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Devour Brain working on Mustard Jelly? SPOILER

[Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
edited December 2013 in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
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  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,043
    Try dropping these three files into your override folder. I moved the intelligence draining, display icon, and display string effect over to a spell called mindflay.spl which will be cast upon anyone struck by mindflay.itm *but* the item also has some EFF limitations that make golems, slimes, and the undead immune to the mindflay spell. I tested this by converting mindflay.itm into a dagger, equipped it on the main character, ctrl+q on a golem, attacked a party member--their intelligence dropped by 5 points, showed the icon, and displayed the correct string--then attacked the golem--it suffered no effects other than a little damage. This should stop mind flayers from being able to suck the non-existent brains out of undead, slimes/jellies, and golems. Elementals and extraplanar creatures are still vulnerable but I cannot decide yet whether elementals should be immune.
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Hang on though, surely this is working as intended?
    Minsc is still Minsc even while polymorphed into any form, and thus any attacks that drain intelligence should continue to work on him?
    He obviously maintains his own intelligence when polymorphed into another form otherwise the first thing he would do would be to attack the party
  • GemHoundGemHound Member Posts: 801
    @Southpaw Are you willing to enlighten us lower life forms upon how you can find a brain in a mustard jelly?
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    It really begs the question in my brain (if no where else) what exactly the Mind Flayers are eating. If they actually eat the Brains part of a creature, presumably it is of a given consistency, texture and taste, and therefore should be limited to only those beings who have a similar brain structure to humanoids. Therefore Skeletons (who's intelligence is more magical in nature than any physical material) and jellies (even polymorphed ones) who probably don't have a brain stem or any formal type of recognizable brain matter should be immune.

    However, if said Brain Devourer is actually consuming Intelligence, then sky's the limit and they should be able to (presumably psychically) drain the intelligence of anything with an intelligence rating. owing to the available evidence, I'd suspect that Illithids and their ilk actually suck the IQ, rather than play Hannibal Lechter on passing adventurers.
  • Zzidolfas86Zzidolfas86 Member Posts: 77
    Just more BS workarounds to stop people from using logic to beat an encounter.

    Honestly there are so limited options for beating certain stupid monsters in bg2 that imo makes the game less enjoyable. It is such an amazing game, but stuff like mindflayers do it no justice at all.

    But hey, drinking +int pots like an idiot with chaotic commands up while 6-7 flayers are wailing away at you sounds much more logical than turning into a skeleton to stop a monster from eating brains right? :p
  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742
    Pfmw, CC and mordekainen (which awesomely enough came up on my predictive text!) sword cleared the sewer illithids pretty easily
  • Montresor_SPMontresor_SP Member Posts: 2,208
    I can has a cheese sandwich with mustard?
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    ...and brains!
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 490
    Illithids do not drain the psychic IQ. They devour brains. Creatures without actual brains should be immune to the effect. Of course, they should still take damage from the attempt (those flaying tentacles still rend).

    So Undead, Animated Objects (like Golems), Elementals, Slimes/Jellies/Oozes should be immune to the effect.
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    Your characters recover after a few minutes. I don't think they eat actual brains unless you can grow them back really fast. (I remember the first time I fought a mind flayer, I thought the intelligence drain was permanent so I reloaded until I took no damage from it.)
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 490
    edited December 2013
    Well, the Ecology of the Mind Flayer states quite plainly that they actually extract and devour brains. Now, perhaps they are not actually doing this in the game (and instead are using their powerful psionic blast). It shouldn't be draining Int until death, though. It should instead do a form of Confusion/Domination type of effect...which should not really be blockable by magical protections.

    Regardless, Undead, Animated Objects (including Golems), Elementals, Slimes/Jellies/Oozes should be immune to the psionic blast as well. There simply is no "psionic mind" there to be blasted. It is like trying to hurt air with a sword.

    As for the Int coming back...dunno. I suppose having them being able to PERMANENTLY drain Int would be too much for some to bear, especially in a game where stats are so important to class. Wizards would freak at this, I gather.
  • GamingFreakGamingFreak Member Posts: 639
    nano said:

    Your characters recover after a few minutes. I don't think they eat actual brains unless you can grow them back really fast. (I remember the first time I fought a mind flayer, I thought the intelligence drain was permanent so I reloaded until I took no damage from it.)

    I like to think of it as their physical attacks sort of rattling the victim's brain a bit (draining intelligence) before they break open the victim's head and consume what's within. Viconia at one point during a love-talk mentioned in detail that illithids most definitely enjoy cracking open skulls and eating the victim's brain.
  • XukuthXukuth Member Posts: 78
    nano said:

    Your characters recover after a few minutes. I don't think they eat actual brains unless you can grow them back really fast. (I remember the first time I fought a mind flayer, I thought the intelligence drain was permanent so I reloaded until I took no damage from it.)

    This is just an artifact of the way the game implements Devour Brain - in PnP it's supposed to take something like 1d4 rounds for a Mind Flayer to devour a brain (which is a simulation of the Mind Flayer successfully attaching its tentacles to the victim - once all four attach, the victim is instantly killed). But it's not really feasible to implement that (not to mention that it's not fun to be instantly killed with no real feedback), so it's implemented as a -5 int drain per hit, which - what do you know! - kills pretty much any reasonable character in somewhere between 1 and 4 hits. The intelligence drain wears off pretty quickly because it's just a combat simulation of that grappling time - if you escape without dying, no permanent harm is done. It's not like sucking out a brain is supposed to be a multi-round process.

