupidy powerful evil joinable character.
Among these evil characters, Dorn is normal, and fallen blackguard dorn can't keep his ground, just that.
And also the other new evil NPC, Hexxat, with her natural STR and super stats, goes in the same pool of OP characters.
But in the past you could have evil characters in good party with few incompatibility problems, like Viky and Keldorn, and almost no evil NPC quest was a problem.
Now the Dorn and Hexxat quests are quite problematic for a good Charname, is really difficult to RP them. And in all the quests a reason is given to play evil, money. You have almost every time the choice to ask money, and doing it you loose only a little XP. You are free to be hired by Nalia, for money, save her castle, get the loot and xp, and then slaughter her, the aunt, the captain and the majordomo. Or to save Haer Dalis, for money, then follow him in the planar prison, for adventure and possible loot, and then if you want kill him, but as he is neutral you don't have to. You are RPing an evil one with no problem or real disadvantage.
Now you can have the OP evil characters, with Dorn that is a good replacement for Keldorn in the role of paladin, and RP evil may be better than as you can RP good. You loose only the chance to have Aerie, that can be very strong, but you have Viky for the role.
Is true that fallen blackguard dorn can't keep his ground, but the reason why he fall is not like the ones that can make fall Keldorn or fail Anomen. Keldorn falls if he RP evil, if the rep goes too low. Dorn succeed or fail being evil, he falls because is not enough smart to take the right evil choice. It has nothing to do with RP good or evil. He is evil and overpower, has the chance to become more powerful being evil, and to loose the kit if is not enough smart. If you are not smart you pay for it, only the strong and smart ones deserve a bonus, the weak and stupid deserve a punishment. That is the evil way. Why you want to forgive him, if he fails in his goals, and give him a consolation, like an illegal GM or barbarian bonuses? that would be a good way, the good ones forgive.
Let him fail, and then kill him "you really disappointed me Dorn, with all that talking of getting more power you dare to come here fallen? Now you will feel what the power is, DIE WEAK ONE!".