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Romance Endings

So I have had a real beef with romance endings for many years now.

Let's start off with my play style. I am almost always a Chaotic Good character (class always changes though), that plays with the standard party (Minsc/Imoen/Jaheira) with 1 or 2 different characters (romance/another), and completes almost all the quests.

My romances are about 75% Aerie. Jaheira bothers me immensely because she is way too quick to jump ship and move to the PC after Khalid's death. I think it would have been more appropriate for her to start closer to ToB than so quickly after the death. But I understand that she can be grieving and the PC can comfort her and those feelings turn... I just don't like it. Viconia is long, brutal, and troublesome. But I like hers when I feel that I want to do that.

Here is my beef. I hate the endings for the romances... all of them. I have the choice to become a God... but I can't take my romance with me? What is this... Hercules (Disney Version). Mystra can have a lover (Elminster) and elevate them to Chosen status (essentially powerful immortals), but I can't take Aerie (or the others) with me? [Why can't I have Sarevok (who eventually turns good, if you choose correctly) become the first Paladin of my order? Or any of the other NPC's do something similar.]

Does anyone else feel this way? I want to get the cake and eat it too. If I become a God, Aerie is coming with me. She is getting her wings back, she is having my child, and she is going to become Immortal (because by that time she is as powerful, if not more so, than Elminster). I've read a lot about that in the Forgotten Realms lore and don't see anything against it.

Now I just need to figure out how to mod my game so this happens both in game (at the end) and in the epilogue, so that I can see it playing out and be satisfied.

/end rant
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Comments

  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,244
    edited December 2013
    Easy answer.
    Important characters can not have ultimate fate, because it would mean that their use in BG3 would be very limited.
    Be happy for the open end and unclear fate, this means that they can return.
  • MitchforkMitchfork Member Posts: 390
    Well Sarevok can't be your Paladin because no class can dual into a Paladin, duh.

    I don't know much about the Forgotten Realms lore regarding such things but I always thought that ascension to godhood would be a huge, life-changing event that fundamentally alters your core perception of the world. It's not like a really big level up, or taking a Dual Class, or anything like that. Your desires and your passions are no longer those of "mere mortals," and your relationships are going to radically changed as well- perhaps even to the point that you are no longer interested in a person that you may have loved as a mortal.

    One thing that bothered me though is part of Viconia's romance... doesn't she say that she wants to be your high priestess after you ascend at some point in the romance? Why this didn't make it into an ending I'll never know. Gods apparently require worship/clergy in this setting, so...
  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,244
    koawinter said:

    I really don't want a BG3 with the same characters...

    BG3 without Misnc and Boo ?
    No thank you.

  • GamingFreakGamingFreak Member Posts: 639
    I would actually only be interested in BG3 if it had mostly new characters only. The story of Gorion's Ward comes to an end with the ending of Throne of Bhaal, and as such his/her companions go their seperate ways. So if BG3 does come out, it should be a clean slate.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited December 2013
    Edvin said:

    koawinter said:

    I really don't want a BG3 with the same characters...

    BG3 without Misnc and Boo ?
    No thank you.

    BG3 with Minsc and Boo?

    No thank you. Some things are enjoyable because they haven't been beaten to death. I think "Boo" and Minsc have had enough references in some of the more current bioware games.
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    Don't worry, Quartz. We're the silent majority.
  • SapphireIce101SapphireIce101 Member Posts: 866
    @Quartz - No, you're not the only one who can enjoy Baldur's Gate without Minsc. In fact, I find Baldur's Gate to be more enjoyable without Minsc.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    edited December 2013
    Maybe Boo with a different owner, A GNOME THIS TIME, MORE MAD GNOMES TO CONQUER THE WOLRD WITH TIAX AND JAN!!!!!!! @Anduin @Quartz GNOMISH INVASION!!!!!
    AAAAAND QUAYLE, THE SMRTER GNOME THIS SIDE THE MOUNTAINS!!!
    THE WORLD WILL GET HALF FEET SMALLER THAN EVER!!!!!
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    @CrevsDaak Bro don't forget Quayle :D
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    @Quartz Quayle, I, I never loved you...!
  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,244
    edited December 2013
    image
    You can not beat Minsc and Boo, even Chuck Norris can not do it.
  • maerduinmaerduin Member Posts: 21
    @koawinter

    I'm not the most impartial judge, but I like the necessary bittersweet ending for PCs involved in romances from a story perspective. Existence is still cruel, not even the gods get to have it all, love is mortal and not eternal, yada yada...