    (see here for the 2e MM entry)

    It's pretty obvious that Mind Flayers shouldn't be able to drain intelligence from non-brained creatures given that that intelligence drain is actually just a gamey way of simulating them literally removing the brain from a creature.
  • nikkoavnikkoav Member Posts: 9
    Thanks for this fix @Mathsorcerer‌!
    It's definitely obvious that Mind Flayers shouldn't be able to Devour the brains of any creature that doesn't have brains to begin with.
    Their ability is not to drain "psychic energy," or a more subjective sense of intelligence. They literally subdue their victims and then suck the brains right out of their head.

    Every strong enemy has a counter, a viable strategy to throw against them. You're not going to rush your tanks in against a team of Mind Flayers without expecting Minsc or Korgan to end up as a sack of brainless soup after 2 rounds. You're also not going to send in the cavalry when facing a room of vampires. But there are strategies for every type of encounter, and that's part of what makes this game so fun.

    I defeated the Mind Flayers in the sewers with a level ~12ish party on Core difficulty, but it was not enjoyable. I had to resort to resting after every room. The approach that worked for me eventually was to buff CHARNAME (sorc) with CC, then put up PfMW and have him "tank" while the rest of the party attacked at range. This felt horribly cheesy.

    I can't see anything wrong with an adventuring party, upon spotting a group of dreaded Mind Flayers, staying as far away as possible and calling on creatures that are immune to their brain devouring. Things can still go wrong. A flayer can break through the lines and make a rush for the party. A character without CC can get charmed or stunned. There is still a sense of dread when facing them, even with summons that are immune to their abilities. The point is, they are so powerful and deadly to mortal creatures, and that is reflected on the "hands-off" strategy of dealing with them.

    A little Lower Resistance from a comfy distance never hurt either ;-)
  • nikkoavnikkoav Member Posts: 9
    Unfortunately, Minsc in jelly form from the Cloak of Sewers still had his brains eaten :-/
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307
    I refuse to co(ndi)mment on these terrible puns...
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    GamingFreak said:

    nano said:

    Your characters recover after a few minutes. I don't think they eat actual brains unless you can grow them back really fast. (I remember the first time I fought a mind flayer, I thought the intelligence drain was permanent so I reloaded until I took no damage from it.)

    I like to think of it as their physical attacks sort of rattling the victim's brain a bit (draining intelligence) before they break open the victim's head and consume what's within. Viconia at one point during a love-talk mentioned in detail that illithids most definitely enjoy cracking open skulls and eating the victim's brain.
    I personally like to think of it like they are draining off the brain fluid first prior to actually eating the brain. As with lack of oxygen to the brain, a lack of sufficient brain fluid can cause temporary and even permanent brain damage. And it is something that, unmolested, would return pretty quickly. That (to my poor brain) explains the disparity in the attack draining and actually returning.
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    They suck.

    Illithids suck. They suck yer brains out via your nostril.

    They have tentacles on the front of their head, with specialised teeth, to do it...

    No more irrational thoughts that they somehow tap into some spiritual intelligence and sniff it out of you...

    Did they not in fact just suck up all the jelly (that was Minsc) in the manner of 3 year olds tripping on sugar at a birthday party... Ack! The horror this mental image invokes... they started hiding ice-cream behind the cushions for later... never... ever... again... I said... THEN BAM! Another year older and we all forget the HORROR and WHOA! You learn that pull up training pants, trifle, hundreds and thousands and a bad case of upset tummy requires a team of international experts in radiation suits and gas masks to clear the area of fallout...

    *Anduin assumes the 'nam gaze as his mind refocuses on times past, watching fellow Daddies biting the bullet, arms raised to the heavens in despair, as torrential rain falls on the birthday barbecue, with the toy helicopters flying overhead, with strange little people with plastic swords and guns running amok screaming in a foreign tongues*

    ...

    How did I miss this thread!
  • Montresor_SPMontresor_SP Member Posts: 2,208
    Southpaw said:

    Anduin said:

    They suck.

    Illithids suck.

    Whoa, whoa...let's keep this...civilized...
    Yes, this discussion isn't very intelligent.

    :-)
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,754
    Montresor_SP said:

    Southpaw said:

    Anduin said:

    They suck.

    Illithids suck.

    Whoa, whoa...let's keep this...civilized...
    Yes, this discussion isn't very intelligent.

    :-)
    Where's HeroGuy? He will show them justice!
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,582
    the_spyder said:

    It really begs the question in my brain (if no where else) what exactly the Mind Flayers are eating. If they actually eat the Brains part of a creature, presumably it is of a given consistency, texture and taste, and therefore should be limited to only those beings who have a similar brain structure to humanoids. Therefore Skeletons (who's intelligence is more magical in nature than any physical material) and jellies (even polymorphed ones) who probably don't have a brain stem or any formal type of recognizable brain matter should be immune.

    However, if said Brain Devourer is actually consuming Intelligence, then sky's the limit and they should be able to (presumably psychically) drain the intelligence of anything with an intelligence rating. owing to the available evidence, I'd suspect that Illithids and their ilk actually suck the IQ, rather than play Hannibal Lechter on passing adventurers.

    This is exactly what I was thinking (pun NOT intended).
  • CaloNordCaloNord Member Posts: 1,809
    Oh my god so many puns.
    Yea Anduin has it, according to the fluff they just... eat your brain. So game issue that they can eat skeletons? The wiki says they should just blast the be-jesus out of things they can't eat or enslave to do their wicked bidding...
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