    To my mind, having to choose between immortality and love still puts CHARNAME in a rather enviable position.

    From a FR perspective, maybe there just wasn't enough divine essence to go around? But you're right that the gods seem to be pretty good at breaking rules.
  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,244
    BTW: 18 from 29 BG1 NPC is back in BG2.
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,344

    I would actually only be interested in BG3 if it had mostly new characters only. The story of Gorion's Ward comes to an end with the ending of Throne of Bhaal, and as such his/her companions go their seperate ways. So if BG3 does come out, it should be a clean slate.

    Old debate, but as always I feel completely the opposite way. A BG3 that doesn't let me keep playing "my" charnames the way I left them wouldn't seem very interesting. A clean slate-game where you start at level 1 to go kill goblins and gnolls yet again would feel more like a cop-out.
  • AnprionsaAnprionsa Member Posts: 106
    maerduin said:

    @koawinter

    I'm not the most impartial judge, but I like the necessary bittersweet ending for PCs involved in romances from a story perspective. Existence is still cruel, not even the gods get to have it all, love is mortal and not eternal, yada yada...

    To my mind, having to choose between immortality and love still puts CHARNAME in a rather enviable position.

    From a FR perspective, maybe there just wasn't enough divine essence to go around? But you're right that the gods seem to be pretty good at breaking rules.

    See I would rather have it be eternal. In this game I can be a GOD. I was a mortal, but that doesn't mean I can't have it both ways. TBH, the real reason I think it was put there is because developers hardly make a true "you won it all" ending. Especially Bioware (as we all know). This is one of the reasons (if I could) I would mod my game to never have to think about it again. And it would be canon, in my own world.

    As for BG3. With Aerie the PC has a son and a daughter, I mean... you going to take them away just create a story? For what purpose? That may work, but you can't get much higher in levels (unless it's taken away). Have it be about something else (especially if there is a small essence in the child!)
  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,244

    But only, like, 5 of those were playable and the rest were horrendous OOC cameos that would have been better had they never occurred.

    8 is playable ( 3 are new )
    And I'm grateful for at least a brief return of amazing characters, as was Tiax.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,393
    Shin said:

    I would actually only be interested in BG3 if it had mostly new characters only. The story of Gorion's Ward comes to an end with the ending of Throne of Bhaal, and as such his/her companions go their seperate ways. So if BG3 does come out, it should be a clean slate.

    Old debate, but as always I feel completely the opposite way. A BG3 that doesn't let me keep playing "my" charnames the way I left them wouldn't seem very interesting. A clean slate-game where you start at level 1 to go kill goblins and gnolls yet again would feel more like a cop-out.
    I thought ToB, shoot, even the end of SOA; was getting to be so stupid high level it wasn't even very fun anymore. I would much rather start over battling goblins and orcs. I always like those first few levels best anyway.
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,344
    atcDave said:

    Shin said:

    I would actually only be interested in BG3 if it had mostly new characters only. The story of Gorion's Ward comes to an end with the ending of Throne of Bhaal, and as such his/her companions go their seperate ways. So if BG3 does come out, it should be a clean slate.

    Old debate, but as always I feel completely the opposite way. A BG3 that doesn't let me keep playing "my" charnames the way I left them wouldn't seem very interesting. A clean slate-game where you start at level 1 to go kill goblins and gnolls yet again would feel more like a cop-out.
    I thought ToB, shoot, even the end of SOA; was getting to be so stupid high level it wasn't even very fun anymore. I would much rather start over battling goblins and orcs. I always like those first few levels best anyway.
    While I find the first levels fun as well, the real draw for me is the scope of the game, knowing I can start from scratch in Candlekeep and take my character all the way to th level 40ish endgame in ToB.
    Also, while I agree the D&D mechanics aren't all that well adapted to endgame play when various bonuses start stacking up so much that the d20 roll starts becoming irrelevant, there's a lot to be said for the mid and late game where more layers of combat options and tactics open up and battles become more about strategy and less about the luck of the roll. Combat during the first couple of levels mostly seems to be about having a well-armoured tank and hoping you're not unlucky and get insta-killed.

    Whenever I create a new character I also find myself thinking "how will this build handle in the middle and late game?" rather than "how will it handle in the first 6-7 levels?". While playing through BG1 I look forward to taking the character through SoA and ToB, and see how it develops. For similar reasons I never really play one of the games without playing the other two in sequence - it just isn't as involving.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    edited December 2013
    < Things even I disagree >
    BG3 should be Planescape so we can get Keldorn back cuz' Charname is like the Transcendent One and he likes wrecking thingies, so we can add all the MAD GNOMES we want, all the instakillinig Beholder Paladins and all that mad stuff we love from BG, 1 & 2.
    < / Things even I disagree >
    I really hope they make BG3, no matter what, but please, add Boo somewhere, just a Groundhog named Boo in a forest with other things and you'll go without seeing him.
  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,244
    CrevsDaak said:


    I really hope they make BG3, no matter what, but please, add Boo somewhere, just a Groundhog named Boo in a forest with other things and you'll go without seeing him.

    image
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    I believe the real reason is that Charname wanted to get it on with the Solar.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    koawinter said:

    See I would rather have it be eternal. In this game I can be a GOD. I was a mortal, but that doesn't mean I can't have it both ways. TBH, the real reason I think it was put there is because developers hardly make a true "you won it all" ending. Especially Bioware (as we all know). This is one of the reasons (if I could) I would mod my game to never have to think about it again. And it would be canon, in my own world.

    You're not Mystra, though. If you ascend, you're basically the deity equivalent of a newborn - no worship, no portfolio. You might gain these things over time, but you can't go around interfering with the mortal realm twenty minutes after becoming a god.
    koawinter said:

    As for BG3. With Aerie the PC has a son and a daughter, I mean... you going to take them away just create a story? For what purpose? That may work, but you can't get much higher in levels (unless it's taken away). Have it be about something else (especially if there is a small essence in the child!)

    Sure, it works great if your PC is male and romanced Aerie. Not everyone made that choice, though, and why should their RP decisions be "less canon" (as if there's such a thing in multi-path RPGs) than yours?

    The only logic needed for the argument that BG3 should have nothing to do with the Bhaalspawn is that if you can't honor everyone's choices equally (as, indeed, WotC itself has failed to do), you need to leave it open and do something else instead. That's how they resolved the Darth Revan storyline in KOTOR2, and that's what needs to be done here.
  • AnprionsaAnprionsa Member Posts: 106
    shawne said:

    koawinter said:

    See I would rather have it be eternal. In this game I can be a GOD. I was a mortal, but that doesn't mean I can't have it both ways. TBH, the real reason I think it was put there is because developers hardly make a true "you won it all" ending. Especially Bioware (as we all know). This is one of the reasons (if I could) I would mod my game to never have to think about it again. And it would be canon, in my own world.

    You're not Mystra, though. If you ascend, you're basically the deity equivalent of a newborn - no worship, no portfolio. You might gain these things over time, but you can't go around interfering with the mortal realm twenty minutes after becoming a god.
    koawinter said:

    As for BG3. With Aerie the PC has a son and a daughter, I mean... you going to take them away just create a story? For what purpose? That may work, but you can't get much higher in levels (unless it's taken away). Have it be about something else (especially if there is a small essence in the child!)

    Sure, it works great if your PC is male and romanced Aerie. Not everyone made that choice, though, and why should their RP decisions be "less canon" (as if there's such a thing in multi-path RPGs) than yours?

    The only logic needed for the argument that BG3 should have nothing to do with the Bhaalspawn is that if you can't honor everyone's choices equally (as, indeed, WotC itself has failed to do), you need to leave it open and do something else instead. That's how they resolved the Darth Revan storyline in KOTOR2, and that's what needs to be done here.
    See, that's why I said canonical for me. I just don't like having to choose between something that didn't need to be a choice. Which is why I still hold out hope that someone can enlighten me on how to change the game so that way when I play I can play the way I think it should be. :)

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    What about Tiax's cousin or someone else from his family? (Tiax dies in Spellhold in BG2:SoA).
    Jan Jansen has a big family indeed, so we can get some of his family in BG3.
    And, we can say "someone" had a son with Aerie, and he is a Half-elven jerk who will try to kill us in the middle of the game!
  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,244
    CrevsDaak said:

    What about Tiax's cousin or someone else from his family?

    Romanceable Tiax's sister... no, Tiax's BIG sister !
    The only thing that really scared Tiax.
  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    id like new characters but id still like to see maybe one or two cameos in some form I don't think they should play major roles but would still be nice to see some familiar faces

    for instance it would be pretty cool if you could find in game books chronicling the adventures of minsc and boo

  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    Odd references in the forms of books/lore are fine, and honestly it wouldn't be that odd to have cameos from some of the characters from longer-lived races, like the elves. We have to remember that any BG3 is 98%-likely to be happening in contemporary Faerun, which is something like 100 years after BG2, since WotC will (in all likelihood) require it to use the latest edition of DnD (which will almost certainly be 5th/NEXT).
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